Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

[PREDATOR490]

My major concern wavers between the new movies simply copying what has been done before or deviating so much it will cause a complete disconnect.
The technology is a major thing here, in a galaxy where you can build a Death Star in months or zip across the galaxy in hours... it will not be amusing if they choose to ignore the implications of what they are actually depicting.

Wouldn't mind the Jedi / Sith wanking to be toned down as well, filling the screen with stupidly long lightsabers scenes is not cool and only leads to bullshit like ROTS.

[Purple]

Or alternatively they could just give the crowds what they think the crowds want. Meaning more lightsaber flashing, more space battles with loads of explosions and even less intelligence.

[Batman]

Seems to have worked with the PT. I mean yeah, a lot of people (myself included) didn't like it, but look at the box office numbers.

As for the Sith/Jedi wank, compared to what happened in the literary EU, the PT (or the Clone Wars cartoons) were actually pretty timid.

[Borgholio]

According to the article, that's what they're most likely doing. You can do scenic, backdrop, and test shots without the cast.

[Grumman]

Then again, I do sometimes wonder if we (the fans) put the OT on a higher pedestal than they might otherwise deserve. They are certainly excellent films, but there does seem to be an element of "they're so awesome because they're the original Star Wars."

I don't think they are - I mean, people are already pretty willing to admit that half of Return of the Jedi wasn't up to the level of the rest of the trilogy, so it's hardly as if people are treating the OT as some unimpeachable idol.

[Scrib]

Or alternatively they could just give the crowds what they think the crowds want. Meaning more lightsaber flashing, more space battles with loads of explosions and even less intelligence.

I personally like lightsaber fights. They're cool and make use of a great weapon. I was thinking about this the other day, the lightsaber is one of my favorite weapons both because of how cool it is and how elegant and simple it is from a meta perspective. Simple,easy way to create intimate battles and it cuts through everything. What more could you want? Pew Pew in space?

But back on topic:I don't know how much intelligence they need to be honest. I definitely think the intelligence of the original (which was a rescue the princess story for the longest time) could be maintained without also sacrificing the action that we can and should get now that we have modern tech.

Really, the PT story wasn't that dumb. Well, it was dumb but it wasn't stupid. It just had a lot of shit that didn't hit as hard as the simpler stories of the OT.

[Tribble]

I think the thing that upset people about the prequels was they had the potential to be great films. I mean, what bigger story can there be in Star Wars than the fall of Anakin Skywalker?

What a wasted opportunity that was. I mean no offence, but the Anakin I saw in the films did not remotely match up with what I had in my head going into them. I always figured that Anakin was a really great guy and his fall was a terrible tragedy. The Anakin I saw on screen was an asshole, and if there is a tragedy, its how the other characters were too stupid to see it coming.

Maybe Disney will pull off something better, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Lord Revan]

the hype or legend is really the main problem here, unlike Star Trek where the hype was mostly killed off by Nemesis and Enterprise (the series that is), the Hype for Star Wars is still very much alive, so we're comparing the new movies the nostalgic image we have of the original trilogy (or even the special edition) not the actual films and no film made by mortals can ever match that nostalgic image it's just not possible.

[Havok]

What a wasted opportunity that was. I mean no offence, but the Anakin I saw in the films did not remotely match up with what I had in my head going into them. I always figured that Anakin was a really great guy and his fall was a terrible tragedy. The Anakin I saw on screen was an asshole, and if there is a tragedy, its how the other characters were too stupid to see it coming.

When was he an asshole?
When he was being an amazing kid in The Phantom Menace? Going through puberty and dealing with his mother's death in Attack of the Clones? Or when the Jedi were asking him to be their hero yet asking him to turn on the person he trusted most all while telling him, hey dude, don't worry if your wife dies, just let go in Revenge of the Sith?

Why do I always feel like I payed attention to the movies while everyone else just looked at the screen.

[Metahive]

I don't know, but murdering children and your former trusting allies and helping a guy who's revealed himself as a power-hungry and deceitful evil sorceror who unleashed a war that killed millions for pure personal gain to turn the Republic into an oppressive dictatorship just for the vague promise of saving your wife is kind of asshole-ish not to speak really, really dumb.

[Scrib]

What a wasted opportunity that was. I mean no offence, but the Anakin I saw in the films did not remotely match up with what I had in my head going into them. I always figured that Anakin was a really great guy and his fall was a terrible tragedy. The Anakin I saw on screen was an asshole, and if there is a tragedy, its how the other characters were too stupid to see it coming.

When was he an asshole?
When he was being an amazing kid in The Phantom Menace? Going through puberty and dealing with his mother's death in Attack of the Clones? Or when the Jedi were asking him to be their hero yet asking him to turn on the person he trusted most all while telling him, hey dude, don't worry if your wife dies, just let go in Revenge of the Sith?

Why do I always feel like I payed attention to the movies while everyone else just looked at the screen.

Anakin was "whiny" (like a lot of kids) and not like the idealized hero people thought of therefore asshole. It's unbecoming of a hero to do shit like that.

But at least Tribble is honest and just outright admits that he came up with some version of Anakin in his head and fuck everything else. This is part of my problem with a lot of reviews. It's theoretically about the story structure but more: this is how I saw the previews in the 90s and how Lucas should do it. It may be better, but I'd rather hear how the current story failed or could be made workable.

I don't know, but murdering children and your former trusting allies and helping a guy who's revealed himself as a power-hungry and deceitful evil sorceror who unleashed a war that killed millions for pure personal gain to turn the Republic into an oppressive dictatorship just for the vague promise of saving your wife is kind of asshole-ish not to speak really, really dumb.

Right. So the last thirty minutes of a nine hour trilogy?

[Metahive]

Havok asked "when" Anakin was being an asshole and this is when. Does it matter that it happens at the tail-end of the PT? I don't think so because what he does is quite unforgivably asshole-ish.

[Scrib]

Havok asked "when" Anakin was being an asshole and this is when. Does it matter that it happens at the tail-end of the PT? I don't think so because what he does is quite unforgivably asshole-ish.

Yes. It does. Because Darth Vader is unforgivably assholeish. That's what happens when you're the bad guy. Now, did he need to kill youngsters? Nope. But hey, dark side corrupts. It's kinda the point no?

But hey, I assumed that Tribble was talking about the entire trilogy in general like a lot of fans from beginning to end and in that case pulling out a case of him being an asshole the one period he SHOULD be one seems a bit thin. Especially since he said that he thought pre-Fall Anakin was awesome making his fall a tragedy. How do you then use post-Fall Anakin?

[Metahive]

Yes. It does. Because Darth Vader is unforgivably assholeish. That's what happens when you're the bad guy. Now, did he need to kill youngsters? Nope. But hey, dark side corrupts. It's kinda the point no?

Anakin and Vader are not two different people, they're the same person. The Dark Side isn't demonic possession. Anakin made the choice to betray his allies, throw everything away he believed in and murder children by his own free will all for promises from a guy he had several first-hand evidence of being completely untrustworthy. That's what makes him not only a villain but a stupid asshole as well.

Was he he an asshole before that? Maybe not, just unsympathetic and unlikable in my opinion and his "fall" therefore something that lacked tragedy. Contrast !Movie-Anakin with !Clone Wars-Anakin who's actually written as a sympathetic character with believable motives that could be exploited by a cunning to tempter to lead to his fall and it becomes all the more glaring. The latter is a guy I would feel bad about becoming a villain, the former not so much.

[Grumman]

Anakin as envisioned by Lucas should never have got as far as he did. For example, Amidala is an idealistic Senator while just during AotC Anakin shows himself to be openly abrasive, a fascist and a war criminal. Surely someone like Amidala would consider "murders children in a blind rage" a turn-off?

[Purple]

Anakin as envisioned by Lucas should never have got as far as he did. For example, Amidala is an idealistic Senator while just during AotC Anakin shows himself to be openly abrasive, a fascist and a war criminal. Surely someone like Amidala would consider "murders children in a blind rage" a turn-off?

Honestly I think that whole love affair is more of a pathological issue than a romantic one. As in, it's not so so much true love as it is Romeo and Juliet. Think about it.
We have a teenaged queen who was thrust into a very traumatic conflict and had to grow up really fast. During this time she was saved not once but twice by the same magically gifted kid and two resident superheroes. After that she joined politics which in the republic obviously means backstabbing and corruption more than anything else. And the only people she can really trust any more are her personal entourage, Palpatine (the irony) and the people who saved her. She would have learned to compromise her ideals to get the job done. And now she has just been pushed into yet another massively traumatic conflict with no end in sight. Her life is once again in danger and once again the superheroes that saved her the first time round came to her rescue. Meanwhile the kid has grown up into a reasonably attractive (he ain't pretty but than again neither is her hair) young man with magical powers.

And let's pause here and look at those magical powers for a second. Because that's what they are. You see, looking at the PT I always got the feeling that the Jedy are the in universe equivalent of the Justice League. As in they are few, have superpowers and maintain the order and justice. The average man knows they exist and in theory looks up to them. But the bottom line is that they are closer to the JLA than they are to the FBI.

So what we basically have is a romance between a teenaged girl that was thrust into the world of adults and than remained in the disillusioning world of republican politics and a traumatized teenaged superhero who had a crush on her since he was 8. I think we can reasonably conclude that they are at the point where reason has taken a back seat. This is clearly a Romeo and Juliet style romance where both sides are willing to kill, be killed or ignore the other sides flaws just as long as they can be together.

[Metahive]

Anakin as envisioned by Lucas should never have got as far as he did. For example, Amidala is an idealistic Senator while just during AotC Anakin shows himself to be openly abrasive, a fascist and a war criminal. Surely someone like Amidala would consider "murders children in a blind rage" a turn-off?

Fascist I wouldn't say, just rather naive when it comes to politics. The latter however I consider a writing fumble. If this had been written as Anakin hiding this deed from Padme and Padme only feeling that Anakin was hiding some painful experience and this inspiring her to comfort him it, starting the romance, would have allowed for much better character introspection. As it stand however it's more like Padme is either infatuated with Anakin to an unhealthy degree (would you associate with someone who has anger issues to the point of murderous rage?) or she has some severe dislike of sandpeople. Both alternatives make the love affair look less than wholesome which I think wasn't what was intended.

EDIT:
And what Purple said.

[gigabytelord]

Fascist I wouldn't say, just rather naive when it comes to politics. The latter however I consider a writing fumble. If this had been written as Anakin hiding this deed from Padme and Padme only feeling that Anakin was hiding some painful experience and this inspiring her to comfort him it, starting the romance, would have allowed for much better character introspection. As it stand however it's more like Padme is either infatuated with Anakin to an unhealthy degree (would you associate with someone who has anger issues to the point of murderous rage?) or she has some severe dislike of sandpeople. Both alternatives make the love affair look less than wholesome which I think wasn't what was intended.

EDIT:
And what Purple said.

Actually her decision to not react to learning about what Anakin had done fit perfectly in my mind to a person like herself. Think about it, she's a Senator, an ex-Queen, a diplomat and probably thinks of her self as a highly intelligent, civilized individual. She may as well have grown up in a golden palace compared to the Sandpeople. Hell the Sandpeople are for all intents and proposes considered to effectively be barbarians; barbarians who are violent, backwards, and ruthless desert pirates. You're talking about a race of people who live on the fringe of a society that already exists on the fringes of galactic civilization. She may have felt sympathy or even a little sadness for what happened, but I doubt it have affected her greatly. She may have wished there had been a way to prevent it from happening, but it had happened, so what was she going to do about it? Add in romantic feelings and a built in sense of cultural, societal, or even racial superiority and you have a not to subtle disconnect from the realities of what had actually happened. It's not like this doesn't have real life parallels. It's no different from how a British officers wife might react upon hearing about an atrocity that occurred in the colony he was posted in, an atrocity that her husband may have had direct involvement in. She would have been sad, maybe even a bit depressed but in the end, she was civilized and 'they' were not.

It's just an idea, just my two cents, but after reading enough history you start to see patterns in certain areas and being first a queen then a senator in the senate of a galaxy spanning republic would, I think anyways, have interesting effects on how a person sees them self and sees others.

Power and wealth always corrupt, but not always in the way we automatically assume.

[Tribble]

Ya, sorry, I should have been more specific. Anakin in PM was just annoying, as kids usually are. I didn't really have problems with that. I was referring to his actions in AOTC and ROTS.

I don't care how he tried to spin it. If you slaughtered defenceless women and children in a blind rage, and you didn't turn yourself in to the Jedi or a psychiatric ward or something, and you basically covered it up apart from revealing it to your equally emotionally disturbed girlfriend, then guess what? You're ALREADY FUCKING EVIL!

That for me is where the story structure failed. I can put up with cheesy romances, meaningless pod races, and yes, even Jar Jar... but is has to lead to something. Where was this great hero who's fall was so emotionally devastating to Obi-Wan that he refused to even acknowledge Darth Vader as being the same person? What is the difference between Anakin in AOTC and ROTS, apart from the fact that in the end of ROTS he was wearing a Darth Vader costume? He was just as selfish, power hungry, and willing to murder people in AOTC as he was in ROTS. What changed, apart from him "officially" switching sides? The only thing I know of as that he became more powerful and thus harder to stop. What was the point of the prequels if Anakin was already an emotional wreck who could snap at any moment?

As Chuck says though, I'm just a viewer with an opinion.

[Havok]

So Darth Vader being an evil mass murdering unrepentant tyrant in the original trilogy OMG AWESOMEST EVER! But Anakin/Vader being a misguided mass murdering emotional wreck who is manipulated by everyone he trusts in the in the prequels equals OMG WHINY ASSHOLE!

Gotchya. I forgot the level of nerds I was talking to.

[Grumman]

So Darth Vader being an evil mass murdering unrepentant tyrant in the original trilogy OMG AWESOMEST EVER! But Anakin/Vader being a misguided mass murdering emotional wreck who is manipulated by everyone he trusts in the in the prequels equals OMG WHINY ASSHOLE!

Gotchya. I forgot the level of nerds I was talking to.

Darth Vader was supposed to become evil. He was not supposed to already be evil. And at least the tyrant was interesting, unlike the punk Lucas imagined Anakin as.

Going only by the movies and not by the EU, Anakin Skywalker did not fall to the Dark Side. That is a problem.

[Tribble]

Darth Vader was supposed to become evil. He was not supposed to already be evil. And at least the tyrant was interesting, unlike the punk Lucas imagined Anakin as.

Going only by the movies and not by the EU, Anakin Skywalker did not fall to the Dark Side. That is a problem.

Precisely.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Were you guys asleep during TPM? He was good. Then he started taking steps on a very slippery slope, and just kept slippin'. What were you expecting?

And even if the perception that Anakin was nothing more than a whiny, pathetic loser was true... that just makes the story that much stronger. Who's the man under that badass mask? Just a pathetic little boy, who finally, in the end, decides to grow up in order to save his son.

[Simon_Jester]

Anakin was "whiny" (like a lot of kids) and not like the idealized hero people thought of therefore asshole. It's unbecoming of a hero to do shit like that.

But at least Tribble is honest and just outright admits that he came up with some version of Anakin in his head and fuck everything else. This is part of my problem with a lot of reviews. It's theoretically about the story structure but more: this is how I saw the previews in the 90s and how Lucas should do it. It may be better, but I'd rather hear how the current story failed or could be made workable.

To be fair, Anakin Skywalker was arguably played up as heroic in the original movies, and I think a lot of people wanted to see him start out in an unambiguously heroic light.

Trouble is, they portrayed him as an impulsive teenager during the period (Episode II) when plotwise he should be at his heroic best. As a result, we don't truly see him shine before he starts to darken.

The hamhanded approach to the Anakin-Padme relationship didn't help either, because while it may be realistic for teenagers raised in a monastic environment to be awkward around women... it sure doesn't help make those teenagers look heroic.

[Havok]

I love how everyone just glosses over the fact that the men, women and children he slaughtered kidnapped and tortured his mother to death and he got there just in time for her to die in his fucking arms. Oh and the "dreams" he was having of just that happening, he was told to ignore by the Jedi whom he had placed all his trust in. Oh yeah, this all happened to an 18 year old with superpowers he was still learning how to control.

Man, what an asshole.