Domes atop ISD

[Ted]

Stackpole is an idiot. Even his own beloved X-Wing games tell us that they are sensor globes in the time he writes his book. Maybe he never actually beat the darn games, just gave up after a couple of missions.

They dont call them sensor domes, they call them shield generators.
How come if you destroy them the ISD is naked?

[Master of Ossus]

If you play X-Wing the whole way through, it specifically says that after the destruction of the Devastator by Alliance fighters, the Empire embarked on a very costly campaign to move the shield generators to an internal area. This transition took place over the course of one year, starting around the time of ANH. It would have been over by RotJ, and as an elite unit the Executor would have received this upgrade first.

Note that this disagrees with canon.

[Failed Glory]

If the domes are sheild generators, then what is the bulge at the bottom of a typical ISD?

[Raptor 597]

If the domes are sheild generators, then what is the bulge at the bottom of a typical ISD?

Above that Bulge is the Ion Solarization reactor, I think I'll have to look on Essential Guides.

[Sardaukar]

The orgional ICS names them as Sensor Globes, despite what Stackpole says they are not shield generators

No it doesn't. Not saying that they aren't sensors... but the ICS doesn't label them at all.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

Wait a second, Corran Horn's avatar si the same as GATs! (Gets a "No , Sherlock" point). Anyway, taking out an ISD is not a one ship job, even in the video games, because whenever I play, I lose at least one life.

[Morte]

All you people who think they're shield generators read up:

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/towers.html#globes

Once you've read that then provide arguments as to why you think they aren't sensor domes.

[SPOOFE]

The "shield generator" fallacy comes from the EU. The EU also says two other things about shield generators:

-Shield generators can protect themselves.

-Once a shield is down, the generators themselves are burnt out, and crews must replace them.

Now, if we assume that those domes truly are shield generators, then those two stated facts must be in error (because in ROTJ, the shield generators most definitely DIDN'T protect themselves, AND it would be impossible for crews to replace a burnt-out generator if it is outside the ship).

So we have a choice... exclude two officially stated facts about the domes, or exclude only one. Since the largest body of non-contradictory evidence provides us with the most complete view of the Star Wars universe, we must choose the interpretation that requires the least exclusion of evidence. Obviously, the shield generator notion must be dismissed.

[Failed Glory]

Ok,

if they are sensor domes and Solo used their misplacement to "hide" from the ISD he was attached to, then wouldn't a typical ISD have a huge blindspot under her ventral axis?

This sea based warship theory only works in half-plane 3-D, and uses sonar for the other half plane. So an ISD would be able to scan less than 3/4 of the space around her? Maybe there are scanners on the other side, but why not domes then? Sounds like a huge Kuat Drive fuckjob to me.

I'm not saying they're sheild generators either, but there seems to be no better explanation than someone thought they looked cool and put some domes on his model.

[Lt. Nebfer]

good qustion how do the "see" what below them if the sencers are on top of the tower?

maby thy are the main long rainge ones but there are smaler ones as well
but this will still leave a blind spot at rainge

[Mr Bean]

The back of the ISD IS a blind spot and the Sensor Dooms in question are NOT the only ones mounted on the ship, The rest however are partialy internal or mounted Diffrently

Also I belive the Sensors on the Top are acutal the Hyperwave/Realy Realy Long Range sensors desgined for decting things in FTL travel

[Master of Ossus]

The domes are probably there to help with ranging targets, or with detailed scans that need not occur quickly. ISD's have a reasonable roll rate, and so it is likely that they have time to maneuver the ship to have LOS to their target in most circumstances. The domes are likely not their only sensors, but their most powerful ones.

[Failed Glory]

Good answers all, but if the domes are key sensor tools, then why mount inferior ones on the ventral side? If the domes are inferior, why mount them at all?

As for rolling and acquiring targets, why give away massive energy signatures during a roll and be potentially detected by another hostile force? Albeit, ISDs don't need stealth with many missions, but a little quiet goes a long way.

Of course, maybe the Solo detection argument is flawed because the operators were trying to detect a ship far away and not attached...silly domes.

[Master of Ossus]

What do you mean why mount inferior ones on the ventral side? The Dorsal side is the one that generally needs more accurate data for its HTL's (there are more on the dorsal side), and the domes are also positioned to scan out ahead of the Bridge. The Ventral side is protected by starfighters, which double as scouts. That part makes sense.

SW ships the size of ISD's are already very easily detected, even if they are not rolling or going anywhere. There is no way, short of a cloaking device, for an ISD to mask its presence.

[Corran Horn]

Stackpole is an idiot. Even his own beloved X-Wing games tell us that they are sensor globes in the time he writes his book. Maybe he never actually beat the darn games, just gave up after a couple of missions.

They dont call them sensor domes, they call them shield generators.
How come if you destroy them the ISD is naked?

you are exactly right.

[Mr Bean]

You are exactly wrong


Simple idiot logic here Horn


IF they are Shield Generators(Despite what everyone BUT Stackpole says) then how could you destroy them UNTIL the shields are down?

[Guest]

The back of the ISD IS a blind spot and the Sensor Dooms in question are NOT the only ones mounted on the ship, The rest however are partialy internal or mounted Diffrently

Also I belive the Sensors on the Top are acutal the Hyperwave/Realy Realy Long Range sensors desgined for decting things in FTL travel

I think Mr. Bean's explanation is pretty good. It would also make sense that the globes are utilized for communications in some way though. For example, we know from AOTC that the long distance holographic communication system has a finite range. Large communication pods may make for easier transmission for long distances. Also, in ESB when the SD is destroyed, damaged, or possible only slightly damaged (depending on point of view) in the bridge tower area the transmission fades out. If the globes are connected to the holographic communications system that could be the explanation.

[Lord Edam]

All you people who think they're shield generators read up:

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/towers.html#globes

Once you've read that then provide arguments as to why you think they aren't sensor domes.

In other words, the shield failure was probably due to a power loss which was the deliberate result of the rebel heavy ships' bombardment. In fact it might only have been only a temporary shield failure, with the generators taking some time to recharge

the first few paragraphs deal exclusively with canon, and why we cannot conclude the domes are shields from canon evidence. which is right - we can't. The quote above says it perfectly. However, the quote above also acknowledges that (as EU sources show), shields can fail temporarily - shields stop working without the generators/projectors being destroyed, so the assumption below that the domes are fully functional despite the rest of the ship being dead is wrong

there is evidence of at least one warship at the Battle of Endor which lost its bridge shields even though its globes were completely intact...Even though the shields are completely lost and the bridge regions have obviously been devastated by rebel bombardment, the globes atop the tower are serenely unharmed and presumably fully functional

There is no way, from canon source, to conclude what the domes do. There isn't even enough to say what they do not do.

On all other starships the deflector shield generators are hidden internal devices

this is incorrect. As anyone who has the Behind the Magic CD-ROM, or the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, or any other source that gives schematics for several ships can see for themsleves, many (infact, most) ships have shields generators and/or projectors on or near the surface, usually under at most one single layer of hull/armour. No other ships have the globes on top of the bridge tower, that is true. But then, no other ships use the same KDY shield systems as the xSDs.

Some other ship with similarly vulnerable shield systems (ie, projecting from the hull, protected only by the shields themselves) are Dreadnaughts (egvv, P43); Eclipse(egvv, p47); Hyperspace Marauder(egvv, P73); Lancer class frigate(egvv, P103); Mon Cal Cruisers (egvv, P117); Nebulon-b frigates (egvv, P131); Gallofrey Transports(egvv, P135); and Ssi-Ruuvi Shree-class battle ships (egvv, P140).

Computer games introduced the whole "shield globe" idea as a simplistic means of making large warships vulnerable to the player starfighters. However globe destruction was not always effectual in the games, eg. they don't alter the shielding of Victory-class destroyers

As has been repeatedly pointed out to those trying to ignore AotC:ICS, it doesn't matter where the information came from - once it is included in an officially authorised source it is to be accepted. There are many officially authorised sources which say the domes are shield domes, so we accept they are shield domes. However, Lucasfilm have stated that aspects of game mechanics are not considered part of "star wars" - the fact that destroying the globes has no affect on the shielding of Vicotry-class stardestroyers could be considered an aspect of game mechanics - they don't want you to destroy the shields on that ship that easily, so you can't. If you need to rationalise this, then victory class star destroyers (and probably most other ships) have secondary shield systems that come online when the primary shield domes are destroyed. (this did not happen in RotJ because the shields had been drained, so all shields were offline)

STAR WARS Incredible Cross Sections indicated that the antenna/globe area is concerned with targeting

Star Wars Incredible Cross Sections does not label the domes at all, other sources do. SW:ICS's silence cannot overide an explicit statement from other admissable sources.

Some novels attribute shield functions to the globes, while others call them "sensor domes."

With a lack of specific, verifiable reference this one is hard to counter, but it is possible that the reference to attacking sensor domes on the bridge (if such a reference exists) is not to attacking the shield domes, but to attacking the sensor systems between the shield generators. Also, it is probable that energy projection systems other than shields (eg, sensors) are old housed in superficially similar structures, and references to sensor domes are not to the domes on the bridge, but actual sensor domes scattered elsewhere over the surface of the ship.

To deduce the real purpose of the globes we must consider what functions of a starship actually would benefit from the high vantage of the top of the command tower

It would be even more beneficial to have these sensors located on the far port & starboard corners of the vessle. This way you have maximum coverage up, down, forwards and backwards, and at least 50% coveragage for the entire left & right views, and in most cases greater than 50%.

On Earth military/naval sensor and communications dishes are often protected within polyhedral domes which closely resemble those of star destroyers

To the best of my knowledge, there are currently no earth ships protected by energy shields projected from somewhere on the ship. By comparing the design and location of the domes with those of 20th century ships and concluding this makes them sensors Dr Saxton ignores the possibility that shield systems would be located in similar areas, or be protected by similar structures. Shield projectors are, after all, energy transmission systems. Why should they not be protected by similar structures to other energy transmission systems

Mandel's 1978 Star Destroyer Imperator Class blueprints corroborate the designation of the globes with a sensory function

However, Geof Mandel, the artist responsible for those blueprints, has stated they were not in anyway sanctioned or authorised by Lucasfilm / George Lucas. They were "just something I
whipped together in my spare time" (see http://www.trek-wars.info/mandel.txt or contact me privately)

These blueprints are the only specific, verifiable evidence given by Dr Saxton as to why the domes are sensor domes. Everything else is supposition and attempts to write off official evidence - and it is, by the artist's own admission, nothing more than a bit of fan work - no more admissable to technical Star Wars discussion than fanfic or personal opinion.

All admissable evidence indicates they are shield systems (though this may change with future ICS or other Tech references). If you are willing to ignore official sources in favour of sophistry and supposition, then please feel free to continue believing the domes are sensor domes, but for those of us prefering to stick with accepted sources they are most definitly shields.

(Pro-Wars debaters insist the domes cannot be shield domes because they perceive their location as a weakness they have to get rid of. Anti-Wars debaters insist they must be shield domes because they see it as an easy weakness to exploit. The truth is, whatever the domes do, they are as protected as any other part of the ship until the shields fail - and by that time it doesn't really matter what the domes are for)

[Ender]

the first few paragraphs deal exclusively with canon, and why we cannot conclude the domes are shields from canon evidence. which is right - we can't. The quote above says it perfectly. However, the quote above also acknowledges that (as EU sources show), shields can fail temporarily - shields stop working without the generators/projectors being destroyed, so the assumption below that the domes are fully functional despite the rest of the ship being dead is wrong

I always understood that argument as "If the shields are down the ship is dead because it is going to get fried", a position that completely ignores the presence of armor and damage control.

[Failed Glory]

What do you mean why mount inferior ones on the ventral side? The Dorsal side is the one that generally needs more accurate data for its HTL's (there are more on the dorsal side), and the domes are also positioned to scan out ahead of the Bridge. The Ventral side is protected by starfighters, which double as scouts. That part makes sense.

SW ships the size of ISD's are already very easily detected, even if they are not rolling or going anywhere. There is no way, short of a cloaking device, for an ISD to mask its presence.

Ok, but in ESB, Vader is very pissed about being detected. If it's so easy to spot them, then why was he pissed as if the Whole Fleet could be hidden from Hoths' sensors?

Whatever the communications or sensor jobs the globes do, they still leave a huge blindspot that no fighter squadron can protect until they are launched. And are you saying that Tie Fighters have sensors and communications as good as an ISD to support the ventral side?

If they are communications, then ISDs must orient themselves to known incoming transmissions, but how do they know the messages are incoming? Seems pretty wasteful to receive a message of some other sort, rotate the ship, and then receive the actual message.

What if an ISD is engaging multiple forces, losing and needs to send a distress message? Oh, we'll only transmit to where the globes can "see"?

I'm just saying the globes positioning seems ridiculous for tactical reasons, regardless of function other than sheild generators. They look cool and that's the only thing we know for sure.

[Alyeska]

FYI Stackpole never claimed them to be shield generators. In Bacta War they even said the NR fighters were destroying Sensor Domes. It was Aron Aliston who called them Shield Domes in Iron Fist, and that was only for the SSDs, not any other ship. Additionally Aliston made it clear that you have to be under the shields, or down the shields in order to destroy the shield domes. Stackpole clearly stated that a SD can roll itself once one section of shields is down so that the unshielded side is not exposed and it gives the engineers time to get the shields restablished. Theoretically a VSD can survive 3 entire torpedo volleys from a squadron of X-Wings and come out with shields up if the captain was smart enough. All that according to Stackpole.

[SPOOFE]

For the record, the alternate theory calls the globes "long-range sensor domes". Short-range sensors and weapons targeting and such are still probably handled by far more mundane systems that are less prominent.

[Akm72]

Ok, but in ESB, Vader is very pissed about being detected. If it's so easy to spot them, then why was he pissed as if the Whole Fleet could be hidden from Hoths' sensors?

The answer to that comes from a comment by General Rieekan...

RIEEKAN: (indicates radar screen) With all the meteor activity in this system, it's going to be difficult to spot approaching ships.

Ozzel appears to have followed standard procedures and come out of hyperspace in Hoth orbit with the intention of catching the rebels by surprise. Vader must have already studied the data on the Hoth system and noticed that the asteroid field offered them the option of approaching stealthily and performing a 'clean' long-range bombardment.

Whatever the communications or sensor jobs the globes do, they still leave a huge blindspot that no fighter squadron can protect until they are launched. And are you saying that Tie Fighters have sensors and communications as good as an ISD to support the ventral side?

I can't answer for MoO, but my answer would be that the domes are only one of numerous different sensor types, and that they have a specific task for which having limited arcs is not regarded as being a problem. Other sensors cover the blind arcs.

If they are communications, then ISDs must orient themselves to known incoming transmissions, but how do they know the messages are incoming? Seems pretty wasteful to receive a message of some other sort, rotate the ship, and then receive the actual message.

What if an ISD is engaging multiple forces, losing and needs to send a distress message? Oh, we'll only transmit to where the globes can "see"?

I'm just saying the globes positioning seems ridiculous for tactical reasons, regardless of function other than sheild generators. They look cool and that's the only thing we know for sure.

You are assuming that they must rotate the ship to recieve a message at all - what if they only need to rotate the ship to get the best reception or transmition? You are making a mountain out of a radish, and are assuming incompetance on the part of the designers and asking us to prove their competance. It's more sensible to assume that warship designers in the SW universe know what they're doing and to only assume incompetance if all other options are exhausted (as you should do in the real world).

[Failed Glory]

It's more sensible to assume that warship designers in the SW universe know what they're doing and to only assume incompetance if all other options are exhausted (as you should do in the real world).

HMS Hood. The battlecruiser was a nice concept, but a poor performer. And the designers knew what they were doing when they built her. However, the result can be seen as pure incompetence in hindsight. I never said the designers didn't know what they were doing, just that they MAY have made a mistake.

It looks cool. That's the only reason they are there. Plus the ships are always upside up. What is that all about? Answer: it looks cool. Maybe the Emperor had a thing with all his ships looking real cool and imposing. Just like the AT-AT always having to be upright and never crouching.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

The Takrin Doctrine states "Rule through the fear of force, rather than the force itself". Intimidating the enemy is a way to defeat the enemy, and 25 meter-tall walkers do just that.