NR Fleets

[His Divine Shadow]

The NR is always portrayed as a Fighter-reliant force, with crack fighter pilots in shielded fighters, going against the Imperials relying on huge ships with unshielded fighters - and winning, just mirroring carriers versus battleships in our world.

Quite unrealistic, in space the things that give carriers an and fighters the advantage are gone, the battleship is the true ruler of space.

[His Divine Shadow]

That's fine and dandy for KDY-scale destroyers, but what about when you're facing 3 km cruisers? 5 km battlecruisers? 8 km battleships?

You die in a fire of rightous imperial wrath?

[His Divine Shadow]

Anyway, I think the reasons for the NR fleet being layed out as it was in the BFC was because it was going to be more of a policing force than a military, and the NR was decimated at the time and pacifism seemed to be on the rise also.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Exactly why the New Class was discarded.

The idea of multiuse spaceframes was dumb as well.

[His Divine Shadow]

The idea of multiuse spaceframes was dumb as well.

You dissing ISD's?

[Illuminatus Primus]

The idea of multiuse spaceframes was dumb as well.

You dissing ISD's?

Multiuse spacecraft is different than taking a heavy destroyer hull and making it into a fleet carrier (Endurance and Defender).

[PainRack]

I don't even think the NRDF has an OOB at times.

Kube website FAQ stated that the reason why the Fifth Fleet was so special, was because the NR was standarising the Fleet deployment of warship assets. The multitude of ragged ships designs that served the Rebellion were being phased out in favour of proper, linear warships like Belarius class cruisers, Republic class destroyers, etc etc etc

Indeed, we see a continuation of this effect happening later on in the Centrepoint Crisis, where a majority of the Fleet ship assets were being refitted with the new/standarised ship types.

It seems to me that the New Class, and the subsequent reorganisation of the Republic forces would have neccesitated an OOB.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The New Class seemed to have failed the NRDF after the Black Fleet crisis. It appears to be discontinued thereafter.

[Ender]

The New Class seemed to have failed the NRDF after the Black Fleet crisis. It appears to be discontinued thereafter.

You base this off what exactly? BFC was the only time we ever saw a good hard look at the NR fleet, and all NJO indroduced ships have been of classes where the New class series lacked them. They have new ships to fill old roles, but no evidence they discontinued the New class or that it was considered a failure

[Ender]

The idea of multiuse spaceframes was dumb as well.

We do it in real life, what makes it so stupid for SW?

[Ender]

Incidently, I am still working on my response to our discussion of this. I've been delayed boh due to the fact that without a specified time period its a huge subject and due to the shit hitting the fan IRL

[Illuminatus Primus]

Well, you don't see a problem with using similar spaceframes for an fleet carrier and a heavy destroyer?

And if the New Class was truly successful, and they went to all the trouble of R&D, financing production, etc. and yet its quite absent in the post-BFC and esp. NJO eras...why? I think the New Class was generally discontinued and more big ships were commissioned, like the Mediator-class Battlecruiser and the Viscount-class Star Defender, albeit they hadn't been introduced long when the Vong arrived (in Vector Prime they comment on the youth of the Viscount-class, I believe).

[Ender]

Well, you don't see a problem with using similar spaceframes for an fleet carrier and a heavy destroyer?

No more then I see turning a strategic WMD platform into an fast attack bombardment platform.

And if the New Class was truly successful, and they went to all the trouble of R&D, financing production, etc. and yet its quite absent in the post-BFC and esp. NJO eras...why?

And what evidence do you have that it is absent? As I said above, the only new ships we have seen have been in roles the New class didn't fulfill and we have not been given an indepth look at the military since the BFC novels.

[Illuminatus Primus]

No more then I see turning a strategic WMD platform into an fast attack bombardment platform.

Are you saying a spaceframe uniquely suited for carrying massive loads of starfighters and supporting cargoes will be just as well suited to a more agile engine system, and appropriate structure to absorb and disperse the recoil from GT-recoil guns?

Sorry, but you don't just rip-off the hangars and staple heavy turbolasers on.

And what evidence do you have that it is absent? As I said above, the only new ships we have seen have been in roles the New class didn't fulfill and we have not been given an indepth look at the military since the BFC novels.

That's really cute way of Shifting the Burden of Proof, but someone please point to the Agave-class Pickets, the Warrior-class Gunships, the Sacheen-class Light escorts, the Hajen-class Fleet tenders, the Majestic-class Heavy Cruisers, the Defender-class Assault carriers, the Nebula (Defender)-class Star destroyers, or the Endurance-class Fleet carriers seen since the Black Fleet Crisis. I'd also like to see the K-Wings and Defender Starfighters.

Rather, Bothan Assault Cruisers, Mediator-class Battlecruisers, Viscount- and Strident-class Star Defenders, new X-Wings and E-Wings, and new Star Destroyers are the NRDF's investments. As evidenced by the anti-large ship doctrine espoused around the time of the BFC, and the whole purpose of the New Class being to phase out the exact kind of older fleets we see in the NJO, I believe the NRDF decided to invest in a small cache of big ships as heavy hitters supporting a large constellation of smaller, older vessels after the ineffectiveness of the New Class was grasped in combat against an inferior enemy like the Yevetha. The New Class ships are no where to be seen.

Cracken's Threat Dossier claims only 10 Defender-class SDs are built, and only one additional one per year for the rest of the New Class's run. Doesn't sound like the New Class was slated to replace the old fleet models to me. Doesn't sound like it really revamped the NRDF as intended. Sounds more like they bought a handful piecemeal to justify the R&D costs of an unsuccessful project, as evidenced by the Black Fleet Crisis herself.

[Ender]

No more then I see turning a strategic WMD platform into an fast attack bombardment platform.

Are you saying a spaceframe uniquely suited for carrying massive loads of starfighters and supporting cargoes will be just as well suited to a more agile engine system, and appropriate structure to absorb and disperse the recoil from GT-recoil guns?

Sorry, but you don't just rip-off the hangars and staple heavy turbolasers on.

When they design destroyers so that they already carry massive loads of fighters, yes it really is that easy. I chose my example for a reason, its essentially what they are doing.

And what evidence do you have that it is absent? As I said above, the only new ships we have seen have been in roles the New class didn't fulfill and we have not been given an indepth look at the military since the BFC novels.

That's really cute way of Shifting the Burden of Proof,

You are making the claim, not me, therefore you must provide the backing. No shifting involved.

but someone please point to the Agave-class Pickets, the Warrior-class Gunships, the Sacheen-class Light escorts, the Hajen-class Fleet tenders, the Majestic-class Heavy Cruisers, the Defender-class Assault carriers, the Nebula (Defender)-class Star destroyers, or the Endurance-class Fleet carriers seen since the Black Fleet Crisis.

Care to point out a time we have not had more then a glib description merely saying "fleets" or "ships"?

You made the claim it was all gone, and rather then present new ships the fulfill the roles of the old ones (thus showing that it was failed and replaced) are trying to use the known ambiguity to prove your point. What you are doing is akin to saying "The Navy bought an aircraft carrier, therfore submarines are failed designs".

I'd also like to see the K-Wings and Defender Starfighters.

K-wings have made appearances, Defenders were designed for local system defense so why the hell would they appear?

Rather, Bothan Assault Cruisers, Mediator-class Battlecruisers, Viscount- and Strident-class Star Defenders, new X-Wings and E-Wings, and new Star Destroyers are the NRDF's investments.

None of which replace the old ships, merely flesh out the fleet. Thus it does not show a thing. What part of this is so damn hard to grasp?

]As evidenced by the anti-large ship doctrine espoused around the time of the BFC,

The one shown to be in error and that the person thinking it was mistaken?

and the whole purpose of the New Class being to phase out the exact kind of older fleets we see in the NJO,

No, their purpose was to standardize the fleet. Which is precisely what they did.

I believe the NRDF decided to invest in a small cache of big ships as heavy hitters supporting a large constellation of smaller, older vessels after the ineffectiveness of the New Class was grasped in combat against an inferior enemy like the Yevetha. The New Class ships are no where to be seen.

What the fuck? They stomped the Yevetha. They lost a single battle because the pilots disobeyed orders. That will happen anytime, and has zero to do with the effectiveness of the fleet. I think your dislike of the author is coloring your preceptions of what was in the books.

Cracken's Threat Dossier claims only 10 Defender-class SDs are built, and only one additional one per year for the rest of the New Class's run.

That book is so full of errors it isn't funny. any information it puts forth is highly suspect at the least. Is there an introduction to it similar to the one that appears in the Imperial Sourcebook?

Doesn't sound like the New Class was slated to replace the old fleet models to me. Doesn't sound like it really revamped the NRDF as intended. Sounds more like they bought a handful piecemeal to justify the R&D costs of an unsuccessful project, as evidenced by the Black Fleet Crisis herself.

Why the hell would they buy it to justify the R&D, the R&D would be carried out by private corporations, same as how aircraft companies try to sell replacements for the space shuttle.

[CmdrWilkens]

Although its hardly a substanative point "Starships of the Galaxy" from the WOTC RPG states "In practice, the few Defender Star Destroyers the New republic has are considered too precious to risk in pitched battle." (pg 93)

WHile this really is a weak statement as far as confirming or denying CTD it does suggest that the number of Defenders is highly limited.

[Ender]

Although its hardly a substanative point "Starships of the Galaxy" from the WOTC RPG states "In practice, the few Defender Star Destroyers the New republic has are considered too precious to risk in pitched battle." (pg 93)

WHile this really is a weak statement as far as confirming or denying CTD it does suggest that the number of Defenders is highly limited.

But how much so? if it makes up only 1% of the NRs destroyer forces, and the ratio of destroyers to other ships is the same as with the USN, and the NR fleet is only 1% of the Empire's old fleet, and we use bare bottom low end fleet calcs, that is still a little over 16,000 Nebula class ships (16,216 if you want to get picky)

[PainRack]

I think its more likely that the New Class of ships weren't cut off in the bud. The Centrepoint crisis makes note of the fact that the entire Republic Fleet was virtually in the phase of undergoing changes in their organisation and receiving new ship types and the subsequent trials, refits and maintenance of the older ship models and current operational requirements.

Its also extremely likely that newer ships designs continued to be introduced and these subsequently grabbed the attention in the NJO.

[Illuminatus Primus]

When they design destroyers so that they already carry massive loads of fighters, yes it really is that easy. I chose my example for a reason, its essentially what they are doing.

The Defender was part of a seperate project (the Defender Project, as opposed to the New Class), and later drafted into the New Class apparently as the Nebula (?) as the Endurance-class's counterpart. Point being that they apparently started off with the Defender and shoehorned it into the Endurance's "twin." At least that is what I gathered.

My point isn't that its impossible, but that a fleet carrier role and heavy destroyer role (esp. one that doesn't require the multi-roles that the ISD did or its range) would be better served and more effective with dedicated vessels and spaceframes.

You are making the claim, not me, therefore you must provide the backing. No shifting involved.

I'm saying the New Class didn't get implemented outside of the Fifth Fleet.

The New Class has only been seen in the Fifth Fleet from BFC to NJO. It hasn't been seen implemented anywhere outside of the Fifth Fleet, so why should it be assumed that the entire fleet was standardized along those lines?

Care to point out a time we have not had more then a glib description merely saying "fleets" or "ships"?

Have the specified vessels in the NJO by-and-large been older designs, Star Destroyers (some with grav-wells, which suggests the Dominator-class ships), and newer ships like the KDY Republic-class Cruiser (based on descriptions probably fills the role of the Majestic-class Heavy Cruiser), older Corellian Corvettes and Gunships, Ranger-class Gunships (the latter of which fill the Warrior-class's role), Star Defenders and Battlecruisers which run against the carrier-group tactics that I observed from BFC.

You made the claim it was all gone, and rather then present new ships the fulfill the roles of the old ones (thus showing that it was failed and replaced) are trying to use the known ambiguity to prove your point.

Well, we have not seen the New Class presented anywhere since BFC. Why should we assume that the NRDF was further standardized by the New Class?

What you are doing is akin to saying "The Navy bought an aircraft carrier, therfore submarines are failed designs".

I see older designs which the New Class was intended to replace due to logistical and training difficulties like the CC-7700 frigates (and ISDs and Interdictor SDs) in service. I also see Star Defenders and Battlecrusiers which run against the carrier taskforce tactics I see the New Class as representing. Filling the small cruiser mold in lieu of the New Class Majestic-class Heavy Cruiser or older ships like the Dreadnought-class Heavy Cruiser is the new and larger KDY Republic-class Cruiser and Bothan Assault Cruisers. We see older ISDs serving instead of Defender SDs, which are only slated for once a year for the New Class's run. Newer Ranger-class and older Corellian Gunships serve in that role in the place of the Warrior-class. As for carrier duty, that's been assumed mostly by old Star Destroyers.

At least half the roles of the New Class vessels (Gunships, Cruiser, Star Destroyer, and Carrier) have direct analogues (or at least ships who seem to be occupying the roles in the place of dedicated vessels), and some of those older designs that the New Class was supposed to phase out of the fleet. Short-range fighters are nowhere to be seen, and anti-capship roles that were to be filled by the K-Wing are served by new long-range space superiority/strike starfighters like the XJ X-Wing and Series II E-Wing.

K-wings have made appearances, Defenders were designed for local system defense so why the hell would they appear?

Where? And since almost the entire war up to Destiny's Way featured local system defense and combat, I don't see it as that far-fetched.

None of which replace the old ships, merely flesh out the fleet. Thus it does not show a thing. What part of this is so damn hard to grasp?

What's so hard to grasp that the Bothan Assault Cruiser and Republic-class have replaced the Majestic-class, the new Ranger-class has superceded the New Class Warrior-class Gunships, older Corellian Gunships also fill the role, Imperator-class and Dominator-class Star Destroyers instead of Defender-/Nebula-class Star Destroyers and Endurance-class Carriers, and heavy hitters like the Mediator-class Battlecruiser and Viscount-class Star Defender which are part of a "big-ship" philosophy that seems to run counter to the roles the New Class vessels occupy. The anti-capship assault roles have been mostly taken over by long range space superiority fighters operating from fixed bases or Star Destroyers like the XJ, not short-range bombers like the K-Wing operating from in-theater carriers.

The one shown to be in error and that the person thinking it was mistaken?

Exactly. The New Class hasn't been seen outside the Fifth Fleet during the Black Fleet Crisis, and rather, the old fleet philosophy and Order of Battle has mostly remained intact, bolstered by new vessels (like the Bothan Assault Cruiser and Republic-class) occupying roles previously filled by the New Class vessels (Majestic-class) and a large assortment of various older ships (Dreadnought-class), and said constellation of lighter ships around a few heavy hitting leviathans, such as older Imperator-class or Dominator-class Star Destroyers, and MC80s and even new Mediator-class and Viscount-class ships.

No, their purpose was to standardize the fleet. Which is precisely what they did.

They standardized the Fifth Fleet. And thereafter, the New Class was not seen again. But the New Jedi Order shows us many fleets and armadas composed of the motely collection of older ships around a philosophy similar to pre-New Class ships.

That book is so full of errors it isn't funny. any information it puts forth is highly suspect at the least. Is there an introduction to it similar to the one that appears in the Imperial Sourcebook?

Does it matter? Do you have contradictory evidence on the Defender-class SD that isn't in itself flawed? Can you point out to me the Defender-class Star Destroyers throughout the post-BFC fleets that show it actually had much larger production?

Why the hell would they buy it to justify the R&D, the R&D would be carried out by private corporations, same as how aircraft companies try to sell replacements for the space shuttle.

Why do you think we bought the B-2 Spirit for well over a billion plus per unit? We originally were going to buy hundreds, and thus the price was only the millions per unit.

[Ender]

When they design destroyers so that they already carry massive loads of fighters, yes it really is that easy. I chose my example for a reason, its essentially what they are doing.

The Defender was part of a seperate project (the Defender Project, as opposed to the New Class), and later drafted into the New Class apparently as the Nebula (?) as the Endurance-class's counterpart. Point being that they apparently started off with the Defender and shoehorned it into the Endurance's "twin." At least that is what I gathered.

You gather that based off what exactly? the Author says it was always part of the New class series.

My point isn't that its impossible, but that a fleet carrier role and heavy destroyer role (esp. one that doesn't require the multi-roles that the ISD did or its range) would be better served and more effective with dedicated vessels and spaceframes.

My point is that it might not. I point back to my original example: While the Virginia class might have had some benefits going off a straight fast attack designed frame (speed primarily), basing it off a boomer means the things can carry more missiles, can carry a seal team for longer, and are even quieter and easier to run. And thats on top of the economic factors.

You are making the claim, not me, therefore you must provide the backing. No shifting involved.

I'm saying the New Class didn't get implemented outside of the Fifth Fleet.

The New Class has only been seen in the Fifth Fleet from BFC to NJO. It hasn't been seen implemented anywhere outside of the Fifth Fleet, so why should it be assumed that the entire fleet was standardized along those lines?

Repitition of your conclusion in your reasoning.

Care to point out a time we have not had more then a glib description merely saying "fleets" or "ships"?

Have the specified vessels in the NJO by-and-large been older designs, Star Destroyers (some with grav-wells, which suggests the Dominator-class ships),

Negative, clearly not a Dominator style as they were older ships recently modified to have projectors that did not require external bumps. All it says is that they are "star destroyers" which gives no indication of class.

and newer ships like the KDY Republic-class Cruiser (based on descriptions probably fills the role of the Majestic-class Heavy Cruiser),

You think a cruiser fills the role of a frigate?

older Corellian Corvettes and Gunships, Ranger-class Gunships (the latter of which fill the Warrior-class's role),

The NJO has "gunships" that fall into the frigate/destroyer are. We also know that the Republic is famous for the name game (calling its star destroyers star cruisers and using Star defender instead of star battleship. Its the same ship modern governments pull calling ships cruisers and frigates instead of destroyers because they sound more peaceful). We lack any information about its weaponry or tonnage and only know that it appeared alongside an ISD2 at Heleska 4. In otherwords, we cannot classify it and show that it replaces the Warrior.

Star Defenders and Battlecruisers which run against the carrier-group tactics that I observed from BFC.

Your observation was shot down by Wilkins to be in error. In the BFC fighters carried special anti cap ship weapons to soften the targets so that star destroyers escorted by heavy cruisers could pound them into dirt. This is exactly what we see in the NJO era.

You made the claim it was all gone, and rather then present new ships the fulfill the roles of the old ones (thus showing that it was failed and replaced) are trying to use the known ambiguity to prove your point.

Well, we have not seen the New Class presented anywhere since BFC. Why should we assume that the NRDF was further standardized by the New Class? [/quote]Because it was never said to be halted and we know that at the time of the Centerpoint situation that the bulk fo the fleet was being upgraded and replaced.

What you are doing is akin to saying "The Navy bought an aircraft carrier, therfore submarines are failed designs".

I see older designs which the New Class was intended to replace due to logistical and training difficulties like the CC-7700 frigates (and ISDs and Interdictor SDs) in service.

Its called "phasing out".

I also see Star Defenders and Battlecrusiers which run against the carrier taskforce tactics I see the New Class as representing.

See above. I still think I am on target in my position that your dislike for parts of the books and the author have colored your preceptions as to what was in them.

Filling the small cruiser mold in lieu of the New Class Majestic-class Heavy Cruiser or older ships like the Dreadnought-class Heavy Cruiser is the new and larger KDY Republic-class Cruiser and Bothan Assault Cruisers.

I think I'm seeing the root of the problem here: You don't know how to classify ships.

Classification is basically based of 3 things: Role, weaponry, and tonnage. For example, see the proposed DDX. In terms of tonnage, is is a mere 400 tons less then a Missouri class battleship. But its weponry (relative to the modern day) and role are both that of a destroyer, hence its classification as such.


Majestic class: Tonnage is unknown, so that is out. But its weaponry is lighter then that carried by destroyers, and in battle its role was to escort them and fight. This points to the ship serving as a frigate. As an aside, if we go by length instead of tonnage, its also in the Firgate range as well.

Republic class: Tonnage again unknown. Its weaponry puts it in the cruiser range, as does its role. So its a cruiser.

Bothan Assault Cruiser: Tonnage unknown. Weapons loadout puts it in the Destroyer range, and was suppossedly designed to fill the role of the VSD (possible propaganda). Fulfills the multiple roles of flagship, carrier, escort, and combatant like destroyers do. But also appears to serve the primary role of convoy escort. That couples with its comparison to the VSD make it an Escort Destroyer.

We see older ISDs serving instead of Defender SDs, which are only slated for once a year for the New Class's run.

Of course we would still see ISDs, they are still extremely good ships and they would be being slowly phased out once the stuff like the Mon Cal type destroyers were gone. But unless we know more Imperial type ones are being produced it doesnt show.

And FYI I just fired off an email to K-mac trying to get more info about those things since all the published info is FUBAR.

Newer Ranger-class and older Corellian Gunships serve in that role in the place of the Warrior-class.

Ranger is unknown, Corellian Gunships lileky slowly being phased out. Its a big fleet, there will be alot of the suckers.

As for carrier duty, that's been assumed mostly by old Star Destroyers.

We've seen the Rogues operate out of a flagship, as they always have since the Admirals like to keep the high profile squadrons nearby, and we have seen the jedi squadrons operate from fixed bases. Other then that we have seen about nil as to how fighters are brought into the area.

At least half the roles of the New Class vessels (Gunships, Cruiser, Star Destroyer, and Carrier) have direct analogues (or at least ships who seem to be occupying the roles in the place of dedicated vessels),

Dealt with.

and some of those older designs that the New Class was supposed to phase out of the fleet.

The fact that the fleet is huge and that in a time of peace shipbuilding will slow doesn't let you accept the fact that there will still be a considerable number of older ships yet to be replaced doesn't let you account for that?

Short-range fighters are nowhere to be seen, and anti-capship roles that were to be filled by the K-Wing are served by new long-range space superiority/strike starfighters like the XJ X-Wing and Series II E-Wing.

So even though you say in your post they fulfill different roles, you claim the fill the same ones?

K-wings have made appearances, Defenders were designed for local system defense so why the hell would they appear?

Where?

NEGVV says they "first appeared during the Black Fleet Crisis 16 standard years after the battle of Yavin, and have been mobilized for nearly every subseuent conflict." and I could swear I read about them somewhere else even if I can't find the passage right now.

And since almost the entire war up to Destiny's Way featured local system defense and combat, I don't see it as that far-fetched.

The sole time we saw local forces stand up to the Vong was at Duro, where the bulk of the combat was not scene as it focused on the Jedi. Rest of the time it was a Republic fleet facing them down.

None of which replace the old ships, merely flesh out the fleet. Thus it does not show a thing. What part of this is so damn hard to grasp?

What's so hard to grasp that the Bothan Assault Cruiser and Republic-class have replaced the Majestic-class,

The fact that you think the role of a frigate would be filled by an escort destroyer and a cruiser would be my chief impediment.

the new Ranger-class has superceded the New Class Warrior-class Gunships, older Corellian Gunships also fill the role,

See above

Imperator-class and Dominator-class Star Destroyers instead of Defender-/Nebula-class Star Destroyers and

I have no problem with ISD hold-overs, you need to show that they were constructed instead of being phased out. And the Mon Mothma and her sisters were not Dominators.

Endurance-class Carriers, and heavy hitters like the Mediator-class Battlecruiser and Viscount-class Star Defender which are part of a "big-ship" philosophy that seems to run counter to the roles the New Class vessels occupy.

The statemrnt that the NR avoids and decommssions big ships is simply wrong as we know that they kept the Luysankya and had several multi km long ships. As we know it to be wrong, and you agree that it was, I cannot fathom why you are trying to use it to support yourself.

The anti-capship assault roles have been mostly taken over by long range space superiority fighters operating from fixed bases or Star Destroyers like the XJ, not short-range bombers like the K-Wing operating from in-theater carriers.

The X wing is a F. the Ewing is a F/A. The K-wing is a bomber. Yet they replace each others roles?

The one shown to be in error and that the person thinking it was mistaken?

Exactly.

If you agree that the statement was wrong, why the hell are you using it to support your argument?

The New Class hasn't been seen outside the Fifth Fleet during the Black Fleet Crisis, and rather, the old fleet philosophy and Order of Battle has mostly remained intact, bolstered by new vessels (like the Bothan Assault Cruiser and Republic-class) occupying roles previously filled by the New Class vessels (Majestic-class)

See above.

and a large assortment of various older ships (Dreadnought-class),

Where?

and said constellation of lighter ships around a few heavy hitting leviathans, such as older Imperator-class or Dominator-class Star Destroyers,

See above

and MC80s and even new Mediator-class and Viscount-class ships.

I can't remember an 80, IIRC the ship at Ord Mantell was a 90. And Mediator and Viscounts don't prove a thing.

No, their purpose was to standardize the fleet. Which is precisely what they did.

They standardized the Fifth Fleet. And thereafter, the New Class was not seen again. But the New Jedi Order shows us many fleets and armadas composed of the motely collection of older ships around a philosophy similar to pre-New Class ships.

No, the philosophy is identical. Fighters with heavy weapons soften up the targets, then cap ships come in and pound them. We saw this at Endor. We saw this in the Pre DE era. We saw this in the BFC. We see this in the NJO. The fighting style and philosophy hasn't changed.

That book is so full of errors it isn't funny. any information it puts forth is highly suspect at the least. Is there an introduction to it similar to the one that appears in the Imperial Sourcebook?

Does it matter? Do you have contradictory evidence on the Defender-class SD that isn't in itself flawed?

Awaiting email response.

Can you point out to me the Defender-class Star Destroyers throughout the post-BFC fleets that show it actually had much larger production?

We know the name of the ship is wrong. We know the weapons loadout is wrong. We know the statement that it could stomp an ISD head to head is wrong. But somehow the tiny tidbit that supports you is right?

Why the hell would they buy it to justify the R&D, the R&D would be carried out by private corporations, same as how aircraft companies try to sell replacements for the space shuttle.

Why do you think we bought the B-2 Spirit for well over a billion plus per unit? We originally were going to buy hundreds, and thus the price was only the millions per unit.

Which doesn't explain at all why they would have to buy it to justify the R&D that they didn't have to pay for. Hell, there wouldn't even be any R&D, just designing.

[Connor MacLeod]

"Each of the six bombers was carrying two fat T-33 plasma torpedoes, known among the crews as shield-busters or rotten aeggs. Designed to detonate at the shield perimeter rather than to penetrate it, the plasma wwarheads of the T-33's created the most intense radiation burst of any New Republic weapon, several times the output of a capital ship's ion cannon batteries.

The focused cone of radidation was designed to overload ray-shielding generators, either burning them up with the feedback or pushing them overlimit with the bounceback. Once even one generator was down, the towers for the particle shields woudl be vulnerable to the turbolaser turrets on the gun frigates. If everything went according to plan the carriers, already falling back behind the cruiser screen, would never come close to engaging the enemy directly."

- Shield of Lies page 292.

This suggests that fighters were primarily support craft in conjunction with larger ships - a role which was supported by the battle of ILC-905 and the Battle of N'Zoth in Tyrant's Test (both of which were primarily dominated by capital ships.)

I'd be hard pressed to *not* think of a battle that did not rely primarily on capital ships to deal with other capital ships, aside from a few specialty squadron incidents (IE rogue or Wraith) or that were due to special circumstnaces.

[Connor MacLeod]

Some stuff regarding the "New Class" from Cracken's Threat Dossier:

Page 64:

"This reorganizational downsizing of the Defense Force is an ideal time to modernize the ships of the line."

Next paragraph:

"After the resettling and reorganization of the New Republic government and military, the nNew Class proposal was submitted to the Defense Council, and accepted on a trial basis after surprisingly brief debate and review. The Fifth Fleet, then in its early planning stages, was ordered to implement the New Class plan."

Thats just a small bit of what I pulled from the book, but its rather telling about the basic point. Based on what I can derive from CTD, the New Class project was indeed meant to "replace" all the older ships in the fleet with the "New Class" models (there was mention of a change in roles for the Defense Force as well as a desire to severely downsize the fleet) - with the Fifth Fleet serving as the trial basis for the project. Had the New Class proven successful, its likely that the rest of the other four fleets would have been replaced with New Class ships.

As it was, with what happened in the aftermath of the BFC and what happened much later in the NJO, that policy was changed.

[Ender]

As it was, with what happened in the aftermath of the BFC and what happened much later in the NJO, that policy was changed.

Except the crux here is whether or not that did change. All the new ships fit into other roles, and the fighting strategy has not changed, and the idea that the Republic did not use big ships was in error. I see no evidence the New Class was considered a failure, more likely that it was just continued or possibly expanded (that would explain the viscount/Strident controversy, but thats the only possible evidence for that idea so i don't really support it that much)

[Connor MacLeod]

Except the crux here is whether or not that did change. All the new ships fit into other roles, and the fighting strategy has not changed, and the idea that the Republic did not use big ships was in error. I see no evidence the New Class was considered a failure, more likely that it was just continued or possibly expanded (that would explain the viscount/Strident controversy, but thats the only possible evidence for that idea so i don't really support it that much)

The indication was as per the BFC was that they were downsizing the entire fleet, but also building ships that were vastly smaller than Imperator class ships (the largest vessels were still less than a mile long - the Republic-class destroyers - the Defender/Nebula class Destroyers may have been intended to replace those.) These ships were more disposable and had less endurance than their Imperial counterparts, and emphasized a smaller number of longer-ranged guns and greater mobility. They were *NOT* originally intending to build larger ships (they in fact make this statement in the BFC - Shield of Lies I believe, where they claimed to have scrapped the Lusankya... even though they did not.)

The fact that this policy backfired severely in the BFC lead to the changes we eventually see in the later New Republic and NJO novels (The development of the Mediators, the Star Defenders, etc.) This basically means that the New Class project as was originally intended was scrapped and then modified to accomodate the construction of larger vessels.

[Ender]

The indication was as per the BFC was that they were downsizing the entire fleet, but also building ships that were vastly smaller than Imperator class ships (the largest vessels were still less than a mile long - the Republic-class destroyers - the Defender/Nebula class Destroyers may have been intended to replace those.)

Republic is a cruiser, Nebula is a destroyer, clearly they arne't going to replace each other.

These ships were more disposable and had less endurance than their Imperial counterparts, and emphasized a smaller number of longer-ranged guns and greater mobility. They were *NOT* originally intending to build larger ships (they in fact make this statement in the BFC - Shield of Lies I believe, where they claimed to have scrapped the Lusankya... even though they did not.)

The statement said from the onset (meaning the beginning of the Rebellion, not the New class) that thye had used smaller ships. This is contradicted by the movies and the lusankya and guardian. The idea is simply wrong and thus is not valid evidence. It may be a result of propaganda, but it is not accurate.

The fact that this policy backfired severely in the BFC lead to the changes we eventually see in the later New Republic and NJO novels (The development of the Mediators, the Star Defenders, etc.) This basically means that the New Class project as was originally intended was scrapped and then modified to accomodate the construction of larger vessels.

the erroneous statement has been dealt with and the fact that larger vessels that do not fulfill any of the roles that the new class did means there is no indication the New class series was discontinued.

I repeat: Saying that the Mediator and Viscount prove the New Class was halted is like saying that because the USN built an Aircraft Carrier, submarines are no longer used.