Ground warfare

[Lord Revan]

Considering how utterly ineffective the rebel artillery and T-47 blasters were against the AT-ATs on Hoth, I can't help wonder what they were expecting the Empire to deploy against them. After all, the rebels identified the AT-ATs on site as Imperial walkers so it's not like they were some unfamiliar new superweapon, but Luke seemed surprised to discover that their armor was too strong for blasters.

It just seems paradoxical to me that they'd be so well-prepared at defending Echo Base against an Imperial bombardment, and yet so ill-prepared to mount an effective defense against an Imperial ground assault.

I'm guessing they were expecting something along the lines of those imperial hover transports or AT-STs, not the ground compiment of a SSD and its escorts. I also suspect that ground defenses we saw weren't the final version but rather the version the rebels had been able to setup when the Empire stuck.

I mean the imperial response seems out of portions if they didn't know this a was a major rebel installation and not say for example a pirate base or a hideout for smugglers.

[NecronLord]

It just seems paradoxical to me that they'd be so well-prepared at defending Echo Base against an Imperial bombardment, and yet so ill-prepared to mount an effective defense against an Imperial ground assault.

What makes you think they were ineffective? They held until evacuation, with losses. That's literally the optimal outcome for a resistance force when their base is attacked in force. Yes, they lost the battle, but the battle was not 'the end of the rebellion' as it would be if evacuation failed.

The Battle of Hoth was a textbook operation not just for the Empire, but for the Rebels too. All rebel leaders escaped, all rebel data was preserved, all transports escaped and much materiel was preserved. Veers captured some icy caves and some corpses. Notably, Vader's actual objective, capturing Luke, was not accomplished, and only the fact that the Falcon had to escape during its maintenance cycle allowed him to capture Han and the crew on Bespin.

It's literally textbook for the rebels, here's Che Guevara on the topic:

At the outset, the essential task of the guerrilla fighter is to keep himself from being destroyed. Little by little it will be easier for the members of the guerrilla band or bands to adapt themselves to their form of life and to make flight and escape from the forces that are on the offensive an easy task, because it is performed daily. When this condition is reached, the guerrilla, having taken up inaccessible positions out of reach of the enemy, or having assembled forces that deter the enemy from attacking, ought to proceed to the gradual weakening of the enemy

The rebels escaped to a rendezvous point, and continued their war, until they had the means to assemble forces to confront the enemy (their 'cherished fleet' that carpeted Jakku in shattered Star Destroyers) directly. Strategically, Hoth accomplished nothing for the Empire and the rebels executed the perfect battle for a guerrilla force.

[Galvatron]

What makes you think they were ineffective?

The fact that they failed to inflict any visible damage on the Imperial walkers.

They held until evacuation, with losses. That's literally the optimal outcome for a resistance force when their base is attacked in force. Yes, they lost the battle, but the battle was not 'the end of the rebellion' as it would be if evacuation failed.

Only because Luke cleverly devised a new tactic on the fly using the T-47 tow cables. Had he not done that, the rebel base may have been overrun before they could evacuate everyone and achieve a Che Guevara victory.

[NecronLord]

That's the nature of Guerrilla warfare that Lucas was likely going for; the bad guys have vehicles that the rebels can't match. Most likely they had no sources of such things.

If you want a reason for surprise at their resilience, note that the AT-ATs used in Rebels and Rogue One are different models to those in ESB (the Rogue One version has a glowy cylon eye and is somewhat smaller by all appearances) so perhaps they're new.

But really, it's just as likely they've not tried to attack AT-ATs before with those vehicles.

Certainly if Luke hadn't been there it would have gone worse; that's rather irrelevant though, as he was, and he was part of the regular forces there.

[NecronLord]

To wit, though, underlying point is that the defenses are only there to hold the Empire up long enough to evacuate, not to defend territory. That's why the space-defenses were the focus of attention; ground warfare takes time, and forcing the Empire into ground warfare buys you time.

[Galvatron]

I get that, but General Rieekan's strategy of "we'll have to hold them until all transports are away" would have failed miserably with the weapons they had. I can only imagine what would have happened if the AT-ATs had disgorged LAATs once they were under the shield.

[NecronLord]

The LAATs would be fucked right up? The speeders are dedicated combat aircraft with guns that take up literally the entire length of the craft, LAATs are space hueys and are harmed by far smaller Geonosian air-speeders in AoTC.

[Elheru Aran]

The snowspeeders were pretty tiny to start with so the length of the guns isn't terribly relevant. If they were the length of a X-wing then that would be another matter.

That brings to mind. Has that hypothesis that walkers were used because repulsor vehicles can't cross an active shield ever been reinforced in the EU? I know there was TPM with the Gungan battle...

[NecronLord]

This is an example, in fact.

It might well be that Riikean was expecting LAATs (or their cousins Imperial Patrol Transports/Dropship Transports) and that's why they had the air-speeders. LAATs and their cousins seem to lack any means to either shake or fire back at a speeder chasing them, given that they don't even try and shoot them in AotC, and just try and outrun them.

There's no reason to think it won't go like any other troop-transport copter vs fighter/attack helicopter scenario.

The snowspeeders were pretty tiny to start with so the length of the guns isn't terribly relevant. If they were the length of a X-wing then that would be another matter.

The Nantex is also mostly empty space, very very slim by comparison, and has a small diameter gun that is maybe a quarter of its 10m length the T-47's guns are its entire 5.3m length, and it has two of them.

That brings to mind. Has that hypothesis that walkers were used because repulsor vehicles can't cross an active shield ever been reinforced in the EU? I know there was TPM with the Gungan battle...

In the old EU it's in the AotC ICS.

[Galvatron]

It might well be that Riikean was expecting LAATs (or their cousins Imperial Patrol Transports/Dropship Transports) and that's why they had the air-speeders.

Good point. Maybe this is a case of General Veers simply anticipating the likeliest rebel defenses and not playing into them. This would be in stark contrast to Admiral Ozzel who failed* to anticipate the likelihood of a planetary shield.

* - I still believe he was a rebel sympathizer who did his best to sabotage Vader's efforts at finding and destroying the rebel base.

[NecronLord]

I'm also on board with the Rebel sympathizer idea, given his earlier behavior.

[Galvatron]

It'd be interesting to have that revealed in the one of the new movies.

Admiral Ozzel: Unsung Rebel Hero

[NecronLord]

It'd be interesting to have that revealed in the one of the new movies.

Admiral Ozzel: Unsung Rebel Hero

It's now my headcanon that he's actually Konstantine's superior in Star Wars rebels. "Standing orders are that navy starships are not to engage enemy light craft, all rebel should be engaged by fighters only as this is a police action..."

[Crazedwraith]

They held until evacuation, with losses. That's literally the optimal outcome for a resistance force when their base is attacked in force. Yes, they lost the battle, but the battle was not 'the end of the rebellion' as it would be if evacuation failed.

Only because Luke cleverly devised a new tactic on the fly using the T-47 tow cables. Had he not done that, the rebel base may have been overrun before they could evacuate everyone and achieve a Che Guevara victory.

I'd always assumed that the tow cables was a pre-devised strategy not spur of the moment idea from Luke. Otherwise why go out with the rear gunner?

[Elheru Aran]

I'd always assumed that the tow cables was a pre-devised strategy not spur of the moment idea from Luke. Otherwise why go out with the rear gunner?

Well, the canon used to have it that the snowspeeders were modified cargo-handling vessels that used the tow cables for manhandling large repulsor containers, sort of like forklifts. Perhaps they were even used as such by the Alliance when not fighting, and the tow-cable trick was figured out on other planets, perhaps against other walkers. I mean, it's not a *huge* stretch of the imagination, no?

Alternatively, perhaps the rear gunner performs a situational-awareness task-- helping visually observe for enemy action, manning sensors, that kind of thing-- and the harpoon gun was just left on there as a 'hell why not' moment.

[Galvatron]

I'd always assumed that the tow cables was a pre-devised strategy not spur of the moment idea from Luke. Otherwise why go out with the rear gunner?

To man the rear blaster and shoot the Imperials with it?

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Has that hypothesis that walkers were used because repulsor vehicles can't cross an active shield ever been reinforced in the EU? I know there was TPM with the Gungan battle...

The AT-ATs were used, because Vader(and Palpatine)knew they would make the Rebels shit their pants. Big, tall, menacing metal monsters stomping and blasting everything and everyone in sight with impunity make for one hell of a psychological warfare advantage, and play into the Imperial idea of using fear and intimidation as tactics.

And, having a capship under the shield for ground support...is a waste of asset. If the Rebs had capship support at Hoth, it would've been better employed slowing up the Imps by engaging their ships in hit and run tactics.

[Crazedwraith]

I'd always assumed that the tow cables was a pre-devised strategy not spur of the moment idea from Luke. Otherwise why go out with the rear gunner?

To man the rear blaster and shoot the Imperials with it?

There's a blaster there?

[Galvatron]

I'd always assumed that the tow cables was a pre-devised strategy not spur of the moment idea from Luke. Otherwise why go out with the rear gunner?

To man the rear blaster and shoot the Imperials with it?

There's a blaster there?

I guess not. I always figured the harpoon was just a secondary function of that gun.

[Elheru Aran]

To man the rear blaster and shoot the Imperials with it?

There's a blaster there?

I guess not. I always figured the harpoon was just a secondary function of that gun.

I find it more likely, as I speculated earlier, that there may be sensors and such that the rear gunner mans. This would have been particularly useful in their search-and-rescue context, and should aerial combat become necessary they would be useful in that regard as well; there's plenty of two-man fighters out there. Of course pretty much none of them have the rear seater facing *backwards*...

[NecronLord]

The AT-ATs were used, because Vader(and Palpatine)knew they would make the Rebels shit their pants. Big, tall, menacing metal monsters stomping and blasting everything and everyone in sight with impunity make for one hell of a psychological warfare advantage, and play into the Imperial idea of using fear and intimidation as tactics.

If that was the idea, it was a spectacular failure. Sure, the rebels retreated, but again, that's literally what real experts say Guerillas should do in that situation; they also gave battle and managed to get all their transports away. So the psychological warfare effort accomplished nothing of note; and possibly hampered the attack entirely. Juggernauts would have gotten there faster, simply because they're faster, assuming they can handle icy terrain.

Not that I'm saying it's not the idea, just that this is a bad idea on the Empire's part.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

It backfired spectacularly, Necron, same as the first Death Star. Fear and intimidation only work for so long as a means of warfare or control, before people get tired of being scared and rebel anyway. That's what happened with the Rebs, and what happened with the people of Eastern Europe in real life.

That being said:

Juggernauts would have gotten there faster, simply because they're faster, assuming they can handle icy terrain.

In the old EU, they were said to be high maintenance. On the other hand, this is based on the strength of a single novel, The Courtship Of Princess Leia. Of course, their all-wheel drivetrains would've been great for Hoth's snow and ice.

Or, as was mentioned upthread, Vader could've just sent in troops via LAAT-type gunships, supported by repulsor tanks.

In any rate, the Rebs did act in accordance with standard guerilla doctrine in holding the line long enough for their headquarters to retreat. On that, we're agreed.

[Reyvan]

It may well be that the rebel defenses forced the Empire to deploy AT-ATs rather than a faster vehicle like the Juggernaut. Those rebel guns might have been sufficient to stop a Juggernaut, or other ground vehicles, so the Empire had to deploy the much stronger, but also slower, AT-ATs instead. Thus despite the rebels failure to really slow the AT-ATs down at all, the defenses would be a success because it forced the Empire to deploy them instead of something faster that could have reached the base before the evacuation was complete.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

It may well be that the rebel defenses forced the Empire to deploy AT-ATs rather than a faster vehicle like the Juggernaut. Those rebel guns might have been sufficient to stop a Juggernaut, or other ground vehicles, so the Empire had to deploy the much stronger, but also slower, AT-ATs instead. Thus despite the rebels failure to really slow the AT-ATs down at all, the defenses would be a success because it forced the Empire to deploy them instead of something faster that could have reached the base before the evacuation was complete.

Except Juggernauts are as thickly armored as AT-ATs, least according to the old EU. The AT-ATs, though, were more intimidating, even though they did basically the same job.

Welcome to the board, Reyvan.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The Juggernaut bodies may have been, but what about the wheels/drivetrain? IIRC the ICs correctly those looked reasonably exposed.

Plus, with the At-At's their main guns are much higher, giving them a longer line of sight and letting them target the power generators much sooner than a Juggernaut could have. If the Juggernaut even carried weapons heavy enough to take out said power generators.