Ultimate Star Wars book

[Purple]

Out of curiosity why should planning matter? If the future is truly set in stone for a force user to look at than there really is no difference between improvisation and a plan from that force users perspective. He knows how your improvising minds dice will fall even before you know that you are going to cast them.

[Galvatron]

Adam, obviously any new Thrawn story would have to be modified to fit the new continuity. If that means Luke doesn't get his love interest and Thrawn can't dangle the Solo twins in front of C'baoth as motivation, so be it. Zahn will just have to adapt. Does that make any sense?

Both of those things were fundamental to the story. Without Jaina and Jacen as targets, why would the Norghi target Leia? And without them going after Leia there would be no way for them to realize that she is Vader's daughter and work with her. And without that there is no bodyguard backstab and no way for Thrawn to die. Similarly with Mara, without a sense of attraction, the mixed emotions she felt with regard to Luke would be difficult to do well. Rewriting the stories to fit the current continuity would mean destroying almost the entire plot.

So destroy the entire plot. I can live with that. It doesn't mean Thrawn can't come back to wreak havoc and Mara Jade can't try to kill Luke. Obviously, the storyline and the outcomes would need to be changed to fit the new continuity.

[Elheru Aran]

For example, you could well have Thrawn show up to fight the fledgling New Republic and (maybe?) defeating them before he gets assassinated, which destabilizes and fragments the rest of the Empire even further. The new trilogy is, what, 20-something years after the OT, right? Plenty of time in there to have a bunch of dramatic incidents. The Emperor and Vader are dead, the Rebels just won a big victory, Luke is a Jedi in his own right. That's the foundation where you can start, and we now have a general idea of how they wind up 20-something years later. So it's just a matter of connecting the dots between A and Z, but there aren't actually a whole lot of dots, so we just have to supply them ourselves.

[Galvatron]

Right. In the grand scheme of the old EU, Thrawn's campaign didn't end up being nearly as significant as the resurrected Emperor or the Yuuzhan Vong invasion. He was just a moderately successful bad guy who got a trilogy of books after years of no Star Wars at all. He can serve the same purpose in the new EU, just without all the hype of being the big bad of the "sequel trilogy that will never be made."

[The Romulan Republic]

From what I've read around the internet lately, the ruined ships seen in the recent trailer are the result of a battle between the New Republic and remnants of the Empire shortly after Return of the Jedi. Perhaps the new version of Thrawn could be the Imperial commander at that battle, who lead what was left of the Imperial fleet in a failed final stand against the New Republic.

[Galvatron]

What if he also says that the maximum power of their heavy turbolasers is around 200 megatons? Will that satisfy you?

[The Romulan Republic]

What does that have to do with what I just posted?

Though yeah, I'd like it if Star Wars firepower was dialled down. It makes Star Trek vs Star Wars a debate, which is much more fun and interesting regardless of which side you favour than a forgone conclusion.

[The Romulan Republic]

Though I' confess that I'd also approve if they increased the firepower, just because of the sense of scale it would give Star Wars.

[Thanas]

The Jedi only failed to detect the creation of the Clone Army because of the Sith. Something Thrawn doesn't have. That was right in the movie. The Jedi were shocked to have not detected it, indicating that their power had weakened far more than even Yoda had suspected.

They also missed the buildup of the Seperatists, they missed Dooku falling to the dark side, they missed the largest corporations preparing against them, they missed Geneosis building an army. All of that took years of planning. They missed all of that. Heck, they even missed the construction of the death star.

The Rebellion is only really successful once Luke returns and begins using the Force.

There is no evidence that he ever used anything to counter precog and even less evidence that he was in any way involved with assembling the fleet and planning the strike.

While they did steal the Death Star plans on their own, Vader was right on them and was in the process of dealing with them. It was only when Luke and Obi-Wan got involved that he was properly foiled. Similarly, above the Death Star, Vader easily recognized the problem involving the exhaust port. It's not like he did a detailed technical analysis. He simply knew there was danger.

Or he simply wasn't as arrogant as Tarkin. Note that others also argue for taking countermeasures.

As for finding the Rebels on Hoth, as soon as Vader has any indication of where to look, he immediately knows with certainty that Luke is there.

Because he feels him in the force, not any precog. If Vader had that kind of precog he wouldn't make the mistake of having the fleet come out of hyperspace too soon.

As for the Emperor, he fell for victory disease. Unlike Yoda, who recognized the instability of his position of power, the Emperor was so confident in his ability to predict the future that he failed to ever consider that he would miss something. And that something he missed was that Luke, merely by existing, was in effect creating a shroud of the Light Side that clouded Palpatine in much the same fashion as the Dark Side had done against the Jedi.

BULLSHIT. Show evidence for this.

This also occurred to Darth Vader over Yavin, he was so focused on his son, that he failed to be aware of the Falcon's appearance.

Another argument against precog if there ever was one.

This is true. But it is also non-canon now. My point was that it doesn't fit with what we see in higher canon. A Jedi should be able to detect such plans.

Bullshit. There is no precog. None at all. And there is no evidence for it at all within the movies. Everything can be explained without trying to invent some sort of precognition ability that is never shown, never explained and is completely unnecessary to assume to boot.

[Galvatron]

What does that have to do with what I just posted?

Though yeah, I'd like it if Star Wars firepower was dialled down. It makes Star Trek vs Star Wars a debate, which is much more fun and interesting regardless of which side you favour than a forgone conclusion.

I'd be happier if the debate had no bearing on the matter at all. Some fans seems to prioritize combing both franchises for an edge over the other at the expense of the story.

[Elheru Aran]

Yeah, Saxton always said that he didn't care about the debates, the only reason he put numbers in the AOTC ICS was because he could and he was tired of doing the math. He considered the numbers he put down reasonable extrapolations from visual effects onscreen that had been computed previously such as the DSI superlaser and what not. To him, the debate was a silly waste of time that he never participated in.

[Adam Reynolds]

Out of curiosity why should planning matter? If the future is truly set in stone for a force user to look at than there really is no difference between improvisation and a plan from that force users perspective. He knows how your improvising minds dice will fall even before you know that you are going to cast them.

It's because part of their ability to see the future depend on being able to read the minds of their enemies. This was mentioned as a major reason why Order 66 was successful. While this is hardly the only reason, and improvised events can also be detected, it is presumably harder.

For example, you could well have Thrawn show up to fight the fledgling New Republic and (maybe?) defeating them before he gets assassinated, which destabilizes and fragments the rest of the Empire even further. The new trilogy is, what, 20-something years after the OT, right? Plenty of time in there to have a bunch of dramatic incidents. The Emperor and Vader are dead, the Rebels just won a big victory, Luke is a Jedi in his own right. That's the foundation where you can start, and we now have a general idea of how they wind up 20-something years later. So it's just a matter of connecting the dots between A and Z, but there aren't actually a whole lot of dots, so we just have to supply them ourselves.

Though it would obviously have to be written later, which gives it the same problem as the prequels or Clone Wars. Those both had the issue that events that were supposed to be dramatic often weren't because we knew who would live or die. And my earlier point was that his entire assassination plot wouldn't work anymore. What made it work so well was that Thrawn had no idea that Leia was Vader's daughter or that the Norghi could detect this by smell. So there was no way for him to determine that the Norghi would betray him.

From what I've read around the internet lately, the ruined ships seen in the recent trailer are the result of a battle between the New Republic and remnants of the Empire shortly after Return of the Jedi. Perhaps the new version of Thrawn could be the Imperial commander at that battle, who lead what was left of the Imperial fleet in a failed final stand against the New Republic.

While you could destroy the entire plot and simply have Thrawn as another Imperial officer who loses somewhat easily at Jakku*, that would likely upset fans as much as not having him. This battle will be featured in the new Battlefront game as the first set of DLC, which is where the details about it came from.
* Which must happen given that we see a wrecked Super Star Destroyer.

Right. In the grand scheme of the old EU, Thrawn's campaign didn't end up being nearly as significant as the resurrected Emperor or the Yuuzhan Vong invasion. He was just a moderately successful bad guy who got a trilogy of books after years of no Star Wars at all. He can serve the same purpose in the new EU, just without all the hype of being the big bad of the "sequel trilogy that will never be made."

This is true, but both of those plots were awful. Thrawn did have the advantage of being different.

[The Romulan Republic]

From what I've read around the internet lately, the ruined ships seen in the recent trailer are the result of a battle between the New Republic and remnants of the Empire shortly after Return of the Jedi. Perhaps the new version of Thrawn could be the Imperial commander at that battle, who lead what was left of the Imperial fleet in a failed final stand against the New Republic.

While you could destroy the entire plot and simply have Thrawn as another Imperial officer who loses somewhat easily at Jakku*, that would likely upset fans as much as not having him. This battle will be featured in the new Battlefront game as the first set of DLC, which is where the details about it came from.
* Which must happen given that we see a wrecked Super Star Destroyer.

The original Thrawn lost too. It doesn't matter if he fails as long as he seems competent and threatening and puts up a good fight before going down.

I read somewhere that Jakku is supposed to be a year after Endor, I think. So you could have Thrawn rallying the Imperial fleet and running a campaign against them for a year before finally being cornered and overwhelmed by a major New Republic effort at Jakku.

Although I have another idea... what if Thrawn, in this reality, never fought the New Republic at all? It seems that the old Empire fell quite quickly. What if Thrawn recognized that saving the Empire was impossible and instead became an independent warlord or even joined the New Republic to take it over from within, Palpatine-style?

[Adam Reynolds]

They also missed the buildup of the Seperatists, they missed Dooku falling to the dark side, they missed the largest corporations preparing against them, they missed Geneosis building an army. All of that took years of planning. They missed all of that. Heck, they even missed the construction of the death star.

As I said, that was all because of the Dark Side clouding their ability to see. As Thrawn wouldn't have this in his favor, he wouldn't be able to rely on it to weaken Luke.

From Attack of the Clones:

Yoda: Blind we are, if the creation of this clone army, we could not see/

Mace Windu: I think it is time to inform the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.

Yoda: Only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness If informed the Senate is, multiply our adversaries will.

Dooku: The Dark Side of the Force has clouded their vision my friend.

Dooku said largely the same thing. While it could be argued that he was lying, everything else he stated in that scene was absolutely true(despite Yoda's protests to the contrary).

There is no evidence that he ever used anything to counter precog and even less evidence that he was in any way involved with assembling the fleet and planning the strike.

Which is why the Emperor knew it was occurring. He allowed the fleet to form as it was easier to destroy it all at once over Endor than having to engage it throughout the galaxy. When fighting an insurgency, if you can convince them to attack you directly, it is a great victory. American forces in Vietnam actually did better during the Tet Offensive than they had previously, scoring high kill ratios.

Or he simply wasn't as arrogant as Tarkin. Note that others also argue for taking countermeasures.

The other Imperial officer argued that it might be prudent to evacuate. Vader knew spesifically what the threat was and how to stop it. It was only when his attention was focused on a fellow Jedi that he failed to see what was coming and do something about it.

Because he feels him in the force, not any precog. If Vader had that kind of precog he wouldn't make the mistake of having the fleet come out of hyperspace too soon.

That was Ozzel's mistake, not Vader's, something Ozzel paid for with his life. And Vader instantly knew that it wouldn't work, even before Veers told him.

BULLSHIT. Show evidence for this.

We know that the Jedi were clouded in the Force by the reemergence of the Sith. It is only logical that such a dynamic could work both ways. In an era in which the Jedi were all but extinct, the Dark Side would have been at its height. Even a relatively small impact(like Luke/Leia killing Jabba, symbolizing that Jedi light had returned to burn away the darkness) would cause ripples in the Force that would cloud the water just enough to make Palpatine lose.

Bullshit. There is no precog. None at all. And there is no evidence for it at all within the movies. Everything can be explained without trying to invent some sort of precognition ability that is never shown, never explained and is completely unnecessary to assume to boot.

So what were Anakin's dreams? What about Luke's vision on Bespin? What were those if not precog?

[Adam Reynolds]

The original Thrawn lost too. It doesn't matter if he fails as long as he seems competent and threatening and puts up a good fight before going down.

I read somewhere that Jakku is supposed to be a year after Endor, I think. So you could have Thrawn rallying the Imperial fleet and running a campaign against them for a year before finally being cornered and overwhelmed by a major New Republic effort at Jakku.

That could be possible, especially if he were assassinated in a similar fashion to the original series by a threat he had never expected. Mara Jade might actually work well in that role, seeing that the Empire had already lost and that there was no longer any point fighting. Though how she was turned would be difficult. One possibility was that she was turned by Leia in some capacity, possibly relating to Mara working for Vader rather than the Emperor directly.

Although I have another idea... what if Thrawn, in this reality, never fought the New Republic at all? It seems that the old Empire fell quite quickly. What if Thrawn recognized that saving the Empire was impossible and instead became an independent warlord or even joined the New Republic to take it over from within, Palpatine-style?

How could that possibly work without Luke detecting his intent?

And Thrawn largely seemed to also fit with preparing the galaxy for the Yuzhan Vong. Without that it would be odd for him to do what he did. Though perhaps this could be changed to preparing the galaxy for the new Sith(or whoever they are).

[The Romulan Republic]

That could be possible, especially if he were assassinated in a similar fashion to the original series by a threat he had never expected. Mara Jade might actually work well in that role, seeing that the Empire had already lost and that there was no longer any point fighting. Though how she was turned would be difficult. One possibility was that she was turned by Leia in some capacity, possibly relating to Mara working for Vader rather than the Emperor directly.

Interesting.

How could that possibly work without Luke detecting his intent?

The Jedis' senses aren't perfect. Jedi are still people, not gods.

And if Luke did sense his plans, so what? He'd have to prove it, unless the New Republic is a Jedi theocracy or something like that.

And Thrawn largely seemed to also fit with preparing the galaxy for the Yuzhan Vong. Without that it would be odd for him to do what he did. Though perhaps this could be changed to preparing the galaxy for the new Sith(or whoever they are).

Perhaps Thrawn wants to protect the galaxy from internal threats. Perhaps he believes in sacrificing liberty for the sake of order. Maybe he witnessed some of the horror of the Clone Wars, and the corruption before them, and it convinced him that Palpatine was the lesser evil.

[Adam Reynolds]

The Jedis' senses aren't perfect. Jedi are still people, not gods.

And if Luke did sense his plans, so what? He'd have to prove it, unless the New Republic is a Jedi theocracy or something like that.

Unlike Palpatine, who was able to cloak his intentions in the Force, Thrawn would be unable to do this and be much more likely to be caught by Luke. Though perhaps events like this lead to Spoiler

Luke going into exile. And presumably also having something to do with why the New Republic isn't opposing the First Order directly.

Perhaps Thrawn wants to protect the galaxy from internal threats. Perhaps he believes in sacrificing liberty for the sake of order. Maybe he witnessed some of the horror of the Clone Wars, and the corruption before them, and it convinced him that Palpatine was the lesser evil.

That would be an interesting concept for an antagonist in Star Wars in the aftermath of the Empire. In a sense Mara Jade argued the same thing in Survivor's Quest. Though she agreed the Palpatine was evil, she felt that his Empire really was the lesser evil in that they kept the galaxy in line.

And given something analogous to Spectre of the Past, in which virtually the entirety of the New Republic falls apart over the Camas Document Crisis, such a character would have a point. And whatever happens that leads to the creation of the First Order for the new movies might also fit this.

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't agree with such thinking. Its apologism for tyranny at its worst. And I'd like to see a worthwhile, competent New Republic for a change. But even though I don't agree with such thinking, it is very common and could make a decent motive for a villain who is't just selfish or mindlessly evil.

[Galvatron]

Is this Battle of Jakku supposed to be the final battle against the Empire? If not, is there some reason why Thrawn can't show up five years after ROTJ just like he did before? And since when is Jedi precognition some insurmountable ability? I always thought their long-term precog was hazy at best, even for the most powerful masters, and their short term precog was more like Spider-Man's spider sense.

[Balrog]

Bullshit. There is no precog. None at all. And there is no evidence for it at all within the movies. Everything can be explained without trying to invent some sort of precognition ability that is never shown, never explained and is completely unnecessary to assume to boot.

Err, what? Thanas I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding your argument, but there clearly is precognition in the movies. Whether it's simply meditating to see a glimpse of the far future or in battle to see what's immediately about to happen.

I mean, we can argue about how good Force precognition is, depending on the era and how powerful a person is in the Force and such, but it's clearly there.

[Crazedwraith]

Doesn't Qui-Gin literally attribute Anakin's quick reflexes to precognition in TPM? Or was that one of the books?

[Lord Revan]

Doesn't Qui-Gin literally attribute Anakin's quick reflexes to precognition in TPM? Or was that one of the books?

"he sees things before they happen, that's why he appears to have fast reflexes" or words to that effect from TPM when Qui-Gon Jinn was speaking to to Shmi about Anakin.

so assuming Thanas isn't trying to be sarcastic, he is most definetly wrong.

[Purple]

Or he is trying to describe it in simple terms to someone who probably has neither the time or knowledge to understand complex force use theory.

[Thanas]

Doesn't Qui-Gin literally attribute Anakin's quick reflexes to precognition in TPM? Or was that one of the books?

"he sees things before they happen, that's why he appears to have fast reflexes" or words to that effect from TPM when Qui-Gon Jinn was speaking to to Shmi about Anakin.

so assuming Thanas isn't trying to be sarcastic, he is most definetly wrong.

No, I am not denying that precog is a thing for quick actions in high-stress environments. What I am denying is the massive no-limits fallacy that claims that it also offers universal insights into vast strategic plans. In essence, I believe that it allows Jedi to deflect things like blaster bolts and that it might even allow them stuff on a small-unit scale like knowing where to direct the torpedoes at. What I do not, not for one second, believe is that it allows a force user to know who is plotting against him and what the plans of his strategical opponent are. In short, it is not a maphack.

[Lord Revan]

Something old EU did well IMHO is that Jedi foresight becomes less and less accurate further from "here and now" you go. That's why Jedi are speaking that they sense "a disturbence in the Force" or "something troubling" instead of giving the exact thing, while they do have foresight it's far from exact so they know that "something bad" might happen in the future but not what form it will take or possibly even when it will happen.

Granted some here treat Jedi foresight and precog like trek fanatics treat borg addaption in that it's perfect and undefeatble.