Moderator: Vympel
Psh!2000AD wrote:Also compare catchphrases:
Impossible is what Rogues do best
to
Nice place. What do we blow up first?
THat was an off the wall speculation theory proposed by Loran at one obscure point, and never again pursued by Allston. Stackpole went through on that one.Knife wrote:It was reveled in the Wraith series that she was a clone. I always hate it when the find a BS way to bring back a villian. I didn't like it when Palpy returned and I didn't like it when they resurected Issard. My opinion, but thats what this thread is, isn't it.Excuse me? That was a Rogue Squadron plot, Not Wraith
It carried Four TIE Fighters at first, which is hardly a Squadron, and when they loaded in the X wings they stacked them practically one on top of the other with S Foils closed, thats a tight fit but wholly possible the way Allston explains it.A supposedly ~150 meter ship capable of carring a squad of snub fighters is dumb. To make it work, you have to say that there is a larger ship out there that looks exactly like a Corellian Corvette but isn't. And yes, they should have captured (if they wished to use a cannon starship) a larger vessel to use as a mobile base of operations. They should have gotten Rebulic Intell or Spec Ops to help them capture a larger vessel. But then they'd need to have support teams to run it.
Oh, and thanks for reminding me about Piggy. I disliked this premace too.
Is not, Issard Revenge, part of the Wraith Squadron series. I was not specifically talking about the authors as to the actual series. Yes, Stackpole expanded on the Issard clone concept and for that, I dislike him.THat was an off the wall speculation theory proposed by Loran at one obscure point, and never again pursued by Allston. Stackpole went through on that one.
And leaves litterly squat left for the crew, ship systems, support equipment, or practicly anything else. It was a horrible idea. Totally fanboyism. If the Night Caller was a empty shell, you could fit those ships in it, unfortunately you also need alot of other shit in there for the vessel to be a space ship.It carried Four TIE Fighters at first, which is hardly a Squadron, and when they loaded in the X wings they stacked them practically one on top of the other with S Foils closed, thats a tight fit but wholly possible the way Allston explains it.
So you're Accusing Allston of the Fanboyism of being able to cram snubfighters into a cramped cargo bay but you overlook the Fanboyism of Stackpole's Starfighters vs. Capital ships and the Self-Modeled character of corran Horn? Spare me.And leaves litterly squat left for the crew, ship systems, support equipment, or practicly anything else. It was a horrible idea. Totally fanboyism. If the Night Caller was a empty shell, you could fit those ships in it, unfortunately you also need alot of other shit in there for the vessel to be a space ship.
I would have perfered if they would have created a different vessel for the plot or use a larger cannon ship.
NO, not just cramming them into a cargo bay, fitting a squadron of X wings into the frame of a Corellian Corvette would take up almost all of the internal volume leaving little for the fighters support equipment, actual space for the crew, and the ships systems and equipment.So you're Accusing Allston of the Fanboyism of being able to cram snubfighters into a cramped cargo bay but you overlook the Fanboyism of Stackpole's Starfighters vs. Capital ships and the Self-Modeled character of corran Horn? Spare me.
Which book? The whole "clone" bit didn't really develop until Isard's Revenge (stackpole novel) - though if I recall "Mandatory Retirement" Stackpole might have hinted at it (MR was one of the Rogue Squadron comics.)Knife wrote: It was reveled in the Wraith series that she was a clone. I always hate it when the find a BS way to bring back a villian. I didn't like it when Palpy returned and I didn't like it when they resurected Issard. My opinion, but thats what this thread is, isn't it.
INFIDEL! YOU SHALL NOT DEBASE THE GLORY THAT IS KETTCH!Hmm, while I did dislike the Ewok, yub yub shit, the interactions between Wedge and Janson were good. I'll agree with you there.
Stackpole wrote that X-wings have kilojoule range lasers and virtually glorified the X-wing game-style fighter combat style. Much worse.A supposedly ~150 meter ship capable of carring a squad of snub fighters is dumb. To make it work, you have to say that there is a larger ship out there that looks exactly like a Corellian Corvette but isn't. And yes, they should have captured (if they wished to use a cannon starship) a larger vessel to use as a mobile base of operations. They should have gotten Rebulic Intell or Spec Ops to help them capture a larger vessel. But then they'd need to have support teams to run it.
Piggy was rather original.Oh, and thanks for reminding me about Piggy. I disliked this premace too.
Its repetitive, from Corran's "dispensing homespun wisdom to lessers", to "Corran being corrected for personality flaws." to "Corran being brought from the brink of death umpteen million times."Matter of opinion, I suppose. I feel pretty much the exact opposite.
EU novels as a rule aren't generally known for their brilliant tactics or technical accuracy as a rule. Besides the Allston Night Caller is STILL insignificant next to Stackpole's "kilojoule range fighter lasers.". AndKnife wrote: NO, not just cramming them into a cargo bay, fitting a squadron of X wings into the frame of a Corellian Corvette would take up almost all of the internal volume leaving little for the fighters support equipment, actual space for the crew, and the ships systems and equipment.
The only way for the NightCaller to work is to encrease the scale and thereby the volume, and have it be another class of ship that looks alot like a Corellian Corvette.
I've already said that I didn't like the fact that Rouge Squadron could take on Cap ships so bringing it up again as if it were still relevant is bullshit.
Connor MacLeod wrote:As opposed to Corran "I'm not really dead yet" Horn?Knife wrote:I perfered Rouge over Wraith. Wraith just got too uber with me with the A-team impersonation. The 'Iron Fist' was a good one though but I still perfer the original series.
At least some Wraiths DIED
I have yet to say that the Rouge series is the best thing since sliced bread. I just perfer them to the Wraith series. Jeez. Each has its problems, and honestly I have read way better books then them. I can concede that to a certain extent the earlier Allston novels had some real problems (repeating the "X-wing fighter mentality" is one of them) as well as the Night Caller, but Allston, unlike Stackpole, actually improved. Check out the Rebel Stand/Rebel Dream duology. Its superior to Stackpole's NJO duology in almost every conceivable way (Except for the Lord Nyax bullshit.)Knife wrote:Connor MacLeod wrote:As opposed to Corran "I'm not really dead yet" Horn?Knife wrote:I perfered Rouge over Wraith. Wraith just got too uber with me with the A-team impersonation. The 'Iron Fist' was a good one though but I still perfer the original series.
At least some Wraiths DIED
I might be wrong, but wasn't Issards revenge inside the whole Wraith squadron story arc. I really wasn't comparing individual authors as much as I was the first four books to the last four or five (forgot how many were in the series at the moment) as I think I already mentioned somewhere in the thread.Which book? The whole "clone" bit didn't really develop until Isard's Revenge (stackpole novel) - though if I recall "Mandatory Retirement" Stackpole might have hinted at it (MR was one of the Rogue Squadron comics.)
It was dumb, IMO, and the same premace that gave you the Ewok pilot is the same premace that gives you Piggy. Might as well throw a Kowakian Monkey Lizard in the cockpit as well.INFIDEL! YOU SHALL NOT DEBASE THE GLORY THAT IS KETTCH!
Once again, saying that 'X' sucked doesn't negate the fact that the whole NightCaller thing sucked balls. It more or less ruined that portion of the story. It can't work, it's not possible, then it's a key factor in alot of their operations. It ruined it for me.Stackpole wrote that X-wings have kilojoule range lasers and virtually glorified the X-wing game-style fighter combat style. Much worse.
Corran was a cookie cutter character, really a mesh of Han and Luke, but I still perfer it to A-Team in S-P-A-C-E. *cue music*Its repetitive, from Corran's "dispensing homespun wisdom to lessers", to "Corran being corrected for personality flaws." to "Corran being brought from the brink of death umpteen million times."
Actually, I haven't read any SW EU since the 'Black Fleet Crisis'. I have not read the NJO or much of the Prequel novels, with 'Shatterpoint' being the exception. And I disliked 'Shatterpoint'.Connor MacLeod wrote:
I can concede that to a certain extent the earlier Allston novels had some real problems (repeating the "X-wing fighter mentality" is one of them) as well as the Night Caller, but Allston, unlike Stackpole, actually improved. Check out the Rebel Stand/Rebel Dream duology. Its superior to Stackpole's NJO duology in almost every conceivable way (Except for the Lord Nyax bullshit.)
I don't recall this being a well known fact or even evidence. I would think a clone of Isard, were it such common knowledge that washed-out pilots knew, would be something the NR would try to investigate or stop. Yet the possibility of a clone never occured to them in Isard's revenge.Knife wrote: I might be wrong, but wasn't Issards revenge inside the whole Wraith squadron story arc. I really wasn't comparing individual authors as much as I was the first four books to the last four or five (forgot how many were in the series at the moment) as I think I already mentioned somewhere in the thread.
Dumb how? ITs a rather unique concept. Although the "Ewok pilot" thing was supposed to be a joke initially. Finding out it was real was a nice twist.It was dumb, IMO, and the same premace that gave you the Ewok pilot is the same premace that gives you Piggy. Might as well throw a Kowakian Monkey Lizard in the cockpit as well.
So what about the so called Nebulon B frigate which canon proves could not carry two fighter squadrons? Its not like Allston is solely guitly of such errors. On top of that, the Corvette inconsistency can be more easily reconciled (nothing I recall indicated the Night Caller was actually 150 meters long, and what they achieved in fact suggests it was a different, larger model of Corellian Corvette, not a 150 meter model.)Once again, saying that 'X' sucked doesn't negate the fact that the whole NightCaller thing sucked balls.
Again, how? As I recall they do not state the size of the ship at all.It more or less ruined that portion of the story. It can't work, it's not possible, then it's a key factor in alot of their operations. It ruined it for me.
Noone on the A-Team died as I recall. Wraith squadron members died rather regularly. More than died in Rogue Squadron typically.Corran was a cookie cutter character, really a mesh of Han and Luke, but I still perfer it to A-Team in S-P-A-C-E. *cue music*
I didn't like the idea of a (what ?) semi sentient being operating a starfighter. Granted the Ewok was a joke, but the premace was dumb. Piggy is just an extension of it, a super intellegent Gammorean? WTF.Dumb how? ITs a rather unique concept. Although the "Ewok pilot" thing was supposed to be a joke initially. Finding out it was real was a nice twist.
As for the NightCaller, the book cover has a pic of a Corellian Corvette on it and the descriptions either describe one or leeds the reader to believing that it is a Corellian Corvette.So what about the so called Nebulon B frigate which canon proves could not carry two fighter squadrons? Its not like Allston is solely guitly of such errors. On top of that, the Corvette inconsistency can be more easily reconciled (nothing I recall indicated the Night Caller was actually 150 meters long, and what they achieved in fact suggests it was a different, larger model of Corellian Corvette, not a 150 meter model.)
Actually, I hate the fighter carring capability of the Nebulon and disreguard it as gibberish. As far as cannon is concerned, I believe (and correct me if I am wrong) the durring RotJ you get views from both the starboard and port angle and I never saw a hangar or hangar door to prove that there is a hangar there. But thats another topic for another day.
Errg. They both have inconsistancies. I dislike the Nightcaller more because it is a central part of the story arc and a major piece of equipment rather than a fucked up weapons statistic.It is a far more minor error, and far more easily reconciled, than suggesting that laser cannons aren't much more powerful than a modern assault rifle. Or that a large land vehicle can disable the full shielding of a large military starfighter.
Err Kaz, the Wraiths came back in the NJO. They were also written by Aaron in those two books.Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:I'd Wraith Squadron's apparent total disappearance after Solo Command from continuity is a good idea.
They were IMHO some of the better built and 3D characters in the whole of SW (not counting the main ones.) It'd be nice to see them again.
On the other hand, by the time of Solo Command, most of them had the problems that brought them together solved. Either that or they are dead. Thus some of the "depth" that went in with the humor is gone.
In addition, they are very hard characters to "take over." I mean, sure, if Allston continued to write about them, he might do a good job. But if those characters fall into the hands of another writer (not even an inferior writer, just one with a significant different style,) the Wraiths would come out REALLY distorted.
Even if Allston took over after many years (say NJO era,) the squadron's makeup would be totally different. They might be called Wraith Squadron, but they plain ain't. Is a Wraith Squadron without Face Loran and company really worth sustaining? Could it be better to just let it die, and if really need be, introduce a new squadron?
So personally, my only regret is that perhaps they could have one final blaze of glory in Starfighters of Adumar. Perhaps they were the supporting Intelligence unit or something. Rogues and Wraiths together for the final time in the series.
It's the other way round. Ketch is a joke based off of Piggy. While Janson made the origional "the next pilot is an Ewok" joke before Piggy came in, the main Ketch joke, that Ketch is an Ewok pilot, is based off of Piggy's background. Also, just what is so umb about genetically modifying and training animals to be smarter than they are naturally? As Piggy says they'd be pretty good for espionage purposes as no one would suspect them.Knife wrote: I didn't like the idea of a (what ?) semi sentient being operating a starfighter. Granted the Ewok was a joke, but the premace was dumb. Piggy is just an extension of it, a super intellegent Gammorean? WTF.
Since the book cover is most likely a pic of the attack on Fondor (A-wings and training trench turrets) that corvette is unlikely to be the Nightcaller, as Nightcallers task was not to attack the base but to lay the mines and investigate any signals from the mines.knife wrote:
As for the NightCaller, the book cover has a pic of a Corellian Corvette on it and the descriptions either describe one or leeds the reader to believing that it is a Corellian Corvette.
So as I have said before, it is either a fan boy abortion or one has to imagine a different class that is a scaled up Corvette which is also dumb.
IIRC the theory put forward by Face in Iron FIst was ot that isaard had been cloned, but that Isaard had survived. Wedge asked him to put the theory down on "paper" and he'd put it in a report to NRI to see if there was anythng too it.Connor MacLeod wrote: I don't recall this being a well known fact or even evidence. I would think a clone of Isard, were it such common knowledge that washed-out pilots knew, would be something the NR would try to investigate or stop. Yet the possibility of a clone never occured to them in Isard's revenge.
In a couple of books Rogues die but Stackpole allways kills the ones that he hardly gives time to. You can tell who'll die in one of his X-Wing books just by the amount of time they have.Connor MacLeod wrote: Noone on the A-Team died as I recall. Wraith squadron members died rather regularly. More than died in Rogue Squadron typically.
.Connor MacLeod wrote:[
Dumb how? ITs a rather unique concept. Although the "Ewok pilot" thing was supposed to be a joke initially. Finding out it was real was a nice twist.
, still they're not my favourite.