A mechanism for Slave-1 Seismic Charges

[beyond hope]

I don't think the visuals would support it. I watched again this afternoon: there's a bright flash, followed by the formation of a ghostly blue spherical fireball which stops at a set distance. The fireball coalesces (sp?) into a toroid, flattens, then there's a second intense flash at the center and the fire ring expands outward.

[Howedar]

As Howedar said, a forcefield is probably involved, to contain and then flatten the initial explosion after detonation.

One must wonder what would happen if these force-fields were not active, allowing for a spherical explosion. Boy, Obi-Wan sure would've been screwed then!

So would Jango Fett.

[Slartibartfast]

It's a thingamajig.

[beyond hope]

It's a thingamajig.

no, dammit, it's a whatchamacallit!!!

[Sriad]

I don't think the visuals would support it. I watched again this afternoon: there's a bright flash, followed by the formation of a ghostly blue spherical fireball which stops at a set distance. The fireball coalesces (sp?) into a toroid, flattens, then there's a second intense flash at the center and the fire ring expands outward.

Well, there's probably some way I could explain my theory around that, but in general, darn. Can't win 'em all.

[Captain Cyran]

I don't think the visuals would support it. I watched again this afternoon: there's a bright flash, followed by the formation of a ghostly blue spherical fireball which stops at a set distance. The fireball coalesces (sp?) into a toroid, flattens, then there's a second intense flash at the center and the fire ring expands outward.

Were you watching it on DVD frame by frame? I don't think you were, because that's not entirely true, there are two flashes one right after another before the formation of the ghostly blue sphere. Does anyone know what that could mean?

[beyond hope]

I don't think the visuals would support it. I watched again this afternoon: there's a bright flash, followed by the formation of a ghostly blue spherical fireball which stops at a set distance. The fireball coalesces (sp?) into a toroid, flattens, then there's a second intense flash at the center and the fire ring expands outward.

Were you watching it on DVD frame by frame? I don't think you were, because that's not entirely true, there are two flashes one right after another before the formation of the ghostly blue sphere. Does anyone know what that could mean?

You're right, I had it on 1/8th speed and didn't pick up on that.

I've no idea what that means, aside from that the VFX crew needs to be clobbered with a physics book.

[Ender]

I was thinkin' maybe they're discs of some supersciencey material that're spun until they reach whatever energy level is needed, then a charge in the center of the disc is detonated, and we get the nifty radial devestation effect as shown in AOTC. Whaddayah think?

I think the idea of using force fields to direct the blast is far more realiztic then your vague, and frankly crack addled explanation.

That or the explosion is spherical and the rings are just isotropic.

Right. Using force fields to shape radial explosions in a starship conflict would be way more realistic than using explosives to shape radial explosions in a starship conflict. What was I thinking?

Oh look, you changed tour stance when I pointed out it was bullshit!

I don't have a clue.

Dude, normally I have some respect for you, but in this case you aren't even reading what I'm posting. So I'll say this as simply as I possibly can.

Explosives don't matter. They're completely tangental.
What is happening, I'm saying, is this: You have a disk. You spin the disk until centripital acceleration tears it apart. When this happens, the shrapnel doesn't fly all over, up down and backwards. It still has exactly the same momentum as before, but now instead of a disk of [material X] it's a disk of highly energetic particles expanding radially.

Oh look, its back!

Okay?

Yeah, If I had never watched the scene and your idea didn't violate occam's razor to shit I might agree to that.

So to you, the idea of a mystery "supersciency" thing that spins real fast and is released makes more sense then using a forcefield to shape an explosion.

[Sriad]

So to you, the idea of a mystery "supersciency" thing that spins real fast and is released makes more sense then using a forcefield to shape an explosion.

I've admitted that on-screen evidence doesn't support my theory, but this calls for a response.

Okay folks, let's vote: what's more pseudo-science: force fields or rotational inertia? Exactly.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Just let it go...

[Slartibartfast]

It's obvious that this thing isn't an explosion. It's some sort of emitted energy, plasma or whateve. There's no point in "shaping" it when you could simply emit it on a single plane. Kind of having a 360º camera, but with a shockwave effect.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'd like to point out something Mike mentioned on his AOTC technology page:

This weapon is obviously not a conventional or nuclear explosive. It does not have a normal explosive effect, and it does not need to be buried inside an asteroid in order to fragment it. Its shockwave is planar, and the expanding planar disc appears to slice asteroids cleanly at the point of contact, while simultaneously imparting significant velocity to the resulting fragments in a direction perpendicular to the plane. It cannot be a conventional explosive device, but it may be an unusual application of forcefield technology. Note that rock fragments thrown away by the interaction are not heated to luminescence, nor do they show any other signs of heating. In fact, the rock appears to fracture in a brittle fashion.

Whatever we're seeing, its clear its some sort of forcefield effect that is projected outward and fragments objects without imparting significant energy to do so (hence the lack of heating.)

Edit: I should correct my statement. The charge DOES impart a measure of energy (IE velocity to debris perpendicular to the planar disc), but that it does so without heating. In fact, were this cutting disc composed of some sort of energetic effect, we should see some indication of heating occuring, which we clearly do not.

[Utsanomiko]

I've admitted that on-screen evidence doesn't support my theory

Then it aint a theory. 'Delusion' might be the term you're looking for.

Okay folks, let's vote: what's more pseudo-science: force fields or rotational inertia? Exactly.

I'm sorry, but I prefer salmon over Red Herring.

[Connor MacLeod]

So to you, the idea of a mystery "supersciency" thing that spins real fast and is released makes more sense then using a forcefield to shape an explosion.

I've admitted that on-screen evidence doesn't support my theory, but this calls for a response.

Okay folks, let's vote: what's more pseudo-science: force fields or rotational inertia? Exactly.

rotational inertia isn't pseudoscience insofar as I am aware of, but your application of it is no more impractical than simple forcefield tech. In fact, your theory is the more complex of the two (Ever hear of Occam's Razor?)

[Durandal]

Dude, normally I have some respect for you, but in this case you aren't even reading what I'm posting. So I'll say this as simply as I possibly can.

Explosives don't matter. They're completely tangental.
What is happening, I'm saying, is this: You have a disk. You spin the disk until centripital acceleration tears it apart. When this happens, the shrapnel doesn't fly all over, up down and backwards. It still has exactly the same momentum as before, but now instead of a disk of [material X] it's a disk of highly energetic particles expanding radially.

And yet, for some reason, the expansion shows no decrease in density as it expands outward. Do you have any idea how ludicrously dense this material would have to be? The energy released is on the order f 12 gigatons. That means that this disk has 12 gigatons of rotational kinetic energy. What, does the thing have a small powerplant inside it as well?

The particles would have to be insanely massive to have so much kinetic energy and yet be moving visibly, nevermind the fact that they'd gain so much energy that they'd probably just start forming new, massive particles.

Let's also not forget that your theory predicts that we should see heating effects, which were not observed. Any theory dealing with an explosion or thermal release is automatically invalidated because the expansion seemed to be concentrated force with no thermal energy.

Okay?
Obviously this requires some tinkering to guarantee that the disk breaks all over at the same time, instead of in just one or two places. That's the only aspect of what I'm suggesting that involves pseudo science.

No, the whole explanation is pseudoscience. You attribute the phenomenon to a "supersciency" material spinning at presumably relativistic velocities, which you then treat as if you can apply Newtonian mechanics to. I'm sorry, but when you use the term "supersciency" with seriousness, don't expect me to take you seriously.

You also ignore the lack of heating effects and the constancy of the expansion's velocity, which was completely unperturbed when it smashed into an asteroid and tore it apart.

[Connor MacLeod]

In fact...

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Ess ... nBugs.html

If we're going to grant ourselves the ability to focus and manipulate forcefields to such a fine degree, why not use electromagnetism instead? If you could generate a negatively charged plane wall, even with a tiny fraction of the total charge bound up in a typical starship's mass, it would cleanly slice any solid object in half. Similarly, gravitic "shields" are a silly idea; even the gravity field of an entire planet or star will only decelerate incoming objects at a few G, but if we could make a negatively charged "bubble" around a starship, incoming missiles would crash into it just as if it were a solid object. And even artificial gravity need not be based on actual gravity; the rotating-ship concept uses simple kinematics, and our imaginary sci-fi race with fine control over electromagnetism could slightly polarize objects in order to make them respond more strongly to magnetic fields (believe it or not, electrically neutral atoms or even neutrons have tiny magnetic moments which can be used in order to confine them electromagnetically; see Wolfgang Paul's Nobel Lecture of December 8, 1989).

I dont think we're neccesarily seeing an electromagnetic field doing this in AOTC, but it does show forcefield tech isnt necceasrily technobabble either. (it could be the seismic charge is an application of repulsor/tractor beam or even of deflector shield technology.)

[Durandal]

I've admitted that on-screen evidence doesn't support my theory, but this calls for a response.

Then your theory is invalid. You lose.

Okay folks, let's vote: what's more pseudo-science: force fields or rotational inertia? Exactly.

Neither. But which is more pseudoscientific? "Supersciency materials" or force fields?

Force fields exist. Case closed.

[Durandal]

Let me take this opportunity to make something clear.

FORCE FIELDS EXIST IN REAL LIFE. THEY ARE NOT THOSE STUPID THINGS ON STAR TREK. I WILL GIVE SOMEONE A MILLION POINTS IF HE CAN NAME THE FORCE FIELD THAT IS HOLDING HIS ASS TO HIS CHAIR.

Any explanation involving force fields makes good predictions because we know the characteristics of force fields in real life. Why do you think I wanted to describe shields as force fields rather than some mystical barrier? Because the former tells us a lot more!

[Illuminatus Primus]

Oooh Oooh Oooh *jumps, raises hand*



GRAVITY

[Durandal]

Congrats, you've earned a million points, redeemable at your local community college for one basic Newtonian kinematics course.

[Connor MacLeod]

Congrats, you've earned a million points, redeemable at your local community college for one basic Newtonian kinematics course.

Oh sure, just waste the points like that

[Sriad]

Let me take this opportunity to make something clear.

FORCE FIELDS EXIST IN REAL LIFE. THEY ARE NOT THOSE STUPID THINGS ON STAR TREK. I WILL GIVE SOMEONE A MILLION POINTS IF HE CAN NAME THE FORCE FIELD THAT IS HOLDING HIS ASS TO HIS CHAIR.

Yea, gravity. Whoop. And what does it take to produce the ~700 N of force holding my ass to my chair? Nothing much, only 5.97 × 10^24 kilograms of dirt. It should be trivial to reduce that to a disk about a meter across.

Superscience is explicit in my theory (fine, since I've admited that on-screen evidence doesn't support it[or flat out contridicts it; I didn't remember any specific speed for the disk when I made the OP], my delusion. ) but it is implicit in any theory that suggests the use of force fields.

So nyah.

Edit: Not to mention that Gravity produces a field towards the generator. To get effects like those on screen we'd need to be using exotic matter.

[Howedar]

Can't understand when we've lost, can we?

Are you suggesting that Slave 1 was literally carrying the mass of a few planets in back?

That means almost arbitrarily powerful engines, you realize. Besides which, an earth mass inside one of those mines could very well fall inside the Swartzchild radius.

And in fact it does. Earth is .000003 times as massive as the Sun. By R = 3 km ´ M / M(Sun), according to this page, Earth's Swartzchild radius is 9 meters.

So Slave 1 is in fact carrying around a dozen black holes.



This just gets better and better doesn't it?

[Ender]

So to you, the idea of a mystery "supersciency" thing that spins real fast and is released makes more sense then using a forcefield to shape an explosion.

I've admitted that on-screen evidence doesn't support my theory, but this calls for a response.

Then shut the fuck up, Concession accepted.

Okay folks, let's vote: what's more pseudo-science: force fields or rotational inertia? Exactly.

Shaped explosives or a mystery material? Exactly. Suck it down bitch.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Jesus, why can't he accept that he's lost?

Admitting you were wrong doesn't make you look like an idiot. Doing this kind of junk does...