Capital ship warfare

[Connor MacLeod]

Conventional triangulation is used with (apparently) EO sensors - the ISD Chimaera had a room dedicated to that at the time of the Hand of Thrawn series. Apparently there's problems with it - perhaps the EO sensors are blinded by lasers?

BTW, EO sensors? And which part was this (which book, page number if possible, etc.) I'd like to check it out

[Connor MacLeod]

Anyway thats why the avarage SW battle is at such close Range, due to the simple fact that, SW ships can throw a HECKAVE alot of jamming out there.

Unfortunately there's a gaping hole in that argument: SW ECM doesn't have an appriciable effect on the visual spectrum. Even if every non-visible band was rendered unusable by ECM, finding, tracking, and targetting SW ships would be dead easy for passive electro-optical sensors. The first person to bolt a CCD onto a telescope and connect the whole thing to a targetting computer would have a field day picking off Wars ships at extreme range.

Not neccesarily so.


SW: ANH Novelization, page 194

"Maintain visual scanning," Blue Leader directed. "With all this energy flying, they'll be on top of you before your scope can pick them up. Remember, they can jam everyinstrument on your ship except your eyes."

They DO use visual sensors and visual magnification technology, but apparently the only unjammable sensor is the Mk1 Eyeball. Its probable that visual sensors are much more harder to jam than other sensors, though, but they still can do it.

And to back this up:

Rebel Alliance SourceBook

Page 75:

Visual Scanners:

"If a fighter's electornic sensors are jammed, the pilot must rely on visual scanners. This is a short-range sensor resembling a video camera with a telescopic lense, giving the pilot visual contact with the enemy craft long before it can be seen by the naked eye. These sensors are almost impossible to jam, though cloaking devices are effective against them."

And on same page

Visual contact:

"The last, and most reliable, means of identification is actual visual contact. Despite their sophisticated array of long-range detection devices, Rebel Pilots depend othe most on their own eyes. Eyes cannot easily be jammed, altered, or otherwise interfered with."

Note that while difficult to do so, visual scanners MUST be jammable/distortable/or in some way be interfered with by some form of CM, otherwise the "visual contact" part would neither be needed nor so reliable.

[Doomriser]

The WEG [Sigh...] Rebel Sourcebook explains, with diagrams, typical SW fleet movements and deployments.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rcrierie/ ... RebCh4.htm

[Doomriser]

Indeed, after emailing a few Lucus people about how SW jamming works and why we often see battles as such close range, then taking a quick drive an talking with one of my Navy EW buddies(EW's are the guys in the backseat who running the jamming equipment on fighters) to get a more in depth technical prospective of jamming in general then a email or two more I was able to devople a picture of how SW jamming works(Note the Figures are pure scalling, there is little EU mentioning or Movie mentioning of Jamming besides ANH Trench run)

Anyway thats why the avarage SW battle is at such close Range, due to the simple fact that, SW ships can throw a HECKAVE alot of jamming out there.

The Sphere is directional what prevents them from simply shooting at the center and also why Vic SD carry so many concussion Missle Launchers

Could you post those comments, please? They might be useful.

[Master of Ossus]

Starfighters use visual scanning when their other scanners are heavily jammed, but Star Wars capital ships MUST have FTL sensors. Think about it: the Alliance on Hoth had knowledge of the Imperial Fleet moving out of hyperspace even before VADER did.

[Mr Bean]

Could you post those comments, please? They might be useful

I'd have to ask permision of those who I talked with first before doing anything like that

Starfighters use visual scanning when their other scanners are heavily jammed, but Star Wars capital ships MUST have FTL sensors. Think about it: the Alliance on Hoth had knowledge of the Imperial Fleet moving out of hyperspace even before VADER did.

Umm Ossus you know how Jamming Works Right

Jamming, Sending TONS o Signals aka white noise over a large area to prevent any kinds of sensors from detecting where exactly you are

HOWEVER on the flip side every single person knows your there

Comparsion, Sneaking up to a bulding, VS use a 50,000 WATT Light to blind anyone in the build, They don't know where you are but they do know your coming

[omegaLancer]

A very good example of jamming and ECM technology is the conflict in the middle east. During dessert storm, stealth fighter and convential figther ran all over the iraqi air defenses.. The Iraqi using Soviet SAM and air defensive technology was no match for US hawkeyes..

It finally came down to mass flack and anti aircraft guns...

[Knife]

Another option would still use passive sensors in a way not all that unlike submarines use them. Ploting the contacts over time, short or long, will give you a reasonable idea of where someone is. Exact statistics would depend on the passive sensors used. And hell, you could plot the ECM or ECCM being broadcasted. Once a basic plot is established then the gunners could use bracketing fire until the target is hit. This is obviously time consumming and should only be used at LONG ranges but would work well.

[AL]

The WEG [Sigh...] Rebel Sourcebook explains, with diagrams, typical SW fleet movements and deployments.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rcrierie/ ... RebCh4.htm

WEG and the EGVV also state that an imperial command ship is only 5km long. Both sources are very inaccurate

[Mr Bean]

WEG and the EGVV also state that an imperial command ship is only 5km long. Both sources are very inaccurate

Cannon unless contradicted Al, thems the rules and why WEG is at the very bottom of the list

[AL]

WEG and the EGVV also state that an imperial command ship is only 5km long. Both sources are very inaccurate

Cannon unless contradicted Al, thems the rules and why WEG is at the very bottom of the list

Why were these tactics not used at the battle of endor? Istead we see a different tactic employed one never before tried. I hate to dis agree with you about things mister bean, you have posted great things and you still do and your knowledge and theorries are quite respectable.

Star Wars -> Movie Novellization -> Star Wars VI: Return of the Jedi Novellization / Tactics
Pg. 153 : "I said closer! Move as close as you can and engage the Star Destroyers at point blank range - that way the Death Star won't be albe to fire at us without knocking out its own ships!"

"But no one's ever gone nose to nose at that range, between supervessels like their Destroyers and our Cruisers!" Ackbar fumed at the unthinkable - but their options were running out.

"Great!" yelled Lando, skimming over the surface of the Destroyer. "Then we're inventing a new kind of combat!"

"We know nothing about the tactics of such a confrontation!" Ackbar protested.

"We know as much as they do!" Lando hollered. "And they'll think we know more!"

[continued on page 154]

Bluffing was always dangerous in the last hand: but sometimes when all your money was in the pot, it was the only way to win - and Lando never played to lose.

"At that close-range, we won't last long against Star Destroyers." Ackbar was already feeling giddy with resignation.

"We'll last longer than we will against that Death Star and we might just take a few of them with us.!" Lando whooped. With a jolt, one of his forward guns was blown away. He put the Falcon into a controlled spin, and careened around the belly of the Imperial leviathan.

With little else to lose, Ackbar decided to try Calrissian's strategy. In the next minutes, dozens of rebel Cruisers moved in astronomically close to the Imeprial Star Destroyers - and the colossal antagonists began bl asting away at each other, like tanks at twenty paces, while hundreds of
tiny fighters raced across their surfaces, zipping between laser bolts as they chased around the massive hulls.

Submitted by: His Divine Shadow - 01/01/2000 13:01:01
Copy options:

[His Divine Shadow]

AL, it is easier if you just click the UBB button, it'll automatically copy the quote into memory complete with formatting compatible with this forum and SB.

[AL]

Thank you His Devine Shadow.

[Connor MacLeod]

WEG and the EGVV also state that an imperial command ship is only 5km long. Both sources are very inaccurate

Cannon unless contradicted Al, thems the rules and why WEG is at the very bottom of the list

Why were these tactics not used at the battle of endor? Istead we see a different tactic employed one never before tried. I hate to dis agree with you about things mister bean, you have posted great things and you still do and your knowledge and theorries are quite respectable.

Star Wars -> Movie Novellization -> Star Wars VI: Return of the Jedi Novellization / Tactics
Pg. 153 : "I said closer! Move as close as you can and engage the Star Destroyers at point blank range - that way the Death Star won't be albe to fire at us without knocking out its own ships!"

"But no one's ever gone nose to nose at that range, between supervessels like their Destroyers and our Cruisers!" Ackbar fumed at the unthinkable - but their options were running out.

"Great!" yelled Lando, skimming over the surface of the Destroyer. "Then we're inventing a new kind of combat!"

"We know nothing about the tactics of such a confrontation!" Ackbar protested.

"We know as much as they do!" Lando hollered. "And they'll think we know more!"

[continued on page 154]

Bluffing was always dangerous in the last hand: but sometimes when all your money was in the pot, it was the only way to win - and Lando never played to lose.

"At that close-range, we won't last long against Star Destroyers." Ackbar was already feeling giddy with resignation.

"We'll last longer than we will against that Death Star and we might just take a few of them with us.!" Lando whooped. With a jolt, one of his forward guns was blown away. He put the Falcon into a controlled spin, and careened around the belly of the Imperial leviathan.

With little else to lose, Ackbar decided to try Calrissian's strategy. In the next minutes, dozens of rebel Cruisers moved in astronomically close to the Imeprial Star Destroyers - and the colossal antagonists began bl asting away at each other, like tanks at twenty paces, while hundreds of
tiny fighters raced across their surfaces, zipping between laser bolts as they chased around the massive hulls.

Submitted by: His Divine Shadow - 01/01/2000 13:01:01
Copy options:

Problem: The quote refers explicitly to the distances involved. What it tells us is that point blank (close up engagements) are up until this point rare if not unheard of (in reality, this is unlikely given thousands of generations of space travel.

The Rebel Allinace Sourcebook quotes relate to tactics, not specifying the exact ranges those combats neccesarily engage at. We don't neccesarily know exactly what tactics were used at Endor.. some maybe, but that doesnt mean some of those outlined in the source book weren't.

Hence, your attempt to create an impkied contradiction is invalid.

[Connor MacLeod]

The WEG [Sigh...] Rebel Sourcebook explains, with diagrams, typical SW fleet movements and deployments.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rcrierie/ ... RebCh4.htm

WEG and the EGVV also state that an imperial command ship is only 5km long. Both sources are very inaccurate

Irrelevant., You cannot use specific examples of one contradiction to validate dismissing another one unless it can be proven a direct contradiction exists, and no adequate rationalization can be made to explain it.

[Mr Bean]

I hate to dis agree with you about things mister bean, you have posted great things and you still do and your knowledge and theorries are quite respectable.

No problem I'm quite happy when people disagree with me as long as they present a reason and evidance WHY they disagree. No theory is perfect so testing it can only help

Problem: The quote refers explicitly to the distances involved. What it tells us is that point blank (close up engagements) are up until this point rare if not unheard of (in reality, this is unlikely given thousands of generations of space travel.

Yes, notice exaclty how close the ships WHERE at Endor, Point Blank with Light mintue weaponry ranges probably IS unheard of even with Jamming, At say Five Light Seconds(1,500,000Kms roughly) ordinary visual sensors should be sufficent to see the other ship even though that position is five seconds old because those ships can't move very fast

Typical battles(Thanks to jamming) occure at anywhere from .8-6 Lightseconds based on EU evidance

What the Rebels did at Endor was to close within TWO HUNDRED Kms, Considering the fact that battles can occure over a million KMs away quite easly, that has to be nearly unheard of, It does not contradict what I'm saying, Rather it fleshes it out more

Heck even .1 LS is 29980Kms away, that should tell you somthing about the fact that 200 KMs away WOULD be unheard of

[AL]

I hate to dis agree with you about things mister bean, you have posted great things and you still do and your knowledge and theorries are quite respectable.

No problem I'm quite happy when people disagree with me as long as they present a reason and evidance WHY they disagree. No theory is perfect so testing it can only help

Problem: The quote refers explicitly to the distances involved. What it tells us is that point blank (close up engagements) are up until this point rare if not unheard of (in reality, this is unlikely given thousands of generations of space travel.

Yes, notice exaclty how close the ships WHERE at Endor, Point Blank with Light mintue weaponry ranges probably IS unheard of even with Jamming, At say Five Light Seconds(1,500,000Kms roughly) ordinary visual sensors should be sufficent to see the other ship even though that position is five seconds old because those ships can't move very fast

Typical battles(Thanks to jamming) occure at anywhere from .8-6 Lightseconds based on EU evidance

What the Rebels did at Endor was to close within TWO HUNDRED Kms, Considering the fact that battles can occure over a million KMs away quite easly, that has to be nearly unheard of, It does not contradict what I'm saying, Rather it fleshes it out more

Heck even .1 LS is 29980Kms away, that should tell you somthing about the fact that 200 KMs away WOULD be unheard of

So we agree that most battle will occur a close range and that jamming affects capital ship combat more than most think?

[Mr Bean]

So we agree that most battle will occur a close range and that jamming affects capital ship combat more than most think?

If close range is 500,000KM+ then yes

[AL]

So we agree that most battle will occur a close range and that jamming affects capital ship combat more than most think?

If close range is 500,000KM+ then yes

I think we have a contadiction here within the EU. WEG Rebel Alliance source book Page 54. Battle Zones. The Long Engagement Zone: The long engagement zone has a radious of approximatley 120,000 Meters. This is long range for the cruisers' weapons. As lasers lose Coherency and thus power over distance, cruisers are are pretty much unable to harm enemy cruisers in the long engagement zone. THerfore, at this range, they consentrate their fire against the more fragile escort vessels.
pg.54

the kill zone being 60,000 meters
Secondary zone being 40,000 meters
Primary Zone being 20,000 meters

I must disagree with the 500,000km+ theory. Close range may be anything under 20000meters.

[AL]

This gives a maximum effective range of about 75 miles for TL, according to this source.

[Connor MacLeod]

So we agree that most battle will occur a close range and that jamming affects capital ship combat more than most think?

If close range is 500,000KM+ then yes

I think we have a contadiction here within the EU. WEG Rebel Alliance source book Page 54. Battle Zones. The Long Engagement Zone: The long engagement zone has a radious of approximatley 120,000 Meters. This is long range for the cruisers' weapons. As lasers lose Coherency and thus power over distance, cruisers are are pretty much unable to harm enemy cruisers in the long engagement zone. THerfore, at this range, they consentrate their fire against the more fragile escort vessels.
pg.54

the kill zone being 60,000 meters
Secondary zone being 40,000 meters
Primary Zone being 20,000 meters

I must disagree with the 500,000km+ theory. Close range may be anything under 20000meters.

You mean this?

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rcrierie/ ... lezone.gif

Basically if you did what I think you did, you tried scaling the engagement zones against the capital ships, and that CLEARLY does not work, since it says teh ship sizes are not to scale with distance.

anyhow, atmospheric ranges for the TLs are 150 kms by that source, and most other EU sources put them in the thousands to tens of thousands of km range (at least bombarding.)

I'm really puzzled why you seem obsessed at limiting ranges so.

[Mr Bean]

People forget, WEG=Bottom of the Barrel
We see 10K+KM fights in EU constantly and they where at least 2000KMs away from the DS before the SD showed up

Also suppsodly the Deleted Space battle in AOTC was 10K+Km ranges

[AL]

If close range is 500,000KM+ then yes

I think we have a contadiction here within the EU. WEG Rebel Alliance source book Page 54. Battle Zones. The Long Engagement Zone: The long engagement zone has a radious of approximatley 120,000 Meters. This is long range for the cruisers' weapons. As lasers lose Coherency and thus power over distance, cruisers are are pretty much unable to harm enemy cruisers in the long engagement zone. THerfore, at this range, they consentrate their fire against the more fragile escort vessels.
pg.54

the kill zone being 60,000 meters
Secondary zone being 40,000 meters
Primary Zone being 20,000 meters

I must disagree with the 500,000km+ theory. Close range may be anything under 20000meters.

You mean this?

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rcrierie/ ... lezone.gif

Basically if you did what I think you did, you tried scaling the engagement zones against the capital ships, and that CLEARLY does not work, since it says teh ship sizes are not to scale with distance.

anyhow, atmospheric ranges for the TLs are 150 kms by that source, and most other EU sources put them in the thousands to tens of thousands of km range (at least bombarding.)

I'm really puzzled why you seem obsessed at limiting ranges so.

I'm not my other post makes it clear. The source says and I am pointing out a contradiction in the EU books and data and you just helped me with that thank you.

[Connor MacLeod]

This gives a maximum effective range of about 75 miles for TL, according to this source.

Firing ranges are hardly absolute. They can vary according to targeting method (visual, sensor, computer or manual), levels and kinds of EW, the kinds of sensors being employed, emissions/data quality, ship size/type, absence or presence of ionization effects, obscuring details (other ships in the vicinity, planets, asteroids, etc.) fire arc, intent to kill, disable, or whatnot, manuvering, lag time (esp with slower than light or lightspeed sensors), propogation rate of weapon (if applicable), bearing and/or speed of targe, target's own inertia, your own speed/bearing, locale (engagements in deep space are going to be different than orbital battles around a planet), use of hyperdrive (To close gaps, esp. microjumping.), etc.

Equally though, its probably just as wrong to assume as Bean does that because they CAN target at long ranges (multi light second in ship combat IS a possibility, and not neccesarily unusual) that this is standard, or that they only rarely engage in close range duels. Due to technological parity (ref: Rebel alliance sourcebook, chapter 5, and Han Solo at Star's End) of sensors and jamming between opponents (IE Rebels and Imperials), visual ranges are the most reliable engagement ranges for combat, generally. (there are some other factors that can assist in making shorter ranges more probable, such as laser dissipation rate/coherency, lag time of sensors or weapons propogation speed, etc.)

Typical SW (non Yuuzhan Vong) engagement ranges tend to fall in the low tens of thousands of km range, more reliably in the thousands or hundreds of km range (anything less than 100 km is considered point blank, really. Ref: Lando Calrissian and the Starcave of Thonboka). Longer range engagements are not unheard of, but not neccesarily common or desirable.
ROTJ is an excellent canon example of fleet-scale combat ranges in the thousands of km range.

[AL]

People forget, WEG=Bottom of the Barrel
We see 10K+KM fights in EU constantly and they where at least 2000KMs away from the DS before the SD showed up

Also suppsodly the Deleted Space battle in AOTC was 10K+Km ranges

I agree with you, but does the EU get its sources from WEG and the EGVV? If they do the data is inconsistent with its own data from both sources and then I wonder do some of the authors just make it up as they go along?