Moderator: Vympel
Hmmm, am I in heaven?DG_Cal_Wright wrote:::As the cackle grows louder, DG_Cal_Wright turns to the evil Lord of the Expanded Universe. He grabs the lunatic and hoists him into the air. Tendrils of poor plot energy erupts over the two. With one last effort, Wright tosses Emperor KJA into a deep shicsm where the bottom is nothing but Aaron Alston and Timothy Zahn books.::
I believe so.Hmmm, am I in heaven?
She didn't know more than luke about the force. she knew more than luke about lightsabre fighting. They're two completely different things. And if her knowledge was more or less on par with luke's, it could be because Luke only got a few months of training from Yoda, and barely any from obi-wan.Mara Jade who knows more than Luke about the force
You have a problem with that? In any case He didn't actually succed in all of his battles, you know. There were several occasions in the trilogy when he withdrew from an encounter because he couldn't attain the primary objective.Thrawn the uber tactician who only loses to an assassins blade
Perhaps he had a reason for that.He didn't like Dark Empire so he refused to work with it at all
Ooh yeah. I'd take Thrawn over Palpatine any day. And that's saying something.As to the characters, well, to a lot of people Thrawn is just supremely cool.
Professionalism non existant? Why because he didn't assume the average Star Wars reader was a two year old, or a retard. Becuse it took a little inteligence to read his work?Crazy_Vasey wrote:What the hell is it with people worshipping Zahn? His books are nothing special, his original characters are all pathetic and his professionalism is non existant.
Errr no, even at this point that is happening, refer to the entire NJO series, and anything anything written by KJA and you will see what I mean.Crazy_Vasey wrote:His books aren't that great at all, I have never understood the fuss about Zahn. The first trilogy was pretty much par for the course and had little special about it. People say it saved Star Wars or some such crap but you could have stuck Star Wars on any novel and it would have sold like hot cakes at that point.
Did you actually try and read the duology, with the forethought of understanding? That point was specifically noted by people on both sides of the argument!! The clone of the royal guardesman was trying to A) Distabilse the NR in the hopes of it ripping it's self apart, and B) Flush out The Hand of Thrawn. Everyone knew that the Empire, even with Thrawn at the head could not pose a threat to the NR if it stood together (excluding the territories opened up in the Unknown Regions), the point was to rip it apart!Crazy_Vasey wrote:The next duology was ridiculous. Men who faced Vader without fear, or at least keeping it under control, were cacking their pants because there was a rumour Thrawn was back in command of the Empire. It made no sense, the Empire could not have won at that point with it without Thrawn if they had tried anything the NR would have came together and squashed them like a bug.
As opposed to Dala, who goes on a typical Imperial Rampage with 4 star destroyers and gets her ass handed to her. Isaard, who at the time held the majority of the Empires resources and decided to fight a scorched/retreat campaign? As opposed to all the other half-assed baked ideas that EU writters have arrogantly shoved down our throats?Crazy_Vasey wrote:His original characters are nearly all Mary Sues. Thrawn the uber tactician who only loses to an assassins blade
Zero training? Zero training, even though she tells Luke that she was taken from her family when she was young, and brought to the Imperial Palace in order to be trained!?Crazy_Vasey wrote:Mara Jade who knows more than Luke about the force despite having next to zero training
Oh I'm sorry does knowlege hurt your feelings? Then I guess I should stop writting.Crazy_Vasey wrote:Karrde the better than anyone Smuggler who knows everything.
So you didn't like it, fair enough that is your own personal opinion, misguided, but there it is anyway.Crazy_Vasey wrote:Yawn. Boring. It started to get real tiresome when the galaxy collectively shit its pants at the first signs of a possible Thrawn return, Jade was tearing Luke's balls off and Karrde was the only one who could get the info to avert a war. I hate his characters. They're not a patch on the OT characters.
Point of fact Zahn's was the first book to be published with the Star Wars logo since the ass end of the original trilogy. So ofcourse he would have to tell other people where their ideas would fit in relation to his, HE WAS THE FIRST ONE TO BE PUBLISHED!!!! What is the point of him being published first, Han and Leia still haven't got children, then KJA sets his story before Zahn's in the timeline and Han and Leia already have kids? He had to say to people, look mine are finished they are being printed as we speak, here is the situation of all the characters at such and such time after ROTJ, make sure your story serves continuity by not fucking up a prepublished work!Crazy_Vasey wrote:He didn't like Dark Empire so he refused to work with it at all, so it had to be shunted along in the timeline to after TTT and now has some parts that make no sense. He still didn't like Dark Empire by VOTF so he took cheap shots at it with the spaghetti haired gorgon Mara Jade. He doesn't seem to realise that Star Wars is a shared franchise, he doesn't own it, he has no more rights to it than any other author. Say what you like about KJA and his writing abilities but at least he's a true professional and doesn't just selectively ignore things he doesn't like.
Not what i was referring to, will be addressed later on. Personally I don't think his writing style was any more advanced than most of the later authors excluding notable examples like KJA of course but it isn't something you can argue about with any chance of an end.Professionalism non existant? Why because he didn't assume the average Star Wars reader was a two year old, or a retard. Becuse it took a little inteligence to read his work?
Sales figures now are considerable lower than they were at the beginning of the bantam run as far as I am aware. There are a few possible explainations ranging from overexposure to poor quality for this but it's not like you can know the real reason unless you can read peoples minds. Fact is when the Zahn books came out the comic license was in the process of changing hands so there had been nothing from there for a while, the novel license just hadn't been used and there had been no films in nearly a decade. Sales were bound to be extremely high.Errr no, even at this point that is happening, refer to the entire NJO series, and anything anything written by KJA and you will see what I mean.
And I maintain it was utterly unrealistic. A more likely response in a situation like this would have been for the NR to panic and launch a massive attack crushing the Empire once and for all. They had the power and with a rumour of Thrawns return they sure as hell had the motivation. Tear itself apart, I don't think so. A military threat is the best way to bring a government together!Did you actually try and read the duology, with the forethought of understanding? That point was specifically noted by people on both sides of the argument!! The clone of the royal guardesman was trying to A) Distabilse the NR in the hopes of it ripping it's self apart, and B) Flush out The Hand of Thrawn. Everyone knew that the Empire, even with Thrawn at the head could not pose a threat to the NR if it stood together (excluding the territories opened up in the Unknown Regions), the point was to rip it apart!
Oh there's a good argument. The rest of the EU stinks even more so Zahn is good after all! I don't think so. This is trying to shift the focus onto other even worse authors and is totally irrelevant. Saying someone's a better author than KJA is like saying someone is the brightest kid in special school.As opposed to Dala, who goes on a typical Imperial Rampage with 4 star destroyers and gets her ass handed to her. Isaard, who at the time held the majority of the Empires resources and decided to fight a scorched/retreat campaign? As opposed to all the other half-assed baked ideas that EU writters have arrogantly shoved down our throats?
All he taught her was a few telepathic tricks to communicate with him and a few other low level abilities. Big. Fucking. Deal. And it was dark side training so it's worse than useless anyway. She had all of a week of Jedi training at the academy and then did a runner never to come back for more. Wow. She's really worthy to be lecturing a Jedi Master on how he should use the force.Zero training? Zero training, even though she tells Luke that she was taken from her family when she was young, and brought to the Imperial Palace in order to be trained!?
Well that was possibly the worst attempt to needle me I've ever seen. That wasn't even close to being a relevant point. What's that called? An ad hominem attack? This is probably where someone else would post a concession accepted picture.Oh I'm sorry does knowlege hurt your feelings? Then I guess I should stop writting.
I didn't like it because the whole book seemed to be nothing more than a place for Zahn to snipe at works he didn't like and to glorify his characters as much as humanly possible.So you didn't like it, fair enough that is your own personal opinion, misguided, but there it is anyway.
Dark Empire was all done and ready to print long before Zahn started TTT. It was delayed by the comic license changing hands and he refused point blank to work with it at all. That's why DE is so screwed up continuity wise, it was meant to be set well before TTT but had to be shunted forward. To me that is arrogant and unprofessional, you may disagree.Point of fact Zahn's was the first book to be published with the Star Wars logo since the ass end of the original trilogy. So ofcourse he would have to tell other people where their ideas would fit in relation to his, HE WAS THE FIRST ONE TO BE PUBLISHED!!!! What is the point of him being published first, Han and Leia still haven't got children, then KJA sets his story before Zahn's in the timeline and Han and Leia already have kids? He had to say to people, look mine are finished they are being printed as we speak, here is the situation of all the characters at such and such time after ROTJ, make sure your story serves continuity by not fucking up a prepublished work!
Those were the parts on Bothawui weren't they? Those parts were so relentlessly dull I had trouble forcing myself to read them and can't remember a lot about them at all so I'll take your word for it, it would take a lot to make him more irritating than he was in I, Jedi anyway.Yes true, Zahn does ignore other story lines, but at least when he uses other writters characters he doesn't butcher them! Corran in VOTF was a big improvment over any other time I read about him.
Perhaps, however let me ask you, which other EU writter did you like?Crazy_Vasey wrote:Not what i was referring to, will be addressed later on. Personally I don't think his writing style was any more advanced than most of the later authors excluding notable examples like KJA of course but it isn't something you can argue about with any chance of an end.
You are right, sales would be extremely high no matter who wrote the first book, however having said that if it was KJA series to come out first I honestly would never have bought one EU book. Usually I would borrow the first one, see if I like it and then if I did go out and buy the trilogy. Well that's just me.Crazy_Vasey wrote:Sales figures now are considerable lower than they were at the beginning of the bantam run as far as I am aware. There are a few possible explainations ranging from overexposure to poor quality for this but it's not like you can know the real reason unless you can read peoples minds. Fact is when the Zahn books came out the comic license was in the process of changing hands so there had been nothing from there for a while, the novel license just hadn't been used and there had been no films in nearly a decade. Sales were bound to be extremely high.
Except when the Empire can no longer possibly be concieved as a threat! Thrawn or no Thrawn, not one of the members of the NR were worried about him enough to justify an all out attack. They were too busy squabling. Which I would remind you is the entire reason that the OR fell, everyone at this point was looking out for their own interests.Crazy_Vasey wrote:And I maintain it was utterly unrealistic. A more likely response in a situation like this would have been for the NR to panic and launch a massive attack crushing the Empire once and for all. They had the power and with a rumour of Thrawns return they sure as hell had the motivation. Tear itself apart, I don't think so. A military threat is the best way to bring a government together!
Excuse me for assuming it's reasonable to be a little concerned with your own life when your ship is captured, you are brought aboard and enemy vessel that has a crew of 5000 (IIRC) and hundreds upon hundreds of stromtroopers. Are you saying you would be jovialy loaughing and having a great time? There is a clinical term for people who are unable to grasp the severity of the reality which they are in you know, it's called insanity.Crazy_Vasey wrote:Did you read the parts where they brought Lando and co onboard "Thrawn's" ship and they shit their pants virtually? That's the sort of thing I'm talking about here.
Well who else are we gonna compare a SW EU author to? Homer? Tolkien? Hemmingway? Really the argument stands.Crazy_Vasey wrote:Oh there's a good argument. The rest of the EU stinks even more so Zahn is good after all! I don't think so. This is trying to shift the focus onto other even worse authors and is totally irrelevant. Saying someone's a better author than KJA is like saying someone is the brightest kid in special school.
Dark side training = useless? Do you really think that or are you just trippin? And as for the whole did one week at the Academy, that was KJA not Zahn. Zahn had to serve continuity in mentioning all those things and explaining them away, otherwise we get the superman effect and we don't have an interesting story. Example Luke wants to find Mara on this little planet, he senses aliens, he mind rapes them, they become his little bitches, they take him to Mara. Well that was interesting....Crazy_Vasey wrote:All he taught her was a few telepathic tricks to communicate with him and a few other low level abilities. Big. Fucking. Deal. And it was dark side training so it's worse than useless anyway. She had all of a week of Jedi training at the academy and then did a runner never to come back for more. Wow. She's really worthy to be lecturing a Jedi Master on how he should use the force.
Probably falls under the catogory of Trolling, yes I admit it was pointless. It was without a point.Crazy_Vasey wrote:Well that was possibly the worst attempt to needle me I've ever seen. That wasn't even close to being a relevant point. What's that called? An ad hominem attack? This is probably where someone else would post a concession accepted picture.
Well I liked it because he did exactly that, however aren't we getting a little of topic here, please remember that my original post was about Zahn's first trilogy. The duology was a lesser work because other EU writters had pretty much killed SW by then, and Zahn went on damaged control.Crazy_Vasey wrote:I didn't like it because the whole book seemed to be nothing more than a place for Zahn to snipe at works he didn't like and to glorify his characters as much as humanly possible.
Wouldn't know, however first to print takes precedance as I already mentioned.Crazy_Vasey wrote:Dark Empire was all done and ready to print long before Zahn started TTT. It was delayed by the comic license changing hands and he refused point blank to work with it at all. That's why DE is so screwed up continuity wise, it was meant to be set well before TTT but had to be shunted forward. To me that is arrogant and unprofessional, you may disagree.
I don't understand what you found boring, however that is subjective, and I found it intriguing.Crazy_Vasey wrote:Those were the parts on Bothawui weren't they? Those parts were so relentlessly dull I had trouble forcing myself to read them and can't remember a lot about them at all so I'll take your word for it, it would take a lot to make him more irritating than he was in I, Jedi anyway.
Allston and Denning have both written excellent EU novels. Stover's book was also extremely well written IMO but I don't agree with some of the plot points regarding the force in there which mars my enjoyment a little.Perhaps, however let me ask you, which other EU writter did you like?
Depends really, KJA's novels I think are better for children than adults. I quite enjoyed them when I was younger but now I just can't bring myself to read them.You are right, sales would be extremely high no matter who wrote the first book, however having said that if it was KJA series to come out first I honestly would never have bought one EU book. Usually I would borrow the first one, see if I like it and then if I did go out and buy the trilogy. Well that's just me.
But still everyone was cacking their pants at the thought of facing Thrawn again even though he was a complete non threat.Except when the Empire can no longer possibly be concieved as a threat! Thrawn or no Thrawn, not one of the members of the NR were worried about him enough to justify an all out attack. They were too busy squabling. Which I would remind you is the entire reason that the OR fell, everyone at this point was looking out for their own interests.
We've seen these people be captured by Vader before and not show any fear towards him, they were fine until they saw Thrawn and then bam they're shitting themselves. I seriously don't think so.Excuse me for assuming it's reasonable to be a little concerned with your own life when your ship is captured, you are brought aboard and enemy vessel that has a crew of 5000 (IIRC) and hundreds upon hundreds of stromtroopers. Are you saying you would be jovialy loaughing and having a great time? There is a clinical term for people who are unable to grasp the severity of the reality which they are in you know, it's called insanity.
So instead of working with the continuity he throws it all aside because he doesn't like it. Forgive me if I don't endorse that. The characters do not belong to Zahn, they belong to LFL and he is obliged to follow their continuity with them. Creating them gives him no more rights to them than any other author especially when near two decades have passed in the timeline bewteen his works.Dark side training = useless? Do you really think that or are you just trippin? And as for the whole did one week at the Academy, that was KJA not Zahn. Zahn had to serve continuity in mentioning all those things and explaining them away, otherwise we get the superman effect and we don't have an interesting story. Example Luke wants to find Mara on this little planet, he senses aliens, he mind rapes them, they become his little bitches, they take him to Mara. Well that was interesting....
Well my main issues are with the HoT duology, TTT was just a distinctly average set of books that I really don't care about too much. I don't care for his view of the force at all, in fact after reading interviews with him Lucas has blatantly contradicted his view in the PT. If I can find the interview I'm thinking of here I'll post a link but Zahn pretty much says that a Jedi can't do things like running at superspeed and can only handle a few blasters at once. Heh, better tell Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan that they can't do what they were doing :p
Well I liked it because he did exactly that, however aren't we getting a little of topic here, please remember that my original post was about Zahn's first trilogy. The duology was a lesser work because other EU writters had pretty much killed SW by then, and Zahn went on damaged control.
No. He knew about Dark Empire, he had all the info he needed to be compatible with it. Hell all he had to do was mention the emperor reborn once or twice and include Anakin Solo and it would have probably been fine. He decided to ignore it because he didn't like it; that is sheer fucking arrogance and a complete lack of professionalism.Wouldn't know, however first to print takes precedance as I already mentioned.
I found it boring because it all seemed pretty tangential to the main story and could have easily been removed without any ill effects on the main thrust of the novel.I don't understand what you found boring, however that is subjective, and I found it intriguing.
Alliston writes great character driven stories, as does Stackpole, Kathy Tyers' TaB pissed me off to no end. Zahn on the other hand writes grand space opera's which is what I find interesting. He has plots, within plots and subtext, I guess that is what apeals to me more.Crazy_Vasey wrote:Allston and Denning have both written excellent EU novels. Stover's book was also extremely well written IMO but I don't agree with some of the plot points regarding the force in there which mars my enjoyment a little.
I also think that Stackpole could write an excellent EU novel if they forced him to not use Corran Horn and do a little research outside playing TIE Fighter.
Kathy Tyers didn't do too bad a job in TaB even if the plot is ridiculous IMO, shame that in BP she fawned over Mara so much it put me off the novel.
Greg Keyes work was also fairly enjoyable even if it suffered from uber kid syndrome. The Solo brats really get on my nerves sometimes.
KJA work is just plain bad. I read it in year 8, and I hated it then and I still hate it now. It's for mental retarts. Do you know how fustrating it is to read 800 pages of drible and then have a finished ending with the superman effect? I mean what was the point of me reading the first part of the trilogy to begin with?Crazy_Vasey wrote:Depends really, KJA's novels I think are better for children than adults. I quite enjoyed them when I was younger but now I just can't bring myself to read them.
I have to admit that the first EU 'novel' I read was "The Glove of Darth Vader" and it was nearly five years before I read another. I can't actually remember which was the first EU novel I read that I actually enjoyed, it was a long time ago now
NO! NO! NO! Half were shitting their pants, the other half were calling it a hoax, and Leia and Co were trying to figure out what the fuck was going on! Man you admit it's been a while since you read it yourself, but please that was obvious. Palpatine did not create the coruption and the decay of the OR all by himself. It was their to be exploited, and he was the most manipulative bastard there ever was. Remember that Dooku mentioned to Obi-Wan that Qui-Gon knew of the corruption of the Senate? That does not happen because of one man over night, it's something that as a whole goes around. (did that sentence structure make sense?)Carzy_Vasey wrote:But still everyone was cacking their pants at the thought of facing Thrawn again even though he was a complete non threat.
And the problems of the OR were almost completely manufactured by Palpatine's manipulations behind the scenes. It worked fine for thousands of years before he sunk his claws into it. That guy played everyone magnificently. Everything that happened, happened because he wanted it to do so.
Yes we saw Lando and the Diamilan senator captured by Vader when exactly? You could argue Cloud City for Lando, however I wouldn't say that Lando wasn't exactly scared at the time, hint: Lando always massaging his throat in the presence of Vader.Crazy_Vasey wrote:We've seen these people be captured by Vader before and not show any fear towards him, they were fine until they saw Thrawn and then bam they're shitting themselves. I seriously don't think so.
Yes that line, pissed me off too.Crazy_Vasey wrote:However this was just an example of the overwhelming feeling I got from the book that they were building Thrawn up to be more of a threat that Palpatine or Vader. Hell there was even a line in the book where Jade said Thrawn was better at playing the Imperial court than Palpatine. What a load of horseshit, Palpy is the man that played the OR senate like a banjo for over a decade without anyone even coming close to sussing him out.
Sacralige! No I have read DE, but I didn't like it because it was nothing like what we have seen in the movies. It felt like some fanboy's wet dream.Carzy_Vasey wrote:Anyway have you ever read the Dark Empire sourcebook? That has to have one of the best parts ever where the DE people get their own back on Zahn
No, he was serving continuity by reasoning it away. Like I said had he not deliberately de-powered Luke it wouldn't have been any fun at all. Like he said, yes Luke can do all these things, however he learns that sometimes he doesn't need to. God why doesn't this make sense to you? It would have been a standard threat of the month, with Luke unleashing some grand new Force power at the last second to save the NR otherwise. What a cop out!Crazy_Vasey wrote:So instead of working with the continuity he throws it all aside because he doesn't like it. Forgive me if I don't endorse that. The characters do not belong to Zahn, they belong to LFL and he is obliged to follow their continuity with them. Creating them gives him no more rights to them than any other author especially when near two decades have passed in the timeline bewteen his works.
Yes it does, because even though she was given 'dark side' traing, she never turned. She understood the line and where it was. Luke was given a few months, at best, of training just so that he could be a weapon. Again you are not understanding, or more acurately, seeing the difference.Carzy_Vasey wrote:Dark side training is virtually useless, it teaches you the opposite of everything that a Jedi should be and the fact that it's the only extended training that Jade has had sure as hell doesn't give her authority to lecture Luke.
No, that was some of the other's opinions. His interpretation is that when you draw, too much power from the Force, you start to loose it's guidence. One could argue that that was what Yoda meant when he was lecturing about arrogance to Obi-Wan.Cazy_Vasey wrote:His interpretation of the force is also horseshit. Using the force too much turns you to the dark side HAHAHAHA. I guess the old order were all sith in disguise then.
Which Zahn used in the original trilogy to limit Luke, not the yslamari as some people think. And which has consequently been pissed on by other EU authors, both the morals and yslamari. He had to again introduce the moral dilema in the duology, which he did and you said is wrong. Now I don't understand, because Zahn is saying that Luke isn't using the Force as much as before, so that he can better hear it, you are claiming that Zahn is being unfair to other writters. You suggest that he just say that Luke has morals that would prevent him from turning. Which is what Zahn did in the original trilogy. Make up you mind.Carzy_Vasey wrote:You know Luke having the ability to do that doesn't mean he will do it, he has these pesky things called morals and the jedi code, or whatever they use post ROTJ, to follow and I'm pretty sure that mind raping aliens without need would be a tad dark side.
I was hoping you would bring this up, because in an interview with Zahn, he pretty much said that he just watched the movies, to see the limits of the Force. He was once again serving continuity by basing his assumptions on cannon facts, which at the time was the OT, so please kindly piss off with TPM, because obviously it overides him, however had it not come out, his interpretation is the closest to cannon.Carzy_Vasey wrote:Well my main issues are with the HoT duology, TTT was just a distinctly average set of books that I really don't care about too much. I don't care for his view of the force at all, in fact after reading interviews with him Lucas has blatantly contradicted his view in the PT. If I can find the interview I'm thinking of here I'll post a link but Zahn pretty much says that a Jedi can't do things like running at superspeed and can only handle a few blasters at once. Heh, better tell Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan that they can't do what they were doing :p
I honestly know nothing about this, as I said all I know was that he was the first to be published. I would however like to know where you are getting all of this info from.Crazy_Vasey wrote:No. He knew about Dark Empire, he had all the info he needed to be compatible with it. Hell all he had to do was mention the emperor reborn once or twice and include Anakin Solo and it would have probably been fine. He decided to ignore it because he didn't like it; that is sheer fucking arrogance and a complete lack of professionalism.
Said by Lucus 01 if I remeber right when asked which of the EU he liked bestLucus:Who do I like the best? Well I have to say I liked Zahns work he seemed to capture that whole feel of Star-Wars that I aways wanted people to get
