Describing Star Wars particle shielding as a vector field

[PainRack]

My shielding system makes perfect sense for launching fighters, and frankly, it's one of the only models I've seen that can explain the launch of fighters while the shields are still raised. Since the shield vectors point outward, all the fighter has to do is let itself travel along one of those vectors, and it can launch without using any of its own power at all.

The asteroid destruction in TESB could be accomplished through manipulation of the field vectors to increase the pressure applied to the incoming object.


As for the double-blind aspect of the exhaust port, it makes perfect sense. The shields I propose are omni-directional and elliptical. Put a particle shield like the one I'm describing on that exhaust port, and the particles will be suppressed.

Could you post some WEG quotes showing that particle shields are generally double-blind?

1. It can explain launching of fighters, but recovery? Recall that the docking bay in ROTJ was exposed to space, and the shields must be down in order for the shuttle to enter. There has been reference to a magnetic shield in the ANH novelisation for the Death Star, but magnetic shields shouldn't be keeping in air.

Somehow, we must have a particle shield that choose what objects to let in or out.

2. Shearing effects will mean a vast, constant difference in potential energy at any point in the field, and it no longers becomes a simple vector field.
Ignoring the physics, cost and energy s, why do that when a simple deflection shield will do?

Furthermore, a shearing effect will also means launching figthers, are also destroyed.

3. As for duality, I was referring more to energy shield generator vs particle shield generator. I'm leaning more towards the theory that there are multiple models of shield generators in the market, that exhibit a variety of energy and particle shield characteristics. It is possible of course, to have purely energy shield generator or particle shield generator, but there are alternatives.

As for double blind, it doesn't work either. Assuming that the particle shield is double blind, how do the X-wing engines propel the ship? Or do we now assume that the X-wing rear is not shielded?

[Durandal]

1. It can explain launching of fighters, but recovery? Recall that the docking bay in ROTJ was exposed to space, and the shields must be down in order for the shuttle to enter. There has been reference to a magnetic shield in the ANH novelisation for the Death Star, but magnetic shields shouldn't be keeping in air.

A magnetic shield would be completely different from a particle shield; I'm not exactly what function it served on the Death Star.

Somehow, we must have a particle shield that choose what objects to let in or out.

That's fairly simple to explain. Retrieving fighters is done through use of a tractor beam. The beam could simply cancel out the forces around the docking bay.

2. Shearing effects will mean a vast, constant difference in potential energy at any point in the field, and it no longers becomes a simple vector field.

What are you talking about? It's a vector field all the same, with some of the vectors redirected from their normal directions. Such a manipulation would probably nullify the conservative aspect of the field (not quite sure, I'll have to look it up when I get back home), thus requiring extra energy input from the ship's reactor. Of course, such pressurizing force vectors could simply supplement the already-existing conservative field, rather than having to manipulate the field.

Ignoring the physics, cost and energy s, why do that when a simple deflection shield will do?

Firstly, it allows for a shield that can be manipulated beyond simple scaling. Secondly, it repulses objects instead of destroying them, which requires far less work. As a consequence of being manipulable, you can focus vectors into a pressure point to destroy an incoming object, if you wish.

Furthermore, a shearing effect will also means launching figthers, are also destroyed.

Only if the shield operators intentionally do that.

3. As for duality, I was referring more to energy shield generator vs particle shield generator. I'm leaning more towards the theory that there are multiple models of shield generators in the market, that exhibit a variety of energy and particle shield characteristics. It is possible of course, to have purely energy shield generator or particle shield generator, but there are alternatives.

That would make sense.

As for double blind, it doesn't work either. Assuming that the particle shield is double blind, how do the X-wing engines propel the ship? Or do we now assume that the X-wing rear is not shielded?

What's so hard to envision about that? My shields would propel the particles outward, so they make perfect sense. The idea of a double-blind barrier does not. Normally, on Mike's site, official evidence takes a back seat to real-world physics.

[Connor MacLeod]

"Gigantic chunks of glowing stone appeared out of the nothingness, barely shunted aside by the ship's deflectors. She strain caused the Millenium Falcon to begin shuddering violently."

ANH novelization page 124

That w ould, I think, give some partial support to the kind of shield system Durandal is arguing

[Durandal]

"Gigantic chunks of glowing stone appeared out of the nothingness, barely shunted aside by the ship's deflectors. She strain caused the Millenium Falcon to begin shuddering violently."

ANH novelization page 124

That w ould, I think, give some partial support to the kind of shield system Durandal is arguing

At least on the Falcon. As I have said before, there are a various corporations in the Star Wars galaxy that design shields and ships. We don't really need to subscribe to the Star Trek idea that every piece of Federation technology must work the same because the Federation is the manufacturer of everything.

As PainRack pointed out, my system doesn't explain fighter recovery without additional explanations about how tractor beams work, thus making it more complex. (Though let's be honest, this whole "double-blind shields that somehow allow ejecta to escape" idea isn't exactly a big challenger.) However, for a craft that doesn't have to worry about launching fighters, it would work without a problem.

[vakundok]

There is an other example in TESB novelisation (and in the fourth draft of the shooting script), the shield of the probe droid. When the night came the probe droid created a force field dome which was quickly covered by snow. I think the snow could not cover the shield what Durandal proposed.

The perceived border of the shield is relative to the acceleration of the incoming object. For a second, just assume that this shielding system acts like gravity, meaning that its induced acceleration decreases inversely proportionally to the square of the radius from the center. If Hoth has a gravitational acceleration of 10 m/s², then the snow flakes will actually hover in equilibrium at approximately the radius where the shield's induced acceleration is -10 m/s², because the shield will be exerting the equivalent of a drag force on them. Of course, this precludes the interference of wind, but that would apply to any kind of shield anyway.

Sorry, I have not been here for a while. My problem was that I assumed that the force vectors came from the center of the dome, so at 45 degrees, the force vector would produce a ~1G force upward (to hold the snow) but also the same force toward the side, away from the dome. That was why I thought that the snow would be thrown away, unable to cover the '1G dome'.

[Durandal]

Sorry, I have not been here for a while. My problem was that I assumed that the force vectors came from the center of the dome, so at 45 degrees, the force vector would produce a ~1G force upward (to hold the snow) but also the same force toward the side, away from the dome. That was why I thought that the snow would be thrown away, unable to cover the '1G dome'.

They come from around the center, yes. However, your critical mistake is in assuming that each component of force has the same magnitude as the total force itself. This is not the case. The force in the x-direction will be F sin (theta), where theta is the angle of the vector's direction. The y-component will have magnitude F cos (theta). Adding these two vectors together and taking their magnitudes will reduce down to just F.

But visualize the scenario for a second. Let's say that the probe droid's shield is, indeed, some barrier. What should we expect to happen if we start dropping snow on it (neglecting wind and drag)? We'll of course, see a lot of the snow pile on near the top of the dome shield, and there will be less on the sides, because the supporting y-component force decreases with theta (the angle of the point on the sphere with respect to its center). We should see a fairly regular decrease in the volume of snow clumping as we approach the equator from the top of the sphere, if we're tracing along its surface.

Now, suppose we have a vector field. We should expect basically the same results. The y-component of each outward-pointing vector decreases as you approach the equator. So there will be less of a force to cancel gravity. But there is also the x-component to deal with, as well. The x-component will grow as the y-component shrinks. Thus, as we approach the equator, more snow will be driven off to the sides and not clump on the dome, which is exactly what we expect from a barrier shield.

Granted, the magnitudes for each respective phenomenon will be different, but they will basically be same same effect described in the TESB novel. Since the novel never gives a radius that the snow sits away from the droid, we can't tell which theory is more accurate based on this observation alone. Both explain it equally well within the confines of our ability to test.

[The Dark]

Ambush at Corellia would seem to add credence to the vector field theory. Han and Chewie test the Falcon's shields by hovering ~2 meters, engaging shields, and cutting repulsors. The ship balances on the shields, but does not destroy the landing field. It does mention something about the shields having "energy webs". Would it be possible that each emitter creates a vector field around it, causing overlapping vector fields? A "pure" vector field doesn't seem like it would have anything that could be called a "web".

[Durandal]

Ambush at Corellia would seem to add credence to the vector field theory. Han and Chewie test the Falcon's shields by hovering ~2 meters, engaging shields, and cutting repulsors. The ship balances on the shields, but does not destroy the landing field. It does mention something about the shields having "energy webs". Would it be possible that each emitter creates a vector field around it, causing overlapping vector fields? A "pure" vector field doesn't seem like it would have anything that could be called a "web".

It'd make a hell of a lot more sense than the ship balancing perfectly on its center of gravity with a giant "shell" shield around it. If the field was symmetrical, the x-components of the vector field (on the bottom of the ship) would cancel each other out, leaving only the y-components to counteract the gravitational force.

However, the top end of the shield would divert air molecules around it as well. If the shields are only being used to counter g-forces, though, there shouldn't be any significant effect beyond sending air molecules accelerating off at roughly 1 g.

[PainRack]

Durandal, just a few more concerns. How did the Empire, keep the docking bay pressuried, if the shield isn't double blind? Of course, its totally possible that there is another forcefield keeping the air in, but then, that would affect fighter recovery.


As for shearing, how does the shield automatically selects for shearing effects? Or is it an manual option that can be turned on or off? Perhaps the ISD in the asteroid field chose the shearing effect as it would have a higher gurantee of ensuring no asteroids did penetrate the shields?

Please understand that I'm not opposing your theory. I like it. However, the best way to establish a theory, is to question and attack it.

Shield dynamics has been something that I'm quietly looking at for a year or so, and its extremely confusing. Hopefully, your work might clear up the matter.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Durandal, just a few more concerns. How did the Empire, keep the docking bay pressuried, if the shield isn't double blind? Of course, its totally possible that there is another forcefield keeping the air in, but then, that would affect fighter recovery.

Magcon, IIRC, Darksabre.

[vakundok]

Sorry, I have not been here for a while. My problem was that I assumed that the force vectors came from the center of the dome, so at 45 degrees, the force vector would produce a ~1G force upward (to hold the snow) but also the same force toward the side, away from the dome. That was why I thought that the snow would be thrown away, unable to cover the '1G dome'.

They come from around the center, yes. However, your critical mistake is in assuming that each component of force has the same magnitude as the total force itself. This is not the case. The force in the x-direction will be F sin (theta), where theta is the angle of the vector's direction. The y-component will have magnitude F cos (theta). Adding these two vectors together and taking their magnitudes will reduce down to just F.

No, I did not make that mistake. (Mabe it would have been more correct to write '1G vertical component dome' instead of '1G dome'.) I wrote that 'at 45 degrees' as an example only because at 45 degrees the horizontal and vertical components are the same. I think you admit that all vectors in the dome (except the one pointing directly upward) have some horizontal component. Closer to the ground, the higher the horizontal component is. And I cannot see the reason why the snowflakes would remain on the dome despite the horizontal component of the actual force vector which holds the snowflake.

[Durandal]

Durandal, just a few more concerns. How did the Empire, keep the docking bay pressuried, if the shield isn't double blind? Of course, its totally possible that there is another forcefield keeping the air in, but then, that would affect fighter recovery.

I don't see a problem with having a semi-permeable, Star Trek-esque forcefield explain that effect. It might be something like the Gungans' technology, where it only lets objects of a certain velocity through, and keeps everything else in.

And ... magnetic confinement to keep atmosphere in? That makes no sense.

As for shearing, how does the shield automatically selects for shearing effects? Or is it an manual option that can be turned on or off? Perhaps the ISD in the asteroid field chose the shearing effect as it would have a higher gurantee of ensuring no asteroids did penetrate the shields?

It could be any number of things, depending on the situation. It could be manually activated, or computer-controlled (probably the case with the ISD in the asteroid field since the captain was rather surprised by it). My theory predicts that either the shield on that ISD was very weakened or the asteroid had sufficient kinetic energy to penetrate as deeply as it did, at which point the shields automatically adjusted themselves.

It's possible that, after a few days of such occurrences, asteroids managed to slip through and damage the hull while others were being sheered. Sheering would, of course, divert force and potential energy from other parts of the shield, making them easier to penetrate.

Please understand that I'm not opposing your theory. I like it. However, the best way to establish a theory, is to question and attack it.

Of course. That's why I posted it here rather than keeping it to myself.

I originally asked for anything verifying or discrediting this theory, so that it could be improved.

No, I did not make that mistake. (Mabe it would have been more correct to write '1G vertical component dome' instead of '1G dome'.) I wrote that 'at 45 degrees' as an example only because at 45 degrees the horizontal and vertical components are the same. I think you admit that all vectors in the dome (except the one pointing directly upward) have some horizontal component. Closer to the ground, the higher the horizontal component is.

That is incorrect. The closer to the equator of the shield (if we were to imagine a spherical shield), the more significant the horizontal component is. However, given that the droidekas in TPM had what looked a lot like a discrete barrier, I don't see why probe droids couldn't have the same thing. I'm mainly more interested in starship shielding.

And I cannot see the reason why the snowflakes would remain on the dome despite the horizontal component of the actual force vector which holds the snowflake.

It's a bit hard to visualize, and there's really no need to anyway. See above.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Durandal, just a few more concerns. How did the Empire, keep the docking bay pressuried, if the shield isn't double blind? Of course, its totally possible that there is another forcefield keeping the air in, but then, that would affect fighter recovery.

I don't see a problem with having a semi-permeable, Star Trek-esque forcefield explain that effect. It might be something like the Gungans' technology, where it only lets objects of a certain velocity through, and keeps everything else in.

And ... magnetic confinement to keep atmosphere in? That makes no sense.

I know, that's just what I recalled from Darksabre, which WAS written by Anderson, y'know.

[vakundok]

Hmm, and what about the shields of the DSs?
When the fighters reached the shield of the DS I they began to shake, but after they passed the shield barrier the effect disappeared. Can that theoretical vector shield leave a place between the defended object and the 'barrier' (where the force is really high), where the force would be very low?
The shield of the DS II was generated on the moon. I assume, it was projected from there as well. Can that theoretical shield have the defended object between the source and the 'barrier'?

On second thought, where is the (projecting) source of this theoretical shield? Is the whole hull of the defended object a projector surface, or is it deep within the defended object, and its effect is somehow deleted inside the object?

[Durandal]

Hmm, and what about the shields of the DSs?
When the fighters reached the shield of the DS I they began to shake, but after they passed the shield barrier the effect disappeared. Can that theoretical vector shield leave a place between the defended object and the 'barrier' (where the force is really high), where the force would be very low?

That was a "magnetic shield," if I remember correctly, not a particle shield.

The shield of the DS II was generated on the moon. I assume, it was projected from there as well. Can that theoretical shield have the defended object between the source and the 'barrier'?

That's a good question. I don't know that we ever observed something like that in the film.

On second thought, where is the (projecting) source of this theoretical shield? Is the whole hull of the defended object a projector surface, or is it deep within the defended object, and its effect is somehow deleted inside the object?

Another good question. Obviously, if th field originates within the hull, it'd tear the hull apart, so it must start from outside the hull. I think that Mike has already theorized about shielding segments to prevent resonances on SW ships, though, so the same idea could be applied here.

[PainRack]

Durandal, just a few more concerns. How did the Empire, keep the docking bay pressuried, if the shield isn't double blind? Of course, its totally possible that there is another forcefield keeping the air in, but then, that would affect fighter recovery.

I don't see a problem with having a semi-permeable, Star Trek-esque forcefield explain that effect. It might be something like the Gungans' technology, where it only lets objects of a certain velocity through, and keeps everything else in.

And ... magnetic confinement to keep atmosphere in? That makes no sense.

I know, that's just what I recalled from Darksabre, which WAS written by Anderson, y'know.

Magnetic shields have been mentioned in response to atmosphere control since ANH script came out. However, it just makes no sense, unless of course, we assume that an ionisation field also exists at the exit of the docking bay, ionising the air particles, thus allowing a electromagnetic field to prevent air from escaping.

But then, considering that ionised particles can interact with tractor beams, as vis a vis Lando attempt to escape from Thrawn in Spectre of the Past, that rises another diffculty altogether.

[Ender]

I don't see a problem with having a semi-permeable, Star Trek-esque forcefield explain that effect. It might be something like the Gungans' technology, where it only lets objects of a certain velocity through, and keeps everything else in.

And ... magnetic confinement to keep atmosphere in? That makes no sense.

I know, that's just what I recalled from Darksabre, which WAS written by Anderson, y'know.

Magnetic shields have been mentioned in response to atmosphere control since ANH script came out. However, it just makes no sense, unless of course, we assume that an ionisation field also exists at the exit of the docking bay, ionising the air particles, thus allowing a electromagnetic field to prevent air from escaping.

But then, considering that ionised particles can interact with tractor beams, as vis a vis Lando attempt to escape from Thrawn in Spectre of the Past, that rises another diffculty altogether.

Tractor beams are gravity based as per Dark Tide 1, so anything with mass will interact with them