How should the Clone Wars have been Done?

[KraytKing]

It's not "the single biggest mistake". Logically there would have been more clones who defied the order and refused to plug their commanders and the chips addresses that plot hole. The Chips were put in during the cloning process and it's far easier to put chips into clones being grown in secret.

That isn't a plot hole! Logically, soldiers do what the fuck they are ordered to do, and surprise surprise if it means killing the weird ass space monks that for some reason are supposed to lead armies. If you took a SEAL team and put the fucking Dalai Lama in charge, do you really think they would hesitate when the President said "alright knock him off." The plot hole, if anything, is that the clones ever obeyed the Jedi in the first place.

If you do insist that this is a plot hole, you can fix it by saying that there WERE more Jedi who survived the Purge, they were just hunted down afterwards. Easy enough. Doesn't involve absolving low level Nazis of guilt.

Also the Jedi DO value the lives of the clones and for the most part (Pong Krell excluded) try to avoid throwing them into the meat grinder. That's going to earn some respect from the clones.

I don't think the Jedi would send the clones into meat grinders deliberately, I'm saying that the philosophy of war possessed by the two parties is incompatibly different. Picture this. A platoon patrols a Separatist world with a Jedi, and a child approaches, looking scared. The Jedi calls him forward to rescue him, despite the warnings of the clones that he'll only slow them down. But it doesn't matter--the child is a suicide bomber, pressed into a terrible service in a war that has only brought him death. The Jedi (WHO IS NOT A FUCKING GOD) isn't searching the child's mind for malice, and so doesn't notice until too late. The Jedi survives by the power of the Force, but two clones are killed. The next day, another child approaches; this time, the clones want to shoot him on sight. The Jedi orders otherwise: this war will be won with compassion or not at all. The child is allowed to approach, but the Jedi detects hate in him. Hate alone doesn't mean guilt--he might be unarmed. The Jedi demands a search, but while they're distracted, an ambush is launched. More clones die, but they are victorious. The Jedi has valued the lives of his men and the lives of others, and that has gotten clones killed. A clone commander would have shot both children on sight, and gone by unbothered. This would clearly generate resentment. If you disagree, you are a fool.

Essentially there would have been more clones refusing to just shoot the Jedi unless something like the chip existed.

Also it depends on how large the Jedi were. Going by the prequels there were 10,000 Jedi in a galaxy of billions. Most people would never have met a Jedi, and Palpatine would have spread a misinformation campaign to erase their memory.

You can have more of the clones WANT to disobey, but be surrounded by men who do. Just like the police battalions, where most of the men followed orders they knew to be monstrous, and very, very few stood up and fought when surrounded by compatriots obedient to the Party. If a hundred clones in a legion decide they won't kill their commander, then they'll die too.

And of course, any Jedi that somehow make it out can form the basis of another Clone War. Imperial clones versus the Jedi remnants, this war not mentioned in the history books.

Also, dude. You know you can just quote the part of my post you talk about, right? You don't have to divide it up like I do, but you can delete the irrelevant bits. Cut down the length a little.

[Crazedwraith]

It's not "the single biggest mistake". Logically there would have been more clones who defied the order and refused to plug their commanders and the chips addresses that plot hole. The Chips were put in during the cloning process and it's far easier to put chips into clones being grown in secret.

That isn't a plot hole! Logically, soldiers do what the fuck they are ordered to do, and surprise surprise if it means killing the weird ass space monks that for some reason are supposed to lead armies. If you took a SEAL team and put the fucking Dalai Lama in charge, do you really think they would hesitate when the President said "alright knock him off." The plot hole, if anything, is that the clones ever obeyed the Jedi in the first place.

Lol, what? You seem to be confusing "plot hole" with "aspect of the films I don't like". The Jedi are legally empowered as their officers. eg) Generals/Starfighter Commanders. Why wouldn't they obey their legal superiors? Especially when they'd be raised/conditioned to be totally obedient?

LAMA SU
We modified their genetic
structure to make them less
independent than the original
host. As a result they are
totally obedient, taking any order
without question.

That's why they neither object to Jedi leading them or to the legal command to murder those same Jedi. the ones that object in Legends were iirc either ARC Troopers or Commandos who not subjected to the same amount of obedience conditioning because Commandos needed to be independent and creative for their jobs.

But if you have normal people with a commanding officer with three years (even an odd one) who are together through thick and thin through the whole time, hell yes they're going to hesitate and question knocking them off. Soldier are only supposed to obey legal orders in the real world murdering your COs would be illegal.

[KraytKing]

It's not "the single biggest mistake". Logically there would have been more clones who defied the order and refused to plug their commanders and the chips addresses that plot hole. The Chips were put in during the cloning process and it's far easier to put chips into clones being grown in secret.

That isn't a plot hole! Logically, soldiers do what the fuck they are ordered to do, and surprise surprise if it means killing the weird ass space monks that for some reason are supposed to lead armies. If you took a SEAL team and put the fucking Dalai Lama in charge, do you really think they would hesitate when the President said "alright knock him off." The plot hole, if anything, is that the clones ever obeyed the Jedi in the first place.

Lol, what? You seem to be confusing "plot hole" with "aspect of the films I don't like". The Jedi are legally empowered as their officers. eg) Generals/Starfighter Commanders. Why wouldn't they obey their legal superiors? Especially when they'd be raised/conditioned to be totally obedient?

LAMA SU
We modified their genetic
structure to make them less
independent than the original
host. As a result they are
totally obedient, taking any order
without question.

That's why they neither object to Jedi leading them or to the legal command to murder those same Jedi. the ones that object in Legends were iirc either ARC Troopers or Commandos who not subjected to the same amount of obedience conditioning because Commandos needed to be independent and creative for their jobs.

But if you have normal people with a commanding officer with three years (even an odd one) who are together through thick and thin through the whole time, hell yes they're going to hesitate and question knocking them off. Soldier are only supposed to obey legal orders in the real world murdering your COs would be illegal.

In this world, it is legal and written into the regulations of the army. Clearly. It isn't ALL COs, only the Jedi, because they are effectively an outside hierarchy tacked on to the military hierarchy. The Jedi Order is independent from the Republic and does not take orders from the Chancellor, but the clones are integral to the Republic and take orders DIRECTLY from the Chancellor. It is not at all akin to the President ordering the Marine Corps to kill their lieutenants, because the clones have lieutenants, and they aren't being executed for treason. The reason the order exists is precisely BECAUSE the Jedi Order is independent from the ordinary military command structure, so it is possible that the goals of the Jedi do not align with the goals of the Republic, the Senate, or the Chancellor.

You're right about that not being a plot hole, though, I'll retract that statement. It was hyperbole in response to what I thought of as a ridiculous statement by Darth Yan.

Separately, again we have the "modified their genetic structure to be more loyal." Fuck that, humans are already like that. No need to make them genetically different other than wanting to believe you're an "inDepEndeNT SpiRiT."

[Darth Yan]

The Jedi would have spent years fighting alongside the clones, through thick and thin (and in the case of most Jedi being as benevolent as possible). That kind of thing DOES build a bond between soldiers and their commanders, and the Jedi are stated point blank to be the commanders. The clones are also shown to develop beyond what they were originally created for.

Like it or not in such circumstances there are going to be a fair number who refuse to follow orders and Palpatine is not going to want that.

If every last clone really did go through all that (three years of fighting besides them, getting to know them, being treated with decency) then they're ALREADY robots.

From a logical standpoint (i.e. wanting to ensure complete compliance and leaving as few alive as possible) the chips make sense. You don't like that but there is a logical reason to include them beyond "oh I don't want the clones to be as bad".

[KraytKing]

We must disagree fundamentally. Yes, the Jedi and the clones have been fighting alongside each other for years. Yes, that brings people together, OR, it drives them apart. Combat is a stressor like many other things, so here's an example us civilians can understand. If you go on vacation with some family you hate, and things start to go wrong, you will not be brought closer together. By the end of it, you will hate each other WAY more. Conversely, with family you love, those same stressors will bring you together in solving them. Fighting, killing, and dying are those same stressors dialed up to 11, so it will have the same effect. If the Jedi are being fucking head up their own ass, holier-than-thou, impractical magic morons, why in the name of fuck would the clones get closer to them?

The Jedi might try to get to know the clones, but because of the nature of both of them, it cannot work. The Jedi are all wise men, and if you've ever met one of those, they are INSUFFERABLE. They have no qualification to call themselves more wise than anyone around them, and all their followers look down on you if you dare to think "well I can be wise too." Now imagine one of these insufferable wise men, but he actually has power, and the people he is surrounded by are all ten years old and have never known anything outside of their training. Now imagine it from the perspective of the clones. They are masters of the art of death, but this bearded, pretentious asshole thinks that because HE read the texts of so-and-so the Great, he knows so much more about everything than you possibly could and is therefore qualified to lead men. That, my friend, is fucking ridiculous. Three years on, the clones that survive the naivety of the Jedi will hate them bitterly, UNLESS the Jedi learned from the clones to be more ruthless and better at winning wars. Which of course is the dark side, so mission accomplished, no need to kill them.

I keep saying that the clones and the Jedi have nothing in common and would not work well together, and you keep falling back on the simplistic "well adrenaline brings people together" you got from the movies.

[bilateralrope]

How much were the clones designed to work with the Jedi ?

The extermination of the Jedi was the plan from the start. So the clones needed to draw the Jedi into fighting alongside them so that they would be surrounded when Order 66 was declared.

Which also gets into the one thing the biochips allow that indoctrination does not: The biochips can mean that the clones like the Jedi and still reliably carry out Order 66. So no risk of the Jedi sensing an emotion that makes them suspicious.

[Darth Yan]

We must disagree fundamentally. Yes, the Jedi and the clones have been fighting alongside each other for years. Yes, that brings people together, OR, it drives them apart. Combat is a stressor like many other things, so here's an example us civilians can understand. If you go on vacation with some family you hate, and things start to go wrong, you will not be brought closer together. By the end of it, you will hate each other WAY more. Conversely, with family you love, those same stressors will bring you together in solving them. Fighting, killing, and dying are those same stressors dialed up to 11, so it will have the same effect. If the Jedi are being fucking head up their own ass, holier-than-thou, impractical magic morons, why in the name of fuck would the clones get closer to them?

The Jedi might try to get to know the clones, but because of the nature of both of them, it cannot work. The Jedi are all wise men, and if you've ever met one of those, they are INSUFFERABLE. They have no qualification to call themselves more wise than anyone around them, and all their followers look down on you if you dare to think "well I can be wise too." Now imagine one of these insufferable wise men, but he actually has power, and the people he is surrounded by are all ten years old and have never known anything outside of their training. Now imagine it from the perspective of the clones. They are masters of the art of death, but this bearded, pretentious asshole thinks that because HE read the texts of so-and-so the Great, he knows so much more about everything than you possibly could and is therefore qualified to lead men. That, my friend, is fucking ridiculous. Three years on, the clones that survive the naivety of the Jedi will hate them bitterly, UNLESS the Jedi learned from the clones to be more ruthless and better at winning wars. Which of course is the dark side, so mission accomplished, no need to kill them.

I keep saying that the clones and the Jedi have nothing in common and would not work well together, and you keep falling back on the simplistic "well adrenaline brings people together" you got from the movies.

Except you're basing it on a flawed premise.

1.) Certain Jedi are stated to have strong relationships with their clones in the movies and EU (Ki Adi Mundi and Bacara, Obi Wan and Cody, Ahsoka and Rex, Plo Koon and his clones, Yoda and his clones) so you're already using your own head canon and assuming how certain things MUST be that way.

2.) Also you ignore that the Jedi are a lot more than "insufferable". Many (Plo Koon, Yoda, Obi Wan) are fairly easy going and humble rather than insufferable assholes.

3.) Certain Jedi (Yoda, Mace Windu, Kenobi, Plo Koon, Obi Wan Kenobi) also show actual tactical ability and competence without just going to the dark side so again you're injecting your headcanon.

You assume things MUST be a certain way.

You think that the clones are mindless robots who would just choose to follow orders rather than thinking feeling creatures capable of evolving and reacting to stimuli and positive experience (Generals who treat them like people rather than cheap cannon fodder), and that Jedi are just arrogant insufferable assholes with no clue what they're doing.

Heck as Bilateralrope pointed out the clones would have alerted the Jedi if they hated them. The Jedi would have been on guard and that is the last thing Palpy wanted.

[Gandalf]

But if you have normal people with a commanding officer with three years (even an odd one) who are together through thick and thin through the whole time, hell yes they're going to hesitate and question knocking them off. Soldier are only supposed to obey legal orders in the real world murdering your COs would be illegal.

To be fair though, it's not like soldiers have always backed down from illegal orders, like My Lai or any number of horrific massacres. Plenty of atrocities have occurred because someone ordered something, and the person on the receiving end said "orders are orders."

Order 66 could even be more complex than just "Kill Jedi." It could even be an Operation Valkyrie type order, where it means "The Jedi have attempted a coup (or whatever.) Wipe them out before they do more damage."

[Solauren]

Yeah, my version had distinct wars as well. My problem with civil wars, is they don't seem galactic in scale. It seems mismatched with the Separatist Crisis, not worthy of being titled "the Second Clone War."

Depends on the civil war.

Then I say Mandalore, that would include all of EU Mandalore's former territory (they used to be a multi-sector Empire). So in addition to the galactic wide war, you have several sectors focused on killing each other, while possible one faction is trying to expand into other sectors to increase territory.

And with hyperspace speeds, that could also include a Mandalorian task force popping up 10,000 light years away, and wrecking a Republic staging area before leaving back to their territory.

[KraytKing]

How much were the clones designed to work with the Jedi ?

The extermination of the Jedi was the plan from the start. So the clones needed to draw the Jedi into fighting alongside them so that they would be surrounded when Order 66 was declared.

Which also gets into the one thing the biochips allow that indoctrination does not: The biochips can mean that the clones like the Jedi and still reliably carry out Order 66. So no risk of the Jedi sensing an emotion that makes them suspicious.

Ah, but I think the clones being hateful, irredeemable war criminals would be EXACTLY what draws the Jedi in. The Jedi are not generals, they are peacekeepers. If the clones are easygoing guys who try to do the right thing even if it costs them, then what is the impetus for the Jedi to take command? The clones will fight a good war on their own. The Jedi have no special abilities that makes it NECESSARY for them to be generals, in a perfect galaxy they would take part in the war only by individual choice, and probably by going off to do their own missions, not leading clunky armies.

Instead, they're offered a choice. If they don't take the helm of this army of professional killers, then men like Tarkin will, men who will unleash the clones completely. The good are forced to do bad things because if they don't, then someone without morals will. The Jedi believe they can do better, so it is their moral responsibility to take command even though they would prefer to do their own thing. This ensures that it isn't just a handful of Jedi who prefer to lead men--it guilts all of them into leaving their comfort zone. It forces the Council to demand all Jedi lead armies, to try and limit the horror.

And when the Jedi grow accustomed to sensing nothing but malice surrounding them at all times, what will it do to them? Turn them dark? Mission accomplished. Drive them insane? Good, you can execute them earlier. Or just numb them to the tremendous evil surrounding them? Also good, helps keep Sidious and the Dark Jedi hidden.

Except you're basing it on a flawed premise.

1.) Certain Jedi are stated to have strong relationships with their clones in the movies and EU (Ki Adi Mundi and Bacara, Obi Wan and Cody, Ahsoka and Rex, Plo Koon and his clones, Yoda and his clones) so you're already using your own head canon and assuming how certain things MUST be that way.

We really only see things from the perspective of the Jedi and a small handful of clones. It is entirely possible that those men are not representative of the rest of the army. Bringing up Bacara is a little strange since essentially the only time we see him is gunning down Mundi without hesitation. Plo Koon might have fallen to the Dark Side based on later episodes of the Clone Wars, and a dark Jedi would probably be well appreciated by the troopers. And the show is also pretty fucking stupid, so I think it's pretty reasonable to not hold to what it thinks would happen. They really had a tendency to take an interesting setup and turn it into the exact same thing as we always get. How does a space invasion of an entire hostile WORLD work? Huh, EXACTLY like D-day except smaller.

2.) Also you ignore that the Jedi are a lot more than "insufferable". Many (Plo Koon, Yoda, Obi Wan) are fairly easy going and humble rather than insufferable assholes.

That's a bit of a good point, but try to view it from the clones' side. Episode 1, when Yoda and a couple of clones crash land and have to fight off a large number of droids. Yoda explains to the clones that they are very different in the Force, treating them like children. That would piss me the hell OFF. Obviously they know they're all different! They all gave each other names, which makes no sense if you can't tell each other apart! Yoda is imparting a lesson in wisdom that is obvious to these clones, if anything he should be learning from them. The well-meaning attitude just makes it worse.

3.) Certain Jedi (Yoda, Mace Windu, Kenobi, Plo Koon, Obi Wan Kenobi) also show actual tactical ability and competence without just going to the dark side so again you're injecting your headcanon.

You assume things MUST be a certain way.

Mace Windu practiced Vaapad and famously skirted the dark side, so I would expect him to be one who could become a soldier without becoming a Dark Jedi. Probably one of the survivors, for a couple of reasons. He might be popular enough among enough of his men to get forewarning before the execution, or he might be on the no-kill list of Dark Jedi. Probably not intentionally for the second one, since he is a Council Master and so probably too dangerous to be left alive, like Plo Koon.

When Star Wars gives us rules for what the Dark Side is, and then shows a Jedi doing those things, but doesn't give them yellow eyes or play the Imperial March or make his face visibly shadowed, do we have to say "well gee, that sure was evil, but if I don't hear that Emperor throat singing then I guess it was righteous!" Dropping a building full of slavers who might surrender and be prosecuted under Republic legal systems into a volcano to die a horrible death is evil. It is the practical decision, obviously, but being a Jedi does not mean making practical decisions. That is how the horror of war turns them dark.

You think that the clones are mindless robots who would just choose to follow orders rather than thinking feeling creatures capable of evolving and reacting to stimuli and positive experience (Generals who treat them like people rather than cheap cannon fodder), and that Jedi are just arrogant insufferable assholes with no clue what they're doing.

Yes, I do think that, because that is what the fuck HUMANS DO! I keep going back to the Nazi example, but don't call Godwin's Law on me because Star Wars is pretty obviously about Nazis. There were heroes in Germany who sheltered Jews and disobeyed the Reich, but they were a minority. Most of the Heer did exactly that: when they were ordered through the proper channels, by the supreme command of the Reich, they went out and shot the Jews. They did what they knew was wrong, in a manner we would call robotic. They did not do it because they were mind controlled, but because we all have within us the potential to commit horror if properly prompted.

Heck as Bilateralrope pointed out the clones would have alerted the Jedi if they hated them. The Jedi would have been on guard and that is the last thing Palpy wanted.

A moment of hate after years of camaraderie would stand out, yes. But if the Jedi had only known hate for the years of commanding an army they felt morally obligated to lead, they probably would have just gotten used to the new status quo. When the time came for the clones to kill them all, there would have been nothing different from normal. The Jedi would have been used to the clones hating them and assumed it was for all the obvious reasons: the clones want to commit war crimes, the Jedi won't let them.

[Darth Yan]

How much were the clones designed to work with the Jedi ?

The extermination of the Jedi was the plan from the start. So the clones needed to draw the Jedi into fighting alongside them so that they would be surrounded when Order 66 was declared.

Which also gets into the one thing the biochips allow that indoctrination does not: The biochips can mean that the clones like the Jedi and still reliably carry out Order 66. So no risk of the Jedi sensing an emotion that makes them suspicious.

Ah, but I think the clones being hateful, irredeemable war criminals would be EXACTLY what draws the Jedi in. The Jedi are not generals, they are peacekeepers. If the clones are easygoing guys who try to do the right thing even if it costs them, then what is the impetus for the Jedi to take command? The clones will fight a good war on their own. The Jedi have no special abilities that makes it NECESSARY for them to be generals, in a perfect galaxy they would take part in the war only by individual choice, and probably by going off to do their own missions, not leading clunky armies.

Instead, they're offered a choice. If they don't take the helm of this army of professional killers, then men like Tarkin will, men who will unleash the clones completely. The good are forced to do bad things because if they don't, then someone without morals will. The Jedi believe they can do better, so it is their moral responsibility to take command even though they would prefer to do their own thing. This ensures that it isn't just a handful of Jedi who prefer to lead men--it guilts all of them into leaving their comfort zone. It forces the Council to demand all Jedi lead armies, to try and limit the horror.

And when the Jedi grow accustomed to sensing nothing but malice surrounding them at all times, what will it do to them? Turn them dark? Mission accomplished. Drive them insane? Good, you can execute them earlier. Or just numb them to the tremendous evil surrounding them? Also good, helps keep Sidious and the Dark Jedi hidden.

Except you're basing it on a flawed premise.

1.) Certain Jedi are stated to have strong relationships with their clones in the movies and EU (Ki Adi Mundi and Bacara, Obi Wan and Cody, Ahsoka and Rex, Plo Koon and his clones, Yoda and his clones) so you're already using your own head canon and assuming how certain things MUST be that way.

We really only see things from the perspective of the Jedi and a small handful of clones. It is entirely possible that those men are not representative of the rest of the army. Bringing up Bacara is a little strange since essentially the only time we see him is gunning down Mundi without hesitation. Plo Koon might have fallen to the Dark Side based on later episodes of the Clone Wars, and a dark Jedi would probably be well appreciated by the troopers. And the show is also pretty fucking stupid, so I think it's pretty reasonable to not hold to what it thinks would happen. They really had a tendency to take an interesting setup and turn it into the exact same thing as we always get. How does a space invasion of an entire hostile WORLD work? Huh, EXACTLY like D-day except smaller.

2.) Also you ignore that the Jedi are a lot more than "insufferable". Many (Plo Koon, Yoda, Obi Wan) are fairly easy going and humble rather than insufferable assholes.

That's a bit of a good point, but try to view it from the clones' side. Episode 1, when Yoda and a couple of clones crash land and have to fight off a large number of droids. Yoda explains to the clones that they are very different in the Force, treating them like children. That would piss me the hell OFF. Obviously they know they're all different! They all gave each other names, which makes no sense if you can't tell each other apart! Yoda is imparting a lesson in wisdom that is obvious to these clones, if anything he should be learning from them. The well-meaning attitude just makes it worse.

3.) Certain Jedi (Yoda, Mace Windu, Kenobi, Plo Koon, Obi Wan Kenobi) also show actual tactical ability and competence without just going to the dark side so again you're injecting your headcanon.

You assume things MUST be a certain way.

Mace Windu practiced Vaapad and famously skirted the dark side, so I would expect him to be one who could become a soldier without becoming a Dark Jedi. Probably one of the survivors, for a couple of reasons. He might be popular enough among enough of his men to get forewarning before the execution, or he might be on the no-kill list of Dark Jedi. Probably not intentionally for the second one, since he is a Council Master and so probably too dangerous to be left alive, like Plo Koon.

When Star Wars gives us rules for what the Dark Side is, and then shows a Jedi doing those things, but doesn't give them yellow eyes or play the Imperial March or make his face visibly shadowed, do we have to say "well gee, that sure was evil, but if I don't hear that Emperor throat singing then I guess it was righteous!" Dropping a building full of slavers who might surrender and be prosecuted under Republic legal systems into a volcano to die a horrible death is evil. It is the practical decision, obviously, but being a Jedi does not mean making practical decisions. That is how the horror of war turns them dark.

You think that the clones are mindless robots who would just choose to follow orders rather than thinking feeling creatures capable of evolving and reacting to stimuli and positive experience (Generals who treat them like people rather than cheap cannon fodder), and that Jedi are just arrogant insufferable assholes with no clue what they're doing.

Yes, I do think that, because that is what the fuck HUMANS DO! I keep going back to the Nazi example, but don't call Godwin's Law on me because Star Wars is pretty obviously about Nazis. There were heroes in Germany who sheltered Jews and disobeyed the Reich, but they were a minority. Most of the Heer did exactly that: when they were ordered through the proper channels, by the supreme command of the Reich, they went out and shot the Jews. They did what they knew was wrong, in a manner we would call robotic. They did not do it because they were mind controlled, but because we all have within us the potential to commit horror if properly prompted.

Heck as Bilateralrope pointed out the clones would have alerted the Jedi if they hated them. The Jedi would have been on guard and that is the last thing Palpy wanted.

A moment of hate after years of camaraderie would stand out, yes. But if the Jedi had only known hate for the years of commanding an army they felt morally obligated to lead, they probably would have just gotten used to the new status quo. When the time came for the clones to kill them all, there would have been nothing different from normal. The Jedi would have been used to the clones hating them and assumed it was for all the obvious reasons: the clones want to commit war crimes, the Jedi won't let them.

1.) Because the Republic ordered it and they do what the republic asks them to. And contrary to what you think professional soldiers aren't just ruthless war criminals; if they were they'd be a shit army. The clones are also trained to obey orders.

2.) The Jedi are flawed and the war does effect them but the dark side is a somewhat gradual process. Even Anakin didn't fall overnight.

3.) The Jedi encourage the "giving each other names" practice as well. You might find it condescending. Doesn't mean the clones will, especially since the Jedi live in the same conditions as the clones.

4.) You also ignore context regarding the Nazis; they were also bombarded with propaganda about how the Jews were evil enemies of the reich who needed to be killed. Clones would have been bombarded with propaganda about how they needed to obey their generals (the Jedi in this case) and would have indeed fought alongside them as comrades.


The show contradicts your vision of the canon so that's why you hate it.

[Crazedwraith]

In this world, it is legal and written into the regulations of the army. Clearly. It isn't ALL COs, only the Jedi, because they are effectively an outside hierarchy tacked on to the military hierarchy. The Jedi Order is independent from the Republic and does not take orders from the Chancellor, but the clones are integral to the Republic and take orders DIRECTLY from the Chancellor. It is not at all akin to the President ordering the Marine Corps to kill their lieutenants, because the clones have lieutenants, and they aren't being executed for treason. The reason the order exists is precisely BECAUSE the Jedi Order is independent from the ordinary military command structure, so it is possible that the goals of the Jedi do not align with the goals of the Republic, the Senate, or the Chancellor.

This isn't technically incorrect but it's irrelevant to what we were talking about. The Jedi's quasi-independent status does not mean the clones wouldn't bond with them after years of being in the shit together.

Separately, again we have the "modified their genetic structure to be more loyal." Fuck that, humans are already like that. No need to make them genetically different other than wanting to believe you're an "inDepEndeNT SpiRiT."

No, humans are not automatically mindlessly obedient.

You can get them to do a lot of things with training and conditioning but you can't guarantee they'll do exactly what you want when you want. Take My Lai massacre Gandalf mentions. There were Us Military just following orders and carrying out, there were other members there trying to put a stop to it.

But if you have normal people with a commanding officer with three years (even an odd one) who are together through thick and thin through the whole time, hell yes they're going to hesitate and question knocking them off. Soldier are only supposed to obey legal orders in the real world murdering your COs would be illegal.

To be fair though, it's not like soldiers have always backed down from illegal orders, like My Lai or any number of horrific massacres. Plenty of atrocities have occurred because someone ordered something, and the person on the receiving end said "orders are orders."

Order 66 could even be more complex than just "Kill Jedi." It could even be an Operation Valkyrie type order, where it means "The Jedi have attempted a coup (or whatever.) Wipe them out before they do more damage."

Oh absolutely correct on both counts but it really matter, I think, exactly who is ordering illegal things, what they are and the person carrying them out. Your immediate CO ordering you to go too far on the people you're already fighting is a different proposition from some one far above you in the line of command telling you to murder some-one you are close to. It would obviously vary a lot from individual to individual how close they were to the jedi and how willing they are to kill them at a drop of the hat without conditioning of some kind.

The RotS novelisation gives the impression that since the clones were only following orders. emotionally and without malice, it helps get around the Jedi danger sense at least partially. So for that to work you need literally every troop to be on board I would think.

And you're probably right about how Order 66 was on the books. It certainly fits with how Palpatine presents it to the senate and I think that's how Karen Traviss presents it, and she has order 67 being a similar contingency about the chancellor.

-

Really I don't see much distinction between the original film's brainwashing and conditioning and biochips other that biochips are slightly more comprehensible for a younger audience and it's easier to understand how the clone wars plotline with them, wherein order 66 is triggered early can happen as well as allowing it to be removed for they could have good guy Clones in Rebels. (whether those plotlines are worth it to people to justify the chips is another matter, I'm just guessing here since I've never seen the CGI Clone Wars or Rebels)

[KraytKing]

1.) Because the Republic ordered it and they do what the republic asks them to. And contrary to what you think professional soldiers aren't just ruthless war criminals; if they were they'd be a shit army. The clones are also trained to obey orders.

No, the Jedi stand separate from the Republic. Windu says point blank I think that "politicians have no voice in Jedi matters." Turning from mediators into strategists and logisticians is definitely a Jedi matter.

You're right to call me out, I am getting a bit overzealous in stating what I believe the ferocity of the clones should be. No, I don't think they're animals, you're right. I just think they're soldier unrestrained. If there's a strategically unimportant civilian population harboring enemy fighters, well, obviously you kill the civilian population. Completely practical to a man who has known only war, completely incomprehensible to a Jedi who has known only peace.

2.) The Jedi are flawed and the war does effect them but the dark side is a somewhat gradual process. Even Anakin didn't fall overnight.

Agreed. It takes years of war, which we see. The Jedi START good, for sure, and then the point of the Clone Wars show is to watch them tumble. Every once in a while the showrunners remember what they're doing and show Anakin falling, and occasionally its for a good reason. But they don't ever consider that it might have also affected other Jedi for the same reasons. Meh.

3.) The Jedi encourage the "giving each other names" practice as well. You might find it condescending. Doesn't mean the clones will, especially since the Jedi live in the same conditions as the clones.

I don't find the giving of names condescending at all, that is certainly part of bonding. What I found condescending about that episode in particular is that Yoda was explaining to the clones that just because they look the same, doesn't mean their souls are the same. I would find it similar to a middle schooler telling me "just because you're gay doesn't mean you're any different from your regular friends!" Like, yes, they mean well, but it is not a positive interaction. Now, add in the stress of trying not to be killed and being in pain, and I can see wanting to just shoot the cunt.

4.) You also ignore context regarding the Nazis; they were also bombarded with propaganda about how the Jews were evil enemies of the reich who needed to be killed. Clones would have been bombarded with propaganda about how they needed to obey their generals (the Jedi in this case) and would have indeed fought alongside them as comrades.


The show contradicts your vision of the canon so that's why you hate it.

Yes, there is context. That is what should have been added by the Clone Wars shows, the chips is partly a cop out because they forgot to do any explaining for six seasons and then suddenly needed to do it all at once.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely don't agree with what the prequels gave us. It's a bit weird that all it took was an unverified hologram of a guy who doesn't even look like the Chancellor. Our disagreement stems mostly from the way they chose to explain it. To me, it is lazy and drives directly away from any kind of moral, and specifically away from the very moral on which Star Wars was founded.

In this world, it is legal and written into the regulations of the army. Clearly. It isn't ALL COs, only the Jedi, because they are effectively an outside hierarchy tacked on to the military hierarchy. The Jedi Order is independent from the Republic and does not take orders from the Chancellor, but the clones are integral to the Republic and take orders DIRECTLY from the Chancellor. It is not at all akin to the President ordering the Marine Corps to kill their lieutenants, because the clones have lieutenants, and they aren't being executed for treason. The reason the order exists is precisely BECAUSE the Jedi Order is independent from the ordinary military command structure, so it is possible that the goals of the Jedi do not align with the goals of the Republic, the Senate, or the Chancellor.

This isn't technically incorrect but it's irrelevant to what we were talking about. The Jedi's quasi-independent status does not mean the clones wouldn't bond with them after years of being in the shit together.

I don't really disagree, I think other reasons would contribute to that, and I think that being in the shit would more often lead to Jedi becoming more like clones than clones becoming more like Jedi. But the reason I brought it up is because it makes it more believable that the Jedi could be branded as an existential threat to the Republic. Since they have their own communications and are very much a part of a cult separate and apart from the clones, it is easy to imagine that all of them could turn at once. It also means that they aren't fully integrated into the command structure, some parallel organization such as proto-Moffs could feasibly step in and keep the army from totally disintegrating.

Separately, again we have the "modified their genetic structure to be more loyal." Fuck that, humans are already like that. No need to make them genetically different other than wanting to believe you're an "inDepEndeNT SpiRiT."

No, humans are not automatically mindlessly obedient.

You can get them to do a lot of things with training and conditioning but you can't guarantee they'll do exactly what you want when you want. Take My Lai massacre Gandalf mentions. There were Us Military just following orders and carrying out, there were other members there trying to put a stop to it.

My point wasn't that humans are mindlessly obedient, it was that you don't need to gene-mod obedience in to have a functional army. Doing so just divorces the clones from reality, makes them no longer sympathetic characters that might encourage introspection. Anything that they do means nothing to us.

We're pulling away from what I wrote out to start this argument, but in my version of the Clone Wars, the clones don't turn against the Jedi on a dime like in Revenge of the Sith. We agree that that was stupid. In my version, most clones and Jedi don't ever really bond because of the Jedi superiority complex disguised as wisdom, and when the time comes for the Purge it is because the Jedi really are launching a coup, with incontrovertible evidence given.

Really I don't see much distinction between the original film's brainwashing and conditioning and biochips other that biochips are slightly more comprehensible for a younger audience and it's easier to understand how the clone wars plotline with them, wherein order 66 is triggered early can happen as well as allowing it to be removed for they could have good guy Clones in Rebels. (whether those plotlines are worth it to people to justify the chips is another matter, I'm just guessing here since I've never seen the CGI Clone Wars or Rebels)

They had two directions they could have gone: show how good people can do bad things in the name of expedience, or make them into not people. They did the second one. You don't need the chips to justify anything that we saw, not the broad strokes at least, but coming up with an alternative is just more work. Even if the clones are cool guys like the Cody and Rex we see, the Jedi really did step in and remove the legally elected Chancellor. The choice between doing what's right and doing what's legal could have been explored, but they didn't. Lazy, and because "it's for kids" is a really good way to get a paycheck while generating nothing of value.

[Crazedwraith]

I think the line between proposing what how we'd do it and criticising The Clone War's biochips is getting very muddled here but...

My point wasn't that humans are mindlessly obedient, it was that you don't need to gene-mod obedience in to have a functional army. Doing so just divorces the clones from reality, makes them no longer sympathetic characters that might encourage introspection. Anything that they do means nothing to us.

We're pulling away from what I wrote out to start this argument, but in my version of the Clone Wars, the clones don't turn against the Jedi on a dime like in Revenge of the Sith. We agree that that was stupid. In my version, most clones and Jedi don't ever really bond because of the Jedi superiority complex disguised as wisdom, and when the time comes for the Purge it is because the Jedi really are launching a coup, with incontrovertible evidence given.

No, we don't agree that was stupid. The Clones turning against the Jedi on a dime is the whole point. Palpatine engineered the situation so he had reliable troops in place to stab the Jedi in the back at the right time.

The baiting the Jedi into couping him (and concealing the bits of the situation that make it an entirely reasonable course for the Jedi to take) is for the Senate and the people to convince them to go along with the Empire. Not the clones. it would be stupid for Palpatine to go through all that trouble to get a claim army in position if they're not going to be reliable.

Really I don't see much distinction between the original film's brainwashing and conditioning and biochips other that biochips are slightly more comprehensible for a younger audience and it's easier to understand how the clone wars plotline with them, wherein order 66 is triggered early can happen as well as allowing it to be removed for they could have good guy Clones in Rebels. (whether those plotlines are worth it to people to justify the chips is another matter, I'm just guessing here since I've never seen the CGI Clone Wars or Rebels)

They had two directions they could have gone: show how good people can do bad things in the name of expedience, or make them into not people. They did the second one. You don't need the chips to justify anything that we saw, not the broad strokes at least, but coming up with an alternative is just more work. Even if the clones are cool guys like the Cody and Rex we see, the Jedi really did step in and remove the legally elected Chancellor. The choice between doing what's right and doing what's legal could have been explored, but they didn't. Lazy, and because "it's for kids" is a really good way to get a paycheck while generating nothing of value.

The choice between what's right and what's legal is an interesting story but again it's not something you should be using the clones to explore for the same reasons as above. The clones are Palpatine's tools he wouldn't introduce them if he wasn't 100% sure of their conditioning and reliability. I can't believe I'm saying this but Shep has a point. You need a reason to have the clones that explains why they don't just mass conscript people, that they're brainwashed/biochip-ed into complete obedience is that reason.

[Darth Yan]

Pretty much. Palpatine would have wanted 100% compliance and as My Lai shows there WERE cases when soldiers have defied orders that were unjust and tried to help people.

During the Armenian genocide there were bereaucrats and soldiers who defied orders and tried to save people (one woman described how a soldier loaded her family onto a boat mere hours before the massacre was supposed to start. The soldier and his entire family were shot to death because the soldier helped them escape.)

Even in the most indoctrinated army there are going to be people who say "no, this is wrong, I won't do it" (and in the EU that did happen in one case with Roan Shryne). Palpatine wants the Jedi GONE and he wants them to not see it coming. The chips are probably the simplest way to do so without logistical problems.

What moral do you think it was founded on? That even good people can do bad things? That's part of it certainly but humans also have the potential to choose good.

[KraytKing]

No, hold on a minute. When did we decide that Palpatine's plan had to be 100% infallible? He is trying to overthrow the Republic and destroy the entire Jedi Order in one fell swoop, after the Jedi have been the sole visible representation of the Force in the galaxy for a thousand years and the most powerful for tens of thousands. Can he not be impressive without planning for literally every possible eventuality? If he destroys 70% of the Jedi Order in a few days of bloodletting, including the Temple, and has at the end of it sole control of a militarized state in control of most of the galaxy, then he has still won. The remaining Jedi can be hunted down easily enough while he secures his domain.

Let me clarify what I said about ROTS. The clones need to go from obeying the Jedi to killing the Jedi in a moment, they do NOT need to go from loving the Jedi to killing them. You can set up the clones to dislike the Jedi but grudgingly get along, but once you spend five seasons making them love each other, then you've kind of shot yourself in the foot. It isn't insurmountable, but you need to have more than two brain cells to rub together.

I mean, guys, come on. The Jedi have the power to alter minds. They are individually immensely powerful, and they follow the rules of a mysterious unelected body. OF COURSE they might need to be killed. Whether or not the clones like them or they like the clones, it has to be in the back of the mind of everyone who has ever MET a Jedi. They have SUCH incredible power to launch a coup; a small number can theoretically overpower the Chancellor's bodyguards, their high command and largest concentration is right next to the heart of the galactic government, they have their own communications infrastructure, and the masters might hold dictatorial power (no one knows, they don't talk about themselves). They are the scariest cunts around, no matter how benevolent they seem right now. If the order comes down that the Jedi have betrayed the Republic, the clones that like the Jedi aren't even going to be able to trust themselves! If I hesitate to pull the trigger, is that because I feel love towards Kenobi, or because the devious bastard is altering my mind and memories right now? And regardless, I have to act RIGHT NOW because if I don't, he might realize he's in danger and get me first.

I would argue that there is no possible reality in which the Jedi are a good thing, or superheroes, or wizards, or anything like it. That isn't being debated right now, and that kind of cynicism isn't really Star Wars in nature. But if we're talking realism, that's what's realistic. Those men are going to be afraid of a Jedi takeover the moment they meet one.

[KraytKing]

What moral do you think it was founded on? That even good people can do bad things? That's part of it certainly but humans also have the potential to choose good.

Sorry, forgot to respond to this. It has been a parable about Nazis for its entire existence. All the Imps wear stahlhelms, STORMTROOPERS for God's sake. By making the clones into mindless slaves, you make it seem like those responsible for the Holocaust had no choice in the matter, they were inexorably bound to the Fuhrer's will.

I know it slipped a little bit in the prequels, the allegory wasn't as clear. Audiences no longer draw the connection, generally. But those roots are still there, and I can still be mad when they get so far away.

[Darth Yan]

No the empire was the US. The Nazis were chosen for the aesthetics. It’s not the best comparison. And again Palpatine isn’t going to take chances. In your version there would be those who refused

[Darth Yan]

No, hold on a minute. When did we decide that Palpatine's plan had to be 100% infallible? He is trying to overthrow the Republic and destroy the entire Jedi Order in one fell swoop, after the Jedi have been the sole visible representation of the Force in the galaxy for a thousand years and the most powerful for tens of thousands. Can he not be impressive without planning for literally every possible eventuality? If he destroys 70% of the Jedi Order in a few days of bloodletting, including the Temple, and has at the end of it sole control of a militarized state in control of most of the galaxy, then he has still won. The remaining Jedi can be hunted down easily enough while he secures his domain.

Let me clarify what I said about ROTS. The clones need to go from obeying the Jedi to killing the Jedi in a moment, they do NOT need to go from loving the Jedi to killing them. You can set up the clones to dislike the Jedi but grudgingly get along, but once you spend five seasons making them love each other, then you've kind of shot yourself in the foot. It isn't insurmountable, but you need to have more than two brain cells to rub together.

I mean, guys, come on. The Jedi have the power to alter minds. They are individually immensely powerful, and they follow the rules of a mysterious unelected body. OF COURSE they might need to be killed. Whether or not the clones like them or they like the clones, it has to be in the back of the mind of everyone who has ever MET a Jedi. They have SUCH incredible power to launch a coup; a small number can theoretically overpower the Chancellor's bodyguards, their high command and largest concentration is right next to the heart of the galactic government, they have their own communications infrastructure, and the masters might hold dictatorial power (no one knows, they don't talk about themselves). They are the scariest cunts around, no matter how benevolent they seem right now. If the order comes down that the Jedi have betrayed the Republic, the clones that like the Jedi aren't even going to be able to trust themselves! If I hesitate to pull the trigger, is that because I feel love towards Kenobi, or because the devious bastard is altering my mind and memories right now? And regardless, I have to act RIGHT NOW because if I don't, he might realize he's in danger and get me first.

I would argue that there is no possible reality in which the Jedi are a good thing, or superheroes, or wizards, or anything like it. That isn't being debated right now, and that kind of cynicism isn't really Star Wars in nature. But if we're talking realism, that's what's realistic. Those men are going to be afraid of a Jedi takeover the moment they meet one.

For the single most important part of the plan? No. He would be paying THE most attention to that. And in Star Wars they are benevolent

[KraytKing]

No the empire was the US. The Nazis were chosen for the aesthetics. It’s not the best comparison. And again Palpatine isn’t going to take chances. In your version there would be those who refused

What. Are. You. Talking. About.

For the single most important part of the plan? No. He would be paying THE most attention to that. And in Star Wars they are benevolent

You're exhausting. Yes, he is paying the most attention to the most important part of the plan, the death of the Jedi. Seventy or eighty percent dead in a week is ALREADY a wild success, for some reason you have locked onto the idea that if he doesn't kill every Jedi but Kenobi and Yoda on day one, then his plan has completely failed.

It is still a masterful manipulation, it is still the mark of a master of deceit and a being powerful beyond imagining. Building a peaceful galaxy into a militarized police state is already an incredible feat, purging the Jedi is the final step and it can be a long fight, so long as a bunch are wiped out in the beginning. Order 66 is necessary, don't say I disagree, but it is ridiculous to demand it is 100% successful or Palpatine wouldn't have done it. All war is risk, and he's doing the BIGGEST war so it's a big ass risk.

The Jedi are benevolent and the nature of Star Wars is such that one cannot challenge that fact, which is why I'm not making the case that the Emperor was right to kill them all. The fear would still be there. You can't create a more perfect force for seizing power, perfectly emplaced right at the top levels of military and political command structure. That consideration HAS to be in the mind of every clone, so when the order came through that those fears had come true, it doesn't matter how benevolent the Jedi are. And they can control fucking minds. If there is ever any hint that a Jedi might have turned against the Republic, every single man near them is suddenly going to doubt their every thought. If I were in that position, I would either shoot the Jedi or myself, regardless of what reason and logic was telling me, because suddenly all of my mental faculties are suspect.

You know, I did just think of another possibility. Rex's arc into killing Ahsoka without hesitation (in the hypothetical world where the chips don't exist) could have started with Krell. The Jedi are powerful, but until Krell, they can be trusted. When Krell turns, Rex tries to trust him for as long as possible, but eventually is forced to realize that he is a traitor. That would shake his confidence in the whole system of Jedi generals, and raise an important question: should he feel guilty for not recognizing Krell as a traitor sooner, or was he being mentally subverted into following despite his misgivings? How would he be able to tell in the future if his thoughts were really his own? So after a few more seasons of that being developed, when the call comes in that more Jedi have gone the route of Krell, Rex has already spent a year or more paranoid about the sanctity of his own thoughts. How hard would it be to kill Ahsoka out of fear? That is a bit poetic; after all, fear is the path to the Dark Side.

This rambled a bit. The point is, there are a ton of justifications out there they could have used for the clones executing the Jedi that don't involve the chips. They can involve rewriting everything from TPM onwards, or basically keeping everything the same until about halfway through the show.

[Darth Yan]

No the empire was the US. The Nazis were chosen for the aesthetics. It’s not the best comparison. And again Palpatine isn’t going to take chances. In your version there would be those who refused

What. Are. You. Talking. About.

For the single most important part of the plan? No. He would be paying THE most attention to that. And in Star Wars they are benevolent

You're exhausting. Yes, he is paying the most attention to the most important part of the plan, the death of the Jedi. Seventy or eighty percent dead in a week is ALREADY a wild success, for some reason you have locked onto the idea that if he doesn't kill every Jedi but Kenobi and Yoda on day one, then his plan has completely failed.

It is still a masterful manipulation, it is still the mark of a master of deceit and a being powerful beyond imagining. Building a peaceful galaxy into a militarized police state is already an incredible feat, purging the Jedi is the final step and it can be a long fight, so long as a bunch are wiped out in the beginning. Order 66 is necessary, don't say I disagree, but it is ridiculous to demand it is 100% successful or Palpatine wouldn't have done it. All war is risk, and he's doing the BIGGEST war so it's a big ass risk.

The Jedi are benevolent and the nature of Star Wars is such that one cannot challenge that fact, which is why I'm not making the case that the Emperor was right to kill them all. The fear would still be there. You can't create a more perfect force for seizing power, perfectly emplaced right at the top levels of military and political command structure. That consideration HAS to be in the mind of every clone, so when the order came through that those fears had come true, it doesn't matter how benevolent the Jedi are. And they can control fucking minds. If there is ever any hint that a Jedi might have turned against the Republic, every single man near them is suddenly going to doubt their every thought. If I were in that position, I would either shoot the Jedi or myself, regardless of what reason and logic was telling me, because suddenly all of my mental faculties are suspect.

You know, I did just think of another possibility. Rex's arc into killing Ahsoka without hesitation (in the hypothetical world where the chips don't exist) could have started with Krell. The Jedi are powerful, but until Krell, they can be trusted. When Krell turns, Rex tries to trust him for as long as possible, but eventually is forced to realize that he is a traitor. That would shake his confidence in the whole system of Jedi generals, and raise an important question: should he feel guilty for not recognizing Krell as a traitor sooner, or was he being mentally subverted into following despite his misgivings? How would he be able to tell in the future if his thoughts were really his own? So after a few more seasons of that being developed, when the call comes in that more Jedi have gone the route of Krell, Rex has already spent a year or more paranoid about the sanctity of his own thoughts. How hard would it be to kill Ahsoka out of fear? That is a bit poetic; after all, fear is the path to the Dark Side.

This rambled a bit. The point is, there are a ton of justifications out there they could have used for the clones executing the Jedi that don't involve the chips. They can involve rewriting everything from TPM onwards, or basically keeping everything the same until about halfway through the show.

Palpatine's an egomaniac and sees the clones as his tools. He wouldn't tolerate ANY of them disobeying him (hell in Legends he has Vader go to kill the unit that DID disobey). And even 30% being around is still a threat because they could join together and try to take him out. So no. In that regard he's not going to want to take chances.

[Darth Yan]

No the empire was the US. The Nazis were chosen for the aesthetics. It’s not the best comparison. And again Palpatine isn’t going to take chances. In your version there would be those who refused

What. Are. You. Talking. About.

For the single most important part of the plan? No. He would be paying THE most attention to that. And in Star Wars they are benevolent

You're exhausting. Yes, he is paying the most attention to the most important part of the plan, the death of the Jedi. Seventy or eighty percent dead in a week is ALREADY a wild success, for some reason you have locked onto the idea that if he doesn't kill every Jedi but Kenobi and Yoda on day one, then his plan has completely failed.

It is still a masterful manipulation, it is still the mark of a master of deceit and a being powerful beyond imagining. Building a peaceful galaxy into a militarized police state is already an incredible feat, purging the Jedi is the final step and it can be a long fight, so long as a bunch are wiped out in the beginning. Order 66 is necessary, don't say I disagree, but it is ridiculous to demand it is 100% successful or Palpatine wouldn't have done it. All war is risk, and he's doing the BIGGEST war so it's a big ass risk.

The Jedi are benevolent and the nature of Star Wars is such that one cannot challenge that fact, which is why I'm not making the case that the Emperor was right to kill them all. The fear would still be there. You can't create a more perfect force for seizing power, perfectly emplaced right at the top levels of military and political command structure. That consideration HAS to be in the mind of every clone, so when the order came through that those fears had come true, it doesn't matter how benevolent the Jedi are. And they can control fucking minds. If there is ever any hint that a Jedi might have turned against the Republic, every single man near them is suddenly going to doubt their every thought. If I were in that position, I would either shoot the Jedi or myself, regardless of what reason and logic was telling me, because suddenly all of my mental faculties are suspect.

You know, I did just think of another possibility. Rex's arc into killing Ahsoka without hesitation (in the hypothetical world where the chips don't exist) could have started with Krell. The Jedi are powerful, but until Krell, they can be trusted. When Krell turns, Rex tries to trust him for as long as possible, but eventually is forced to realize that he is a traitor. That would shake his confidence in the whole system of Jedi generals, and raise an important question: should he feel guilty for not recognizing Krell as a traitor sooner, or was he being mentally subverted into following despite his misgivings? How would he be able to tell in the future if his thoughts were really his own? So after a few more seasons of that being developed, when the call comes in that more Jedi have gone the route of Krell, Rex has already spent a year or more paranoid about the sanctity of his own thoughts. How hard would it be to kill Ahsoka out of fear? That is a bit poetic; after all, fear is the path to the Dark Side.

This rambled a bit. The point is, there are a ton of justifications out there they could have used for the clones executing the Jedi that don't involve the chips. They can involve rewriting everything from TPM onwards, or basically keeping everything the same until about halfway through the show.

Lucas based the Empire on the US during Vietnam. He also borrowed British and German aesthetics but the US was the main inspiration.

[Gandalf]

Endornam sequence aside, where is the Empire as USA content?

Do you have any real sources to back that up?

[Darth Yan]

https://www.amc.com/blogs/george-lucas- ... -war--4271

https://www.history.com/news/the-real-h ... -star-wars

Palpatine was based on Richard Nixon

[Crazedwraith]

No, hold on a minute. When did we decide that Palpatine's plan had to be 100% infallible? He is trying to overthrow the Republic and destroy the entire Jedi Order in one fell swoop, after the Jedi have been the sole visible representation of the Force in the galaxy for a thousand years and the most powerful for tens of thousands. Can he not be impressive without planning for literally every possible eventuality? If he destroys 70% of the Jedi Order in a few days of bloodletting, including the Temple, and has at the end of it sole control of a militarized state in control of most of the galaxy, then he has still won. The remaining Jedi can be hunted down easily enough while he secures his domain.

I didn't say Palpatine's plan had to be 100% infallible. I said he had no interest in presenting the clones with a moral dilemma and trusting they'll eliminate the Jedi for him because apparently they will inevitably hate them. Why would he give them the chance to disobey if the technology exists in-universe to reduce or eliminate that possibility with clones? If anybody would inevitably hate and shoot the jedi for him as you seem to be implying, why a clone army at all?

Let me clarify what I said about ROTS. The clones need to go from obeying the Jedi to killing the Jedi in a moment, they do NOT need to go from loving the Jedi to killing them. You can set up the clones to dislike the Jedi but grudgingly get along, but once you spend five seasons making them love each other, then you've kind of shot yourself in the foot. It isn't insurmountable, but you need to have more than two brain cells to rub together.

mean, guys, come on. The Jedi have the power to alter minds. They are individually immensely powerful, and they follow the rules of a mysterious unelected body. OF COURSE they might need to be killed. Whether or not the clones like them or they like the clones, it has to be in the back of the mind of everyone who has ever MET a Jedi. They have SUCH incredible power to launch a coup; a small number can theoretically overpower the Chancellor's bodyguards, their high command and largest concentration is right next to the heart of the galactic government, they have their own communications infrastructure, and the masters might hold dictatorial power (no one knows, they don't talk about themselves). They are the scariest cunts around, no matter how benevolent they seem right now. If the order comes down that the Jedi have betrayed the Republic, the clones that like the Jedi aren't even going to be able to trust themselves! If I hesitate to pull the trigger, is that because I feel love towards Kenobi, or because the devious bastard is altering my mind and memories right now? And regardless, I have to act RIGHT NOW because if I don't, he might realize he's in danger and get me first.

I would argue that there is no possible reality in which the Jedi are a good thing, or superheroes, or wizards, or anything like it. That isn't being debated right now, and that kind of cynicism isn't really Star Wars in nature. But if we're talking realism, that's what's realistic. Those men are going to be afraid of a Jedi takeover the moment they meet one.

Then you have no business writing Star Wars if you think there is no possibility of Jedi being a good thing.

You are projecting your own feelings and point of view on to everyone in the Star Wars galaxy and claiming it's logical and the only way people could possibly see this. This is just flat out wrong. the Jedi are an institution. They are the guardians of the peace and justice in the Republic for a thousand years/Generation. If they were going to take over, they could have done it centuries or millenia ago. People have grown up with them in place, they're are not going to be as paranoid about them as you think they are and there's very little in canon to suggest anyone having those views.