Emperor's storehouses

[Darth Garden Gnome]

To clarify, Palpatine wanted the Empire to crumble, for the warlords to split off into the Mid and Outer Rim so that NR forces were away from the Core. In that way, Palpatine could stomp over Coruscant unopposed.

Relevent text:

"Krennel's dominion crumbled, and the New Republic navy pushed forward still farther. In only a short time since the death of Thrawn, the Empire had lost all of its recently won territory. Tasting victory, the New Republic fleet advanced outward into Imperially(sic) held sections of the Rim, leaving Coruscant and the Core Worlds relatively unprotected.

Which is exactly how Emperor Palpatine wanted it." - P.90, Essential Chronology

And IP, as long as we're posting in the same thread, I concede the Sate Pestage debate. It was a silly argument.

[consequences]

Shouldn't an Emperor's duty be to rule over his subjects, and direct them according to his whim? As a military commander he abandoned his post, and acted in a manner deliberately detrimental to the well-being of his command. By the standards of providing order to a war-torn galaxy, that was no doubt his reason for declaring himself emperor during/after the Clone Wars, he failed as well, and after Endor, acted in a manner to directly impede.

[FTeik]

The DESB disagrees with the EC:

"This was the case until the last of the Emperor's Warlords, the feared Grand Admiral Thrawn, returned abruptly from the Unknown Regions to organize a military force. With classic feints and distractions, he quickly secured vital supplies and troops. He also somehow gained the aid of a twisted Dark Jedi, Joruus C'baoth. In possession of the lost technical secrets of Mount Tantiss (one of the Emperor's hidden storehouses of technology, artifacts and "trophies" from his military campaigns) Thrawn was ready to launch a frighteningly effective counter-attack against a complacent Republic.
Within months, both Imperial morale and combat effectiveness reached pre-Endor levels and the "Galactic" in Galactic Empire seemed all too appropriate once again. Still, the Alliance had faced worse odds before, and soon the New Republic called upon Luke Skywalker, the last of the Jedi Knights, and his sister and Jedi-in-training, Leia, along with Han Solo, Lando Calrissian, Chewbacca, R2-D2 and C-3P0 and others to put aside the work of building the New Republic in the interest of preserving its very existence.
Despite cunning and remarkable strategies, Thrawn and C'baoth faced final defeat at the hands of the Republic. The new Imperial offensive was smashed. Or should have been.
Somehow, the Empire's offensive continued, seemingly with renewed strength and many more forces than Thrawn had been able to call upon. The Empire forced the Rebels from Coruscant, capital of the Republic."

As for the matter of uniforms not up to standard, this is not only the case for the Chiss at Niraun (do we know, what uniforms the humans there wear?), it is also true for the imperial officers in DE, as well as for example some imperial soldiers in Boba Fett: Enemy of the empire and none of those are defectors, deserters or traitors.

And there is nothing, that shows, that the ideals of Syndic Mit´thraw´nuruodo or his household-phalanx differ in any way from the ideals of the empire at the time of ROTJ.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Firstly: addressing The Essential Chronology and The Dark Empire Sourcebook with regards to the events preceeding the Second Battle of Coruscant, but following the Battle of Bilbringi.

Krennel's dominion crumbled, and the New Republic navy pushed forward still farther. In only a short time since the death of Thrawn, the Empire had lost all of its recently won territory. Tasting victory, the New Republic fleet advanced outward into Imperially [sic] held sections of the Rim, leaving Coruscant and the Core Worlds relatively unprotected.

Which is exactly how Emperor Palpatine wanted it. (quote courtesy of Darth Garden Gnome)

Somehow, the Empire's offensive continued, seemingly with renewed strength and many more forces than Thrawn had been able to call upon. The Empire forced the Rebels from Coruscant, capital of the Republic. (quote courtesy of Fteik)

"You've distilled four hours of Provisional Council discussions down to the key points. We're going to have to go after the warlords, and the first one has to fall in relatively short order."

Now, The Essential Chronology claims that the NRDF advanced into Imperial territories in the Rim, and that most of Thrawn's gains were rapidly lost. This placed them away from the Core and badly out of position to defend an assault on Coruscant. Meanwhile, The Dark Empire Sourceboook claims that the Empire's offensive continued with bolstered strength and forces, and promptly pushed the New Republic from Coruscant. Isard's Revenge claims that the Provisional Council decided to assault the warlords, starting with Krennel, and The Essential Chronology says the Imperial Coalition assaulted Coruscant immediately following Krennel's defeat.

Curiously, The Essential Chronology seems to imply a self-contradiction: while it claims that following Krennel's defeat, the New Republic invaded Imperial territory and most of Thrawn's gains were lost, it also states that Coruscant was attacked "immediately after" Krennel's defeat.

Also: The Dark Empire Sourcebook does not account for New Republic advances or the collapse of Thrawn's gains because Isard's Revenge had not yet been written and the assumption was that the Second Battle of Coruscant followed the Battle of Bilbringi by weeks at most (days at least), and Isard's Revenge retconned that to many months. The Essential Chronology reflects this.

A compromise must be reached. What I consider the most likely sliding-together of the sources is presented below.

Immediately following Thrawn's defeat, we know the Provisional Council and Ackbar's fleet supported and executed a several-month campiagn, toppling Prince-Admiral Krennel and his warlord fiefdom.

Immediately thereafter, six former* Starfleet commanders (ie. warlords) and the Emperor's Ruling Circle, which apparently was again in de facto control of the Empire, assaulted Coruscant and the rest of the Core Worlds thereafter. This assault, according to the New Republic Historical Council, originated in the Deep Core.

* (The Essential Chronology erroneously refers to them as Imperial commanders)

Now, simultaneously, the NRDF advanced toward the Rim. The collapse of Thrawn's gains does not contradict that the Empire's offensives continued--they simply abandoned the undefensible territories captured under Thrawn's campiagns and prepared and then launched a new offensive from a different base of operations without losing a beat. The text never says the Empire was losing battles and campiagns and started winning again--therefore the offensive never really ended: it slowed down during the shift in leadership and base of operations, but the battle against the New Republic continued while they occupied themselves with the warlords.

The New Republic offensives between the Battles for Bibringi and Coruscant were against the warlords (not the loyalist Imperials formerly under Thrawn's command)--and the Historical Council simply chooses to identify the warlords with Imperials (referring to the six former Starfleet commanders as Imperial fleet commanders), possibly assuming that they'd already secretly resealed their pact with the Emperor, and were already secretly under the same banner. Either way, the NR offensive into Imperial-held sections of the Rim occurred coincidentally with the Imperial offensive on Coruscant, and did not constitute an interruption in the Imperial efforts, because an "advance" does not constitute a losing campiagn in the Rim by the Empire.

By the way:

And IP, as long as we're posting in the same thread, I concede the Sate Pestage debate. It was a silly argument.

Concession respectfully accepted. You are a fair duelist.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Secondly: on His Imperial Majesty, the Emperor Palpatine's relationship and obligation to his Empire and the treason of Thrawn and his House Phalanx.

One could as well say, they became independent, after their emperor deserted THEM.

No, one cannot, because you cannot comprehend the meaning of the verb, "to desert," idiot.

Fine, then lets replace it with "abandon", dickhead.

Don't use terms so you try and imply that the character was guilty of crimes and failures he wasn't. Its not my responsibility to make sure you're capable of knowing what you're talking about.

What i meant should have been clear without explenation.
Your nit-picking on 100% proper meaning of a word doesn´t change a single thing, that Palpatine spent 6 years hiding in his small private enclave in the deep core, while his empire crumbled.

Was that his fault?

On Byss in the Deep Core, Emperor Palpatine finally recuperated from its difficult transition to a new clone body. (emphasis mine)

He'd spent a year or so in another man's head. And spent the next four and a half years recovering. The text clearly implies he was awaiting recuperation to return--had he recuperated earlier, he would've returned to the Empire.

The Burden of Proof is on you to demonstrate your assertion that he wanted and purposely remained aloof while the Empire fell apart. Esp. when the text says he only waited until he was well and able.

So how would you call his time on Byss during ROTJ and DE?

Recuperating to a point where he could competantly reassume the responsibilities as Galactic Emperor. It was a dangerous galaxy for a weakened and possibly semi-incapacitated Emperor to reveal himself. There was a Rebellion, two seperate coups'de'etat, and his own apprentice and right hand man which actively tried to eliminate him and his throne (and in Vader's case, suceeded in the former). There's precisely diddly for evidence he was even able to issue any commands or do anything until he precipitated Thrawn's elimination. I remind you that is at the end of Thrawn's campiagn, and only six months or so from the time of the Second Battle of Coruscant, and will you fault him a half year or so to ensure the Empire's victory and a successful campiagn against the enemy? Do you have any proof he was well and able before that time, and could've returned to the throne but chose not to?

Aside from your nit-picking and wasteful complaining of not using the "proper" term you have no proof, that the forces at the Hand of Thrawn didn´t bowed to Palpatine´s orders, when he finally decided to return.

A significant portion of the CEDF [Chiss Expansionary Defense Force], Syndic Mitth’raw’nuruodo’s Household Phalanx, has taken an extended leave of the rest of the fleet to deal with encroaching threats. While some would call this action secession and treason, the ruling families have taken care not to stir the populace with such inflammatory talk.

The Chiss military is a sizable force. The Nuruodo family is ultimately in charge of the fleet and army. The military has never been required to act as a single unit, so it is partitioned into 28 colonial units called Phalanxes.

Well, lets see. The MHP (Mitth'raw'noroudo Household Phalanx) defines itself as a seperate entity from the Empire: a Phalanx is the personal military forces belonging to a Chiss syndic. The members swear to die for Thrawn and his ideals, which mostly are protecting the Chiss (by evidence of their actions and according to Gamer.

The Chiss military (which includes the MHP) is not the same entity as the Imperial armed forces by definition, and since the Chiss ruling families refuse to even awknowledge the existance of something like the MHP, I really doubt that the Chiss military is part of the Imperial armed forces.

Therefore, Imperial officers abandoned their posts and joined a foriegn military that also shelters defectors to the Rebellion, like Fel. And even if Palpatine had purposely remained aloof, that's no excuse for abandoning one's military post and joining a foriegn military.

As for me being a revisionist, given clear evidence, i´m willing to concede, that the maron in DE was the real Palpatine. This changes nothing about the fact, that i still think his more or less obvious course and actions to be foolish and extremely dangerous. One really had to wonder, if the guy didn´t learn from history.

Gamer article on the Emperor's Hands, The Essential Chronology, etc. all present proof.

The Palpatine in Dark Empire is the same individual as the Palpatine in Return of the Jedi.

A conclusive refutation of that fact must contain quantificable proof, not qualitative bullshit like "he wasn't characterized the same." LFL and I don't care about your opinion of characterization consistency. If you wish to override the word of the canon, you best have a comprehensive and conclusive reason for doing so.

The Burden of Proof is on you to override a FACT of the Official Star Wars Saga by contradiction. The Burden of Proof cannot be shifted to me to disprove your evasive and qualitative opinion bullshit. That's a fallacy, and is invalid logic.

To clarify, Palpatine wanted the Empire to crumble, for the warlords to split off into the Mid and Outer Rim so that NR forces were away from the Core. In that way, Palpatine could stomp over Coruscant unopposed.

There's no proof that the Empire "crumbled" with respect to losing Thrawn's gains: we already see how stretched they are in the TTT, and it is perfectly reasonable that they simply abandoned indefensible gains and cut losses. Esp. since The Dark Empire Sourcebook says the campiagn continued unabated, and a Historical Council quote of the NR "advancing" does not explicitly contradict that.

Yes, the Emperor profited by waiting until the NR was advancing toward Imperial holdings in the Rim to step up the ongoing campiagn and assaulting Coruscant, but what other alternatives were left to him? Shortly the NR's advances would be totally destroyed. It was the best choice to make.

Shouldn't an Emperor's duty be to rule over his subjects, and direct them according to his whim? As a military commander he abandoned his post, and acted in a manner deliberately detrimental to the well-being of his command. By the standards of providing order to a war-torn galaxy, that was no doubt his reason for declaring himself emperor during/after the Clone Wars, he failed as well, and after Endor, acted in a manner to directly impede.

Alright, lets get something clear.

The man fucking died.

He spent over a year inside one of his Hand's minds, and then spent over four years recuperating. Do you have proof he was able to return but chose not to?

Oh, and just to clarify: he's not a military commander. Vader WAS the Commander-in-chief (or Supreme Commander) before ROTJ (ref: Mandell ISD blueprints), and during his return, his various military executors were the Supreme Commanders.

As for the matter of uniforms not up to standard, this is not only the case for the Chiss at Niraun (do we know, what uniforms the humans there wear?),

The young man wore the formal black uniform of the Syndic Mitth'raw'nuroudo's Household Phalanx, and the insignia of a colonel. (emphasis mine)

They specify that the uniform is of the MHP, which is part of a foriegn military. Don't nitpick. Its just another example and proof that these men are not Imperial warriors anymore. They defected to a foriegn military.

it is also true for the imperial officers in DE, as well as for example some imperial soldiers in Boba Fett: Enemy of the empire and none of those are defectors, deserters or traitors.

Red herrings. Those uniforms are said to belong to the Galactic Empire's armed forces. When you see U.S. sailors wearing a new-style USN BDU, that doesn't mean anything. When you see men who were U.S. soldiers wearing People's Liberation Army BDUs that are said to be PLA BDUs, that's something entirely different. Your analogy is invalid.

And there is nothing, that shows, that the ideals of Syndic Mit´thraw´nuruodo or his household-phalanx differ in any way from the ideals of the empire at the time of ROTJ.

The ideals of the Empire do not include "dying for Thrawn" or "protecting the Chiss." And it wouldn't matter anyway, since regardless of ideology, the MHP is still a foriegn military that harbors Imperial defectors to the Rebellion and is staffed by many former Imperial soldiers.

Syndic Mitth'raw'noroudo's Household Phalanx is part of the Chiss armed forces, a distinct military entity from the Imperial armed forces, answering to a different mission, ideology, and chain-of-command. Do leave the Empire and join such an organization is deserting at best, and defection at worse.

Fteik:

1.) I've produced evidence that Palpatine was not well or able of action or taking the throne until near the end of Thrawn's campiagn. If you wish to prove he chose to not to return to the throne and was capable, prove it. If you cannot prove that, shut up and concede.

2.) The Emperor in DE is the same as the Emperor in ROTJ by implication and according to multiple sources. If you have good reason to disregard those canon sources (and qualitative opinion bullshit is not "good reason" to disregard canon), post such proof. Otherwise shut up and concede.

3.) The MHP is not part of the Empire, so all your analogies are bullshit. If you'd like to demonstrate it isn't defection or desertion, post proof that the MHP is part of the Empire. Otherwise, shut up and concede.

[consequences]

4 years recuperating? When he could have put out the word quietly and had who knows how many Emperor's Hands ready to protect him, or just sent them a telepathic message 'come to Planet X'? There would have been no need for him to go mano a mano with Luke with the number of servitors he had, and he simple knowledge that he was around would have mitigated much of the damage caused by the in-fighting. The devastation of Coruscant, with its literally incalculable death toll is a direct result of he decision to remain in hiding, and to no discernable benefit to the Empire as a whole. Fel's a traitor, and Parck could be defined as one too, but the Emperor is as well.
He. Abandoned. His. Responsibilities.

[Illuminatus Primus]

4 years recuperating? When he could have put out the word quietly and had who knows how many Emperor's Hands ready to protect him,

Yeah, so reliable, given one of them sabotaged his clones precipitating his final death.

Palpatine was rightfully paranoid, and for all we know he was incapacitated in a hospital bed for four years. We only know he started to issue orders again when Thrawn was killed. Like I said, can you prove he was able to do more? To really assume the throne?

or just sent them a telepathic message 'come to Planet X'? There would have been no need for him to go mano a mano with Luke with the number of servitors he had, and he simple knowledge that he was around would have mitigated much of the damage caused by the in-fighting.

Like his apprentice killing him, two coups'd'etat by trusted commanders and servants. These people are the ones responsible for all his deaths! He rightfully waited.

The devastation of Coruscant, with its literally incalculable death toll is a direct result of he decision to remain in hiding,

Most of the civilians evacuated, and Palpatine purposely kept his return secret from some of the Coalition factions to cull the weak, incompetant, and disloyal from his ranks. And why not? If they're weak, incompetant, or disloyal, there wasn't a point to keeping them in the loop. Operation SHADOWHAND didn't need them, had it not been for Palpatine's final death and the destruction of Byss, the New Republic would've been crushed.

So why was Imperial Mutiny a bad thing? It got a rid of unnecessary liabilities. A lot of crap had accumulated in the Empire during Palpatine's absence.

and to no discernable benefit to the Empire as a whole. Fel's a traitor, and Parck could be defined as one too, but the Emperor is as well. He. Abandoned. His. Responsibilities.

The Imperial Mutiny cleansed the ranks of the Empire from the disloyal and incompetant. The forces left after the Mutiny were clearly sufficient to execute Operation SHADOWHAND and reconquer nearly the entire galaxy.

The Emperor is the Empire. He cannot betray himself. Any Empire which developed in his absence along a different line is a perversion of the Empire's ideals. Thrawn's Empire was twisted from what the Empire was supposed to be. The Imperial Remnant is not the Empire, but a fundamentally different state.

And like I said, if you have evidence that he was able to assume the responsibilities of the throne before he precipitated Thrawn's death, please post it. I've already shown that while weak, his servants were not dependable.

[FTeik]

Don't use terms so you try and imply that the character was guilty of crimes and failures he wasn't. Its not my responsibility to make sure you're capable of knowing what you're talking about.

I know, what i meant and you know what i meant. You just don´t like it.

Was that his fault?

Since he didn´t gave his empire a working chain of sucession, yes, he is partly to blame. This is clearyl established in the DESB.

And i want to point at his first meeting with Luke Skywalker on Byss: "I gave them (the NR) years to claim the galaxy for themself, but without the Jedi they failed." So he could have done something, but didn´t.

And given the fact, that we only saw small bits of an imperial military, that should have been much larger in the years between ROTJ and DE or that Zsinj managed to conquer one third of the galaxy without meeting much resistance it is safe to assume, that already then entire fleets were called to the deep core.

He'd spent a year or so in another man's head. And spent the next four and a half years recovering. The text clearly implies he was awaiting recuperation to return--had he recuperated earlier, he would've returned to the Empire.

And its up to you to prove, that he needed four or five years to recover. May i remind you, that the emperors spirit travelled from Dar Soocha (Hutt Space in the outer rim, just like Endor) to Byss after his death without the need for a host or so much time to recover (since he revealed himself shortly after)

Recuperating to a point where he could competantly reassume the responsibilities as Galactic Emperor. It was a dangerous galaxy for a weakened and possibly semi-incapacitated Emperor to reveal himself. There was a Rebellion, two seperate coups'de'etat, and his own apprentice and right hand man which actively tried to eliminate him and his throne (and in Vader's case, suceeded in the former). There's precisely diddly for evidence he was even able to issue any commands or do anything until he precipitated Thrawn's elimination. I remind you that is at the end of Thrawn's campiagn, and only six months or so from the time of the Second Battle of Coruscant, and will you fault him a half year or so to ensure the Empire's victory and a successful campiagn against the enemy? Do you have any proof he was well and able before that time, and could've returned to the throne but chose not to?

See above. He must have recalled ships long before TTT, otherwise their commanders would have turned warlord or been under the command or Thrawn, when he made his offensive.

Well, lets see. The MHP (Mitth'raw'noroudo Household Phalanx) defines itself as a seperate entity from the Empire: a Phalanx is the personal military forces belonging to a Chiss syndic. The members swear to die for Thrawn and his ideals, which mostly are protecting the Chiss (by evidence of their actions and according to Gamer.

And what prevents this from the forces at the Hand of Thrawn being a joint-venture that far away from the centres of imperial power? Especially, if the empire did so before (Tales of the Mos Eisley-Cantina, The story of the Davorian).

Therefore, Imperial officers abandoned their posts and joined a foriegn military that also shelters defectors to the Rebellion, like Fel. And even if Palpatine had purposely remained aloof, that's no excuse for abandoning one's military post and joining a foriegn military.

At least eight years after the final death of Palpatine. Not to forget, that they sent support in the NJO, when called by the IR.

Gamer article on the Emperor's Hands, The Essential Chronology, etc. all present proof.

The Palpatine in Dark Empire is the same individual as the Palpatine in Return of the Jedi.

A conclusive refutation of that fact must contain quantificable proof, not qualitative bullshit like "he wasn't characterized the same." LFL and I don't care about your opinion of characterization consistency. If you wish to override the word of the canon, you best have a comprehensive and conclusive reason for doing so.

The Burden of Proof is on you to override a FACT of the Official Star Wars Saga by contradiction. The Burden of Proof cannot be shifted to me to disprove your evasive and qualitative opinion bullshit. That's a fallacy, and is invalid logic.
[/qute]

Didn´t you read, what i wrote? I already conceeded, that he is the same guy.

There's no proof that the Empire "crumbled" with respect to losing Thrawn's gains: we already see how stretched they are in the TTT, and it is perfectly reasonable that they simply abandoned indefensible gains and cut losses. Esp. since The Dark Empire Sourcebook says the campiagn continued unabated, and a Historical Council quote of the NR "advancing" does not explicitly contradict that.

Of course the empire stayed united the entire five years from ROTJ and TTT and men like Harrsk, Teradoc, Zsinj, Droemmel, Ardus Kain, Grand Admiral Grunger, Grand Admiral Pitta and so on only pretended to set themself apart from the empire [sarcasm].

From the DESB:

A Time Of Change
The Rebellion against the Empire was victorious with the Battle of Endor, but the conflict did not end there. The war to free the galaxy was only now beginning. No longer insurgents, the long-suffering members of the Alliance to Restore the Republic found a thousand worlds eager to join open battle against the demoralized remnants of Palpatine's Imperial juggernaut. The military, bureaucracy and COMPNOR elite could only watch impotently as system after system, sector after sector came under Republic control.
With the loss of Vader and so many talented fleet officers, things looked understandably bleak. More than that, the legions of the Empire found themselves crippled by the loss of the Emperor himself. Without the benefit of his supreme confidence and ruthless foresight, the vast Imperial war machine was paralyzed by indecision. No single individual possessed the power and the will to step forward and unite the military.
Whole squadrons and battlegroups abandoned strategic objectives to follow seemingly random dispatches from competIng authorities. Vast regions of space were left defenseless as the Core systems were transformed into fortress worlds. As the war pressed on, even these worlds fell, and the remaining Imperial forces retreated to isolated backwater regions of the galaxy.
It became more apparent with every passing year that Palpatine had never intended his New Order to survive him. Warriors who had once terrorized a galaxy now found themselves embattled and divided.
However, things weren't all chav and sficca blossoms for the Rebels either. They enjoyed a newfound respect and legitimacy, and in time reclaimed nearly three-quarters of the civilized galaxy, but somehow final victory always eluded them. For every three worlds that joined the burgeoning New Republic, one remained Imperial while another declared independence. The inertia from decades of tyranny left much of the populace unused to the responsibilities of freedom.
Nearly as troublesome as the war itself were the internal struggles and rivalries within both the Republic and the Empire. Various factions on both sides, like Borsk Fey'lya of the Republic's Provisional Council, flirted with treason to cement their own power. With a resolution of the war perhaps years away, the underworld filled the power void, with local tyrants and crime bosses holding sway. Anarchy and disorder spread across many sections of the galaxy.
This was the case until the last of the Emperor's Warlords, the feared Grand Admiral Thrawn, returned abruptly from the Unknown Regions to organize a military force.

Originally posted by Dark Journey, page 52:
The young man wore the formal black uniform of the Syndic Mitth'raw'nuroudo's Household Phalanx, and the insignia of a colonel. (emphasis mine)



They specify that the uniform is of the MHP, which is part of a foriegn military. Don't nitpick. Its just another example and proof that these men are not Imperial warriors anymore. They defected to a foriegn military.

That is not even eight, but almost TWENTY years after Palpatines final death and being cut of from the official imperial supply-line. Not to mention, that Jagged Fel could never have been an proper imperial officer under Palpatine because of his young age. Life goes on, even after an emperors death. You have no proof, that things shifted away from the empires benefit before Palpatines final death (especially if he himself tasked or was convinced by Thrawn to fortify the Unknown Regions).

Red herrings. Those uniforms are said to belong to the Galactic Empire's armed forces. When you see U.S. sailors wearing a new-style USN BDU, that doesn't mean anything. When you see men who were U.S. soldiers wearing People's Liberation Army BDUs that are said to be PLA BDUs, that's something entirely different. Your analogy is invalid.

Why? We don´t see the uniforms they wear while the emperor is still alive. And if their operations were in concert with imperial interests or Thrawn´s chiss served as vasall-troops, why shouldn´t they have gotten permission to keep their uniforms?

The ideals of the Empire do not include "dying for Thrawn" or "protecting the Chiss." And it wouldn't matter anyway, since regardless of ideology, the MHP is still a foriegn military that harbors Imperial defectors to the Rebellion and is staffed by many former Imperial soldiers.

But the official ideals of the empire included "order" and "stability". And it is easier for soldiers to follow their commander, then a far-away-emperor from another species. Do you suggest the already trained Chiss-soldiers should have started from scratch with training, rising through the ranks and wearing imperial uniforms even if they already served imperial interests as well as those of their own species? Why undergo all that trouble?

1.) I've produced evidence that Palpatine was not well or able of action or taking the throne until near the end of Thrawn's campiagn. If you wish to prove he chose to not to return to the throne and was capable, prove it. If you cannot prove that, shut up and concede.

And as shown above, there is proof to the contrary.

2.) The Emperor in DE is the same as the Emperor in ROTJ by implication and according to multiple sources. If you have good reason to disregard those canon sources (and qualitative opinion bullshit is not "good reason" to disregard canon), post such proof. Otherwise shut up and concede.

I already conceeded that point. You don´t have to ask again for it, until you weren´t able to understand it the first time.

3.) The MHP is not part of the Empire, so all your analogies are bullshit. If you'd like to demonstrate it isn't defection or desertion, post proof that the MHP is part of the Empire. Otherwise, shut up and concede.

If the MHP was never part of the empire, its members can´t defect or desert the empire. And you have no proof, that its non-chiss-members didn´t follow the orders of the reborn emperor or if they were called at all. If they weren´t called, they stayed on their posts without having defected or deserted. And according to you the empire ceased to exist after Palpatines final death or the end of this Carvius-guy from CrimsonEmpire.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I know, what i meant and you know what i meant. You just don´t like it.

This coming from one of the crowd that still wants to say Palpatine in DE wasn't the real one, and Pelleaon in Darksabre wasn't the same guy. Desertion is a high crime and an abandonment of post in one's military. Its serious and wrong. Palpatine did not commit such an act.

Since he didn´t gave his empire a working chain of sucession, yes, he is partly to blame. This is clearyl established in the DESB.

And Isard could have met with the member worlds and redrafted the Imperial Charter to create succession. Likewise with Thrawn. All of the Imperial leaders are guilty of this. And the original, true ideals of the Empire of the movies are those of the Empire. Any ideals of an Empire which evolved later IS NOT THE EMPIRE.

And i want to point at his first meeting with Luke Skywalker on Byss: "I gave them (the NR) years to claim the galaxy for themself, but without the Jedi they failed." So he could have done something, but didn´t.

How does this change the fact that he waited til he recuperated, and his servants were not dependable? How does this change that fact than none of the usurpers did anything to create succession or legality or stability? Palpatine is responsible for the Empire's collapse, but it exists as an extension of his will, and always did. There was never supposed to be a successor.

And given the fact, that we only saw small bits of an imperial military, that should have been much larger in the years between ROTJ and DE or that Zsinj managed to conquer one third of the galaxy without meeting much resistance it is safe to assume, that already then entire fleets were called to the deep core.

Care to prove "without much resistance"? That doesn't prove there were no defenses. That just as easily could've meant that the local systems and defenses surrendered.

The Deep Core contains few habitable worlds and little resources. I sincerely doubt the majority of the Imperial Navy was recalled to the Deep Core, which did not have the resources or infrastructure to support such a large force. A significant percentage of naval might, sure, but not most of the Navy/Starfleet.

And how is Palpatine at fault for recalling large amounts of naval resources a bad thing? Commanders wholesale were running off with territory and armadas and the High Command and whatever usurpers were in power at the time were incompetant. The Vizier in power betrayed the Empire for a couple planets to rule. He was totally correct in assuming there was only one man who could rule the Empire: him. And since he did much better than anyone else with Operation SHADOWHAND, I'm inclined to definitely agree with him.

They weren't to be trusted with control of the Empire--none could fight off the Rebels or competantly hold the Empire together, and he couldn't return because he was weak and vulnerable. So I don't see what other viable alternative someone in his position had.

And its up to you to prove, that he needed four or five years to recover. May i remind you, that the emperors spirit travelled from Dar Soocha (Hutt Space in the outer rim, just like Endor) to Byss after his death without the need for a host or so much time to recover (since he revealed himself shortly after)

1.) Hutt Space is not in the Outer Rim. Endor is significantly further out.

2.) Palpatine was much stronger by Dark Empire than he had been in Return of the Jedi. His power had benefited by years of recuperation and thus time to study and perfect.

3.) Palpatine's spirit also spent over a year inside Jeng Droga, which presumably weakened him considerably.

4.)

THE RETURN OF ISARD

9-10 A.B.Y.

....On Byss in the Deep Core, Emperor Palpatine's spirit finally recuperated from its difficult transition into a new clone body.

Perhaps he was capable of issuing orders for awhile before (and the fleets could've been, and in some cases likely were recalled by his servants, not himself, esp. since some recalls were while his spirit was inside Jeng Droga). But it would've been stupid given the undependability of his servants and the threat of the New Republic and Thrawn (before Palpatine had him eliminated) to reveal himself, and it was highly prudent to wait until he was recuperated from his difficult transition.

See above. He must have recalled ships long before TTT, otherwise their commanders would have turned warlord or been under the command or Thrawn, when he made his offensive.

Agreed. That doesn't mean he was ready to assume the responsibilities as Galactic Emperor yet.

And what prevents this from the forces at the Hand of Thrawn being a joint-venture that far away from the centres of imperial power? Especially, if the empire did so before (Tales of the Mos Eisley-Cantina, The story of the Davorian).

It is up to you to prove that! I've already shown its a foriegn military that shelters defectors to the Rebellion and is full of deserted Imperial officers. I'm sure Thrawn saw it that way, but his opinion is irrelvent, since his ideals are not Palpatine's, and not the Empire's. His goal was his own personal power and protecting the Chiss. The evidence weighs against you, especially since the MHP's master was eliminated by his Emperor.

At least eight years after the final death of Palpatine. Not to forget, that they sent support in the NJO, when called by the IR.

Fel defected a year or so after Endor and was soon in the MHP. His inferior rank to Parck suggests seniority by the latter to me. Parck had likely abandoned his Imperial post even earlier than Fel's defection.

The Chiss themselves say they are committed to the ideals and support expeditions against the YV. Prove they were summoned by the IR. Prove that means diddly shit, since the IR is definitely NOT the Empire.

Didn´t you read, what i wrote? I already conceeded, that he is the same guy.

It seemed to me you were saying "if I saw conclusive proof" and saying you hadn't seen any for Palpatine's continuity of existance. Nevermind then.

Of course the empire stayed united the entire five years from ROTJ and TTT and men like Harrsk, Teradoc, Zsinj, Droemmel, Ardus Kain, Grand Admiral Grunger, Grand Admiral Pitta and so on only pretended to set themself apart from the empire

Red herrings. My post was directed to DGG who used the EC quote to say that Palpatine "wanted the Empire to crumble." That's not true and that's not what it says. It says he wanted the NRDF out of position to defend the Core and out advancing on the Rim.

*snip*

Yes, I know the post-Endor desintegration was due to illegitimacy, warlordism, and incompetance. My refutation was narrow and specific to DGG's argument. See above.

That is not even eight, but almost TWENTY years after Palpatines final death and being cut of from the official imperial supply-line. Not to mention, that Jagged Fel could never have been an proper imperial officer under Palpatine because of his young age. Life goes on, even after an emperors death. You have no proof, that things shifted away from the empires benefit before Palpatines final death (especially if he himself tasked or was convinced by Thrawn to fortify the Unknown Regions).

Thrawn's mapping campiagn was during the movie-era, before Palpatine's death at Endor. Evidence exists that Palpatine was feeding Thrawn's mapping forces materiel, money, and manpower. I do not refute this.

We see the Admonitor, and support forces with Thrawn, but these are Imperial Navy forces. They're not staffed with Chiss.

My point is, that with the years going on, and the lack of an Admonitor in the NJO and VoTF, that the Imperial mapping forces were recalled in one of the many campiagns over the decade and a half. Perhaps by Palpatine's agents, to the Deep Core. Perhaps by Isard, along with the Black Sword Command recalls. Perhaps by Thrawn himself, to supplement his critical shortcoming of ships for the upcoming campiagns. Perhaps by Palpatine during Operation SHADOWHAND (all of the Empire was said to be reunited).

All that we see left is a Chiss phalanx staffed by whatever Imperial officers Thrawn apparently convinced to defect. Joint-efforts, training efforts--these are done, but one is still a member of their original military organization.

The NEGTC refers to the establishment of the Hand of Thrawn seperately from the Admonitor and her mapping campiagns (and that is all, mapping--only the Chiss are referred to as fighting off enemies).

I believe the MHP is just that, a Chiss phalanx. The fact that one of its generals is a defector to the Rebellion from the Imperial Fighter Corps, suggests to me that it is not an Imperial recognized or approved endeavour. I think the lack of the mapping forces point that they were recalled. Only the defectors remained with the Chiss military.

Why? We don´t see the uniforms they wear while the emperor is still alive.

So defecting from the Imperial Remnant is so much better than defecting from the Empire? If the Empire loves this foriegn military and its a "joint effort", why were traitors among her ranks?

And if their operations were in concert with imperial interests or Thrawn´s chiss served as vasall-troops, why shouldn´t they have gotten permission to keep their uniforms?

I'm not going to knock down these assumptions. Look, I've already proved it is an organization which is staffed by traitors to the Empire while the Emperor is still alive. I've pointed out that the fighting against enemies is described as a Chiss problem, and that all the Admonitor (curiously no fleets are mentioned, just this ISD, and presumably that means her support forces as well) was just mapping, and is later absent. Since Thrawn badly needed ships, and since there were multiple Imperial recalls between Endor and Palpatine's final death, that any joint effort ended then.

But the official ideals of the empire included "order" and "stability". And it is easier for soldiers to follow their commander, then a far-away-emperor from another species.

So who cares if they shared some ideals? They still made Imperials swear allegiance to Thrawn specifically and put them in new uniforms after the mapping forces withdrew, serving alongside traitors to the Empire.

Do you suggest the already trained Chiss-soldiers should have started from scratch with training, rising through the ranks and wearing imperial uniforms even if they already served imperial interests as well as those of their own species? Why undergo all that trouble?

You've answered your own question. Don't go through the trouble because the MHP is part of the Chiss military and answers to its Syndic (they even address him as such!), exactly as one would expect from a Chiss military protocol.

They're not the mapping forces. They're not Imperial.

And as shown above, there is proof to the contrary.

Issuing orders does not make it safe or prudent to reveal oneself to the galaxy. I again posted proof he hadn't recuperated until after Thrawn's death. The most logical conclusion is Palpatine didn't reassume the throne because it was dangerous and stupid to do so before, and possibly he wasn't even able.

Concession Accepted.

He evidently didn't feel he could assume the throne until he was done recuperating.

2.) The Emperor in DE is the same as the Emperor in ROTJ by implication and according to multiple sources. If you have good reason to disregard those canon sources (and qualitative opinion bullshit is not "good reason" to disregard canon), post such proof. Otherwise shut up and concede.

If the MHP was never part of the empire, its members can´t defect or desert the empire. And you have no proof, that its non-chiss-members didn´t follow the orders of the reborn emperor or if they were called at all.

Its called inductive logic. I find it telling that an Admiral in the MHP outranked someone who joined it a year or two after Endor. This would suggest they joined the MHP before Palpatine's return. The mapping Imperials are gone, leaving only these MHP officers which include a defector to the Rebellion. Its nothing in bold-face print, but it indicates quite clearly to me that they're deserters.

Why does this bother you so much? At least one of the two officers, Parck and Fel, is a defector to the Rebellion! What's so repulsive about following the evidence and logic to the conclusion that they abandoned the Empire to join a foriegn military? I'm not suggesting everyone involved with Thrawn was a traitor. I think almost certainly all the mapping forces returned to the Empire and fought as Imperials.

If they weren´t called, they stayed on their posts without having defected or deserted. And according to you the empire ceased to exist after Palpatines final death or the end of this Carvius-guy from CrimsonEmpire.

Fel's a traitor to the Empire. There's no refuting that fact.

Parck outranks him despite his joining only a couple years after Endor and several years before Operation SHADOWHAND. By extension, he must've joined up earlier (jumping ship from the mapping forces, likely following Palpatine's death at Endor). He stays along, even though the mapping forces and the Admonitor are no where to be seen.

Therefore, I believe he left the Empire and joined the MHP before Palpatine's return, and that he didn't return with the mapping forces (seperate from the MHP).

[consequences]

By your argument, the Emperor is the Empire. Therefore, as soon as he died, so did the Empire, and Fel betrayed nothing. Likewise, we have no proof that Thrawn or any of the Unknown Regions contingent even heard of the Emperor's rebirth before he became dead again.

[YT300000]

By your argument, the Emperor is the Empire. Therefore, as soon as he died, so did the Empire, and Fel betrayed nothing. Likewise, we have no proof that Thrawn or any of the Unknown Regions contingent even heard of the Emperor's rebirth before he became dead again.

Many people on this board would agree that the Empire died with the Emperor, and that the Imperial Remnant is not the Empire.

[Illuminatus Primus]

By your argument, the Emperor is the Empire. Therefore, as soon as he died, so did the Empire, and Fel betrayed nothing. Likewise, we have no proof that Thrawn or any of the Unknown Regions contingent even heard of the Emperor's rebirth before he became dead again.

The Empire exists so long as there is a continuous line of succession. The Empire's purpose and ideals are dependent on Palpatine, but the Empire didn't end until the death of Interim Ruling Council Chairman Xandel Carivus.

And like I said, they still apparently left the posts in the Empire and joined a foriegn military before the Empire ended. And Fel still defected to the Rebellion.

[consequences]

Did the Emperor specificly state that Xandel Carivus was his successor?

[Illuminatus Primus]

You don't get it.

There was some sort of surviving central Imperial authority from the Emperor's coronation to the death of Chairman Carivus, regardless of legality or legitimacy.

The Empire ceased to exist as a state after Carivus' death, because there was no central Empire at all anymore. There was no governing authority. Only warlords and self-ruling fortress worlds.