The Extended Universe

[His Divine Shadow]

Each Dreadnaught had 10 heavy turbolasers that seemed to be able to harm (perhaps seriously) a Star Destroyer. I'd say they're a significant force.

I believe the ratio is atleast 6 dreadnaughts for one ISD.

[His Divine Shadow]

Remember the area that the NR had to control/defend though. By TCoPL the NR had 600,000 member systems.

TCoPL? What era? Is there a solid figure?
I'd like a quote if so, so I can add it to my site.

The Empire always outnumbered the Rebels, but the Rebels always concentrated their forces and the Empire had to spread their's out.

Yes well when the Rebels became the NR, they got actual territory to protect so they had to take a much more Empire like approach, hence the balance of wich I speak.

[David]

TCoPL= The Courtship of Princess Leia approx 4 years after Endor. I'll get the exact quote for you.

[His Divine Shadow]

TCoPL= The Courtship of Princess Leia approx 4 years after Endor. I'll get the exact quote for you.

K, thx.

[David]

On page 4-5:


Perhaps five hundred thousand beings had gathered on the main floors, eager to catch a glimpse of the Hapans. Tens of thousands of security guards had cleared the gold carpet between the shuttle and Leia, and Han looked up to the balconies. Nearly every star system in the old Empire had had its own balcony here, and beside each balcony was the nation's standard. Over six hundred thousand of those standards hung now on the ancient marble walls, showing the membership of the New Republic[/i]

[David]

Is that what you wanted?

[His Divine Shadow]

Is that what you wanted?

Yeah, it's added to my site now, might come in handy when people doubt the scale of SW.

[David]

The unbelievers! Let them burn!

[Silver]

Don't forget about the statement of hundreds of star systems rushing to join the New Republic per day from Spectre of the Past.

[Iceberg]

<priest>A reading from the fourth Book of Zahn.</priest>

Ardiff looked out the viewport. "It's still not over yet, sir."
But it was. And deep down, Pellaeon was sure Ardiff knew it as well as he did. A thousand systems left, out of an Empire that had once spanned a million. Two hundred Star Destroyers remaining from a Fleet that had once included over twenty-five thousand of them.
And perhaps most telling of all, hundreds of star systems that had once maintained a cautious neutrality were now petitioning the New Republic for membership. They, too, knew that the outcome was no longer certain.
Grand Admiral Thrawn could perhaps have breathed the remaining sparks into an Imperial victory. But Grand Admiral Thrawn was gone.
- Spectre of the Past, Chapter 1, Page 6

[Icehawk]

Ardiff looked out the viewport. "It's still not over yet, sir."
But it was. And deep down, Pellaeon was sure Ardiff knew it as well as he did. A thousand systems left, out of an Empire that had once spanned a million. Two hundred Star Destroyers remaining from a Fleet that had once included over twenty-five thousand of them.
And perhaps most telling of all, hundreds of star systems that had once maintained a cautious neutrality were now petitioning the New Republic for membership. They, too, knew that the outcome was no longer certain.
Grand Admiral Thrawn could perhaps have breathed the remaining sparks into an Imperial victory. But Grand Admiral Thrawn was gone.

I remember reading that for the first time and almost getting tears in my eyes. DAMN YOU NEW REPUBLIC SCUM!!!

[Mr Bean]

Thrawn wins!

Zahn wins Best writer of Extended Unverse any day from me and to the Logistcal idiots out there let me paint you a picuture

I have 5000 ships
100 Transports
And some little stuff
I have 4500 worlds to defend, some less some more important
So bascily all considered I have 50 ships in my main fleet

YOU have 4000 ships
70 Transports
Little stuff
and 3000 worlds to defend
Say your fleet is 40 ships big
200 free ships tilts the balance a bit

But thats a small example

MORE LIKLEY in Dark Force rising(Guesses, based on what the Empire used to be, heck ROTJ had what 30-40 ships?)

NR-400,000 Worlds/Systems
EP-80,000 Worlds/Systems
(Thrawn says as much 1/4 as much yadda yadda Ill get the quotes If I must but this is just speculation)
NR Standing Fleet 28,000 ships(some worlds provide their own protect/don't need it)
EP-17,000

Thats just some base numbers I MADE UP but it helps me make my point

Get 200 free ships is equivalt to getting a new free Sector fleet maybe two(Sector 100-250 ships?)
Heck Courscant the most important planet in the Galaxy and the Traditional Set of Power had under the Empire(Had to relly on X-Wing Series for this) 4 Star Destoryers + 10 or so Golan II Platforms

Less than 20 ships to Defend the most important planet?

For the simple reason you don't need more to strip you planets of Defenses for an over-whelming attack like say 50 Destroys is to invite attack yourself

200 Free ships might not SEEM like alot but Logistical its excelent its a free strike force, maybe two depending on how powerful Dreadnaughts are

What could Hilter have done with 200 more Panzers?

Answesr-A whole lot of damage

The typical planet we see in SW has one maybe two ships guarding it
If I show up with 200 ships BDZ the planet thats 399,999 planets you have now right?
And how do you guess my next target?
I've got 399,999 to choose from and you can't strip enough ships to guard them all without weaking somewhere

Another way to put it, If say in 1943 Hitler Landed 300 Panzers and 3 weeks support for them in Flordia
Would we all be speaking German right now?
Keep in mind there are few bases around there NTM nice clean roads to travel down.

Think about this fokes, 200 ships goes a long way when you acutal LOOK at tatics and Logistics

[General G]

Star Wars EU

Good- Thrawn
Bad- Thrawn is killed and fails to destroy the New Republic.

Good- Tons of new Imperial Superweapons
Bad -They all get destroyed

Good- The Vong would have been wiped out by the Empire
Bad- The New Republic can't defend itself from a rabid cow.

Good- The Vong are destroying the New Republic
Bad- Thrawn did'nt

Good-Zahn
Bad-KJA

So it seems that the good and bad points balace out

[David]

I loved that Thrawn was a genius, but the idea that the Empire would just fall apart without him got me POed.

[JJP]

Logistical idiot? Bite me!

I said that the EU always seems to underestimate the strength and size of the Imperial Starfleet, giving the measily 200 Dreads counting as significant as an example.

Your fleet estimates are far too small. The NR would have had to have had at least a fraction of the Imp fleet to keep order. We know that the Imps had at least 25,000 ISDs, but they also probably had much higher numbers of ship classes below this, and decreasing numbers of the classes above, up to a few Battleships. Along with all the older ships inherited from the Old Republic as well as the new designs under the Empire, you're looking at hundreds of thousands if not millions of ships.

You give the piddling defences of Coruscant in the X-Wing series as an example- exactly, that's my point, the EU always undersestimates Imp Fleet size. 200 Dreads would be enough to make a difference in the EU, only because they don't realise the huge industrial capacity the DeathStar represented.

(Plus I believe that the defences of Coruscant haven't always been presented as stupidly small- in the "what if" story where Luke's torpedo doesn't blow up the DeathStar, the Coruscant defence fleet is many, many Executor class ships)

You say that the typical planet we see in Star Wars has only one or two ships defending it- sorry but the only canon examples of planets seen in the films are galactic backwaters, apart from Alderaan.

[Mr Bean]

Acutal I'm refering to all books from Zhan to KTJ seem to agree most worlds its 1-4 Captial ships

You seem to forget the FOOD and SUPPLIES for a bunch of Excutitors would be rather draining on a planet that already importants everything, plus the garrisons, plus the other ships, plus the platforms

EU is not understating the amount of ships they had
LOOK at ROTJ
When they had 30 Star Destroyers gathered togther plus Ex they make all sorts of I never seen such a huge fleet before(The book also backs me up on this)
The EU does not understate things look at the numbers

800,000 Memeber Stats(Imp Emipre strikes back levels)
25,000(Height of thier power)
Those ships gotta go SOMEWHERE

The tons of worlds lack of ships plays it self out well when you relse what they have done to counter-atact it

Sector Fleets
IE 5-14 ships that can react fast to protect any of the systems under there control(Hyperdrive makes it possible) along with 1 or two ships on each planet


Second onto some statments you made

only because they don't realise the huge industrial capacity the DeathStar represented.

Sure the Deathstar was big
Sure its the size of a small moon but realy its not the Be all end all
Wong want to give us any numbers on the number of Star Destroyers it takes to make a Death Star?

We know that the Imps had at least 25,000 ISDs, but they also probably had much higher numbers of ship classes below this, and decreasing numbers of the classes above, up to a few Battleships. Along with all the older ships inherited from the Old Republic as well as the new designs under the Empire, you're looking at hundreds of thousands if not millions of ships.

Yes they might have had greater numbers of lower ships, call it 80,000 in total of Captial Class ships
Even if they had a few mil you still trying to Defend 800,000+ Systems some which need alot some which need a little PLUS sector Fleets, PLUS a Strike Fleet

LOGISTICS!
An Army Marches on its stomach
-Napolean
Any Mechnized Force runs on a sea of oild
-Clancy


SW does not have magic replicators to provided supplies and whatnot thats all provided by SHIPS who have to be flow by somthing and get the supplies from somewhere

LOGISITICS

[His Divine Shadow]

800,000 Memeber Stats(Imp Emipre strikes back levels)
25,000(Height of thier power)
Those ships gotta go SOMEWHERE

The tons of worlds lack of ships plays it self out well when you relse what they have done to counter-atact it

Hmm, as for those numbers:

Pg. 3: "It's true, Han. The Force is bringing me closer to Luke ... even though he's light years away ... he's in terrible trouble, Han. The dark side is swallowing him whole! We've got to find him!" Han: "Sure, why not? There's only twelve million inhabited star systems out there ... it shouldn't be too hard."

(ref: Dark Empire)

12 million inhabited systems, but wait, it get's better

One Million Member Worlds and 50 million Colonies, Protectorates and Governorships

(ref: Star Wars The Roleplaying Sourcebook)

Seems like they had 1 million full member worlds, who most likely controlled many other worlds on their own too, so probably most of the million worlds represented several star systems and/or planets.

As for the low number of ISD's, consider their role and design specs.
They are multipurpose ships, and big ones, such ships generally doesn't tend to be built in lots of numbers, and they don't seem to be there to be stationed at planets or escort transports or such, no they are part of sector fleet that constantly travels around their designated sectors partolling, quelling hotspots ad such.

They are outside the imperial navy, infact they are reffered to as the imperial starfleet.

The navy itself is probably many magnitudes larger, millions and millions of ships, cruisers and destroyers of smaller sizes doing all the low glamour jobs and keepig watch of systems or maybe several systems or planets and escorting ships and guarding supply lines, while the starfleet and it's ISD's are under direct command of the Emperor and houses the best officers and soliders in the empire.

[Guest]

The Deathstar is the be all and end all! It's fucking huge! According to the Imperial Industrial capacity page, the DS2 with a volume 3.8E17 m³ is equivalent in size to 50 billion Galaxy Class Starships with a volume of 6.5E6 m³. It also states that an ISD is fourteen times the volume of a Galaxy Class, therefore-

3.8E17/(14*6.5E6)=4.2E9

Got that? By volume the DS2 was worth 4.2 billion ISDs. Still want to tell me that 200 Dreads would be significant?[/b][/i]

[His Divine Shadow]

Got that? By volume the DS2 was worth 4.2 billion ISDs. Still want to tell me that 200 Dreads would be significant?[/b][/i]

Yes, it's overly simplistic to equate to 4 billion ISD's.
1 DS = 1000000 crewers
4 billion ISD's = 148.000.000.000.000 crewers

1 DS = 20.000 turbolaser turrets
4 billion ISD's = 256.000.000.000 turbolaser turrets

1 DS = 1 computer system
4 billion ISD's = 256.000.000.000 turbolaser turrets

1 DS = Nearly self sufficient resource base by itseöf(IIRC)
4 billion ISD's = Will require supply lines and infra structure build up to support all those ships for food, spare parts, tibanna gas, engine fuel, starbases to maintain all the ships.

Etc, etc, etc.

[Mr Bean]

As His Divine Shadow(Only good LEXX was when Shadow was around!) was so kind as to point out comparing it spec for spec is a bit over-rated

And to quote and menchion

The navy itself is probably many magnitudes larger, millions and millions of ships, cruisers and destroyers of smaller sizes doing all the low glamour jobs and keepig watch of systems or maybe several systems or planets and escorting ships and guarding supply lines, while the starfleet and it's ISD's are under direct command of the Emperor and houses the best officers and soliders in the empire.

General I call that true except millions of ships have to have crews or to put it another way

For every one world say you have 3 ships each requiring 100,000 men(OAN-Dark Force Dreadnaughts need 200k)
So 100k people times three 300k oook

300k people each needs to drink, feed and sleep plus whatever the hell else they need
You need someplace to GET the food, someplace to refine/clean it
plus the people getting fuel for the ship
Yadddddaaaa Yada Yada
I'll skip over the list but bascily your going to need(Speclation) around 1million people to support those 100k of people in orbit counting up everything from Producers to Transportation
Times three and you get some big numbers per planet
Sure droids handle parts but then agian they can't do everything
Heck just pull/ask/call up your neasrst Naval Station and ask em how many people are on and are needed to keep the XXX people on the USS Enterpirse, feed, and clothed
NTM repairers and whatnot at the Docks


And as Mr Wong was so kind to provided BDZ numbers, if you can do that to one planet
Its gone, not coming back, so do it agian and agian because frankly their simply are not enough ships to go around(Look at the Modern day US, How many Divsions are stationed to protect aginst those willy Candians?

[Crayz9000]

My point is that the number is far too small. It should have been more like 2000. With an Empire that had at least 25,000 star destroyers, 200 dreadnaughts would be utterly piddly, yet in the books they're presented as pivotally important.

You're getting tactics confused with strategy. In the tactical sense, 200 dreadnaughts is a nice amount of ships to reinforce an individual sector fleet (which has been drained for five years) with. In the strategic sense, they aren't that important, but still a fair quantity.

[His Divine Shadow]

General I call that true except millions of ships have to have crews or to put it another way

For every one world say you have 3 ships each requiring 100,000 men(OAN-Dark Force Dreadnaughts need 200k)

No a Dark force dreadnaught requires 2k, not 200, and thats more than most ships except ISD's and bigger ships.

Most smaller ships requires crews in their hundreds or less, wich is the bulk of the fleet.

Anyhow the Empire is huuge, populations are gigantic(coruscant alone has several trillion people on it), even with 10 million ships they are horribly undermilitarized.

I don't find unlikely that they have crewers and soldiers numbering in the tens of billions of people.

I calculated that if they'd put 9k storimes on 12 million planets(even though there are another 37 million planets without any protection) they would have 65 billion storm troopers alone.

Given the size and scale of the galaxy, this is not unfeasible.

[Rob Wilson]

For every one world say you have 3 ships each requiring 100,000 men(OAN-Dark Force Dreadnaughts need 200k)
So 100k people times three 300k oook

Holy shit where did you get that crew number? it's 3k, not 300k! and what is the population of the SW galaxy? If each planet had only Earth-like numbers (average out between Coruscant and say Naboo) then we get 5,000,000,000 * 12,000,000 (people times planets) that gives us 6 E16 people. If we have an average of 17,000 personnel per ship (average out between 3 000 and 37000 for ISD) and we have 40 ships per planet then we get 8E11 personnel for the navy or 1/75000th of the available population.

Not too many really.

[His Divine Shadow]

The limitation on the navy isn't following the same rules as here, they have as many ships as they need to adequatly protect most planets, and with 10 million ships they could possibly be able to patroll most systems.

Honestly I believe the 10 million number is even too low for the Empire at it's height.

[Crayz9000]

Holy shit where did you get that crew number? it's 3k, not 300k! and what is the population of the SW galaxy? If each planet had only Earth-like numbers (average out between Coruscant and say Naboo) then we get 5,000,000,000 * 12,000,000 (people times planets) that gives us 6 E16 people. If we have an average of 17,000 personnel per ship (average out between 3 000 and 37000 for ISD) and we have 40 ships per planet then we get 8E11 personnel for the navy or 1/75000th of the available population.

Not too many really.

Minor nitpick- the Dark Force dreadnaughts required 2,000. A standard Rendili Dreadnaught required 16,000 crew. Only 200 Dark Force refits were done; the bulk of the Dreadnaughts in the Imperial Navy were of the standard variant.