Star WArs Clone wars force Sub

[Batman]

The thing with the (now indeed no longer canon) 200GT MTLs was that even if the DS superlaser firepower doesn't scale down linearly (which if the real world is anything to go by is pretty damned likely) those 200GT are several orders of magnitude less than what you'd get by simple linear downscaling, so it was by no means an excessive figure.

[cmdrjones]

Well, yes, I'd tend to assume one cube vs. a galactic civilization is going to lose.

Edit: My point is just that numbers are going to have to come from a source that is canon, whatever those numbers may be.

I agree, which is why I allowed them to cooperate, and demonstrated a plausible way for the Borg to use thier 5 years to cheat like mofos...

[Ted C]

I hate to say it, but the Psychlos of the book are actually a threat. Ship-to-ship I don't know how dangerous they would be, but they basically have intergalactic teleportation technology that they can use to deliver planet-destroying superweapons. If their home system is effectively out of range of Republic attack, they can deploy fleets, troops, or superweapons at will with no fear of counterattack.

And since this is an "all together against the Republic" scenario, Psychlo teleportation technology is a huge strategic advantage for the entire "Separatist" force.

[cmdrjones]

I hate to say it, but the Psychlos of the book are actually a threat. Ship-to-ship I don't know how dangerous they would be, but they basically have intergalactic teleportation technology that they can use to deliver planet-destroying superweapons. If their home system is effectively out of range of Republic attack, they can deploy fleets, troops, or superweapons at will with no fear of counterattack.

And since this is an "all together against the Republic" scenario, Psychlo teleportation technology is a huge strategic advantage for the entire "Separatist" force.

That brings up another idea, being that we have the Borg queen in this scenario, how wold the Republic react to Borg that were ordered to just 'show up and help out' and only assimilate those who ask for it? To the republic it would be like one of any number of cults or alien races that the galaxy teems with. Would they even notice until Borg drones were so ubiquitous that they would be somewhat like droids... always in the background fixing, mining, cleaning, repairing, hauling, driving, or doing some other mundane task?

[Elheru Aran]

Note that cybernetics in the SW universe tend to be low profile for the most part-- Anakin Skywalker's is unusual because it's exposed mechanics. You wouldn't know Luke had a bionic hand unless you saw it without the flesh-glove. So that suggests that Borg, with the extensive external cybernetics, would be fairly unusual, and the whole assimilation thing would probably be viewed very poorly. Don't forget that Jedi can (to a degree) read minds and visualize probable futures-- they aren't going to be sitting on their hands about this.

[cmdrjones]

Note that cybernetics in the SW universe tend to be low profile for the most part-- Anakin Skywalker's is unusual because it's exposed mechanics. You wouldn't know Luke had a bionic hand unless you saw it without the flesh-glove. So that suggests that Borg, with the extensive external cybernetics, would be fairly unusual, and the whole assimilation thing would probably be viewed very poorly. Don't forget that Jedi can (to a degree) read minds and visualize probable futures-- they aren't going to be sitting on their hands about this.

That's a good point, even if the borg attempt to remain 'low key' the first time a jedi gets curious and gets a whiff of 'eau de collective' there may be serious problems.... OTOH the IG-88 thing nearly caused some serious damage to the galaxy IIRC, so there is precedent for invasive 'software' gettting out of control in the SW galaxy.

Could the Borg hack the holonet?
if so could they do so undetected?

[Elheru Aran]

The IG-88 thing... is better left alone in the obscure corners of the now-deceased EU. It's an absurd piece of wank.

The Borg can't hack the Holonet until they manage to assimilate SW computing tech, and it's quite possible that SW tech in general may be too advanced for them to quickly assimilate. They would have to figure out where their knowledge of it ends, and what more they need to learn. SW tech is in many ways much more advanced than Trek and quite possibly is designed along different principles. So no, I don't think the Borg can hack the Holonet, not without a lot of work. There is simply too much of a technological disparity, at least from the get-go. If they assimilated some scientists and technologists, then perhaps they could get lucky, but otherwise they have nothing to go on other than experimentation.

[Adam Reynolds]

Note that cybernetics in the SW universe tend to be low profile for the most part-- Anakin Skywalker's is unusual because it's exposed mechanics. You wouldn't know Luke had a bionic hand unless you saw it without the flesh-glove. So that suggests that Borg, with the extensive external cybernetics, would be fairly unusual, and the whole assimilation thing would probably be viewed very poorly. Don't forget that Jedi can (to a degree) read minds and visualize probable futures-- they aren't going to be sitting on their hands about this.

We do see Lobot with an obvious cybernetic brain enhancement, not to mention General Grevious and Darth Vader as overt cyborgs. The Borg might seem odd, but they would not be entirely unknown. The issue that would raise eyebrows is that of the collective.

The larger issue with this concept is the idea that each of the various groups would cooperate because reasons. There is little reason for these groups to suddenly work together, even in the presence of a greater enemy.

[cmdrjones]

The IG-88 thing... is better left alone in the obscure corners of the now-deceased EU. It's an absurd piece of wank.

The Borg can't hack the Holonet until they manage to assimilate SW computing tech, and it's quite possible that SW tech in general may be too advanced for them to quickly assimilate. They would have to figure out where their knowledge of it ends, and what more they need to learn. SW tech is in many ways much more advanced than Trek and quite possibly is designed along different principles. So no, I don't think the Borg can hack the Holonet, not without a lot of work. There is simply too much of a technological disparity, at least from the get-go. If they assimilated some scientists and technologists, then perhaps they could get lucky, but otherwise they have nothing to go on other than experimentation.

Again, I gave them an arbitrary 5 years prep time, hwo they use it it up to them. they may very well try to hack the holonet, they don't seem to be very humble when it comed to interfereing with other species' computer systems, now witht he aid of the Decepticons... that's something else entirely. I think that the Borg could get quite a bit of Republic technology by simply bartering for it, or, as i suggested renting themselves out as cheap labor. In any case, it has a certain interesting ring to it, the idea of borg drones competing with droids for all the jobs that sentients just wont do.

[cmdrjones]

Note that cybernetics in the SW universe tend to be low profile for the most part-- Anakin Skywalker's is unusual because it's exposed mechanics. You wouldn't know Luke had a bionic hand unless you saw it without the flesh-glove. So that suggests that Borg, with the extensive external cybernetics, would be fairly unusual, and the whole assimilation thing would probably be viewed very poorly. Don't forget that Jedi can (to a degree) read minds and visualize probable futures-- they aren't going to be sitting on their hands about this.

We do see Lobot with an obvious cybernetic brain enhancement, not to mention General Grevious and Darth Vader as overt cyborgs. The Borg might seem odd, but they would not be entirely unknown. The issue that would raise eyebrows is that of the collective.

The larger issue with this concept is the idea that each of the various groups would cooperate because reasons. There is little reason for these groups to suddenly work together, even in the presence of a greater enemy.

yeah, that was a little handwavium....

[Elheru Aran]

Grievous was largely considered a robot, IIRC. Some people may have been aware Vader was a cyborg, but the general public would not have been aware or noticed given that he wore clothing and robes over the cybernetics. Point conceded on Lobot, I had forgotten about him.

In the EU there's something of a prejudice against cyborgs; there's not so much of that in the films. However if that held true, the Borg would be further disadvantaged, especially considering their particularly inhuman appearance. Don't forget that at least some, if not most, of them are non-human in origin, and of species not from the Star Wars galaxy, which notably has a large number of non-humanoid aliens that don't actually look like rubber-forehead extras... which most of the Borg species would be. So that's yet another reason they would stand out.

[cmdrjones]

Grievous was largely considered a robot, IIRC. Some people may have been aware Vader was a cyborg, but the general public would not have been aware or noticed given that he wore clothing and robes over the cybernetics. Point conceded on Lobot, I had forgotten about him.

In the EU there's something of a prejudice against cyborgs; there's not so much of that in the films. However if that held true, the Borg would be further disadvantaged, especially considering their particularly inhuman appearance. Don't forget that at least some, if not most, of them are non-human in origin, and of species not from the Star Wars galaxy, which notably has a large number of non-humanoid aliens that don't actually look like rubber-forehead extras... which most of the Borg species would be. So that's yet another reason they would stand out.

The EU is ambiguous... Its been officially tossed, but it still influences how people think about the SW galalxy and probably will for a generation. That being said.... do you think anyone in the SW galaxy would volunteer for assimilation? (The poor, downtrodden, hungry, slaves etc?) I can see people from some of the lower strata of life volunteering to be taken care of in that way. And even IF they don't lie about what the collective really means, I can see in a galaxy of trillions, millions would volunteer for a hive mind existence. not to mention buying up slaves in the outer rim and simply assimilating them.

[cmdrjones]

Plus the whole planet of Psychlos from Battlefield Earth, IIRC, was a fairly sizeable military force in its own right.

The Bugs are *not* impressive at all. A competent modern-day military would have been able to hold them off. Unless we're talking book version, which were tougher nuts.

Independence Day aliens have some serious ships, but their tech level is not all that impressive compared to Star Wars. Some good acceleration on the fighters, though (what was it, from Area 51 to the mothership-- halfway to the moon or something-- in a matter of minutes?), which SW can probably match with ease. I doubt their shields are that good, and the ships only really exhibited one or two weapons other than the big city-buster cannon.

Signs aliens? Please.

Mimics could be very difficult to counter. Jedi can do it, though. They might also have issues against armour, IIRC the Edge of Tomorrow soldiers never really tried much in the way of tanks but then they may just not have shown them much. But clonetroopers against Mimics could get messy.

Decepticons could also mess up the Republic due to their ability to hide, although SW sensors are almost certainly far better than Earth's. It's a pretty good guarantee that they could be detected. Whether they could be caught before they can cause havoc is another story. Imagine Megatron in disguise as a LAAT... inside an Acclamator or Venator. They can be taken down by massive quantities of Earth weapons though, I imagine Star Wars weapons could put a better hole in them.

Borg and the cube? Ha. If the cube can withstand 200GT turbolasers, I tip my hat to them. Blasters are also significantly stronger than phasers, and if they try to assimilate clonetroopers, they have to get through armour first rather than Starfleet pajamas.

Don't know enough about the rest. Mind-control aliens like the ones from Slither could be countered by Jedi, probably.

Nitpicks: The ID4 alien fighters withstood an impact from an F-15 going al full speed and simply tumbled end over end... what would be the energy output on such an crash? Their shields might be better than we think.

Decepticons: They would be significantly tougher if they could use thier adaptation abilities to mimic SW technology! megatron wouldn't just LOOK like a LAAT, he'd have the same durability and firepower too! If they can spend enough time in SW without getting caught, they could become extremely powerful and versatile. Probably not invulnerable, but with the same level of endurance they show to earth weaponry they would show to republic weaponry... plus shields.

[Elheru Aran]

Plane impacts are actually not all that impressive. Messy, but the heaviest part in that is the engine, couple tons or so. The rest of it is mostly aluminum or other lightweight materials. Well, I suppose there's the fuel too in the kinetic-energy part of the equation, I don't know how that works out though but the explosion isn't terribly powerful. ID4 shields are pretty decent in that they can stand up to Earth level weapons (and that includes kinetic impacts, as you demonstrate) but SW weapons are several orders of magnitude above Earth level. I don't know if anybody's ever calc'd up the nuke they tried to use on a saucer... it's probably somewhere out there on the Internets though.

[Borgholio]

The nuke on the saucer is a bit inconsistent. As close as the B2 got to the thing, any decent sized nuke should have taken the bomber out as well. Plus once the blast cleared, the scout vehicle on the ground actually showed empty air where the saucer used to be for a moment. The only way to explain that is the nuke knocked the saucer up several hundred feet and out of view of the scout's periscope for a minute.

[cmdrjones]

The nuke on the saucer is a bit inconsistent. As close as the B2 got to the thing, any decent sized nuke should have taken the bomber out as well. Plus once the blast cleared, the scout vehicle on the ground actually showed empty air where the saucer used to be for a moment. The only way to explain that is the nuke knocked the saucer up several hundred feet and out of view of the scout's periscope for a minute.

http://www.ultimax.com/whitepapers/1996_3.html

[Elheru Aran]

That is actually a fairly impressive article... but I don't see anything... OK, it's "Hole 15". W80 warhead on a cruise missile, 200 kilotons max. That's small change for Star Wars. Fighter-level weapons.

[cmdrjones]

That is actually a fairly impressive article... but I don't see anything... OK, it's "Hole 15". W80 warhead on a cruise missile, 200 kilotons max. That's small change for Star Wars. Fighter-level weapons.

So, we know they can shrug off the small stuff.... That means they'll have to break out MTLs and HTLs to rid themselves of the ID4 saucers... and that's BEFORE any tech exchange.

It's looking as if this alliance will give the republic some trouble IF they play their cards right.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Now that I think about it, the ID4 Space Locusts might actually be able to take on SW ships, based on size alone. They had at least 36 of their fuck-off huge saucers (15 miles across, or 180 cubic miles of sihp, roughly), and each one was shielded, and could (as that article pointed out) accelerate enough to enter Earth's atmosphere in, what, 20 minutes from "they're coming" to "oh fuck they're here?" Then they manage to hover those ships a couple of miles off the ground. That's some insane energy generation required right there. Consider that each of those ships is not only about a third again longer than an SSD but are immeasurably more massive as well.

Strangely it's rather like the issue with using scalings from the Death Star. If we go by what the actual ships do, it's pretty impressive, if we calc based on the Mothership it's stunning. If their weapons technology and shielding are even a tenth as impressive as their shipbuilding, power generatio and sublight engines have to be, they could be a real thorn in the Republics side, especially knowing they need to fight and having five years to prepare.

[Elheru Aran]

Yeah. I don't think anybody ever contended it would be a total cakewalk for Star Wars... with this large of an assemblage of aliens, you're going to have some high-level opponents. Frankly, I would probably put the ID4 aliens over Borg and pretty much everybody else in space (except perhaps the Psychlos, I have no knowledge of their space capabilities other than the teleportation thing).

On ground is another matter. You do have one really good ground combatant there-- the Mimics. They're fast, powerful, and have energy and explosive weapons as well as the whole steel Tasmanian devil attack move. Bugs are stupid (unless you're talking book version, which were a lot more competent). Dunno about Psychlos but they were idiots. We have no data on the ID4 aliens' capabilities as all we saw were landing forces being staged, no demonstration of ground weapons or anything. The Slither and other mind-control bugs don't really have significantly greater than humanoid capabilities as far as I recall. The Battle:Los Angeles aliens weren't that much more exceptional than modern US military. Never watched Battleship, so no idea there. The Decepticons are useful for shock value and spying, but individually they aren't terribly powerful. If they're capable of assimilating SW tech, well and good for them, but there has been no indication as far as I know that they do that rather than simply emulating other races. The War of the Worlds walkers... are an interesting challenge, but aren't terribly intimidating.

Really your three strongest forces are the Kryptonians (albeit assuming that they have been exposed to Earthlike atmosphere and a yellow sun and can maintain the power they gain from this exposure), the Mimics, and the ID4 Aliens. Borg have potential, but those three are the ones you should really be counting on long term in your actual offensive strategy. The rest are cannon fodder at best.

EF... and they got shot down by a bunch of yahoos in fighter jets once they got the Mothership down by hacking it with an Apple laptop. We would basically have to ignore the stupid in that movie. They get points on their tech, but we never really see it applied in a logical manner (or with physically realistic effects-- merely bringing those saucers into atmosphere should have been horrendously destructive on its own).

[Eternal_Freedom]

Yeah we have to ignore the stupidity. I'm chalking that up to looking only at human military tech and thinking "pfft, walkover time." With 5 years warning and some decent intel on the Republic, I would hope that sort of stupidity would dissappear.

AS for the Bugs....yeah they'd be fairly useless except as a terror weapon. Imagine landing a colony of them on Coruscant at the start of the five years and letting them grow in secret.

[Borgholio]

http://www.ultimax.com/whitepapers/1996_3.html

Thanks for the link, very interesting reading!

if we calc based on the Mothership it's stunning.

Does the mothership even have shields? It appeared to be struck by a satellite with no apparent shield effect when it entered Earth orbit. Or maybe the shields were just down, that's a simple explanation. It is still pretty massive though, 1/4 the mass of our moon and over 500km in diameter. That's 3 times the size of the first Death Star. So even without shields, it'll still be able to take a hell of a beating just due to sheer mass.

[cmdrjones]

Well, yes, I'd tend to assume one cube vs. a galactic civilization is going to lose.

Edit: My point is just that numbers are going to have to come from a source that is canon, whatever those numbers may be.

Assuming they jsut drive straight ahead and die gloriously rather than cheat as I outlined above