Black Fleet Numbers

[Spanky The Dolphin]

The gravity well projectors could have been elimated from the E2 due to cost or time reasons.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Eclipse II is a strange ship. Unlike the Eclipse, it is not irregular and knobby.

The original Eclipse looks shabby because its construction was screwed up by the fall of the Empire post Yavin. The Eclipse II was built under better conditions.

Yes, but the design characteristics of the bow spine are quite different, and there's no visible grav-well generator domes on the vessel, and most of all, the Eclipse has multiple terraced engine banks of Executor or smaller engine cylinders, where as the Eclipse II has one parallel massive bank of larger engines bells.

One wonders if the Eclipse II is a subclass or something.

[Connor MacLeod]

around 40 isds and 3 ssds.

pretty sad that the republic was scared.

It wasn't so much the Republic was scared as a whole, so much as Drayson and Ackbar were concerned about that much firepower being loose (that many ships is enough to overwhelm most any planet, including Coruscant.)

[Connor MacLeod]

According to some sources (believe it or not) the experimental Dreadnought was an ISD with a new antimatter-reactor.

In one of the last battles between IR and NR the forces of the NR concentrated their fire on that ship causing it to explode and take six other ISDs in close proximity with it.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

I don't ever recall hearing this.

[Connor MacLeod]

By the Way "Crackens thread dossier" suggests that the Black Sword command (those returned to the Core) comprised at least sixty ships, none smaller then a Interdictor cruiser and at least one Executor-class. Although it also infers the total fleet strength may have been as high as 2 full sector groups (Arranged as some 10 superiority fleets). That roughly translates into 4,000-5,000 ships of all classes, total.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

By the Way "Crackens thread dossier" suggests that the Black Sword command (those returned to the Core) comprised at least sixty ships, none smaller then a Interdictor cruiser and at least one Executor-class. Although it also infers the total fleet strength may have been as high as 2 full sector groups (Arranged as some 10 superiority fleets). That roughly translates into 4,000-5,000 ships of all classes, total.

So where did the 46 (or whatever) ship figures come from?

[Connor MacLeod]

By the Way "Crackens thread dossier" suggests that the Black Sword command (those returned to the Core) comprised at least sixty ships, none smaller then a Interdictor cruiser and at least one Executor-class. Although it also infers the total fleet strength may have been as high as 2 full sector groups (Arranged as some 10 superiority fleets). That roughly translates into 4,000-5,000 ships of all classes, total.

So where did the 46 (or whatever) ship figures come from?

Addar Nylykerka (or however his name is spelled) figured there were 44 ships unaccounted for from the Black Sword Command's withdrawal, IIRC from Before t he Storm (Ackbar and Drayson are jogging and discussing it.) The NR had acquired a 10 year old or so Imperial Order of Battle (a listing of each and every ship in their fleet and accompanying data.) that they correlated with their existing data on Imperial ships, and then discovered the discrepancy.

[FTeik]

Can you give us the quote from CTD, Connor?

[FTeik]

Or it simply could've been somesort of armored supply ship (like the Taskforce Cruiser) hauling huge quantities of antimatter while being escorted by the SDs. Such a vessel could've been serving at the Yevethan shipyards but not neccessarily warrenting listing as part of the Black Sword Command, esp. when the vessel might not be a combat vessel. And the BSC's revolt simply snatched her up with the other Imperial ships.

I don't see the necessity for it to be the EX-F and/or an ISD.

EDIT: The ship was a Dreadnought, and and an "experimental weapons test bed" according to Essential Chronology. EG also says that the vessel was known as the "EX-F" when it defected to Pelleaon. The "Glory of Yevetha" name is likely a continuity error. The only other ships that defected were "two of the most advanced Star Destroyers." Likely ISDs, and the advanced part doesn't make it likely it was carrying a primitive power source.

I say it was a Imperial military tanker hauling loads of antimatter escorted by ISDs and the "Glory of Yevetha" name is a continuity error.

The only problem with that is, that this was already near the end of a climatic battle, where the imperials were winning until the ship went boom.

Your suggestion raises the question, what such a tanker would do in the middle of a battlefield, at the end of a battle and if it wasn´t, why it was guarded by six ISDs, that would have been needed elsewhere.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Simple. An Imperial trap (hardly a novel idea) at an Imperial supply base nearly defeated Ackbar, but an antimatter tanker at the base was located close to one of the Imperials' superiority fleets, and its timely destruction would've punched a hole through the Imperial forces, and perhaps given Ackbar the edge to rout the Imperials.

[Illuminatus Primus]

According to some sources (believe it or not) the experimental Dreadnought was an ISD with a new antimatter-reactor.

In one of the last battles between IR and NR the forces of the NR concentrated their fire on that ship causing it to explode and take six other ISDs in close proximity with it.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

I don't ever recall hearing this.

'

New Essential Guide to Characters. Ackbar's profile.

[FTeik]

Simple. An Imperial trap (hardly a novel idea) at an Imperial supply base nearly defeated Ackbar, but an antimatter tanker at the base was located close to one of the Imperials' superiority fleets, and its timely destruction would've punched a hole through the Imperial forces, and perhaps given Ackbar the edge to rout the Imperials.

That only works if Anx Minor was an imperial system with a supply-base.

And if so, why were only the ISDs destroyed (and not the base, too) and why were the ships close to the base itself (shouldn´t there be Golan-Defense-Stations?

[Connor MacLeod]

"At last report, the missing ships of the Imperial Black Sword Fleet jumped into hyperspace toward the Deep Core, immediately before the Battle of N'zoth. This means that approximately 60 ships, none smaller than a Interidcotr heavy cruiser, including several Victorys, Imperials, and at least one Super Star Destroyer, have entered the Imperial Core Navy. This represents a significant shift of power. The Imperial Core now holds the back bone of an additional two Sector Groups, made up of primarily superiority forces - something on the order of 10 superiority fleets."

Cracken's Threat Dossier, page 88

A superiority fleet consists of 6 ISDs and 390 some other combat starships on average. A sector group comprises 24 ISDs and 1,600 ships, although the ISB suggests this is a lower limit.

Note that despite the fact it says 60 ships, it suggests the majority are ISDs. And it is those sixty ships that form the "Backbone" of the two "additional" Sector Groups (suggesting the Imperial Core had at least that many, if not more, already.)

The tone of the report also suggests that Core Imperial fleet sizes may in fact be comparable in size to the New Republic's prior to the defection of the Black Sword Command. I don't recall the exact quotes from this timeframe, but that figure could easily be in the tens of thousands or even a couple hundreds of thousands (not much more, since a few thousand would not represent such a significant shift in power otherwise.)

[FTeik]

Thank you for the quote, Connor.

Imperial Core Navy would mean Daala, since Pellaeon left the core short after Darksaber.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Simple. An Imperial trap (hardly a novel idea) at an Imperial supply base nearly defeated Ackbar, but an antimatter tanker at the base was located close to one of the Imperials' superiority fleets, and its timely destruction would've punched a hole through the Imperial forces, and perhaps given Ackbar the edge to rout the Imperials.

That only works if Anx Minor was an imperial system with a supply-base.

And if so, why were only the ISDs destroyed (and not the base, too) and why were the ships close to the base itself (shouldn´t there be Golan-Defense-Stations?

Don't nitpick. You painted it out as an impossible senario. I showed it was not.

Simply put that the supply vessel was on the fringes of the space surrounding the base and just happened to be near one Imperial superiority fleet's worth of ISDs. Perhaps other vessels were destroyed but not named?

I'm saying that there could've been an ambush with multiple superiority fleets. One of those groups' attack runs brought it in the vacinity of a waiting antimatter tanker. Ackbar quickly destroyed it, killing a large percentage of the Imperial forces and confusing them, giving him the edge to turn it into a rout.

[Connor MacLeod]

the EX-F was an experimental weapons and propulsion testbed, if I remember Black Fleet Crisis properly, on a dreadnaught platform (whether "dreadnaught" implies only the 600-meter cruiser, or one of the multi-mile "dreadnaughts", I am not sure.) Ackbar destroyed the EX-F/Glory of Yevetha by targeting the engines, which triggered an antimatter explosion. It seems probable that the EX-F maybe was testing some kind of antimatter engine (and possibly some sort of antimatter weapon, or a weapon that was also based on antimatter power somehow.) This is not neccesarily unusual, since hypermatter seems to be an ultra-dense sort of annihilation matter.

To say that it was a tanker is an unsubstantiated claim, particularily since it was explicitly stated to be mounted on a "dreadnaught" hull.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The "dreadnought hull" claim is something I see as invalid, as according the NEGTC, the identity of the Glory's class or type is not listed, and according to the EC, the vessels was indeed rechristened the EX-F when it defected.

Therefore, the Glory of the Yevetha is not the EX-F.

I believe the Glory of the Yevetha name is a continuity error, as EC established that named defecting Black Sword vessels had rechristened themselves under their original Imperial names.

[Connor MacLeod]

Its a dreadnaught until you prove otherwise. Concession accepted.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

The Star War Encyclopedia claims the EX-F was the Glory of Yevetha, as well.

The EC refers to it as an SSD, rechristened the Glory of Yevetha.

Is it possible the EX-F was a experimental weapons and propulsion testbed mounted onto an SSD which later became the Glory of Yevetha? That would make both interpetations fit.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Its a dreadnaught until you prove otherwise. Concession accepted.

The EX-F is a Dreadnought. The Dreadnought that defected to Pelleaon is the EX-F, not the Glory of the Yevetha. Therefore, the antimatter ship at the battle known as the Glory of the Yevetha is not the Dreadnought EX-F.

Is it stated in Black Fleet Crisis that the Glory of the Yevetha is one and the same as the EX-F?

[Connor MacLeod]

The EC refers to it as an SSD, rechristened the Glory of Yevetha.

Is it possible the EX-F was a experimental weapons and propulsion testbed mounted onto an SSD which later became the Glory of Yevetha? That would make both interpetations fit.

Possible, but which page are you referring to? I can't find any reference to this in my own copy. Are you sure you're not confusing it with the renamed "Pride of Yevetha?" (the Intimidator?)

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Possible, but which page are you referring to? I can't find any reference to this in my own copy. Are you sure you're not confusing it with the renamed "Pride of Yevetha?" (the Intimidator?)

Whoops, I am. Disregard that last post everyone.

[Connor MacLeod]

Its a dreadnaught until you prove otherwise. Concession accepted.

The EX-F is a Dreadnought. The Dreadnought that defected to Pelleaon is the EX-F, not the Glory of the Yevetha. Therefore, the antimatter ship at the battle known as the Glory of the Yevetha is not a Dreadnought.

Is it stated in Black Fleet Crisis that the Glory of the Yevetha is one and the same as the EX-F?

Yes, DGG's reference to the SWE is correct: the Glory of Yevetha entry refers to it as the EX-F. the EX-F was also identified as Glory of Yevetha in Before the Storm, page 266 (paperback).

[Illuminatus Primus]

? I suppose the Essential Chronology is the continuity error then, unless we are to believe they rechristened it the name their enslavers gave it.

[Connor MacLeod]