Imperial Military Calculations Revisited

[Patroklos]

There is also the possibility that large swaths of the Imperial war machine was simply absorbed or threw in with any of the great powers such as Corellia (not specifically them). There really isn't any reason that the fracturing of the Empire had to go only warlord or rebel, many of the old polities that we know maintained considerable power in their own right like Kuat (though that particular system appears to have remained subordinate to imperial remnants of various flavors) could have just grabbed what they could and sat the rest of the Civil War out before making their peace with the victors. Think of various neutral nations interring or outright claiming belligerent warships in their territory during various real world conflicts, the actual belligerents just accepting it as a price of not gaining another enemy or because they had no leverage to retaliate.

In many real life civil wars there are plenty of examples of large portions of militaries or provinces/states simply declining to participate or provide only cursory support while the other players beat each other up.

[Rogue 9]

If the Empire had, say, a hundred thousand star destroyers... it would be insane folly for Palpatine to say "here, take only one of these ships which are so numerous I have accountants to count the accountants who count them all, to subdue a huge region of poorly charted space."

Likewise it would be folly to put only a dozen or so star destroyers at Endor, and so on. And it would be hard to explain

While you may reject this argument as insufficiently mathy or something, it does bear consideration.

Well, let's review. First, there were considerably more than a dozen Star Destroyers at Endor:



As can be seen at 2:07 when the Rebel fighters break towards the Imperial fleet, there are considerably more than that visible, at least 27 (not counting the Executor) in that shot alone and it cuts back to the Falcon's cockpit before the camera finishes panning over the right side of the fleet, with possibly more covered up by fighters at the point where I paused to count.

Second, consider their role: They're a pinning force. Palpatine didn't call in a battle fleet to destroy the Rebels; that was the Death Star's job. As Piett told the Executor's captain, "We only need to keep them from escaping." Also consider the role we see Star Destroyers performing in general. Throughout the original trilogy, they're used in the escort role. They chase down fleeing smugglers and blockade runners, perform patrol and interdiction duties, and escort larger capital ships. They're also easily knocked out with a few shots from a ground-based defensive battery. Everything about their use suggests that the name Star Destroyer is meant in the same sense as a naval destroyer; they're not dreadnoughts and aren't supposed to be.

[gigabytelord]

This kind of reminds me of the defensive tendencies we see in the honorverse.
Sure the empire has a hundred thousand ships but the overwhelming majority of those ships are spread out across this galaxy spanning empire performing security duties.

Taking even a significant fraction of them away to go running after a rag-tag rebel fleet might be a bad idea.

[Simon_Jester]

If the Empire had, say, a hundred thousand star destroyers... it would be insane folly for Palpatine to say "here, take only one of these ships which are so numerous I have accountants to count the accountants who count them all, to subdue a huge region of poorly charted space."

Likewise it would be folly to put only a dozen or so star destroyers at Endor, and so on. And it would be hard to explain...

While you may reject this argument as insufficiently mathy or something, it does bear consideration.

Well, let's review. First, there were considerably more than a dozen Star Destroyers at Endor...

As can be seen at 2:07 when the Rebel fighters break towards the Imperial fleet, there are considerably more than that visible, at least 27 (not counting the Executor) in that shot alone and it cuts back to the Falcon's cockpit before the camera finishes panning over the right side of the fleet, with possibly more covered up by fighters at the point where I paused to count.

This is an order of magnitude issue; whether it's 12 or 27 is not the issue. The point is that 27 star destroyers really aren't very many if there are a million like her, and that one Executor-class capital ship really isn't very many if there are a thousand like her.

If nothing else, because when there are a million of these ships and a thousand of those, it becomes relatively hard to make sure none of them fall into rebel hands. And indeed it becomes relatively likely that some will. So having only a few of them on hand to protect you against the entirety of the rebel fleet is... an uncertain gambit.

Second, consider their role: They're a pinning force. Palpatine didn't call in a battle fleet to destroy the Rebels; that was the Death Star's job. As Piett told the Executor's captain, "We only need to keep them from escaping."

Sure- but you need to be sure your blocking force has enough actual force to block the rebel attack fleet, which is probably going to be a maximum-effort operation on their part. Which if they might hit you with, say, 0.1% of the strength of your own fleet, means you might be wise to bring in 0.2% of the strength of your fleet. Say, 200 ships. Nothing major.

Also consider the role we see Star Destroyers performing in general. Throughout the original trilogy, they're used in the escort role. They chase down fleeing smugglers and blockade runners, perform patrol and interdiction duties, and escort larger capital ships. They're also easily knocked out with a few shots from a ground-based defensive battery. Everything about their use suggests that the name Star Destroyer is meant in the same sense as a naval destroyer; they're not dreadnoughts and aren't supposed to be.

This is perhaps true- but you still bump into the numbers issue.

This kind of reminds me of the defensive tendencies we see in the honorverse.
Sure the empire has a hundred thousand ships but the overwhelming majority of those ships are spread out across this galaxy spanning empire performing security duties.

Taking even a significant fraction of them away to go running after a rag-tag rebel fleet might be a bad idea.

In the Honorverse, both sides can usually muster at least 10-20% of their fleet for offensive operations, to the extent that they'll cut ships off their own defensive fleets to do so. Because it really is a bad idea to have everything you've got committed to some pre-existing mission, with no reserve to deal with emergencies or crises. Even if it means stretching your actual frontline defenses thin, you really need a reserve.

You also want a force capable of going on the offensive to make the enemy worry about being safe from you, not just vice versa; for an example of how this applies even to counterinsurgency, look at how much trouble and disruption Death Squadron caused the rebels by hunting down their primary base and interfering with their operations.

Both these factors apply even more in Star Wars where transportation is faster. In the Honorverse, it can take messages many weeks to travel the hundreds of light years between major inhabited systems, and reinforcements take as much time to get there. Thus, if there's a crisis at one point on a farflung battlefront, you have no easy way of knowing anything's wrong until it's been wrong for months. It's hard to deploy a strategic reserve under those conditions, though it remains desirable to use raids to force the enemy to (ponderously) redeploy their own forces to cover sensitive areas.

Whereas in Star Wars, ships can go anywhere in (it seems) a matter of days. So it is really important to have a rapid-reaction force. Because otherwise enemy raiders will be jumping all over the place harassing you, then vanishing into the vastness of the galaxy to do it all over again next week. And your own forces, assigned by their own mission requirements to operate only in their own fixed sectors of responsibilty, might as well be useless to counter this.

So I would expect there to be a considerable reserve force (possibly employed specifically to hunt major rebel bases, as Death Squadron were). The only obvious explanation for why such a force would NOT exist is if the Empire is so desperately hard up for ships that they can't form such a task force even knowing it would free up many, many ships from other duties by putting the rebels on the defensive. And we never see any evidence of the Empire suffering construction setbacks or military defeats on a scale that would explain that.

It makes more sense to suppose that the Imperial squadron at Endor is the equivalent of Death Squadron, or possibly the exact same formation, which the presence of Executor and Vader personally would tend to support. In which case that tells us the size of the Empire's dedicated rebel-hunting task force... and that it appears to consist of a few dozen destroyers and a single capital ship.

Which is reasonable in a universe where the Imperial fleet consists of a thousand destroyers and a few dozen capital ships. Maybe even ten thousand destroyers. A hundred thousand? Pushing it, if you ask me.

[Eternal_Freedom]

There is also the consideration that the Battle of Endor is meant to be a trap, and given that the Rebels clearly had agents within the Imperial government, they couldn't pull a massive number of ships off regular duties without the Rebels getting wind of it.

[Simon_Jester]

Well yes, but the size of "massive" depends very heavily on the actual size of the fleet. Hiding the location of one ship the size of Executor is likely to be hard if there are only three or four of them in existence (the size of the crew makes catching all the spies on such a ship harder). If there are hundreds, it's easier to 'lose' one in the shuffle.

Also, there are a number of ways to set up a deception scheme for the location of the ships- the easiest and most obvious one being to claim that you're sending the ships off on a voyage of exploration or conquest at the fringes of known space. Nobody will be surprised if such ships don't report back for a few critical weeks or even months. Or, assuming you're in the habit of military secrecy, you could just do what the Japanese did at Pearl Harbor and have the ships just... not talk to anyone for an extended period of time. Combine that with the idea of 'sealed orders,' when you're observing strict communications discipline and so on, with only a handful of very senior people even knowing where the fleet is going.

Hiding 27 destroyers and a single capital ship is hard but not that hard.

So it argues for the Imperial Starfleet being big compared to, say, real fleets; real military fleets typically have at most several hundred warships, while the Empire must have thousands if they're able to just 'lose' 27 of them long enough to set a trap.

Especially since Palpatine doesn't seem to have had a precise sense of exactly when the Rebels would attack; if he had then setting the trap would be trivial because you could literally order half the Imperial fleet to jump to Endor an hour before the Rebel attack, when they're already fully committed.

But if they had hundreds of thousands, then you'd really expect them to have sent more ships, and had no trouble hiding them at least temporarily. If nothing else because then the rebels really ought to have a large enough number of ships that sending only 27 ships to stop them is... not enough.

[Eternal_Freedom]

True. Then again, what is the source for there being 25,000 ISDs? Presumably it's somewhere in the EU. If we are accepting the EU, then at least 12 Executors were built (those are the one's named anyway) plus various other classes of capital ship.

Certainly I've never held that there were hundreds of thousands of Star Destroyers. Tens of thousands, plus smaller vessels and command ships (which, according to Solo, there were "a lot of") makes sense on an order-of-magnitude level.

[RogueIce]

True. Then again, what is the source for there being 25,000 ISDs? Presumably it's somewhere in the EU. If we are accepting the EU, then at least 12 Executors were built (those are the one's named anyway) plus various other classes of capital ship.

IIRC it was one of the WEG RPG sourcebooks. I didn't really read those so I'm not sure.

I believe Timothy Zahn did explicitly mention the 25,000 number in the Hand of Thrawn Duology. Can't recall if it also got mention in TTT.

[Rogue 9]

That's another thing. The rebels were obviously expecting the Executor (or at least an Executor class dreadnought) to be at Endor, given our heroes' complete lack of surprise and panic at seeing one. Actually, it would be foolish to expect the Emperor to travel in anything else. They came prepared to deal with that; it's why they had a fleet of cruisers and frigates rather than sending a strike force of starfighters and calling it a day. (Clearly their fleet was able to destroy the dreadnought, because it managed to do so even after losing two cruisers to the Death Star and while it was surrounded by its escorts.) What made Ackbar exclaim about traps was the accompanying Star Destroyers, which they were clearly not expecting at all. Even then, though, he didn't consider a full retreat until after the battle station opened fire.

[Andras]

True. Then again, what is the source for there being 25,000 ISDs? Presumably it's somewhere in the EU. If we are accepting the EU, then at least 12 Executors were built (those are the one's named anyway) plus various other classes of capital ship.

IIRC it was one of the WEG RPG sourcebooks. I didn't really read those so I'm not sure.

I believe Timothy Zahn did explicitly mention the 25,000 number in the Hand of Thrawn Duology. Can't recall if it also got mention in TTT.

Zahn is the source of the 25,000 ISD number. If you go by WEG, you get more like 250,000*.
WEG also says that 10% of the entire navy was held back in the core regions as a reserve. If you take 250k as a galaxy wide whole, then the 25k number works as the core reserve.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy
Additionally, a full ten percent of the entire Imperial Navy was kept in reserve in the Core Worlds, so as to be able to quickly respond to threats throughout the galaxy.[19]

250k ISD spread over 51million inhabited systems** is still less the 1 ISD per 200 systems, with an average of ~4900 systems in a sector. (96 members, 4800 colonies)

*countless regions, some containing thousands of sectors, 24 ISD per sector fleet, plus oversector forces.
**Alternately, the wikia says 1.5million members and 69million colonies, for 282 worlds per ISD.

[Patroklos]

That's another thing. The rebels were obviously expecting the Executor (or at least an Executor class dreadnought) to be at Endor, given our heroes' complete lack of surprise and panic at seeing one. Actually, it would be foolish to expect the Emperor to travel in anything else. They came prepared to deal with that; it's why they had a fleet of cruisers and frigates rather than sending a strike force of starfighters and calling it a day. (Clearly their fleet was able to destroy the dreadnought, because it managed to do so even after losing two cruisers to the Death Star and while it was surrounded by its escorts.) What made Ackbar exclaim about traps was the accompanying Star Destroyers, which they were clearly not expecting at all. Even then, though, he didn't consider a full retreat until after the battle station opened fire.

Actually this most definetly not the case.

1.) Admiral Ackbar very clearly states "we won't last long against those star destroyers," and thats when he has the whole fleet to include whatever the original plan would have dedicated to the Death Star assault. Granted, minus a few cruisers the DS got.

2.) I think its made pretty clear that the destruction of the Executor was a fluke, right down to them doing the "unknown weak point" (which SW is famous for) bridge crash which was obviously a way to negate the natural audience assumption that the Rebels were toast at that point. Its awesome and cool because it wasn't supposed or expected to happen that way.

In fact if I remember the screne correctly it wasn't even done on purpose, the A-wing was damaged in an exchange of fire in the SSDs trenches spiraled out of control into the bridge. I know some people call that a purposeful kamakazi run but the movie doesn't make a good case for that (is there EU backup?). Its not unheard of, the Hood wasn't supposed to blow up after one salvo.

If I had to guess, and thats what I am doing, the Rebels never thought they could defeat the Imperail conventional presence at Endor and indeed had no intention of doing so. The main fleet's sole job was to hold off whatever Imperial SDs and starfighters were present to get a significant number of Rebel starfighters to the DS and were willing to sacrifice the entirety of their fleet to do so. Which was a good idea because if they failed to do so and the DS survived the presense of a mauled surviving Rebel fleet would be irrelevant. If thats their sole limited mission its not inconcievable to assume the Rebels could do that against a fleet many times their strenght which may explain who the Executor didn't end things, they didn't need to destroy her, only get past her temporarily.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Actually you've got the sequence wrong there, and missed out a key part of Ackbar's line

1. Rebel fleet drops out of hyperspace and approaches DSII
2. They realise the shield is up and detect Imperial ships.
3. All ships turn about and head towards the Imperial fleet
4. DSII opens fire (the turn was complete by then, both cruisers were hit from behind)
5. Ackbar calls a full retreat
6. Lando points out they won't get another chance
7. Ackbar says the cruisers can't survive the fire from the DSII
8. Lando says "get as close as you can and engage those Star Destroyers at point-blank range."
9. Ackbar says "at that close range we won't last long."

You missed out the close-range part, although the Rebel fleet probably would survive longer in a clsoe range firefight because the DSII had to limit it's fire.

[Rogue 9]

That's another thing. The rebels were obviously expecting the Executor (or at least an Executor class dreadnought) to be at Endor, given our heroes' complete lack of surprise and panic at seeing one. Actually, it would be foolish to expect the Emperor to travel in anything else. They came prepared to deal with that; it's why they had a fleet of cruisers and frigates rather than sending a strike force of starfighters and calling it a day. (Clearly their fleet was able to destroy the dreadnought, because it managed to do so even after losing two cruisers to the Death Star and while it was surrounded by its escorts.) What made Ackbar exclaim about traps was the accompanying Star Destroyers, which they were clearly not expecting at all. Even then, though, he didn't consider a full retreat until after the battle station opened fire.

Actually this most definetly not the case.

1.) Admiral Ackbar very clearly states "we won't last long against those star destroyers," and thats when he has the whole fleet to include whatever the original plan would have dedicated to the Death Star assault. Granted, minus a few cruisers the DS got.

2.) I think its made pretty clear that the destruction of the Executor was a fluke, right down to them doing the "unknown weak point" (which SW is famous for) bridge crash which was obviously a way to negate the natural audience assumption that the Rebels were toast at that point. Its awesome and cool because it wasn't supposed or expected to happen that way.

In fact if I remember the screne correctly it wasn't even done on purpose, the A-wing was damaged in an exchange of fire in the SSDs trenches spiraled out of control into the bridge. I know some people call that a purposeful kamakazi run but the movie doesn't make a good case for that (is there EU backup?). Its not unheard of, the Hood wasn't supposed to blow up after one salvo.

If I had to guess, and thats what I am doing, the Rebels never thought they could defeat the Imperail conventional presence at Endor and indeed had no intention of doing so. The main fleet's sole job was to hold off whatever Imperial SDs and starfighters were present to get a significant number of Rebel starfighters to the DS and were willing to sacrifice the entirety of their fleet to do so. Which was a good idea because if they failed to do so and the DS survived the presense of a mauled surviving Rebel fleet would be irrelevant. If thats their sole limited mission its not inconcievable to assume the Rebels could do that against a fleet many times their strenght which may explain who the Executor didn't end things, they didn't need to destroy her, only get past her temporarily.

The Executor had already lost its bridge deflector shield to conventional bombardment; it isn't that much of a stretch to say a turbolaser battery could have (and in fact did; flames are pouring out of the bridge tower at more than one point) put paid to it just as well. Green Leader crashing into the bridge window was a climactic way to do it, but it was hardly the only thing that could have. That's why I say it's probable that the Rebel fleet could have defeated the dreadnought on its own or at least held it at bay.

[Patroklos]

Actually you've got the sequence wrong there, and missed out a key part of Ackbar's line

1. Rebel fleet drops out of hyperspace and approaches DSII
2. They realise the shield is up and detect Imperial ships.
3. All ships turn about and head towards the Imperial fleet
4. DSII opens fire (the turn was complete by then, both cruisers were hit from behind)
5. Ackbar calls a full retreat
6. Lando points out they won't get another chance
7. Ackbar says the cruisers can't survive the fire from the DSII
8. Lando says "get as close as you can and engage those Star Destroyers at point-blank range."
9. Ackbar says "at that close range we won't last long."

You missed out the close-range part, although the Rebel fleet probably would survive longer in a clsoe range firefight because the DSII had to limit it's fire.

That doesn't really have any bearing on what I said. All that line tells us that at close range, the range the Rebel fleet actually closed to in the movie, they would not survive for long. It makes sense that at closer range they would lose faster as Imperial warships are probably no different than any other type in that their fire becomes more effective at closer range. That doesn't say anything about any other possible range and the Rebel supposed survival chances one way or the other, but its a stretch to imagine that if they can be rapidly defeated at close range (an established fact stated by one of the most successful in universe fleet admirals) that increasing to any other effective combat range would reverse that into a likely Rebel victory.

Also remember that the Death Squadron commanders don't seem at all concerned about closing and engaging the Rebel fleet, and then when Piett declines to go ont he attack he similarly shows no signs of being concerned about not being able to prevent the Rebel fleet from retreating with his on hand forces. There is no indication either knows the DS is active (maybe Piett guessed), so they are talking about just the conventional forces here. So we have the senior officers present on both sides (Ackbar and Piett) both either outright saying or very clearly implying the Imperials have the upper hand regarding any conventional fleet engagement.

The Executor had already lost its bridge deflector shield to conventional bombardment; it isn't that much of a stretch to say a turbolaser battery could have (and in fact did; flames are pouring out of the bridge tower at more than one point) put paid to it just as well. Green Leader crashing into the bridge window was a climactic way to do it, but it was hardly the only thing that could have. That's why I say it's probable that the Rebel fleet could have defeated the dreadnought on its own or at least held it at bay.

We have no idea how exactly the Bridge Deflector shield went down. Ackbar says to concentrate fire on the Executor sure, there is nothing regarding localizing fire anywhere and we don't see any capital ship fire striking the bridge (or the Executor in general actually). The only fire we see hit anything related to the bridge is the strafing by two A-wings on the dome. Only ONE dome mind you (though it looks like the other is gone as as well in the post crash scene). This seems implausible given what we know about SW shields via the EU now but at the time of the movie the mechanics of that didn't matter. It happened. I will bring up the Hood again, sometimes no matter what you do a good shot at the right angle gets in. Maybe SW shields have similar issues and a one in a thousand shot can get through, in this case directly onto a shield generator. Who knows. Whatever the mechanism is that allowed it that doesn't mean you can count on that. Also the Imperial officer who made the report seemed pretty surprised the shield went down, and Piett and his attendee don't look like they were particularly concerned about the situation prior (unlike "It's a TRAP" Ackbar). If the Executor and the Imperial fleet were in particular danger prior to that point Piett must be a pretty cool customer under pressure. Hell, even Ackbar's reaction when he sees Executor going down looks to me like "HOLY SHIT, that worked?! Give me a minute."

As for the actual bridge explosion I suggest you watch it again. There is no indication of any Rebel fire, from star fighters or capital ships or otherwise, hitting the tower outside the previously mentioned two strafing A-wings. We see the obvious damage from the A-wing crash which matches up with what we see from the interior shot, the previously destroyed shield generators (EU wrangling about what that dome actually is aside) and them some other follow on internal explosions. Exactly two follow on internal explosions actually, and we see them both from start to finish without a turbolaser bolt edgewise. I would interpret that as secondaries from the A-wing strike but whatever they are they have nothing to do with Rebel fire unless those bolts were invisible.

http://youtu.be/RW_hGOFukMQ

[Rogue 9]

There's also a big gout of flame coming from the ventral side of the ship near the stern, visible as it crashes into the Death Star. That certainly wasn't the A-wing crash.

[Borgholio]

I have always felt that the explosion of the sensor dome on the bridge took out the generators either underneath or near them. It seems highly unlikely that the deflector shields for the most important part of the ship could be taken out by a pair of light fighters unless they hit something nearby that caused secondary explosions to destroy the shield generator.

[Captain Seafort]

I have always felt that the explosion of the sensor dome on the bridge took out the generators either underneath or near them. It seems highly unlikely that the deflector shields for the most important part of the ship could be taken out by a pair of light fighters unless they hit something nearby that caused secondary explosions to destroy the shield generator.

And how exactly are a pair of light fighters going to get through the shields in the first place?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Actually you've got the sequence wrong there, and missed out a key part of Ackbar's line

1. Rebel fleet drops out of hyperspace and approaches DSII
2. They realise the shield is up and detect Imperial ships.
3. All ships turn about and head towards the Imperial fleet
4. DSII opens fire (the turn was complete by then, both cruisers were hit from behind)
5. Ackbar calls a full retreat
6. Lando points out they won't get another chance
7. Ackbar says the cruisers can't survive the fire from the DSII
8. Lando says "get as close as you can and engage those Star Destroyers at point-blank range."
9. Ackbar says "at that close range we won't last long."

You missed out the close-range part, although the Rebel fleet probably would survive longer in a clsoe range firefight because the DSII had to limit it's fire.

That doesn't really have any bearing on what I said. All that line tells us that at close range, the range the Rebel fleet actually closed to in the movie, they would not survive for long. It makes sense that at closer range they would lose faster as Imperial warships are probably no different than any other type in that their fire becomes more effective at closer range. That doesn't say anything about any other possible range and the Rebel supposed survival chances one way or the other, but its a stretch to imagine that if they can be rapidly defeated at close range (an established fact stated by one of the most successful in universe fleet admirals) that increasing to any other effective combat range would reverse that into a likely Rebel victory.

Also remember that the Death Squadron commanders don't seem at all concerned about closing and engaging the Rebel fleet, and then when Piett declines to go ont he attack he similarly shows no signs of being concerned about not being able to prevent the Rebel fleet from retreating with his on hand forces. There is no indication either knows the DS is active (maybe Piett guessed), so they are talking about just the conventional forces here. So we have the senior officers present on both sides (Ackbar and Piett) both either outright saying or very clearly implying the Imperials have the upper hand regarding any conventional fleet engagement.

Actually the close-range part is significant, as it's onyl after the DSII opens fire that Ackbar calls a retreat. Prior to that he clearly felt that the risk to the Rebel Fleet was worth it and that he could engage the Imperials on equal-enough terms. Only when the DS opens fire and begins one-shotting his capital ships does he order a retreat.

Ergo, he did not feel sufficiently outnunmbered and outgunned by Death Squadron that he felt a retreat was prudent. He thought he had at least a reasonable chance of winning and/or delaying the Star Destroyers long enough to destroy the Death Star.

Oh, and incidentally, for most actual warships since the age of sail, getting up close and personal makes your fire less effective. On dreadnoughts for instance, the closer you are the flatter your shells trajectory, meaning you are unlikly to hit the ship's vitals, you'll blow through superstructure but nothing vital. Even if you depress the guns the main belt armour is there to stop exactly that kind of shot. Hood went down to plunging fire hitting a magazine at range.

[Borgholio]

I have always felt that the explosion of the sensor dome on the bridge took out the generators either underneath or near them. It seems highly unlikely that the deflector shields for the most important part of the ship could be taken out by a pair of light fighters unless they hit something nearby that caused secondary explosions to destroy the shield generator.

And how exactly are a pair of light fighters going to get through the shields in the first place?

Perhaps the sensor domes are lightly shielded so as not to interfere with their operation. Modern radar antennas are fragile because heavy armor would make them less effective, for example.

[Patroklos]

There's also a big gout of flame coming from the ventral side of the ship near the stern, visible as it crashes into the Death Star. That certainly wasn't the A-wing crash.

I can't say one way of the other, but whatever it is its not visible from Ackbar's bridge view as the Exeuctor begins to go down so whatever it is it happened after the events of the bridge tower's destruction. Maybe Rebel warships continued to fire as the Executor went down and got an engine. Maybe with the bridge gone the computer logics were not keeping the flux capacitor ionization balance field in check (insert your own the babble here) causing the engine to flame out. Maybe the officers in the engine room triggered it to max thrust in a desperate attempt to escape the Death Star's pull. Who knows.

Actually the close-range part is significant, as it's onyl after the DSII opens fire that Ackbar calls a retreat. Prior to that he clearly felt that the risk to the Rebel Fleet was worth it and that he could engage the Imperials on equal-enough terms. Only when the DS opens fire and begins one-shotting his capital ships does he order a retreat.

Of course he thought the risk to the Rebel fleet was worth it or he wouldn't have jumped to Endor in the first place. The point is winning against any Imperial defense fleet or the survival of the Rebel fleet itself was not the primary point of the mission, getting starfighters close enough to the Death Star to destroy it was. Even in the situation the Rebel's ended up in where Ackbar admits his fleet not only has no chance to survive but won't survive long they obviously were not instakilled and were able to provide enough distraction that star fighters survived and could get to the Death Star when the opportunity came.

This was an all in operation with one goal, kill the DS or die in the attempt. The retreat was called because the shield was up and the DS was operational giving no chance of success, in that circumstance there is no point in dieing needlessly. But as Lando points out and Ackbar then agrees with, as long as their is a chance to get that shield down its worth the death of the Rebel fleet by DS or capital ship combat for even the thinnest chance to get at the DS. This choice is proven correct by the movie of course, but Ackbar must have known when he called off his retreat and went in close with the star destroyers that the shield may have never come down.

Ergo, he did not feel sufficiently outnunmbered and outgunned by Death Squadron that he felt a retreat was prudent. He thought he had at least a reasonable chance of winning and/or delaying the Star Destroyers long enough to destroy the Death Star.

1.) You are assuming he could have pulled off a retreat in the first place. Piett outright states his intentions before the Rebel's even got there (he had previous orders from the Emperor) was to prevent a retreat and obviously would have prepared to do just that and probably without the knowledge that the DS would be operational to help him do so.

2.) Delaying sure. The whole point of the fleet being there at all was to create a perimeter to give the units tasked with the DS attack cover. Delaying is not the same thing as winning or even surviving. The British delayed the Germans at Dunkirk, that didn't reverse the action into their victory. We don't know exactly what Imperial forces Ackbar thought he was going encounter from the get go, but whatever the details of his plan was he obviously thought he had the ability to achieve it but as his on hand comments explicit state it would not have included a one on one duel with an Imperial fleet he ended up actually encountering that he was going to walk way from. Given he was willing to sacrifice the fleet when he did know his survival was zero (in his estimation) AND that is with the knowledge the DS shield was still up and the DS itself was operational I don't see why that would have changed his plans from the start when he was still assuming a down shield and a nonfunctional DS.

Oh, and incidentally, for most actual warships since the age of sail, getting up close and personal makes your fire less effective. On dreadnoughts for instance, the closer you are the flatter your shells trajectory, meaning you are unlikly to hit the ship's vitals, you'll blow through superstructure but nothing vital. Even if you depress the guns the main belt armour is there to stop exactly that kind of shot. Hood went down to plunging fire hitting a magazine at range.

You need to balance the effectiveness of your shells when they actually hit with the effectiveness of getting your shells to hit in the first place due to range. Its a balance. You are incorrect however in your comparison because since the 1950s sea skimming missiles want to be low and at the waterline, not high and into deck. And I think we can both agree your analogy doesn't really apply to turbo laser bolts, I can't think of any reason they would be more effective when you actually get them to strike a hull or shield at any particular range. Perhaps the angle or impact matters but in space combat there would be no plunging shot comparison. The only effect I could see range having is the bolt losing energy the longer it takes to get to the target which would make closer range shots more effective (I have no idea if this actually happens in SW).

Whatever the effect is it would be the exact same for the Rebel capital ships too, so unless you have a reason why this would degrade the Imperial warships more than those of the Rebels at best we have a wash.

For reference:
http://youtu.be/xPZigWFyK2o

[Eternal_Freedom]

Actually, the remarks about warships and fire ranges was in reponse to this bit of your post:

It makes sense that at closer range they would lose faster as Imperial warships are probably no different than any other type in that their fire becomes more effective at closer range.

And as I said, that hasn't been true since the Age of Sail. Even once anti-ship missiles appeared, gettign in close wasn't an advantage, because your opponent would have been firing at you all the way in.

It will apply in Star Wars though, not because of any stuff about turbolaser bolts losing power, but simply because it is easier to aim at point-blank range. No jamming or ECM can stop you if you can aim the damn gun by eye. And from a physics standpoint, getting in close and staying there means they've matched the Imperials' course and speed exactly, to escape they'd need a lot of extra velocity.

Also, your comments about risk prove that Ackbar thought he could prevail against Death Squadron. He risks losing all or part of his fleet to destroy the DSII. He would not run that risk if he knew he absolutely couldn't win the fight. He wouldn't take the risk if the odds were zero.

And your remarks about whether it was even possible for Ackbar to retreat are irrelevant. We have to go with what we see on screen, and Ackbar recgonizes the trap and moves out to engage nevertheless, because he thinks he can defeat or hold off Death Squadron for a sufficient length of time. Again, he clearly thinks the odds are better than zero. It's only whent he Death Star is added tot he mix that he says "fuck it, it's not worth the risk."

[Esquire]

But as has been pointed out, the goal isn't "destroy Imperial fleet units," it's "distract them long enough for fighters to blow up the Death Star and kill the Emperor." Those are very much not the same thing; the Rebel ships can be destroyed to the last corvette and still accomplish the second.

Also, as regards the effectiveness of fire at different ranges, I suspect it's true that every weapon system is more effective closer to its minimum effective range than to its maximum. Changing armor geometries and gunnery advances have shifted where those are over the centuries, but the principle seems solid.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Except that even if the DSII is dsetroyed and Palpatine and Vader killed, the Empire isn't instantly defeated. Hell, if we look at the EU, it took fifteen-odd years for the Rebels and the Imperials to finally make peace, and even then the Empire still existed.

If the Rebel fleet is annihilated, then the Empire wil ultimately prevail in a new form with a new leader, because all of the Rebel's senior leadership will be gone (Ackbar, Luke, Leia, Han, Lando for certain, Mon Mothmas most likely as well, plus Madine and others) and it's main means of fighting back is gone.

I seriously doubt Ackbar is willing to sacrifice absolutely everything on something that will not for certain destroy the Empire and restore the Republic. That last part is equally important as destroying the Empire. With no prospective Republic leaders left, the Empire will not be destroyed.

[Simon_Jester]

The rebels still have considerable ground forces and (presumably) civilian shipping that couldn't possibly have been committed usefully to Endor. So long as a basic leadership cadre is preserved it really shouldn't be a problem.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Yeah, except where is that basic leadership cadre? All of there top leaders were seen in the fleet that attacked Endor, as I said. Lower-level leaders are not going to be able to take on the best Imperial officers, certainly not right away, and it will inevitably take some time to get themselves organised again.

Yes, granted, it will take the Empire time as well, but they have the advantage of not having to do the reorganizing clandestinely.