A return to the origins of the Jedi ...

[Colonel Olrik]

has a bartender?!

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Hey! I'm not the only portuguese anymore!!

Welcome to the board!!

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[Kelly Antilles]

Ok, this may take a while. (and if it looks a complete mess, I blame the message box.)

First off, notice that I can't imagine anyone leaving Yoda alive. He's a Jedi Master, but not just any Jedi Master, he's openly recognized as the wisest and most powerful of the Jedi. Yoda's lived several centuries, I can't imagine he'd be easy to take down. He's had practice staying alive.

"When 800 years old you reach, look as good, you will not." -Yoda

However, since we know nothing about his race, we do not know if they are long lived. But, true, he has had much practice as staying alive.

Secondly, I think it's shown in Episode II that Yoda is responsible for training children as they come into the Order. Everyone is trained by Yoda, Yoda practically is the Jedi Order.

How do you know that? All the Jedi Masters teach classes. It doesn't necessarily mean that Yoda teaches EVERY youngling. There are thousands of Jedi. There is no way one Master could teach every child. That would mean large classes and lack of student/teacher interaction. (gee, this sounds much like our school systems)

Granted, Yoda is probably the eldest on the Council, but does that truly mean he IS the Jedi Order?

Okay, now why leave Yoda, possibly the biggest threat to the Emperor? Well, that's really going to be shown in Episode III. If I were to guess, you'd notice that Yoda really isn't a threat by Empire Strikes Back. In fact, it's my guess is that Yoda is tired of fighting.

Yes, Yoda is not only tired of fighting, but he's over 800 years old. He knows he is going to die soon. He knows what is going to happen. He is a Jedi Master after all.

Do we see Yoda working to rebuild the Order or fight the Empire? No, he's hanging out in a swamp. Look at it from his shoes, every Jedi, when brought to the Order, was taught by him personally. And they're all dead. His entire family, his life work, has been utterly destroyed. And he saw it coming. That's a terrible burden to carry on. He's old, alone, and I think his death represents the death of the Old School of Jedi.

See above rebuttles.

His being alive allows Luke to complete his training, although you'd notice that under Yoda's training Luke fails the final test of the Jedi. He never comes back to that, Luke finishes his training on his own. He never gets the indoctrination, and I think his costume illustrates that. he doesn't dress like a Jedi, which is important once you realize that EVERY Jedi dresses the same. I think it's a statement about how Luke really isn't a Jedi in the Yoda's school of the word.

Ah, but Yoda couldn't finish his training because he DIED. True, the Jedi of old was an "indoctrination", which we now know from Episodes 1 and 2. The Jedi Order was very organized (as the word "Order" brings to mind) and probably very strict.

Luke is the beginning of a NEW Order. Yet, Yoda does declare Luke a Jedi in RotJ. He knows Luke is meant to restore the Jedi to their previous glory.

I'm probably reaching now. But anyway, as far as I'm concerned Yoda's training of Luke was probably equivalent to the training a child gets apon arriving in the Order. No midi-chlorians, no here's how we dress, here's the CODE, none of that. Feel the Force, jump high, move some rocks, and see the future. That's it. And it's that simpler understanding of the Force that I think is more instanding with this foretold Balance.

Ok, first off, when the original Trilogy was born, "midichlorians" wasn't even in George's vocabulary. Who knows where he came up with that.

Secondly, Yoda knew he was teaching Luke to go face a Dark Lord of the Sith. Granted, he is a peaceful Jedi, but as we know from Episode 2, when he's pushed to it, he will fight. Even Obi-wan's initial training for Luke was opening his senses and fighting. They were training him to be a warrior. The balance that Yoda and Obi-wan sense at this time is that Vader must be destroyed to return the Light side to power.

(yes, this is from earlier, but I have another point to make)

The Emperor exterminated the Jedi, which actually aided Luke, because it cleaned the slate for future Force-users. There was no more Jedi, and technically I would argue that Luke was not a Jedi. Basically I felt that Luke was setting up the whole situation that he had helped get the Universe out of in the movies.

If the Emperor "EXTERMINATED" the Jedi, we also have to wonder why Obi-wan was left alive as well.

When the "Great Purge" occoured and the Jedi realized their numbers were low, they spread to the furthest reaches of the Galaxy, as far from the Core as they could get, and went into hiding. Yoda chose Degobah because a Dark Jedi had died there and his essence masked Yoda's presence. Obi chose Tatooine in order to keep an eye on Luke. He had to make sure the son of Skywalker lived to defeat Vader and return balance to the Force. We cannot be sure that there wasn't a Jedi watching Leia. I would think there would be, since she would be in the same danger as Luke.

So truly you cannot say that the Emperor "exterminated" the Jedi. We know of two who did survive. Who says there are not more?

[Mr Bean]

So truly you cannot say that the Emperor "exterminated" the Jedi. We know of two who did survive. Who says there are not more?

Exterminate does not mean 100%,
50% is good enough for the definition of Exterminate(Because Exterminate refers to a certian area)

We here that a great many and sons and daughters as well of KNOW Jedi were killed by Vadar with *A Dark Jedi or two helping

Sure they could be a few FORCE SENSATIVE kids out there but JEDI remeber is a RANK

[Darth Phoenix]

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Hey! I'm not the only portuguese anymore!!

Welcome to the board!!

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Good to know that i'm not the only one here

[Kelly Antilles]

So truly you cannot say that the Emperor "exterminated" the Jedi. We know of two who did survive. Who says there are not more?

Exterminate does not mean 100%,
50% is good enough for the definition of Exterminate(Because Exterminate refers to a certian area)

Point taken.

We here that a great many and sons and daughters as well of KNOW Jedi were killed by Vadar with *A Dark Jedi or two helping

Sure they could be a few FORCE SENSATIVE kids out there but JEDI remeber is a RANK

True.

But, why wouldn't Palpatine not purge anyone who is Force Sensitive since he wants to rule all? I mean, wouldn't he be worried that anyone that could possibly use the Force may try and usurp him?

[Mr Bean]

But, why wouldn't Palpatine not purge anyone who is Force Sensitive since he wants to rule all? I mean, wouldn't he be worried that anyone that could possibly use the Force may try and usurp him?

Since its hard to tell, You have X number of people in the Galaxy X is rather large, you've already killed all those who are direct members or family of Jedi,
Ok what about the Random Jedi's? IE Anakin or any of those mentioned in EU... Unless you start screening every single kid every born its just not going to work, and even if you do not all births are reported, your going to miss a few

The fact is he destroyed the Jedi and nearly all of the records that would help anyone make MORE Jedi's to oppose him or whatnot

[AL]

So truly you cannot say that the Emperor "exterminated" the Jedi. We know of two who did survive. Who says there are not more?

Exterminate does not mean 100%,
50% is good enough for the definition of Exterminate(Because Exterminate refers to a certian area)

Point taken.

We here that a great many and sons and daughters as well of KNOW Jedi were killed by Vadar with *A Dark Jedi or two helping

Sure they could be a few FORCE SENSATIVE kids out there but JEDI remeber is a RANK

True.

But, why wouldn't Palpatine not purge anyone who is Force Sensitive since he wants to rule all? I mean, wouldn't he be worried that anyone that could possibly use the Force may try and usurp him?

even if there are force sensative people running around, whos going to train them? Not Ben, Not Yoda, Not Vader, Not the Emperor so they pose no threat because they dont have any skills to challenge the emperor with.

[Crom]

How do you know that? All the Jedi Masters teach classes. It doesn't necessarily mean that Yoda teaches EVERY youngling. There are thousands of Jedi. There is no way one Master could teach every child. That would mean large classes and lack of student/teacher interaction. (gee, this sounds much like our school systems)

Granted, Yoda is probably the eldest on the Council, but does that truly mean he IS the Jedi Order?

There are thousands of Jedi? I've always been under the impression that there were not nearly as many. I believe by Attack they are at an all time low when it comes to numbers. The numbers of Jedi on Coruscant can't be more than a few hundred, and Coruscant is where the majority of them would be concentrated. I get those numbers from the Jedi strike group from AotC, mostly because I thought that Mace Windu gathered every available knight for that attack. If you can support the figure of thousands of Jedi, I'll back down on my numbers though.

Anyway, back to Yoda. We see Yoda teaching the Bear Clan in AotC. I was under the impression that the Order was lucky to get a few dozen children each year, given that I've always believed Force sensitivity to be rare and the Jedi demand that the recruits be extremely young. Under those restrictions it would be easy for Yoda to easily teach all of the children. My impression was that Yoda would teach the basics and then the children would be given to a knight to be a Padawan. These basics are what I believe were taught to Luke.

If not, look at how long Yoda has been teaching! Several hundred years at least! Given that, most of the Jedi who are alive during PM were probably influenced one way or another by Yoda.

As for Yoda being the Jedi Order, well, I mean that in two ways. First off, Yoda is the ideal Jedi Master. Secondly, Yoda's philosophy seems to dominate the Jedi. The whole Jedi Code, in fact, seems to be part of Yoda's interpretation of the Force. I say that his philosophy dominates because the only faction of Jedi we see with an opposing philosophy, primarily Qui-Gon, is the minority. Qui-Gon promoted a more personal relationship with the Force, working with your feelings, while Yoda's philosophy, and the Code, seems to be about repression.

Yes, Yoda is not only tired of fighting, but he's over 800 years old. He knows he is going to die soon. He knows what is going to happen. He is a Jedi Master after all.

A Jedi Master till the end. If someone did to me what the Empire did to Yoda I'd be pissed off. I respect that he held to his principles. But that's off topic.

Ah, but Yoda couldn't finish his training because he DIED. True, the Jedi of old was an "indoctrination", which we now know from Episodes 1 and 2. The Jedi Order was very organized (as the word "Order" brings to mind) and probably very strict.

Luke is the beginning of a NEW Order. Yet, Yoda does declare Luke a Jedi in RotJ. He knows Luke is meant to restore the Jedi to their previous glory.

How does the quote from Zahn go? "Not the last of the old, but the first of the new?"

Luke represents the Balance the Force was prophesized. Yoda calls him a Jedi, but he's a whole new breed of Jedi if anything. He's never even heard of the Jedi Code. If anything, according to the old standards, Luke is a horrible Jedi. That being said, if he is a Jedi, he's not the Jedi who will restore the Jedi to their previous glory.

He's the Jedi who is supposed to lead them into their new evolution. He isn't supposed to create an Order, his kind of Jedi should have been Jedi free of the Order. Basically the Force would have been freed from organized religion. The relationship with the Force would be more personal, and simplistic. Less like Yoda's version of the Force and more like Qui-Gon's.

Ok, first off, when the original Trilogy was born, "midichlorians" wasn't even in George's vocabulary. Who knows where he came up with that.

Hey, just because "midichlorians" were revealed in the prequels doesn't mean they don't exist. The whole movies are canon argument, I suppose. I just always assumed that the midichlorians are an effect of the Force and not the cause. Which is why I have such problems with the EU...

Secondly, Yoda knew he was teaching Luke to go face a Dark Lord of the Sith. Granted, he is a peaceful Jedi, but as we know from Episode 2, when he's pushed to it, he will fight. Even Obi-wan's initial training for Luke was opening his senses and fighting. They were training him to be a warrior. The balance that Yoda and Obi-wan sense at this time is that Vader must be destroyed to return the Light side to power.

See that's just it, everyone in the movies were pushing for black and white. Kill Vader, and bring back the Light! Kill Vader and join the Dark! What did Luke do? He picked mystery option number 3. In that Ben and Yoda were wrong, they were training him to be a warrior, but what they ended up doing was freeing Luke up from all the bullshit that came with being part of the Jedi Temple. That being done he was able to see a way out of the problem and redeem Vader along the way.

If the Emperor "EXTERMINATED" the Jedi, we also have to wonder why Obi-wan was left alive as well.

When the "Great Purge" occoured and the Jedi realized their numbers were low, they spread to the furthest reaches of the Galaxy, as far from the Core as they could get, and went into hiding. Yoda chose Degobah because a Dark Jedi had died there and his essence masked Yoda's presence. Obi chose Tatooine in order to keep an eye on Luke. He had to make sure the son of Skywalker lived to defeat Vader and return balance to the Force. We cannot be sure that there wasn't a Jedi watching Leia. I would think there would be, since she would be in the same danger as Luke.

So truly you cannot say that the Emperor "exterminated" the Jedi. We know of two who did survive. Who says there are not more?

I'm waiting for Episode III for the specifics on the purges of the Jedi. That being said I think there are already some good arguments on the purging of the Jedi issue.

Thanks for your input,
Crom