Luke and Leia's midichlorian count

[The Romulan Republic]

Hell, even Palpatine should have taken notice. The idea that she received some form of cadet training (basic or otherwise) seems far more reasonable than "she has latent Force powers that no-one noticed, despite her working with some of the most powerful Force-users of the era."

Maybe they did not notice because they were being overshadowed by the other massively more powerful and potent force using sith lord that was also working with them? For all we've seen in cannon the jedi don't seem to have a knack for sensing force users once they grow of age.

That doesn't explain Palpatine, or indeed Anakin, not noticing anything.

Besides, in the prequels we have no indication whatever that she was any Force abilities, latent or otherwise. Her having some basic training is far more reasonable than yet another Force user being involved.

This is a good point, but perhaps Padme was a low-level Force sensitive individual? Ie, not enough to be worth the notice of a Jedi or Sith, but just enough to give her a slight edge over the average person? Is that possible?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Possible, but frankly unnecessary when a much more likely explanation of "she received some kind of basic training prior to TPM" and "possibly received more advanced training between then and AOTC" is present. She clearly knew what to do with blasters in combat, since she was leading one of the strike teams at the palace.

[Borgholio]

Yeah I'm not sure if having Force talent weak enough to escape the notice of a Jedi or Sith would actually benefit you in any way. Doesn't make much sense to me that you can use the Force (even if it's subconscious) without someone picking up on it. Take Luke during the trench run for instance. He barely knew anything about controlling the Force...his flight through the trench was as much instinct and feeling as Anakin's pod race was. And yet Vader sensed it immediately from a fair distance away, and even commented that the Force was strong with this one.

[Alyrium Denryle]

This is a good point, but perhaps Padme was a low-level Force sensitive individual? Ie, not enough to be worth the notice of a Jedi or Sith, but just enough to give her a slight edge over the average person? Is that possible?

Possible, but unnecessary unless you really want to reach. I will repeat for your benefit.

She had look-alike decoy/bodyguards, and hidden compartments in her chairs that held blasters. Either she was worried--well in advance of the invasion--about assassination attempts, or the apparatus of her government had long experience with the same and instituted protocols such that they were prepared for the eventuality. Such as making sure body-doubles existed, that the Monarch could use a blaster, and that there were hidden weapons compartments. Just in case their own forces failed.

They probably fold basic self defense into their Legislative Youth Program "because this is a dangerous galaxy that was left with a weak central government after the Ruusan Reformation. There is no standing galactic military, and you never know when some overgrown merchant guild will land an army for no reason but to exploit our natural resources. Sometimes diplomacy fails. So pick up that blaster and learn how to save your own skin"

[The Romulan Republic]

Is the Ruusan Reformation still canon?

Anyway, I get the point, though I guess I didn't see the pre-Clone Wars Republic as that dangerous, excepting backwater shit holes like Tatooine anyway.

[Galvatron]

Is the Ruusan Reformation still canon?

I've been wondering the same thing. It was only devised to reconcile 1000 years with 1000 generations, but quite frankly, I'd rather it be revealed that the Sith actually ruled the galaxy for a brief time (as Palpatine said) and lost it due to in-fighting and because they failed to exterminate the Jedi first. That would be what set in motion their master plan to not repeat the mistakes of the past. Hence the Rule of Two and Order 66.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Is the Ruusan Reformation still canon?

Anyway, I get the point, though I guess I didn't see the pre-Clone Wars Republic as that dangerous, excepting backwater shit holes like Tatooine anyway.

As far as I can tell, it is, or close enough to it. Darth Bane is definitely canon, the 1000 years thing is definitely canon. Ergo, Ruusan or something like it is still Canon.

[Imperial Overlord]

She had look-alike decoy/bodyguards, and hidden compartments in her chairs that held blasters. Either she was worried--well in advance of the invasion--about assassination attempts, or the apparatus of her government had long experience with the same and instituted protocols such that they were prepared for the eventuality. Such as making sure body-doubles existed, that the Monarch could use a blaster, and that there were hidden weapons compartments. Just in case their own forces failed.

They probably fold basic self defense into their Legislative Youth Program "because this is a dangerous galaxy that was left with a weak central government after the Ruusan Reformation. There is no standing galactic military, and you never know when some overgrown merchant guild will land an army for no reason but to exploit our natural resources. Sometimes diplomacy fails. So pick up that blaster and learn how to save your own skin"

That's possible, but don't forget how old Galactic Civilization is. The Republic has existed for somewhere in the neighborhood of 25,000 with the last major change coming 1,000 years back. That's a lot of time for traditions to accumulate. Practices from more violent times might linger because they have the force of tradion, perhaps reinforced that every couple of thousand years they come in useful. "No Queen of Naboo has needed these in the last 7,000 years but 15,000 years ago 3 Queen called upon these hidden blasters in the span of a mere 107 years. You'll probably never need them, but we will always have them."

[Alyrium Denryle]

She had look-alike decoy/bodyguards, and hidden compartments in her chairs that held blasters. Either she was worried--well in advance of the invasion--about assassination attempts, or the apparatus of her government had long experience with the same and instituted protocols such that they were prepared for the eventuality. Such as making sure body-doubles existed, that the Monarch could use a blaster, and that there were hidden weapons compartments. Just in case their own forces failed.

They probably fold basic self defense into their Legislative Youth Program "because this is a dangerous galaxy that was left with a weak central government after the Ruusan Reformation. There is no standing galactic military, and you never know when some overgrown merchant guild will land an army for no reason but to exploit our natural resources. Sometimes diplomacy fails. So pick up that blaster and learn how to save your own skin"

That's possible, but don't forget how old Galactic Civilization is. The Republic has existed for somewhere in the neighborhood of 25,000 with the last major change coming 1,000 years back. That's a lot of time for traditions to accumulate. Practices from more violent times might linger because they have the force of tradion, perhaps reinforced that every couple of thousand years they come in useful. "No Queen of Naboo has needed these in the last 7,000 years but 15,000 years ago 3 Queen called upon these hidden blasters in the span of a mere 107 years. You'll probably never need them, but we will always have them."

Also entirely reasonable. There are traditions that can stick around a looooooong god damn time, and without a whole lot of knowledge about Naboo history it is hard to say exactly why she needed body doubles, hidden blasters, and combat training. But she had all three, and did need them.

Worries about assassination attempts dont need to be particularly recent. They can in fact be hundreds or even thousands of years old, and the countermeasures might well stick around due to pure Traditional Inertia.

[Havok]

That, and Padme has some pretty impressive combat abilities for a young politician with, so far as I know, no military or law enforcement training. Unless its standard for Naboo to train its politicians in combat (which seems unlikely) or Padme went out of her way to learn that stuff in between running a planet/being a senator, that suggests an inherent talent beyond what most people possess.

Fuck it. Let's just say Han and Wedge were Jedi material then. I guess the muggles of the GFFA aren't allowed any shining moments after all.

The difference being that presumably Han and Wedge spent years perfecting their piloting skills, while Padme was specifically groomed for politics. Granted she could have been groomed to just be a good leader in general and she certainly wasn't a coward.

However my reasoning has been that if she was a Force sensitive and a powerful one, it explains Luke being such a badass and most importantly for myself, why she died. Her connection with Anakin was beyond the physical and mental.

[Havok]

Also keep in mind, having a high, even the highest midi count ever, doesn't lead= auto detect the second you meet a Jedi. Qui-Gon had to confirm what he suspected. It wasn't until Shmi told him that there was no father that he became a vergence and possibly The Chosen One in his mind.

[Zixinus]

There is an alternative reason why Padmé would be trained in blaster-use: their relationship with the Gungans. The Gungans lived underwater, in another habitat-sphere than the humans. Clashes between the two existed and mentioned in the movie (don't recall how specifically). It is possible that one of the reasons she was trained to defend herself was to be able to handle herself if another such clash would happen in her presence.

It was sort-of tied in with the later EU why Palpatine had such disdain and distrusts of non-humans. Donnu whether that was kept.

[Alyrium Denryle]

The difference being that presumably Han and Wedge spent years perfecting their piloting skills, while Padme was specifically groomed for politics. Granted she could have been groomed to just be a good leader in general and she certainly wasn't a coward.

And it is equally evident that there is a streak of paranoia in the naboo political system. One that means she has combat training. It would not need to be a whole lot, combined with some practice, to get pretty good at it.

However my reasoning has been that if she was a Force sensitive and a powerful one, it explains Luke being such a badass

His grandfather was The Force, and there is no reason to think force sensitivity dilutes.

and most importantly for myself, why she died. Her connection with Anakin was beyond the physical and mental.

The force connects all living things, not just force sensitives. All that is required is for Anakin to subconsciously leach her life away while he is being operated on without anesthesia or proper life support after being exposed to lethal gases dismembered and set on fire. Or for the emperor to do it.

[The Romulan Republic]

I prefer to think that Padme's death was a combination of exhaustion/despair/physical injury (in part a less melodramatic way of saying she lost the will to live) plus medical incompetence.

[Replicant]

Possible, but frankly unnecessary when a much more likely explanation of "she received some kind of basic training prior to TPM" and "possibly received more advanced training between then and AOTC" is present. She clearly knew what to do with blasters in combat, since she was leading one of the strike teams at the palace.

Of course Padme had military training. Whether or not Naboo was a "peace loving" world there was still enough turmoil and danger for a very elaborate body double system to be in place to protect from assassination.

[Irbis]

Of course Padme had military training. Whether or not Naboo was a "peace loving" world there was still enough turmoil and danger for a very elaborate body double system to be in place to protect from assassination.

Only if you sneak in frankly baseless assumption that the body double system had anything to do with potential assassinations and not, say, having someone to perform boring diplomatic duties while monarch is busy doing something else. Do note that none of the body doubles show any good combat skills which would be stupid if they were supposed to be the first ones in the line of fire.

If fact, aren't the only things Sabé was used for in the movies was talking to Gunray and Boss Nass? She was with one of the resistance teams, but it was the one that took safe, long route, Amidala was in the one that actually walked into the center of resistance facing greatest threat. That doesn't gel with the whole 'danger magnet' idea.

Then, there is bombastic declaration of the handmaidens that they will fight for Amidala, one that makes no sense if it's in fact their job, but one showing spirit of scared, defenceless girls trying to prop up their (equally lost) leader. The only one around Padme that actually looks competent and experienced in fight is Panaka, not the girls.

They are not callous. Jesus Fucking Christ. Stagnated sure, but not callous. They have no attachments because attachments are a wedge for the dark side. Think of it this way, they can love, but it has to be a selfless love. Not unconditional, not healthy. Selfless. Any love they feel has to be 100% about the other person, and they have to be willing to sever or lose the relationship, because if they are not it creates conflict. Resentment, fear, grief etc that can easily draw them into a dark-side death spiral.

If you look at last 1000 years of human history, it's actually forced celibate that destabilizes and undermines human beings. People with good, stable relationships are healthy, balanced and less prone to the whole emotional outbursts, anger, and lack of rage management thing. And I doubt it's unique to humans, somehow all earthly even semi-intelligent animals we know of that actually managed to build any semblance of civilization or society are social ones, not solitary and atomised.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Only if you sneak in frankly baseless assumption that the body double system had anything to do with potential assassinations and not, say, having someone to perform boring diplomatic duties while monarch is busy doing something else. Do note that none of the body doubles show any good combat skills which would be stupid if they were supposed to be the first ones in the line of fire.

Only if you want to ignore the fact that Queen Amidala, when revealing herself to the gungans, flat out said that her body doubles were bodyguards. We also see the queen double shooting competently, and in AoTC Corde the Body Double was specifically placed on the senatorial ship to decoy a suspected assassination attempt.

Your memory is hilariously selective.

If you look at last 1000 years of human history, it's actually forced celibate that destabilizes and undermines human beings.

Or maybe you just cannot help yourself, and feel compelled to distort people's arguments? Or is this a language-barrier thing?

They are not celibate. They are unattached. There is a difference. Hooking up on Grindr would, oddly enough, be OK.

But Anakin is an object lesson in why they try to avoid attachments. They foreshadow it in TPM. He was afraid to lose his mother. Yoda's words are carefully considered there. Anakin did not just miss his mother, that was normal. He was afraid to the point of distraction that something would happen to her in his absence, but not for her own sake. For his. Yoda did not say "afraid something will happen to her", thus centering the focus around Anakin's mom and her best interests. He said "afraid to lose her", centering on Anakin dependence on his mother.

He has the sort of love for his mother (and later Padme), that is centered around HIS psychological needs, not the other persons needs, and it causes him to react irrationally and in a self-destructive manner.

It is the difference between

1) "X is a wonderful person and does not deserve to suffer. It is wrong that you have robbed X of their life. I will perform justice"

and

2) "X is the most wonderful thing that has ever happened to me, how dare you kill X and take X from me. I will make you pay"

In actual human relationships, both reactions are psychologically healthy (the first is even unusually even-handed. Kill a police officers wife in front of them and see if they react that way). A Jedi cannot afford 2

People with good, stable relationships are healthy, balanced and less prone to the whole emotional outbursts, anger, and lack of rage management thing.

We dont live in a universe where there are force sensitives who can enter a Dark Side Of Force feedback loop if certain emotions get too prominent.

We dont live in a turbulent galaxy with bounty hunters who can and will be hired by the enemies personal and political to make our lives miserable, orbital bombardment that can turn our homeworld to glass, and dark-side crazed super-human nutjobs who WILL go after our families in order to make us suffer and turn to the dark side.

A normal well-adjusted person will want revenge if someone kills their mother. Or their wife. Or turns their home into a molten hellscape from orbit.

A Jedi cannot afford to want revenge, because that leads into a Dark Side feedback loop.

[Q99]

To go over my view:
-Luke and Leia's counts were undoubtably high, though not quite Anakin high.

-Force users normally only sense trained ability/ability in use. They can likely sense potential, but not as casually.

-In the EU, even a few generations down, Skywalkers tended to be at the very high end of the force user curve (Cade).

[The Romulan Republic]

Only if you sneak in frankly baseless assumption that the body double system had anything to do with potential assassinations and not, say, having someone to perform boring diplomatic duties while monarch is busy doing something else. Do note that none of the body doubles show any good combat skills which would be stupid if they were supposed to be the first ones in the line of fire.

Only if you want to ignore the fact that Queen Amidala, when revealing herself to the gungans, flat out said that her body doubles were bodyguards. We also see the queen double shooting competently, and in AoTC Corde the Body Double was specifically placed on the senatorial ship to decoy a suspected assassination attempt.

Your memory is hilariously selective.

If you look at last 1000 years of human history, it's actually forced celibate that destabilizes and undermines human beings.

Or maybe you just cannot help yourself, and feel compelled to distort people's arguments? Or is this a language-barrier thing?

They are not celibate. They are unattached. There is a difference. Hooking up on Grindr would, oddly enough, be OK.

But Anakin is an object lesson in why they try to avoid attachments. They foreshadow it in TPM. He was afraid to lose his mother. Yoda's words are carefully considered there. Anakin did not just miss his mother, that was normal. He was afraid to the point of distraction that something would happen to her in his absence, but not for her own sake. For his. Yoda did not say "afraid something will happen to her", thus centering the focus around Anakin's mom and her best interests. He said "afraid to lose her", centering on Anakin dependence on his mother.

He has the sort of love for his mother (and later Padme), that is centered around HIS psychological needs, not the other persons needs, and it causes him to react irrationally and in a self-destructive manner.

It is the difference between

1) "X is a wonderful person and does not deserve to suffer. It is wrong that you have robbed X of their life. I will perform justice"

and

2) "X is the most wonderful thing that has ever happened to me, how dare you kill X and take X from me. I will make you pay"

In actual human relationships, both reactions are psychologically healthy (the first is even unusually even-handed. Kill a police officers wife in front of them and see if they react that way). A Jedi cannot afford 2

People with good, stable relationships are healthy, balanced and less prone to the whole emotional outbursts, anger, and lack of rage management thing.

We dont live in a universe where there are force sensitives who can enter a Dark Side Of Force feedback loop if certain emotions get too prominent.

We dont live in a turbulent galaxy with bounty hunters who can and will be hired by the enemies personal and political to make our lives miserable, orbital bombardment that can turn our homeworld to glass, and dark-side crazed super-human nutjobs who WILL go after our families in order to make us suffer and turn to the dark side.

A normal well-adjusted person will want revenge if someone kills their mother. Or their wife. Or turns their home into a molten hellscape from orbit.

A Jedi cannot afford to want revenge, because that leads into a Dark Side feedback loop.

The problem with saying that a Jedi can't have attachments/normal emotions is that Jedi are still human (or some other species, but you get the point, surely?). They will still have those feelings unless their's something wrong with them. Telling them they can't is going to just give you people who are repressed and feel some extra guilt and anxiety that they can't even tell anyone about in addition to the usual emotions.

Also, having intense emotions/attachments doesn't necessarily lead to the Dark Side. It didn't for Luke in Return of the Jedi. It didn't for lots of Jedi, unless you really think all the Jedi who didn't fall managed to shut off their feelings.

Edit: Moreover, I would argue that the films clearly show a progression from the Jedi's anti-attachment/emotion stance to a conclusion that utterly refutes it.

[Zixinus]

I think the deal behind that is that it depends on the relationship: in a healthy, well-working relationship there is little risk, especially if the participating Jedi is aware of the extra dangers he faces from this.

A dysfunctional relationship? Not so much.

I think the Jedi pushed themselves to a "no attachments" philosophy because it was a possible risk for being pushed into the Dark Side and they wanted all such risks eliminated from their ranks.

[The Romulan Republic]

Which is completely unrealistic.

You want to eliminate the possibility of someone misusing the Force? Don't train anyone to use the Force at all. You want to ensure no one is ever corrupt? Get rid of all people. Or do something sane and teach people to deal with normal emotions while recognizing that sometimes their will be villains and lunatics.

Edit: Maybe the Jedi had good intentions. But I'm not convinced that their approach makes sense.

[Alyrium Denryle]

The problem with saying that a Jedi can't have attachments/normal emotions is that Jedi are still human (or some other species, but you get the point, surely?). They will still have those feelings unless their's something wrong with them. Telling them they can't is going to just give you people who are repressed and feel some extra guilt and anxiety that they can't even tell anyone about in addition to the usual emotions.

Good job not actually reading that post, or the prior one.

They can have them (emotions, feelings etc). They cannot let those emotions rule their decisions or drive them to distraction. Obi Wan had passions. But he ruled them, not the other way around like it was with Anakin. Obi Wan was in fact madly in love, but he was able to do something Anakin could not. He was able to let it go because it was in the best interests of the person he cared for, and because he had a duty to the Jedi Order. He loved. He was not attached. His love was about Satine for her own sake, not about how she made him feel.

Comprehend?

Also, having intense emotions/attachments doesn't necessarily lead to the Dark Side. It didn't for Luke in Return of the Jedi. It didn't for lots of Jedi, unless you really think all the Jedi who didn't fall managed to shut off their feelings.

He very nearly did when Vader played on his feelings for his sister and he went all apeshit, nearly killing Vader. That was the Emperors plan. It was only the little reminder of what he could become (in the form of their mutual mechanical hands) that kept him from going over the edge and allowed him to regain his composure and avoid murdering his helpless father and going into a dark side death spiral. Vader in turn was redeemed by self-sacrificial love for his son. Love that was About Luke, not About Himself.

Which is completely unrealistic.

They just came off thousands of years of intermittent war with a sith empire, having dealt with massive dark-side defection due in large part to personal loss (so much of the rest of the various Sith Wars in the pre-Ruusan republic etc has been confirmed by tangential reference in TCW, that I am taking the course of history as mostly canon).

The Jedi are not normal people. They literally have a force of corruption that operates on a positive feedback loop that they are at risk to. For a thousand years, they only had the occassional dark acolyte or crazed hermit to deal with as far as the dark side went. Their system worked pretty well.

Until they got complacent and put a green muppet who offers his advice in reverse-syntax pithy sayings without explanation because he is 900 years old and lives a cloistered life in charge of the order. Whatever the problem is, it is not a conceptual problem with the way they train Jedi to handle emotions. It is a leadership problem in the current generation.

You want to eliminate the possibility of someone misusing the Force? Don't train anyone to use the Force at all.

Trained or not, a force sensitive is going to use the force. Untrained, they are highly likely to fall to the dark side, and worse, wont be able to control their inner telekinetic rage beast.

Or do something sane and teach people to deal with normal emotions while recognizing that sometimes their will be villains and lunatics.

Want TRM to stop missing the point? Get him some chocolate milk.

[The Romulan Republic]

Good job not actually reading that post, or the prior one.

What did I miss?

You were defending the Jedi no attachments/emotion suppression approach, and I pointed out some flaws in it and that I feel defending it runs contrary to the films. You said "They are not celebrate. They are unattached. There is a difference." And "But Anakin is an object lesson in why they try to avoid attachments." Your fucking words. You also argued that at least some normal emotions need to be avoided or surpressed by a Jedi- "In actual human relationships, both reactions are psychologically healthy... A Jedi cannot afford 2" and "A Jedi cannot afford to want revenge, because that leads into a Dark Side feedback loop."

Yeah, you may contradict it a bit in other places, but I'm not convinced that's a point in your favour.

Now, perhaps you're defining "attachment" narrowly as selfish/possessive emotions or something like that. That is something to be avoided. Perhaps I hadn't considered that. But I think I'm thinking of no attachment in the way the Jedi seem to mean it- that you cannot have any close/family relationships.

They can have them (emotions, feelings etc). They cannot let those emotions rule their decisions or drive them to distraction.

I partially agree.

However, Luke let his emotions rule his decisions at Endor, and it worked out pretty well in the end.

Obi Wan had passions. But he ruled them, not the other way around like it was with Anakin. Obi Wan was in fact madly in love, but he was able to do something Anakin could not. He was able to let it go because it was in the best interests of the person he cared for, and because he had a duty to the Jedi Order. He loved. He was not attached. His love was about Satine for her own sake, not about how she made him feel.

Then in that respect, Obi-wan was behaving as a Jedi should. But I'm not convinced he was behaving as the Jedi Order would have preferred.

Comprehend?

Quite well, I think.

He very nearly did when Vader played on his feelings for his sister and he went all apeshit, nearly killing Vader. That was the Emperors plan. It was only the little reminder of what he could become (in the form of their mutual mechanical hands) that kept him from going over the edge and allowed him to regain his composure and avoid murdering his helpless father and going into a dark side death spiral. Vader in turn was redeemed by self-sacrificial love for his son. Love that was About Luke, not About Himself.

Yes, it was a close thing for Luke. However, the fact is that his love for his father, and his refusal to kill his father, and his father's love for him, are what defeated the Sith. Something the old Jedi Order couldn't do with an army of Jedi and clones. This is probably the single most important moment in the films and understanding that it was love, the kind of love for a family that the Jedi would have forbidden, was what defeated Palpatine is essential to understanding the films.

They just came off thousands of years of intermittent war with a sith empire, having dealt with massive dark-side defection due in large part to personal loss (so much of the rest of the various Sith Wars in the pre-Ruusan republic etc has been confirmed by tangential reference in TCW, that I am taking the course of history as mostly canon).

Really? I know Darth Bane was confirmed to exist. What besides that and vague references to past war/Sith rule in the Prequels is still canon?

The Jedi are not normal people. They literally have a force of corruption that operates on a positive feedback loop that they are at risk to. For a thousand years, they only had the occassional dark acolyte or crazed hermit to deal with as far as the dark side went. Their system worked pretty well.

It went a thousand years without catastrophically imploding. That is not the same as working well.

Until they got complacent and put a green muppet who offers his advice in reverse-syntax pithy sayings without explanation because he is 900 years old and lives a cloistered life in charge of the order. Whatever the problem is, it is not a conceptual problem with the way they train Jedi to handle emotions. It is a leadership problem in the current generation.

Yoda has been around for a long time. You think his attitude is anything new?

Want TRM to stop missing the point? Get him some chocolate milk.

I presume your intention is to equate my mental capacity to that of a small child because I supposedly could not understand a point on which you were unclear.

But hey, if stooping to petty insults makes you feel better...

[Havok]

Also, having intense emotions/attachments doesn't necessarily lead to the Dark Side. It didn't for Luke in Return of the Jedi. It didn't for lots of Jedi, unless you really think all the Jedi who didn't fall managed to shut off their feelings.

The fuck it didn't. It lead DIRECTLY to the Dark Side. He was teetering right on the edge or did you miss Return of the Jedi? The fact that he DID NOT succumb like his father is the whole point of his journey, but EVERYTHING he did lead him right to the precipice of the Dark Side.

I like how people pick and choose what they believe from Yoda to fit their own personal thoughts/theories. Everyone takes what he says as gospel about the Light, but when he talks about the Dark Side... "Once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny..." meh, well maybe...

Yoda was VERY specific about this and he has been alive for 900 years and was a leading member of the Jedi and one of their most powerful in history. If he doesn't know about anyone not falling to the Dark Side after dabbling in it, there is a damn good chance it has never happened, HENCE why what Luke did was so important and significant. I mean shit, Yoda and Obi-Wan thought they were going to go have to get his sister and start over with her in TESB because they were worried about him dying or falling due to incomplete training.

[Alyrium Denryle]

You were defending the Jedi no attachments/emotion suppression approach, and I pointed out some flaws in it and that I feel defending it runs contrary to the films. You said "They are not celebrate. They are unattached. There is a difference." And "But Anakin is an object lesson in why they try to avoid attachments." Your fucking words. You also argued that at least some normal emotions need to be avoided or surpressed by a Jedi- "In actual human relationships, both reactions are psychologically healthy... A Jedi cannot afford 2" and "A Jedi cannot afford to want revenge, because that leads into a Dark Side feedback loop."

Good job quoting sentence fragments outside the lengthy explanation.

A normal psychologically healthy person has emotional reactions and feelings that are not good all the fucking time. Hell, I am fairly well adjusted, and I want revenge for certain past wrongs. Were I a Jedi, I would have to set those desires aside. I have had juvenile crushes which are perfectly normal and healthy for me, but were I a Jedi, they would have been in the Dark Side Danger Zone because they were ultimately self-centered.

In our universe, I am not force sensitive, and thus do not have a metaphysical force of evil that will use those self-centered emotions as a wedge to corrupt me into a twisted sado-narcissistic asshole. Jedi do. Therefore, there are types of otherwise normal and healthy emotional responses they need to avoid.

Is it really that fucking hard to wrap your skull around.

Now, perhaps you're defining "attachment" narrowly as selfish/possessive emotions or something like that.

I have been pretty fucking clear about that, yes.

Then in that respect, Obi-wan was behaving as a Jedi should. But I'm not convinced he was behaving as the Jedi Order would have preferred.

He did exactly as the Jedi Order preferred.

This is probably the single most important moment in the films and understanding that it was love, the kind of love for a family that the Jedi would have forbidden, was what defeated Palpatine is essential to understanding the films.

And none of that would have happened if Anakin did not let his selfish attachment to Padme drive him into fulfilling his own premonitions. Which is the sort of situation that is going to be far far more common for a Jedi. Love is not required to bring down a Sith Lord, you can tell because the Jedi Order managed to force the Sith to adopt the rule of two. The situations where that tactic is required are not going to come up very often. Hell, it would not have been necessary with Luke had he not had less skill with the force than Anakin had when he was 15, and had instead been raised by Obi Wan from early childhood and thus actually trained in The Force and lightsaber combat. But he wasnt, and they were operating on a Death Star sized time constraint by RotJ

Delving into the old EU, it has happened a number of times I can count on one hand, and was not strictly speaking even required a couple of those times. It just worked out that way.

On the other hand, emotional stresses causing a turn to the dark side comes up a lot more frequently, or has the potential to if not actively prevented by way of policy and internal control mechanisms.

What do you design your policy around? Frequent occurrences, or rare occurrences?

It went a thousand years without catastrophically imploding. That is not the same as working well.

How is rendering a formerly common event of Dark Side Defection among Jedi into a vanishingly rare event anything but working pretty well at the intended purpose?

Yoda has been around for a long time. You think his attitude is anything new?

His beliefs, no. His piss-poor style of giving advice and teaching? That seems specific to him as far as I can tell.