Follow-up to the 1.2 million figure in Shatterpoint

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

I'm sorry, but I cannot comprehend how it is possible for the population of Coruscant to be in the low trillions.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/astro.html#coruscant

[Illuminatus Primus]

Hmm, interesting. However there are nitpicking problems.
1: Zahn wrote that the ideal was a 3-5 years cycle for the Spaarti clones. He also wrote that early Spaarti clones that were growth even quicker (less than one year) went totally insane. So it suggests earlier failures. Most likely these clones (growth in one tenth of the ten year) would be the "failure".

Actually, 1 year is the minimum stable growth period. Problems occurred with those grown even faster. (However, Pelleaon did remark that the Clonemasters had figured out a way to overcome this, however it was unknown; this method could have been the same later used by GA Thrawn).

Curiously, the first insane clones were confronted by the Republic Navy, which would require the Seperatists to develop insane clones for crewing their warships, presumably.

I doubt Coruscant ever recovered from the Rebels taking it; the Imperial Civil War; and the Clone Emperor's resurgence. Quite simply, the past few decades have been the equivlant of the Visigothic and Vandal sacks of Rome in succession. The Roman Empire wasn't quite dead yet either but its capable certainly was a shell. Same thing with Coruscant and the Republic/Empire in general.

The Republic capture of Coruscant was far less bloody and disruptive as the Imperial re-capture, which totally depopulated the planet and wrecked significant cityscape.

[His Divine Shadow]

2: The novelization of AotC states that there were trillions of citizens. It can mean 2-1000 trillions for the whole Republic. (More likely 2-20 trillions, otherwise it would say tens of trillions.)

It's colloquial, and absurdly low for 50 million planets, I wouldn't attach much merit to it compared to the ISB which explicitly states 100 quadrillion sapient citizens in the Empire, and the Empire was not that much bigger, it was just the repubic reformed.

[vakundok]

Hmm, interesting. However there are nitpicking problems.
1: Zahn wrote that the ideal was a 3-5 years cycle for the Spaarti clones. He also wrote that early Spaarti clones that were growth even quicker (less than one year) went totally insane. So it suggests earlier failures. Most likely these clones (growth in one tenth of the ten year) would be the "failure".

Actually, 1 year is the minimum stable growth period. Problems occurred with those grown even faster. (However, Pelleaon did remark that the Clonemasters had figured out a way to overcome this, however it was unknown; this method could have been the same later used by GA Thrawn).

True. However, if I remember well, when Karrde tried to estimate the danger of the Spaarti cylinders he counted with a longer period, and most likely he made the calculation with worst case in mind. Also, Palleaon remembered that early clones he met in the fleet tended to be insane.

I also think the clonemasters' solution was not the same as Thrawn's. (Palleaon wondered whether they found out the real problem.) While it is somewhat violant, I think they used every model only once and killed the model when the process started. (Thus eliminating the Force turbulence between the clones and the original without knowing the real problem.) But this is only my personal opinion.

[vakundok]

2: The novelization of AotC states that there were trillions of citizens. It can mean 2-1000 trillions for the whole Republic. (More likely 2-20 trillions, otherwise it would say tens of trillions.)

It's colloquial, and absurdly low for 50 million planets, I wouldn't attach much merit to it compared to the ISB which explicitly states 100 quadrillion sapient citizens in the Empire, and the Empire was not that much bigger, it was just the repubic reformed.

It is only a canon source. And the same source talks about only a hundred thousand (or hundreds of thousands, I cannot remember) worlds of the Republic.
However: 1 trillion is 10^18. 50 million is 5*10^7. 2-20 trillion/ 50 million=4-40*10^10, so 40-400 billion per planet as an average.

[His Divine Shadow]

It is only a canon source.

Colloquial.

And the same source talks about only a hundred thousand (or hundreds of thousands, I cannot remember) worlds of the Republic.

Again it's colloquial not explicit, other canon sources such as the ANH novellization also speaks of 1 million member worlds, and it's pretty clearly not meant to be taken serious as we know there where 1 million full-member worlds, and the ICS hints at the same figure as WEG, this is one of the few things WEG did right.

There is no need to create contradictions, especially not when they are as silly as to claim less than a million worlds when we know there are over 50 million and the Revived Empire in DE had 12 million inhabited worlds atleast.

However: 1 trillion is 10^18. 50 million is 5*10^7. 2-20 trillion/ 50 million=4-40*10^10, so 40-400 billion per planet as an average.

Err........................

To make it simple, 20 trillion on 50 million planets gives us an average of 400000 people per planet.

And one Trillion is 1e12, not 1e18, 100 Quadrillion is 1e17.

[FTeik]

Well, in my part of the world one billion is 1e12 and a trillion 1e18, too.

And given the conquests and reconquests during the GCW from Endor to HoT nobody can safely claim, that at the time of NJO Coruscant has the same population as at the time of TPM or AotC.

As for the problem with the clones in less than one year, i could imagine, that the clone-masters (whoever they were) used some kind of shielding (like Umak Leth´s Jedi-cage from DE).

[vakundok]

Again it's colloquial not explicit, other canon sources such as the ANH novellization also speaks of 1 million member worlds

Really? I thought I knew the ANH novelisation. Could you tell me where is it?

And one Trillion is 1e12, not 1e18, 100 Quadrillion is 1e17.

Well, my dictionary contains that one trillion (US:quintillion) is 10^18. In my lexicon, trillion is million*million*million.
Would you be so kind to check the definition of trillion to me?

[Illuminatus Primus]

They use the American definition.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I also think the clonemasters' solution was not the same as Thrawn's. (Palleaon wondered whether they found out the real problem.) While it is somewhat violant, I think they used every model only once and killed the model when the process started. (Thus eliminating the Force turbulence between the clones and the original without knowing the real problem.) But this is only my personal opinion.

The problem was in so many identical minds forming so close together in such short periods that created "pressure" through the Force that rendered the clones insane.

Your solution only works if each clone was a unique individual (wildly unlikely). Though the fact they're still maturing ultra-rapidly in close vicinity could also cause problems.

[Joe Momma]

And one Trillion is 1e12, not 1e18, 100 Quadrillion is 1e17.

Well, my dictionary contains that one trillion (US:quintillion) is 10^18. In my lexicon, trillion is million*million*million.
Would you be so kind to check the definition of trillion to me?

Uh, I think you're both right. There are different meanings for those terms depending on where you're from. For example, the US definition of billion is 10^9 (a thousand million) whereas the British and French often use billion for 10^12 (a million million).

I'm guessing the US definitions of the numbers would apply here since the works in question were written in the US (AFAIK, anyway).

-- Joe Momma

[vakundok]

They use the American definition.

Could you tell me what number the original novelisation of AotC contains?

[vakundok]

Uh, I think you're both right. There are different meanings for those terms depending on where you're from. For example, the US definition of billion is 10^9 (a thousand million) whereas the British and French often use billion for 10^12 (a million million).

I'm guessing the US definitions of the numbers would apply here since the works in question were written in the US (AFAIK, anyway).

-- Joe Momma

Well, I have only the hungarian translation. it contains the word 'trillió' which is trillion in GB and quintillion in the US. That is why I asked for the original (american) number.

[vakundok]

The problem was in so many identical minds forming so close together in such short periods that created "pressure" through the Force that rendered the clones insane.

I do not have many sources, but if I remember well, the Thrawn triology says that the pressure occurs between the clones and the original, not between the clones themselves.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I don't believe so, but I'll check.

That's simply retarded though, because it'd be extremely easy to simply execute the original, and what would be the instrinsic difference between the clones and original?

[vakundok]

I don't believe so, but I'll check.

Thanks in advance.

That's simply retarded though, because it'd be extremely easy to simply execute the original, and what would be the instrinsic difference between the clones and original?

Yes, it would be extremely easy to use the solution. But far less easier to find out that it would be a solution.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Ok, some further stuff.

According to Curtis Saxton, Coruscant has 1.39 times the diameter of Earth, which produces a usable surface yield of 889 million square meters.

Again multiplying by the conservative Manhattan estimate, it produces about twice Earth's estimate. So a low-end figure for Coruscant is 14 trillion inhabitants...

Thanks for the math. I still don't see a quadrillion as the number, but I'm now prepared to range from 50-100 trillion in my personal opinion.

Has anyone ever asked George Lucas?

[Publius]

Publius:
The topic is about that the 1,200,000 clones figure for the army of the Republic is so low. In my opinion, if the Republic turns to be the Empire 3 years after AotC, the Republic will never get even those 1,200,000 clones from Kamino.

You appear to be slightly confused. The Grand Army of the Republic, as mobilised in Attack of the Clones, consists of 200,000 readily deployable clone troopers, with "a million more well on the way", according to Prime Minister Lama Su.

As such, the Galactic Republic has already received not less than 200,000 of the 1.2 million clone troopers ordered by "Master Sifo-Dyas" on behalf of the Jedi High Council.

Of course, the Spaarti cylinders can solve this numerical problem, and produce a far larger army for the Republic (in this case, there is no reason to keep the 1.2 million figure at all). (And, in my opinion, the Republic army, suffering from the 'clone madness' could provide a very cool situation.) However, currently it is up to Lucas, whether he will use this or not.

Indeed they can. The advanced cloning cylinders which the Galactic Republic intends to manufacture at Spaarti Creations allegedly require one-tenth of the time required by the cloning procedures used on Kamino. Commander Roshton specifically stated that the Republic intends to manufacture "a few million" of the new cylinders, which would drastically increase the size of the GAR.

Note well that Spaarti cloning cylinders are not Spaarti technology. They are technology provided by the Galactic Republic and manufactured in bulk by Spaarti Creations on Cartao. Thus, early speculation that Spaarti may simply be a brand name (supported by the drastic differences between the Emperor's Spaarti Clone Vats and Grand Admiral Thrawn's Spaarti clone cylinders) are indeed correct.

Side note about the population of the Republic:
1: The Republic was based on tolerancy. So, I think everyone was a citizen.

All sapient inhabitants of the Galactic Empire are considered citizens, according to the Imperial Sourcebook, Second Edition. If the Galactic Republic operated under the same principle, then the difference in population ought not be substantively different.

In fact, it is somewhat unlikely that all sapient beings are considered Republican citizens, as that would somewhat undermine the confederate structure of the Republic. Consider: To be a Republican citizen would confer certain rights, privileges, and duties on an individual which may not be duplicated at the membership level.

For example, one does not acquire the franchise in the Kingdom of the Naboo until one has passed an aptitude test determining intellectual maturity ("Star Wars Galaxies Update: Gungan Din" in Star Wars Insider issue 69). Republican citizenship would have the effect of conferring certain rights, privileges, and duties on individuals who have failed to pass the aptitude test, leaving such an individual in an curious position.

Again it's colloquial not explicit, other canon sources such as the ANH novellization also speaks of 1 million member worlds

Really? I thought I knew the ANH novelisation. Could you tell me where is it?

When the Princess Leia is brought before the Grand Moff Tarkin in the Death Star's overbridge in Chapter VII, he boasts to her that "[t]his station is the final link in the new-forged Imperial chain which will bind the million systems of the galactic Empire together once and for all".

Publius

[vakundok]

Publius:
The topic is about that the 1,200,000 clones figure for the army of the Republic is so low. In my opinion, if the Republic turns to be the Empire 3 years after AotC, the Republic will never get even those 1,200,000 clones from Kamino.

You appear to be slightly confused. The Grand Army of the Republic, as mobilised in Attack of the Clones, consists of 200,000 readily deployable clone troopers, with "a million more well on the way", according to Prime Minister Lama Su.

As such, the Galactic Republic has already received not less than 200,000 of the 1.2 million clone troopers ordered by "Master Sifo-Dyas" on behalf of the Jedi High Council.

In this question, I am not.

Page 259 of Shatterpoint (hardcover):

"...(A)nd I remember that the Grand Army of the Republic numbers 1.2 million clone troopers -- just enough to station a single trooper -- one lone man -- on each planet of the Republic, and have a handful of thousands left over.
"If this Clone War escalates the way Depa thinks it will, it will be fought not by clones and Jedi and battle droids, but by ordinary people."

I answered to this 1.2 million figure.

And we saw that some of them were at the very beginning of the production and some of them were halfway. (They will be only on the 16 years old level in ep3.) If these are true, it means that the number 1,200,000 would be reached nearly ten years after AotC, 7 years after ep 3! If we count a linear clone output, there will be only 500,000 clones (minus losses) at the time of ep3!

Of course it ment only the kaminoian clones.

Side note about the population of the Republic:
1: The Republic was based on tolerancy. So, I think everyone was a citizen.

All sapient inhabitants of the Galactic Empire are considered citizens, according to the Imperial Sourcebook, Second Edition. If the Galactic Republic operated under the same principle, then the difference in population ought not be substantively different.

Sorry, I was not fully correct. I wrote that only to suggest that the figure in point two referred to the population, not population minus slaves or population minus one or another race.

When the Princess Leia is brought before the Grand Moff Tarkin in the Death Star's overbridge in Chapter VII, he boasts to her that "[t]his station is the final link in the new-forged Imperial chain which will bind the million systems of the galactic Empire together once and for all".

Thanks, I really need to re-read it.

[His Divine Shadow]

Really? I thought I knew the ANH novelisation. Could you tell me where is it?

========================
Pg. 116: "This station is the final link in the new-forged Imperial chain which will bind the million systems of the Galactic Empire together once and for all."
========================
-Star Wars IV: A New Hope Novellization

And ofcourse this one:
========================
One Million Member Worlds and 50 million Colonies, Protectorates and Governorships
========================
-Star Wars The Roleplaying Sourcebook

Well, my dictionary contains that one trillion (US:quintillion) is 10^18. In my lexicon, trillion is million*million*million.
Would you be so kind to check the definition of trillion to me?

We're using the american definition here I believe, since LFL is american and it's been consistant in it too, if not, then the WEG number speaks of around 1e28 sapient citizens in the Empire.

[vakundok]

Really? I thought I knew the ANH novelisation. Could you tell me where is it?

========================
Pg. 116: "This station is the final link in the new-forged Imperial chain which will bind the million systems of the Galactic Empire together once and for all."
========================
-Star Wars IV: A New Hope Novellization

While Publius already pointed this out, thank you too.

We're using the american definition here I believe, since LFL is american and it's been consistant in it too, if not, then the WEG number speaks of around 1e28 sapient citizens in the Empire.

It is clear now that it is not really about the definition of the trillion. It is about whether the hungarian edition has been translated correctly or not.

Well, I have only the hungarian translation. It contains the word 'trillió' which is trillion in GB and quintillion in the US. That is why I asked for the original (american) number.

Side note:
Well, I higly doubt that WEG figure. It would require 1e18 (1,000,000,000,000,000,000) planets to achive the average population of 1e10 (half again the population of Earth). But this is only a personal opinion.

[His Divine Shadow]

100 american quadrillion, 10^17 total, spread evenly over 50 million planets gives us an average of 2 billion per planet, thats not alot, planets in SW can hold trillions, and easily dozens or hundreds of billions, and we likely got the full-member worlds and coreworlds that probably are chock-full with hundreds of billions of people per planet or more(a shithole on the mid-outer rim like Nar Shaddaa has 75-95 billion inhabitants), leaving alot of sparsely populated planets in the mid and outer rims, easily fitting in with what we see in SW.

Given that the Old Republic controlled several billion worlds soley for resource extraction, I find the WEG figure to be modest, but apt.

[vakundok]

EDIT: Deleted, because it was stupid.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Are you an idiot? 10^17 throughout the whole galaxy, not per system.

[Durandal]

Ok, some further stuff.

According to Curtis Saxton, Coruscant has 1.39 times the diameter of Earth, which produces a usable surface yield of 889 million square meters.

Again multiplying by the conservative Manhattan estimate, it produces about twice Earth's estimate. So a low-end figure for Coruscant is 14 trillion inhabitants...

Thanks for the math. I still don't see a quadrillion as the number, but I'm now prepared to range from 50-100 trillion in my personal opinion.

Has anyone ever asked George Lucas?

You also have to remember that Coruscant is multi-level. There are places on that planet that haven't seen the sunlight for thousands of years, and the planet has had many new surfaces built over the old ones over the course of millennia, and it's constantly under construction (hm ... Coruscant ... Chicago?). Hundreds of trillions seems very reasonable, to me.