How I would change Star Wars

[Haruhi]

So what? I can't believe I am doing this, but go and watch the Nostalgia Critic's video on nitpicking (*sigh*). The seemingly inefficient behavior of blasters is hardly relevant to the quality of Star Wars as a movie, nor even the worst flaw in the narrative. Hell, its not even valid-- blaster bolts don't move at just one speed throughout the films. And besides which, at their slowest they move at a similar speed to an arrow shot from a bow. Can you dodge an arrow? Please don't actually try this. Arrows were used for as long as they were for a particularly deadly reason. And that's before we consider all the advantages they might have over slugthrowers, like the fact often cited in the extended universe that physical slugs weigh more than power packs and take up more room. Hell, at least in Star Wars it makes sense that you never see anyone need to reload, unlike many action movies where real guns that should need reloading never seem to empty.

Blasters exist because lazor beams are futoristic and kool... and because its a family movie. That guns are more realistic is precisely why they weren't used. They have too many darker connotations in real life that some families are uncomfortable exposing their kids to. And when you need them to be more gruesome for dramatic effect, you can change things up by having someone catch fire like General Grevious or Uncle Owen and Aunt Bereu.

It is true that the inefficient behavior of blasters is hardly relevant to the quality of Star Wars as a movie, but I'm dealing with technical details or the powers of this saga, not story. Blasters are still generally slower than real firearms, which bothers me in a futuristic world. Star Wars would be less familiar and more darker.

[lPeregrine]

It is true that the inefficient behavior of blasters is hardly relevant to the quality of Star Wars as a movie, but I'm dealing with technical details or the powers of this saga, not story.

But if you're not dealing with the story then who cares? Star Wars, like most other fiction, exists to be an enjoyable story, not to win "most powerful universe" debates. Turning the Jedi into superman and making blasters shoot faster adds nothing to the story.

Blasters are still generally slower than real firearms, which bothers me in a futuristic world.

So what? Having blaster bolts move slow enough to be visible is aesthetically appealing. Making them move fast enough to be invisible adds nothing to the story unless you're one of the tiny minority of fans who care more about winning debates than watching movies.

Star Wars would be less familiar and more darker.

So the solution to making Star Wars less familiar is to make blasters act like real-world guns?

The resources are not in the movies, but they are in the EU, as listed in the links.

Only because you're quoting "EU" sources like a random article from an RPG magazine.

The Jedi/Sith are warriors.

In the same way that the classic knight who becomes king is still a warrior. That doesn't change the fact that the place of the Jedi/Sith in the story is clearly as leaders and diplomats, not gods of combat who slaughter everything in their path.

This is silly, because the marksmanship has to be just as good regardless of the targets. The heroes have to overcome difficulties on their own, not because the villains have bad marksmanship.

Sigh. This is universal in fiction. If you have weapons capable of killing easily with a single shot (guns, blasters, even bows) then anyone shooting at a main character will miss unless the character has to be wounded/killed for plot reasons. Fortunately most people have this thing called suspension of disbelief that lets them enjoy the story anyway.

The stormtroopers are still part of the worst soldiers of all fiction.

Again, go watch the opening of ANH. The stormtroopers attack right into a prepared ambush, gun down the rebel defenders (while not even hesitating when they suffer casualties), and send the survivors running. They only suffer from horrible accuracy when shooting at the main characters, and we've already explained why that happens and that it isn't something unique to stormtroopers.

What you need to remember is that the whole "stormtrooper accuracy" thing was a joke.

[Formless]

Star Wars would be less familiar and more darker.

Yeah, and that's why no one likes your suggestions. They would really like to keep their Warhammer 40K out of their Star Wars, thanks. Remember that the movies from that year when the first Star Wars came out were considered refreshing precisely because they were more fun and less jaded than many from years prior after Vietnam.

Also, your suggestions that Jedi should be more like Superheros just doesn't fit the themes of the narrative; the Jedi are peacekeepers, not warriors. Luke redeems his father, despite being told point blank it can't be done. The Jedi who still clung to the warrior past like Mace Windu and to a lesser extent Yoda only made a bad situation FUBAR. The last Sith master finally achieves, for a few decades, what so many before him failed to do by focusing on seduction, manipulation, and politics; whereas every apprentice he brought on as an enforcer got brutally killed in a lightsaber duel, as per their master's plan. Everything shows that more subtlety and less resorting to force is what the Jedi needed throughout the story.

There are comics I could recommend to you that take place in Star Wars' distant past that explain the origins of the Sith and Jedi (I forgot what they are called, sorry) and they have a feel more like what you want if with somewhat less fantastically powerful force users. Well, there is Exar Kun, but even he couldn't level a city all by himself. That's for the help. But honestly as much as I have always wanted to read them the whole appeal is that they are different from the "modern era" Star Wars, while still being connected to it.

[Spoonist]

The stormtroopers are still part of the worst soldiers of all fiction.

Nope. It seems to me you haven't paid attention to what happens when non-hero rebels face stormtroopers, they lose. So even in universe there are lots of "worse" examples. And you can easily find other scifi with similar slow weapons and worse tactics.
It seems you are trying too hard to fit a square peg in a round hole.

No need to show those ten examples to prove the incompetence of the stormtroopers.

This trope is ubiquitous to action movies and the 10 top 10 excercise is to show this. Which means that you are missing the point. If almost all movies contain the trope, then you have to show why this specific instance is worse than average.

[Metahive]

Actually just because a trope is ubiquitous doesn't mean it's a good trope. I'd like if heroes had to be more conscious about avoiding enemy fire or be seeking cover more often than being seemingly aware of having thick plot shields. Yeah, I'd rather have my heroes be smart than "manly".

As for Star War specifically, bleh. It's not one of the major factors that impair the quality of the movies. The stormtroopers are just the usual heroic cannon fodder, just like Nazi grunts in any WW2 movie. Can't change that without changing the overall tone of the whole series. Then again, Star Wars that's more like Saving Private Ryan? I could warm up to that.

[Haruhi]

Star Wars, like most other fiction, exists to be an enjoyable story, not to win "most powerful universe" debates. Turning the Jedi into superman and making blasters shoot faster adds nothing to the story.

In action video games is usually more important the fighting than the story.

Having blaster bolts move slow enough to be visible is aesthetically appealing. Making them move fast enough to be invisible adds nothing to the story unless you're one of the tiny minority of fans who care more about winning debates than watching movies.

Our tastes differ.

In the same way that the classic knight who becomes king is still a warrior. That doesn't change the fact that the place of the Jedi/Sith in the story is clearly as leaders and diplomats, not gods of combat who slaughter everything in their path.

There eras in that Jedi were warriors if they would bring peace.

This is universal in fiction. If you have weapons capable of killing easily with a single shot (guns, blasters, even bows) then anyone shooting at a main character will miss unless the character has to be wounded/killed for plot reasons. Fortunately most people have this thing called suspension of disbelief that lets them enjoy the story anyway.

That is universal trope not mean you have to keep it, as has written Metahive. I still believe that the stormtroopers are very bad soldiers: their marksmanship is bad against the heroes, as these could cover it better, their helmets decrease vision, their weapons are very slow, etc.

Yeah, and that's why no one likes your suggestions. They would really like to keep their Warhammer 40K out of their Star Wars, thanks. Remember that the movies from that year when the first Star Wars came out were considered refreshing precisely because they were more fun and less jaded than many from years prior after Vietnam.

Times change. The Star Wars novel Death Troopers is horror novel.

Also, your suggestions that Jedi should be more like Superheros just doesn't fit the themes of the narrative; the Jedi are peacekeepers, not warriors.

This does not fit with the era of the movies, but it fits with other eras.

[Formless]

Actually just because a trope is ubiquitous doesn't mean it's a good trope. I'd like if heroes had to be more conscious about avoiding enemy fire or be seeking cover more often than being seemingly aware of having thick plot shields. Yeah, I'd rather have my heroes be smart than "manly".

Okay, NO.

This is the problem with calling it a "trope", and reason numero uno I wish a certain wiki would just fucking die already. It makes the truly universal rules of good storytelling appear like they are optional. This one is one of those that isn't.

Your logic only works in fistfights, where taking a gutshot isn't going to kill someone. Gunshots, puncture wounds (especially back in the days of gangrene), serious burns, and blast injuries are all really goddamn deadly, and no matter how much an audience can suspend disbelief its nearly impossible to convince someone that a shot to the center mass isn't going to be fatal. Unless you are a trained Jedi with a lightsaber or Neo from the matrix, taking cover or wearing armor are basically the ONLY things you can do to avoid or survive getting shot. Even then any time you try to stick your head up there should be a random chance of getting hit in the face, if you want to be realistic about it. And guess what? Star Wars characters all constantly take cover unless they are trained Jedi for reasons established in the first training session of the first movie ever released.

So what do you want? That's all you can reasonably ask for. Plot protection only lasts until the writer deems it time for someone to die or go to the hospital, and if the events are unpredictable enough you still have tension. That's why no one will ever accuse the lightsaber duels of this same problem, because we know that dramatically a lightsaber duel will end with one or more of the fighters getting maimed or killed. But even despite that, on first viewing, I didn't know if the characters were truly immune during all those shootouts and dogfights. I bet no one did. Why?

First movie, the good guys get cornered in the detention center, and only escape through quick wit. Then the old man gets cut down right in front of them by Vader. Later R2 takes a direct hit from Vader's fucking Tie fighter in a dogfight. Watching Empire, the first few scenes on Hoth show Luke getting knocked out by a space bear and taken to its cave to be eaten, so we can ignore what happened to Mark Hamil's face. In Jedi, the sail barge scene is full of things like Luke getting hit in the prosthetic, or Lando nearly getting devoured by the sand monster. Later Leia actually gets hit during a "normal" shootout, the troopers have them dead to rights, and for a second it looks like they will be taken prisoner. Hell, even in Clones, the movie I hate the most, they pull off a perfect fakeout in act 1 scene 1 when Padme's body double gets blown up in an assassination attempt. I suspect that claims of the characters "knowing they have plot shields" or of stormtroopers being terrible marksmen are a byproduct of hindsight bias and rewatching the same movies over and over, until its "obvious" that the characters won't die to an extra because that's not how the movies were structured. They really don't know that at all, and the movie keeps the suspense high enough to create the illusion without ruining the camp atmosphere it was going for. Its not like a Schwarzenegger movie where he can just stand out in the open with a machinegun blaring and still not get hit.

[Formless]

Times change. The Star Wars novel Death Troopers is horror novel.

And that's the EU. Ask around and you will find many people around here who won't touch that shit, and many more who once liked it feel it went downhill fast at some point. They aren't in the same category as the main movies. It is meant to be cherrypicked, if you will, for the bits that you like while ignoring the bits that you don't.

This does not fit with the era of the movies, but it fits with other eras.

Its a matter of taste, though. Indeed, its one of the reasons that many people dislike the EU, especially after Return of the Jedi. Arguably, the Jedi backslide and Luke seems to forget most of the lessons he learned in that movie.

[Spoonist]

Actually just because a trope is ubiquitous doesn't mean it's a good trope.

Don't know about that. Most popcorn movies shouldn't be too realistic or they would spoil their own universe. Bond being the obvious example, but almost all action movies have this. And Star Wars definately was aiming for the campy popcorn genre.
It would be quite devastating to the action genre if everyone would do a GRRM SOIAF style kill off every now and then. Storytelling in moviescripts would definately have to be different since you'd have to build up multiple main characters and then knock them off. Instead of just adding red shirts like most do.

I'd like if heroes had to be more conscious about avoiding enemy fire or be seeking cover more often than being seemingly aware of having thick plot shields. Yeah, I'd rather have my heroes be smart than "manly".

Its a problem when a movie fails to build suspension. But I'd say that one of the successes of the first IV-VI SW was that people did feel the suspension regardless.

As for Star War specifically, bleh. It's not one of the major factors that impair the quality of the movies. The stormtroopers are just the usual heroic cannon fodder, just like Nazi grunts in any WW2 movie. Can't change that without changing the overall tone of the whole series. Then again, Star Wars that's more like Saving Private Ryan? I could warm up to that.

I much more liked the feel of Empire Strikes Back due to the dirt and grittiness. But it was still a campy - the heroes goes on kinda deal, it didn't break the format.
Adding a private ryan level would remove the princess, the pirate, the wizard and the knight feeling. Something which is copied and cloned in lots of later successful films for new generations.
So I'm in Formless' corner here. Some things resonate with us as human beings when a storyline follows the template.
It takes a lot of skill, money and mostly a serialization to make the transition of main characters like they do in GoT and Walking Dead for instance. You couldn't do that in a single movie format since the knocked off characters would feel like red shirts.

[Metahive]

Star Wars isn't actually the worst offender when it comes to this trope, Force sensitive characters still have to whack away plenty of blaster shots indicating that they were actually accurately aimed and none- Force sensitives do seek cover occasionally.

Don't know about that. Most popcorn movies shouldn't be too realistic or they would spoil their own universe. Bond being the obvious example, but almost all action movies have this. And Star Wars definately was aiming for the campy popcorn genre.
It would be quite devastating to the action genre if everyone would do a GRRM SOIAF style kill off every now and then. Storytelling in moviescripts would definately have to be different since you'd have to build up multiple main characters and then knock them off. Instead of just adding red shirts like most do.

I actually don't care for "popcorn movies", AKA cinematic junkfood that nourishes you superficially, leaves a vague feeling of emptiness and is forgotten two days later. I think SW, even the PT is better than that. nuTrek meanwhile...

Its a problem when a movie fails to build suspension. But I'd say that one of the successes of the first IV-VI SW was that people did feel the suspension regardless.

In SW, especially in ESB the heroes are in actual danger, they aren't invincible Mary Sues, with or without the Stormtrooper's shitty aim.

Adding a private ryan level would remove the princess, the pirate, the wizard and the knight feeling. Something which is copied and cloned in lots of later successful films for new generations.

You can have wizards, knights and princesses and grim and gritty. I don't see why one would exclude the other. Grim and gritty would actually fit SW quite well since, in the very first movie, it contains an act of planetary genocide that puts the Holocaust to shame as well as burnt out corpses of people we at least came to know semi-well. Sorry, you can't have such elements and then tell me to my face that SW is going for camp.

[Lurks-no-More]

All I can say is "Thank God Haruhi has no influence whatsoever on Star Wars."

Really, it's rare to see such a pure case of missing the point from someone who's ostensibly a fan.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The clone troopers do rather well when storming the Jedi Temple. Just sayin'

[TOSDOC]

Ummm, did Haruhi watch the movies? In SW V-VI alone, three of the main characters are shot by stormtroopers. That's nearly half the cast listed on the movie poster.

[Haruhi]

The suggestion of the stormtroopers is subject to the other suggestions on the Jedi and Sith, which are a matter of different preferences.

[lPeregrine]

In action video games is usually more important the fighting than the story.

Who cares about the video games? If you're making choices about your movie based on how you want the video game to work you're an idiot. If you aren't an idiot you make a good movie and then you allow the video game to change things if necessary.

And if you're intending these suggestions to be about the Star Wars video games and not the movies then you need to say so.

That is universal trope not mean you have to keep it, as has written Metahive. I still believe that the stormtroopers are very bad soldiers: their marksmanship is bad against the heroes, as these could cover it better, their helmets decrease vision, their weapons are very slow, etc.

Again, watch the damn movies. The very first time we see stormtroopers they assault directly into a prepared ambush and quickly overwhelm the defenders, killing plenty of them. Stormtroopers only have poor accuracy when shooting at main characters, and we've already been over why this is near-universal in fiction and why complaining about it happening in Star Wars is stupid.

[Lord Revan]

When it comes down it dispite the jokes made about Stormtrooper accuracity it's actually no worse then what you'd expect from modern soldiers and then there's the fact that Cloud City and possibly Death Star 1 as well were harassing and funneling operations not eliminate at all costs ops.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Heck, their accuracy is better than the good guy rebels. We see, what, two dead stormies after the boarding action in ANH? How many targets do the elite Rebel commandos take out on Endor? None that I can recall.

And to expand on the "Imperial forces are rubbish" crap, those mere six TIE's launched over the DS1 sure did vape a lot of X and Y Wings. And the forces at Endor were doing a damn fine job in space.

[Metahive]

Again, watch the damn movies. The very first time we see stormtroopers they assault directly into a prepared ambush and quickly overwhelm the defenders, killing plenty of them. Stormtroopers only have poor accuracy when shooting at main characters, and we've already been over why this is near-universal in fiction and why complaining about it happening in Star Wars is stupid.

Leia's defenders are fat, middle-aged, men armed with pistols (that's the "elite" of the Alliance? I'd say it's at most a honor guard staffed by retired servicemen) with barely any cover and yet the stormtroopers use an approach that's bound to cause them casualties. Never heard of flashbangs or tear gas grenades or something like that? Or heck, shooting at the security detail from cover themselves? Nope, it's a fish in a barrel bum rush attack! Sorry, I can't think of them as competent when a 20th century Earth SWAT team would have done a better job.

[Haruhi]

And if you're intending these suggestions to be about the Star Wars video games and not the movies then you need to say so.

This, I had mentioned to Jedi Outcast, Jedi Academy and Advent Rising, so I focused Star Wars video games.

[Metahive]

So you basically want games where you play a completely invincible Mary Sue? If you want your power fantasies that badly play DmC3 or Bayonetta and get some goddamn, fucking skills! Hell, isn't Force Unleashed just tailor-made for you?

[Formless]

Leia's defenders are fat, middle-aged, men armed with pistols (that's the "elite" of the Alliance? I'd say it's at most a honor guard staffed by retired servicemen) with barely any cover and yet the stormtroopers use an approach that's bound to cause them casualties. Never heard of flashbangs or tear gas grenades or something like that? Or heck, shooting at the security detail from cover themselves? Nope, it's a fish in a barrel bum rush attack! Sorry, I can't think of them as competent when a 20th century Earth SWAT team would have done a better job.

Dumbfuck, what do you think a flashbang or a tear gas grenade is going to do against someone wearing a suit of armor that is designed to double as a space suit? Make them laugh? Give Vader a grin? They got into the ship by blowing a goddamn smoking hole into it with real explosives! It was white hot even as they walked through it! Are you just posting shit for the sake of posting shit, or are you really this dense?

I'm putting my money on "dense," for the record. I know who I'm talking to this time.

[Metahive]

I'm creating an omelet out of all the eggs on Formless' face since the troops that are defending Leia in the beginning of ANH are clearly not wearing any facial coverings! Fuck you even quoted the part where I was clearly referring to LEIA'S DEFENDERS from the beginning of ANH and how the Stormtroopers should have used better tactics against them!



Yeah, totally immune to tear gas and flashbangs, you formless, brainless, eyeless moron!

[Formless]

Okay, my bad. I misread that. Still, you do not have to be a hyper aggressive prick about an obvious honest mistake. Jackass. No one has the right to post gigantic moderator red text just because they are mildly annoyed. Why do you think I hate you like a boil on my dick? It does not improve the quality of discussion on any forum.

Edit: also, the point wasn't about their tactical competence. It was about their marksmanship. Which was fine in that scene and many others. I guess I am not the only one with reading difficulties.

[Metahive]

Still, you do not have to be a hyper aggressive prick about an obvious honest mistake.

Dumbfuck, what do you think a flashbang or a tear gas grenade is going to do against someone wearing a suit of armor that is designed to double as a space suit? Make them laugh? Give Vader a grin? They got into the ship by blowing a goddamn smoking hole into it with real explosives! It was white hot even as they walked through it! Are you just posting shit for the sake of posting shit, or are you really this dense?

I'm putting my money on "dense," for the record. I know who I'm talking to this time.

Your bed, lie in nit.

Why do you think I hate your guts?

Frankly, dear, I don't give a damn.

[Formless]

Yeah, and? I genuinely thought you were being an idiot, so I called out. You on the other hand are being a rude motherfucker about an honest mistake. That's why no one can stand you for more than five minutes. Just take my suggestion: buy a crate full of chill pills. The board's motto wasn't intended to mean "take out your anger issues on random threads".