Fixing the Plot Holes in ROTJ

PSW: discuss Star Wars without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Post by Ghost Rider »

Stas Bush wrote:The Empire's actions are weird in all movies, perfectly consistent with the Evil Overlord's Rules.
ANH, ESB and ROTJ all show one thing - Rebels win. Even at Hoth, this was not a big defeat. :lol: Just destroyed one base, not really that essential for the Rebels, 17 ships (that would be Galofree transports and X-wings - not something to be really proud of) & some snowspeeders. Imperials lost 3 AT-ATs on surface, and a Star Destroyer (one or maybe more) during the foolhardy asteroid chase and a few TIE Fighters. All main Rebel personnel escaped, including the most dangerous Jedi-wannbe. Having a rebel General (Solo) at hand, Vader gave him to Boba Fett. The Empire got virtually nothing from the whole operation. Except that Vader revealed Luke the big stuff. :lol:
Which in the end was Vader's whole plan.

Why then would the opening crawl mention his search for Skywalker. He honestly didn't care about some backwaters rebellion. Defeating them would come at the appropriate time and place.
After a short while, the Rebels were in full power at Endor. Triumphed over Executor, kicked the Imperial fleet
Emperor's death. Which is shown throughout EU as the cause of their defeat...not much else.
and utterly defeated the "best troops", be it a few battalions or an entire legion.
Which nearly won the day barring Chewbacca getting lucky and hijacking a AT-ST. The Ewok casualities were immense.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Post by K. A. Pital »

Which in the end was Vader's whole plan
Vader was not responsible for the loss of 3 Imperial walkers. But he was responsible for ineffective blockade. WTH was he thinking of when ordering to chase the Falcon with all what the Empire had? Luke was still there, on Hoth, by the time Falcon went away. And because Imperials ran away from Hoth on Vader's order, Luke had no problems and got some Jedi training at Yoda's. They had to maintain blockade so that nothing would get out from Hoth. Vader's actions were bad for the Empire.
Emperor's death. Which is shown throughout EU as the cause of their defeat...not much else.
They are really bad then. I personally find Thrawn's hype rather reasonable, but they were really, overwhelming. Superior. Pellaeon stated a +40% efficiency of the crew's performance in TT, but even if the Imperials were performing 40% above what they could with the Emperor...they were still superior. And nothing prevented them to call some back-up, instead of retreating.
Which nearly won the day
Chewbacca only destroyed 1 AT-ST and shot a few troopers. Ewoks destroyed 2 AT-ST on screen and some more in the novel. And a lot of troopers. Not that really Chewie's hijack was so essential.
The Ewok casualities were immense
I don't think so. The AT-STs could not score many hits on the ewoks. We have seen very few Ewoks die on screen. A lot more Imperials :lol:
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Post by Ghost Rider »

Stas Bush wrote:
Which in the end was Vader's whole plan
Vader was not responsible for the loss of 3 Imperial walkers. But he was responsible for ineffective blockade. WTH was he thinking of when ordering to chase the Falcon with all what the Empire had? Luke was still there, on Hoth, by the time Falcon went away. And because Imperials ran away from Hoth on Vader's order, Luke had no problems and got some Jedi training at Yoda's. They had to maintain blockade so that nothing would get out from Hoth. Vader's actions were bad for the Empire.
And Vader's plans had really no care for the Empire's health in general.

He just came out with an alternate to capture the Falcon.
Emperor's death. Which is shown throughout EU as the cause of their defeat...not much else.
They are really bad then. I personally find Thrawn's hype rather reasonable, but they were really, overwhelming. Superior. Pellaeon stated a +40% efficiency of the crew's performance in TT, but even if the Imperials were performing 40% above what they could with the Emperor...they were still superior. And nothing prevented them to call some back-up, instead of retreating.
And would it arrive in time?

Literally saying they could've alerted others means Hyperwave communications and would a Rebel crusier sit there while a vessel has her shields down.

In the end all the Emperor wanted was Luke, and when he died, his plan went to hell because that was the lynchpin of it all...killing the rebels was icing on the cake.
Which nearly won the day
Chewbacca only destroyed 1 AT-ST and shot a few troopers. Ewoks destroyed 2 AT-ST on screen and some more in the novel. And a lot of troopers. Not that really Chewie's hijack was so essential.
Given they were not routing the imperials whatsoever you tell me why it wasn't so essential. The Rebels would've never entered the shield generator otherwise.
The Ewok casualities were immense
I don't think so. The AT-STs could not score many hits on the ewoks. We have seen very few Ewoks die on screen. A lot more Imperials :lol:
Prove this sentiment given the very AT-ST that Chewbacca captured was scoring hits on ewoks. Literally the Imperial casualites were light or they would've never held the Bunker.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
User avatar
Stravo
Official SD.Net Teller of Tales
Posts: 12806
Joined: 2002-07-08 12:06pm
Location: NYC

Post by Stravo »

Stas Bush wrote:
Ghostrider wrote:Which in the end was Vader's whole plan
Vader was not responsible for the loss of 3 Imperial walkers. But he was responsible for ineffective blockade. WTH was he thinking of when ordering to chase the Falcon with all what the Empire had? Luke was still there, on Hoth, by the time Falcon went away. And because Imperials ran away from Hoth on Vader's order, Luke had no problems and got some Jedi training at Yoda's. They had to maintain blockade so that nothing would get out from Hoth. Vader's actions were bad for the Empire.

Vader could not have anticipated the ion cannon on Hoth. WEG and other sources list the ion cannon we saw as a planetary defense weapon more appropriate for developed worlds not some backwater. The ion cannon opened a hole in the blockade that the rebel ships were able to get away in. There was nothing Vader could do about it until Veers took out the generator.
Last edited by Stravo on 2004-01-22 11:31am, edited 1 time in total.
Wherever you go, there you are.

Ripped Shirt Monkey - BOTMWriter's Guild Cybertron's Finest Justice League
This updated sig brought to you by JME2
Image
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Post by K. A. Pital »

Ghost Rider
And Vader's plans had really no care for the Empire's health in general
Exactly. That is the prove that Imperial command was acting foolishly.
And would it arrive in time?
And why should it not arrive in time? Oh well, given that Endor was on the very edge of the damn Galaxy - maybe not. But then they would have no problems retreating a few light-years away to regroup, wait for support (can't be more than a day) and then strike again.
Hyperwave communications and would a Rebel crusier sit there while a vessel has her shields down
That is another example of TOTAL imperial incompetence. Jump away just 1-2 light years. Call for help.
In the end all the Emperor wanted was Luke, and when he died, his plan went to hell because that was the lynchpin of it all...
So the Emperor is acting foolishly as well. Who in the whole damn Empire was acting OK? Perhaps Piett or Veers...
The Rebels would've never entered the shield generator otherwise
Oh that's not really what one would think. Rebels had sequencer charges. They MUST have been equipped to blast through the doors, otherwise it means Rebels=fools too. And before getting the idea to speak to Imperials Han actually intended to blow up the bunker doors with AT-ST cannons.
given the very AT-ST that Chewbacca captured was scoring hits on ewoks
We have seen a few hits scored. Not that much.
Literally the Imperial casualites were light or they would've never held the Bunker
They were behind the bunker doors - the Rebels were in a battle and could not blow the doors up (only Han&Leia held positions near bunker doors). That does not mean Imperials had low casualties.
Stravo,
Vader could not have anticipated the ion cannon on Hoth
Loss of one ISD is not that essential for the blockade. If it is - just another fact of imperial incompetence. Abandon the blockade in favor of Millenium Falcon is another sign of that.

Remember, Vader's or Palpatine's, or any Imperial leader's incompetence is IMPERIAL incompetence, since they are leaders of the Empire, responsible for it's actions.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
Isolder74
Official SD.Net Ace of Cakes
Posts: 6762
Joined: 2002-07-10 01:16am
Location: Weber State of Construction University
Contact:

Post by Isolder74 »

one problem

Any scenerio where the Shuttle does not make it to the surface will tip off the Rebels to the Trap. If the Shuttle does not get through no Rebel fleet will arrive to get trapped. Piet obviously was ordered to let the shuttle with the older code get through and then the garrison commander was informed to be on his guard.
Hapan Battle Dragons Rule!
When you want peace prepare for war! --Confusious
That was disapointing ..Should we show this Federation how to build a ship so we may have worthy foes? Typhonis 1
The Prince of The Writer's Guild|HAB Spacewolf Tank General| God Bless America!
User avatar
GySgt. Hartman
Jedi Knight
Posts: 553
Joined: 2004-01-08 05:07am
Location: Paris Island

Post by GySgt. Hartman »

Stas Bush wrote: Loss of one ISD is not that essential for the blockade. If it is - just another fact of imperial incompetence. Abandon the blockade in favor of Millenium Falcon is another sign of that.
Actually a blockade was never intended. Vader planned a surprise attack, but the fleet jumped out too close to the planet, allowing the rebels to raise their shield.
"If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training, you will be a weapon,
you will be a minister of death, praying for war." - GySgt. Hartman

"God has a hard on for Marines, because we kill everything we see." - GySgt. Hartman
User avatar
Sharp-kun
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2993
Joined: 2003-09-10 05:12am
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Post by Sharp-kun »

Isolder74 wrote:If the Shuttle does not get through no Rebel fleet will arrive to get trapped.
Why? Once they reached the Endor system presumably any kind of contact with the fleet would have jeperdised the mission. If the Executor had blasted them, no message would have got out, if they chose to detain them, presumably they'd jam all transmissions.

I always thought of it as being a mission that had to succeed, as they would have no way of telling the fleet if they'd failed.
User avatar
Isolder74
Official SD.Net Ace of Cakes
Posts: 6762
Joined: 2002-07-10 01:16am
Location: Weber State of Construction University
Contact:

Post by Isolder74 »

there is no jeopardizing a mission to tip off your fleet if you fail to get in! In order for the Trap to work the shuttle must think nothing is wrong. The Code and shuttle were not garunteed to work so if they do not get in the Fleet will not arrive, why go when you know the Commando Teams did not make it. Without that one element the Fleet arriving will be a waist of time!
Hapan Battle Dragons Rule!
When you want peace prepare for war! --Confusious
That was disapointing ..Should we show this Federation how to build a ship so we may have worthy foes? Typhonis 1
The Prince of The Writer's Guild|HAB Spacewolf Tank General| God Bless America!
User avatar
Sharp-kun
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2993
Joined: 2003-09-10 05:12am
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Post by Sharp-kun »

Isolder74 wrote:there is no jeopardizing a mission to tip off your fleet if you fail to get in! In order for the Trap to work the shuttle must thing nothing is wrong. The Code and shuttle were not garunteed to work so if they do not get in the Fleet will not arrive, why go when you know the Commando Teams did not make it. Without that one element the Fleet arriving will be a waist of time!
How would they know the commando team had failed?

If the Empire decides to blast them, they're destroyed before they can tell the fleet they've failed.

If the Empire decides to capture them, they;ll presumably jam all communications.

If the Rebels land, and succeed in their mission, any communication to let the fleet know will be intercepted, and the element of surprise lost.

If the Rebels land and fail, they'll be dead, and can't let the fleet know they've failed.


Once the commando team entered the Endor system there was no way they could contact the fleet. It could easily wreck the whole misson, and it was the one chance the Rebels had against the DS2.
User avatar
Isolder74
Official SD.Net Ace of Cakes
Posts: 6762
Joined: 2002-07-10 01:16am
Location: Weber State of Construction University
Contact:

Post by Isolder74 »

arriving in system and finding a interdictor that is not suppost to be there would be a immediate tip off. They can still send out a signal before they get vapped as well.
Hapan Battle Dragons Rule!
When you want peace prepare for war! --Confusious
That was disapointing ..Should we show this Federation how to build a ship so we may have worthy foes? Typhonis 1
The Prince of The Writer's Guild|HAB Spacewolf Tank General| God Bless America!
User avatar
Sharp-kun
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2993
Joined: 2003-09-10 05:12am
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Post by Sharp-kun »

Isolder74 wrote:arriving in system and finding a interdictor that is not suppost to be there would be a immediate tip off. They can still send out a signal before they get vapped as well.
The thing is, if the empire decides to vape them, they won't even see it coming. Its a shuttle, 1 hit and bang. Secondly, if the Empire plan to kill them, they'd presumably jam the coms.
User avatar
Isolder74
Official SD.Net Ace of Cakes
Posts: 6762
Joined: 2002-07-10 01:16am
Location: Weber State of Construction University
Contact:

Post by Isolder74 »

I'm sure Vader would apreaciate you killing his son! And the Emporer would not either, remember he is not as forgiving as Vader is if you get the hint. This was the Emporer's big plan and the Commando Teams must think nothing is wrong for it to work. Now better tactics to defend the Bunker that is different! A order to not open the door for anyone for instance!
Hapan Battle Dragons Rule!
When you want peace prepare for war! --Confusious
That was disapointing ..Should we show this Federation how to build a ship so we may have worthy foes? Typhonis 1
The Prince of The Writer's Guild|HAB Spacewolf Tank General| God Bless America!
User avatar
Stravo
Official SD.Net Teller of Tales
Posts: 12806
Joined: 2002-07-08 12:06pm
Location: NYC

Post by Stravo »

What peopel have to understand about Endor is that in the Emperor's mind the destruction of the rebellion is a secondary objective. Luke is his primary concern. His whole focus is turning Luke. If he turns Luke and the rebels escape big whoop. They're as good as dead anyway since the only one that can take him down is now his apprentice.
Wherever you go, there you are.

Ripped Shirt Monkey - BOTMWriter's Guild Cybertron's Finest Justice League
This updated sig brought to you by JME2
Image
User avatar
Sharp-kun
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2993
Joined: 2003-09-10 05:12am
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Post by Sharp-kun »

Isolder74 wrote:I'm sure Vader would apreaciate you killing his son! And the Emporer would not either, remember he is not as forgiving as Vader is if you get the hint. This was the Emporer's big plan and the Commando Teams must think nothing is wrong for it to work.
Second one was meant to read "not to kill".

All they have to do is wait till the shuttle is next to the Executor and lock tractor beams while jamming communictaions. They get Skywalker, and the rebels don't know they've failed.
User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Post by Ghost Rider »

Stas Bush wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:And Vader's plans had really no care for the Empire's health in general
Exactly. That is the prove that Imperial command was acting foolishly.
Ah so Vader is indicative of all Imperial command :roll:
Stas Bush wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:And would it arrive in time?
And why should it not arrive in time? Oh well, given that Endor was on the very edge of the damn Galaxy - maybe not. But then they would have no problems retreating a few light-years away to regroup, wait for support (can't be more than a day) and then strike again.
And where is your justifcation they HAD a day?
Stas Bush wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Hyperwave communications and would a Rebel crusier sit there while a vessel has her shields down
That is another example of TOTAL imperial incompetence. Jump away just 1-2 light years. Call for help.
Oh yes...and once again, prove this was accomplishable given the battle and the situation.
Stas Bush wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:The Rebels would've never entered the shield generator otherwise
Oh that's not really what one would think. Rebels had sequencer charges. They MUST have been equipped to blast through the doors, otherwise it means Rebels=fools too. And before getting the idea to speak to Imperials Han actually intended to blow up the bunker doors with AT-ST cannons.
Prove this assertion.
Stas Bush wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:given the very AT-ST that Chewbacca captured was scoring hits on ewoks
We have seen a few hits scored. Not that much.
Yes, and given the rebels were never able to rout the imperials from the bunker, it would show they were in control.
Stas Bush wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Literally the Imperial casualites were light or they would've never held the Bunker
They were behind the bunker doors - the Rebels were in a battle and could not blow the doors up (only Han&Leia held positions near bunker doors). That does not mean Imperials had low casualties.
Given they never diverted the Bunker forces...must mean their casualties weren't devastating either.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
User avatar
Isolder74
Official SD.Net Ace of Cakes
Posts: 6762
Joined: 2002-07-10 01:16am
Location: Weber State of Construction University
Contact:

Post by Isolder74 »

Stravo wrote:What peopel have to understand about Endor is that in the Emperor's mind the destruction of the rebellion is a secondary objective. Luke is his primary concern. His whole focus is turning Luke. If he turns Luke and the rebels escape big whoop. They're as good as dead anyway since the only one that can take him down is now his apprentice.
And part of that is having his friends in danger to provoke Luke to anger. The Emporer Insists that you let those commandos get in. He had positioned a force that was all in puposes intended to limit the Rebel's chances of success to practically nil. The Ewoks are the WILD CARD here. Without them no attack around lightly guarded "back door" no diversionary attackes and no need to run forces around to the back from the front while still maintaining that perimiter. The Moment the Battle moved to the back door no one was suppost to know about it raised the Rebel's chances immensly. They almost suceeded until the Imp's ruhed in to regain control. One minute without the responsend the Rebels would have had their charges in place and Han would have no qualm setting them off with him still in there if need be if it gives the fleet a chance to suceed.
Hapan Battle Dragons Rule!
When you want peace prepare for war! --Confusious
That was disapointing ..Should we show this Federation how to build a ship so we may have worthy foes? Typhonis 1
The Prince of The Writer's Guild|HAB Spacewolf Tank General| God Bless America!
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Post by K. A. Pital »

Ghost Rider
Ah so Vader is indicative of all Imperial command
I already said a post below:
Remember, Vader's or Palpatine's, or any Imperial leader's incompetence is IMPERIAL incompetence, since they are leaders of the Empire, responsible for it's actions.
I actually noted for the Imperial command, that Piett and Veers may be the most rational men out there. But Vader, Palpatine, Ozzel, Needa, Tarkin - total incompetence. Unbelievable.
And where is your justifcation they HAD a day?
If there were NO imperial forces within a day of flight, another sign of total incompetence (whoever be it, Palpy or Vader). If the Rebels left after a day... but wait, didn't they stay on Endor till late at night - and the celebration was going on for quite a bit of time... :lol: It seems they weren't even afraid of the Imperials...
Oh yes...and once again, prove this was accomplishable given the battle and the situation
The Rebels had an interdictor? Wow. Or, perhaps, not every ISD is Hyperwave-capable?
Prove this assertion
The Rebels did not know about the secondary door. Hell, they intended to go with arms blazing through the main entrance! And what would they do if doors were shut? :D Hijack an AT-ST, or what? In fact, the AT-STs were not even meant to intervene. And we saw Han Solo blew up the lock on the bunker doors when the Rebels entered first time.
it would show they were in control
It would. A small group of Imperials hiding below. Actually, Dr. Saxton already mentioned the fact that the Imperials sent up very-very strange "squads" for help:
In the last scene where the Imperial personnel are fooled by Han Solo into opening the back door, order are given to "send three squads to help with the pursuit," and yet only 12 soldiers ran out, instead of the 24 to 30 expected. [Did other troops emerge from other doors elsewhere on the base, eg. on the other side of the ridge?] The composition of this unit is odd as well, consisting of four naval troopers, one army officer, five stormtroopers and one black-suited NCO. Perhaps, casualties had been so extreme that only a scratch force could be put together
And I did not actually suppose casualties were extreme.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Post by Ghost Rider »

Stas Bush wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote: Ah so Vader is indicative of all Imperial command
I already said a post below:
Remember, Vader's or Palpatine's, or any Imperial leader's incompetence is IMPERIAL incompetence, since they are leaders of the Empire, responsible for it's actions.
I actually noted for the Imperial command, that Piett and Veers may be the most rational men out there. But Vader, Palpatine, Ozzel, Needa, Tarkin - total incompetence. Unbelievable.
Yes, because let's see.

1. Vader was hunting Luke and captured Solo and Leia.

2. Tarkin found the rebel's hideway but was defeated by a lucky shot by a Force User and who was nearly killed if not for a Corellian pilot.

Needa and Ozzel were fools, but in that case so was Piett he just wasn't killed. But this shows how the Imperials were incompent given that in every movie the rebels won only by a stroke of luck?
Stas Bush wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:And where is your justifcation they HAD a day?
If there were NO imperial forces within a day of flight, another sign of total incompetence (whoever be it, Palpy or Vader). If the Rebels left after a day... but wait, didn't they stay on Endor till late at night - and the celebration was going on for quite a bit of time... :lol: It seems they weren't even afraid of the Imperials...
Amazing that you never addressed your original claim

I asked for your justification of this, and given your original sentiment was all the Imperials had to do was leap a few light years(and of course no rebel cruiser would dare follow because they are either just as dumb or stupider) and wait for reinforcements.

Justify why all the Imperials had to do was leap a few light years.
Stas Bush wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Oh yes...and once again, prove this was accomplishable given the battle and the situation
The Rebels had an interdictor? Wow. Or, perhaps, not every ISD is Hyperwave-capable?
Nice to seeing dodging again.
Stas Bush wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Prove this assertion
The Rebels did not know about the secondary door. Hell, they intended to go with arms blazing through the main entrance! And what would they do if doors were shut? :D Hijack an AT-ST, or what? In fact, the AT-STs were not even meant to intervene. And we saw Han Solo blew up the lock on the bunker doors when the Rebels entered first time.
And look...no proof, again.

You literally presume Solo's first act behind the controls of the AT-ST was to blow the doors...because why again?
Stas Bush wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:it would show they were in control
It would. A small group of Imperials hiding below. Actually, Dr. Saxton already mentioned the fact that the Imperials sent up very-very strange "squads" for help:
In the last scene where the Imperial personnel are fooled by Han Solo into opening the back door, order are given to "send three squads to help with the pursuit," and yet only 12 soldiers ran out, instead of the 24 to 30 expected. [Did other troops emerge from other doors elsewhere on the base, eg. on the other side of the ridge?] The composition of this unit is odd as well, consisting of four naval troopers, one army officer, five stormtroopers and one black-suited NCO. Perhaps, casualties had been so extreme that only a scratch force could be put together
And I did not actually suppose casualties were extreme.
Thank you for quoting Saxton....amazing that it doesn't say anything about who's in control.

Though I do concede the Imperials were in heavy casualities...doesn't mean the Bunker forces ever had to leave.

Thus they are still in control.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Post by K. A. Pital »

Ghost Rider,
1. Vader was hunting Luke and captured Solo and Leia
And he lost them both - a Rebel General and a former Alderaan princess. And Luke he lost, too. High Rebels would be captured/killed at Hoth, if not for Vader's actions.
2. Tarkin found the rebel's hideway but was defeated by a lucky shot by a Force User and who was nearly killed if not for a Corellian pilot
Tarkin was really incompetent. Destroying Alderaan as a political action had negative consequences for the Empire, causing hatred among it's own population. That's as far as Tarkin's initiative went, because we know he didn't even consult the Emperor before destroying Alderaan! Even as Alderaan was a Rebel stronghold, it had billions of civilians (unlike Hoth or Yavin). Rebels on Alderaan must have been decimated in some other way, not causing the Empire's image to be hated.
More than that - Tarkin found the Rebel hideaway, but during the attack he refused to do minimal norms of safety. Only Vader's squadron (30 fighters) went to fight the Rebels. Out of 1064 fighters. That's real incompetence. And the refusal to evacuate after being shown a real danger. Even Bast was more competent than Tarkin (he avoided blowing up with the Death Star and ended up under Vader's direct command, not bad).
but in that case so was Piett he just wasn't killed
Yes, perhaps I overestimated Piett. He's a fool, too, if we remember the Bespin incident.
Justify why all the Imperials had to do was leap a few light years
Why? Because how would they follow? It's too hard to track ships in hyperspace, because multiple vectors have to be considered.
Nice to seeing dodging again
How would the Rebels prevent a hyperjump? And then, they could've even activated the communications during hyperspace.
You literally presume Solo's first act behind the controls of the AT-ST was to blow the doors...because why again?
No, I don't presume *looks in the script* Sorry, I was mistaken.
The point is - Solo already blew up the bunker lock once. When the Rebels went in first time.
Thus they are still in control
Yes, I admit they still are in control of the bunker.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
GySgt. Hartman
Jedi Knight
Posts: 553
Joined: 2004-01-08 05:07am
Location: Paris Island

Post by GySgt. Hartman »

Stas Bush wrote: And he lost them both - a Rebel General and a former Alderaan princess. And Luke he lost, too. High Rebels would be captured/killed at Hoth, if not for Vader's actions.
Vader didn't jump out too close to the system. He went for a surprise attack, for which a few ISDs should have been sufficient.
When that went wrong, he went after his priority targets: Han and Leie, who he wanted to use to lure Luke into a trap.
Only Vader's squadron (30 fighters) went to fight the Rebels. Out of 1064 fighters. That's real incompetence.
You got your numbers a little mixed up, didn't you? Second, the fighters weren't supposed to be able to harm the station.
"If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training, you will be a weapon,
you will be a minister of death, praying for war." - GySgt. Hartman

"God has a hard on for Marines, because we kill everything we see." - GySgt. Hartman
User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Post by Ghost Rider »

Stas Bush wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote: 1. Vader was hunting Luke and captured Solo and Leia
And he lost them both - a Rebel General and a former Alderaan princess. And Luke he lost, too. High Rebels would be captured/killed at Hoth, if not for Vader's actions.
Ozzel's.
Stas Bush wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:2. Tarkin found the rebel's hideway but was defeated by a lucky shot by a Force User and who was nearly killed if not for a Corellian pilot
Tarkin was really incompetent. Destroying Alderaan as a political action had negative consequences for the Empire, causing hatred among it's own population.
And show this where in the movies?
Stas Bush wrote:That's as far as Tarkin's initiative went, because we know he didn't even consult the Emperor before destroying Alderaan! Even as Alderaan was a Rebel stronghold, it had billions of civilians (unlike Hoth or Yavin). Rebels on Alderaan must have been decimated in some other way, not causing the Empire's image to be hated.
They were a dissendent government and the whole point of the Death Star was what once again?

And note his words demonstration. Tarkin took the appropriate action at the time, you're using an omniscient 3rd person foresight to judge something you didn't know at the time either.
Stas Bush wrote:More than that - Tarkin found the Rebel hideaway, but during the attack he refused to do minimal norms of safety. Only Vader's squadron (30 fighters) went to fight the Rebels. Out of 1064 fighters. That's real incompetence. And the refusal to evacuate after being shown a real danger. Even Bast was more competent than Tarkin (he avoided blowing up with the Death Star and ended up under Vader's direct command, not bad).
So Tarkin KNEW those events were going to happen?

Since you're tossing incompentence without grasping the meaning of the word, he KNEW or was at least under good pretension that the rebels would get lucky with a single shot that required no use of a computer and only one person made and he was a Force User, and Bast wasn't being edgy or paranoid?

Yes, sheer incompetence.

And your TIE fighter number are pitifully low.
Stas Bush wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:but in that case so was Piett he just wasn't killed
Yes, perhaps I overestimated Piett. He's a fool, too, if we remember the Bespin incident.
Yes, because he KNEW an R2 unit would discover the modifications from the Bespin computer and KNEW that they would fix the Hyperdrive. :roll:
Stas Bush wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Justify why all the Imperials had to do was leap a few light years
Why? Because how would they follow? It's too hard to track ships in hyperspace, because multiple vectors have to be considered.
In the middle of heated battle?

Yeah that what's been shown thousands of times, I mean when engaging with MC-80s at point blank range, all the ISD's had to do was disengage, and leave.
Stas Bush wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Nice to seeing dodging again
How would the Rebels prevent a hyperjump? And then, they could've even activated the communications during hyperspace.
Prove the second assumption, and hmmm they were engaging in battle...sure.

We've seen hundreds of instants in all of the canon and EU wherein they've disengaged immediately and leapt into hyperspace.
Stas Bush wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:You literally presume Solo's first act behind the controls of the AT-ST was to blow the doors...because why again?
No, I don't presume *looks in the script* Sorry, I was mistaken.
The point is - Solo already blew up the bunker lock once. When the Rebels went in first time.
So try, try again...without even knowing it would work?
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Post by K. A. Pital »

Ghost Rider
Ozzel's
No, Vader's. The hunt for the Millenium Falcon in the asteroid field was... umm... foolish? If all he cared about was his sunny son Lukie, he was a damn bad commander for the Imperials at the point. But he even chased the Falcon, while Luke was still on the planet and missed Luke himself because of that chase.
And yet, he caught Han and Leia. And lost both. Partly, of course, it's Piett's fault. But only partly.
And show this where in the movies?
Don't tell me the last planet in the Special Editions with a huge celebration is not Coruscant, the capital of the glorious Empire! How come so many Empire-haters out there, even in the very capital?
Tarkin took the appropriate action at the time
He did not. He actually believed in the invulnerability of the Death Star (or that of the Empire?). This is why he acted like he did. But his actions were inappropriate. Should I mention that oversonfidence is also a sign of incompetence? That is shown by two persons: Tarkin and Palpatine. Both high Imperial ranks :D
So Tarkin KNEW those events were going to happen?
One must take account. In a war, overconfidence can lead to defeat. Overconfidence is a feat of incompetent commanders (so is under-confidence). Tarkin should have raised all starfighters to eliminate any threat to the Death Star. At least, he should do that after being informed about that threat by Bast. Bast was not paranoid - he was just-out from the DS analitics centre. And the Death Star analysists - paranoid as well?
And your TIE fighter number are pitifully low
Whatever, even if it's low. The Rebels had no more than a hundred. Something like ~30 fighters. Even raising that up to 100 fighters, the Imperials would outnumber them 10:1. That's what shoud have been done. By a competent commander.
Yes, because he KNEW an R2 unit would discover the modifications from the Bespin computer and KNEW that they would fix the Hyperdrive
Oh yes - Piett was such an idiot that he never imagined that the hyperdrive could be fixed in a few minutes by a droid. Thanks for pointing out. Instead of wrecking the hyperdrive completely, so that it would require days of repairs (like Han's long stand in the belly of the worm).... what a competent commander would do to ensure the Rebel capture - Piett ordered to simply switch the thingie off. That can be corrected in 1 minute. Idiot.
all the ISD's had to do was disengage, and leave
The Rebel fleet went away when the Death Star exploded - the Imperials were not engaged in battle by that time, or?
Prove the second assumption, and hmmm they were engaging in battle...sure
Second assumption? Well, I think in one of the Boba Fett comics Vader used hyperwave transmission while being in Hyperspace. Gotta check that out. In a battle - were they outnumbered? Not really. Disengage one or two ISDs or even lesser ships is not so hard. And by the Death Star's destruction they were not in a battle, although still present in the system.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
Illuminatus Primus
All Seeing Eye
Posts: 15774
Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
Contact:

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

On the Battle of Hoth:

Lord Darth Vader is approximately equivalent to our President in official function regarding the military. Lord Vader was installed as the Imperial Armed Services** Supreme Commander*. He was responsible for overall strategy, but Ozzel, as flag officer of Death Squadron, was ultimately responsible for tactics. Apparently Vader suspected Luke was with Leia and Han Solo. There is no evidence to suggest he knew where Luke was and simply didn't go there. In fact, that runs entirely counter to the fact that we know Vader's entire motivation was Skywalker.

It was FADM Piett's job as commander of Death Squadron to competently maintain a blockade and assault the Rebel Base. It was his failure. In military operations decisions and tactics are delegated at the various levels. Piett was not able to do this. However, the late FADM Ozzel did bring the fleet in too close which provoked the raising of a deflector shield. It was this incompetence which prevented Death Squadron from scanning for the ion cannon (according to TISB, sensors and scanners do not operate through planetary shields).

On Alderaan and Hating the Empire:

The destruction of Alderaan was perfectly within the Emperor's adoption of the Tarkin Doctrine. Alderaan, the restricted aristocratic capital world of the Alderaani Sector and Viceroyalty, was funneling money, arms, and recruits into the Rebel Alliance, as well as giving the sympathy and a voice within the Imperial Senate. Reducing it to glowing embers was a powerful message to other influencial and aristocractic Core Worlds like Chandrilla, that supporting the Alliance was fatal.

Lord Vader remarks that the public would lament the death of the Emperor in the novelisation of Return of the Jedi. The SE version of Return of the Jedi depicts a demonstration of no more than several tens of thousands in a square on Coruscant. The population of the planet was equivalent to 10^10 times as great. It was miniscule. Hell, just the expected fraction of Rebel sympathizers and Alderaanians should easily make many times that number.

On the Death Star I:

The first Death Star was equipped with powerful jamming equipment which rendered fighter targeting computers impotent: there was very, very little to no possibility that any fighter could make the shot. Only Luke could, and as far as Tarkin knew, Vader was the last of his kind. He had no reason to suspect any danger. Tarkin assessed the risk, and concluded that there was no significant probability of success. And he was right! There was no way to know or to reasonably guess that Vader's son would be among the pilots and could use the Force to score a shot. Overcautiousness has lead to many a defeat or failure in the Real World. Incompetence is knowing better and just being stategically stupid.

Raising all fighters is patently retarded. It would make friendly-fire and crashes very likely in the dense fire and poor manuverability conditions. He knew that Vader's squadron was being dispatched, it should be more than enough--and indeed, only a last minute stroke of luck made it not enough.

On the Millennium Falcon's Hyperdrive:

Totally wrecking the hyperdrive would not be effective: Lando and especially Chewbacca were intimately familiar with the Falcon's drive systems. They would be aware that it would not function and not attempt to escape from Bespin aboard it.

Ideally, the Rebels would like to escape aboard the fast and familiar Falcon, programmed with coordinates to Rebel roundezvous points ASAP. If they knew it was futile, they'd simply slip out via less reliable alternative means: Lando was able to inform the majority of Cloud City's population to escape before a garrison arrived. Many of her citizens, administration, and business must have had hyperspace-capable vessels. Only now, the Rebels have slipped out amongst a sea of private ships, none of which the Executor can readily identify from the others. The Rebels escape because the Executor cannot possibly detain all the vessels nor can she identify which the Rebels are aboard.'

On the Battle of Endor (Space):

The Sector Group Deployment around the Rebel armada at Endor was not incompetent. The ISDs could not manouver at close range, and lighter Rebel cruisers could manouver into their ventral and aft faces to pound them with more effective, spread-out lighter guns--the geometry is highly unfavorable for the ISD's primary armament at point-blank range. The Rebel cruisers' more varied and lighter, more flexible armament was more effective. Nevertheless, they were losing.

A combination of the Death Star II, and the Sanctuary Moon made a gravity well the Rebels would have to manouver away from to escape. Likewise with the Sector Group. Additionally, options were limited by a set of Interdictors further out in the system, which eliminated nearly all hyperroutes to nearby systems.

That leaves reinforcement. The Empire could signal for the strategic forces or reserves in the Core, which would require the Holonet which requires lowering the shields. That leaves subspace transmissions and local forces. Most of the local Sector Group probably made up the deployment at Endor, and Sector Group HQ could've been beyond ISD subspace range. Additionally, a nearby black hole and spatial anomaly ( :P ) known as Endor's Gate further confounded communications and escape routes.

The Sector Group was panicked and confused by the abrupt termination of the Emperor's mind-influence. It was the shock of severing the connection so quickly which lead to panic.
[i]Return of the Jedi[/i], Chapter IX wrote:For the first time, the Death Star rocked. The collision with the exploding Destroyer was only the beginning, leading to various systems breakdowns, which led to reactor meltdowns, which led to personnel panic, abandonment of posts, further malfunctions, and general chaos.

Smoke was everywhere, substantial rumblings came from all directions at once, people were running and shouting. Electrical fires, steam explosions, cabin depressurizations, disruptions of chain-of-command. Added to this, the continued bombardments by Rebel cruisers -- smelling fear in the enemy -- merely heightened the sense of hysteria that was already pervasive.

For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected -- this was simply where it led.

Confusion.

Desperation.

Damp fear.
Additionally, the faltering Sector Group fought for three additional hours following the Death Star II's explosion.

On the Battle of Endor (Ground):

There's precisely zero information regarding the progress of the battle of attrition one way or another on Endor. Only that its quite clear that scout walkers do shitty in forests.

The victory was scored only by capturing the AT-ST by Chewie.

*Note: The Imperial Armed Services presumably means at least the Imperial Navy, the Imperial Army, the Imperial Marines, Imperial Intelligence, and likely an Imperial starfighter corps. It is possible that COMPForce and the Imperial Security Bureau are also part of the Armed Services, but they report the the political organization COMPNOR, not to Moff Governors, Grand Moff Governors, and the Emperor and his advisors directly, as the other Services do.

**Note: Two terms have been used to refer to the CinC of the Imperial Armed Services. In Dark Empire, Jedi Master Luke Skywalker is addressed and refered to as "Supreme Commander Skywalker." Skywalker in this capacity is paralleled to his father several times.

However, in Dark Empire II and Empire's End, Luke's replacements are addressed as "Executor Sedriss (and Nist, etc.)" and hold a position called "Executor." Sedriss is refered to as "Dark-Side executor and military dictator" by the text, and certainly in Palpatine's absence controls both the military and political sides of the Empire, as well as presiding over the various cadre of Dark Side users. "Military Executor" certainly seems to literally stand-for "Palpatine's executor" in the traditional sense. Sedriss is a military dictator because, he is empowered in an emergency to posess all power, and according to The Dark Side Sourcebook, Sedriss did serve in the Imperial Armed Forces, and presumably still holds a rank in the Army or Navy. Contrastingly, he elects to dress in the garb of Palpatine's "Dark Jedi," rather than his uniform, which is probably a political gesture to show his power over military officers who probably outrank him. Tedryn-Sha is named Palpatine's "second-in-command," which probably deals with authority over the Dark Side users and irrelevent to discussion.

Based on this, I must say that Lord Vader was probably invested with the position of "Supreme Commander," not "Executor." He was a civilian.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish

"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
Image
User avatar
GySgt. Hartman
Jedi Knight
Posts: 553
Joined: 2004-01-08 05:07am
Location: Paris Island

Post by GySgt. Hartman »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:On the Battle of Hoth:

[...]Apparently Vader suspected Luke was with Leia and Han Solo. There is no evidence to suggest he knew where Luke was and simply didn't go there. In fact, that runs entirely counter to the fact that we know Vader's entire motivation was Skywalker.[...]
I think he knew where Luke was, but he
a) wanted Luke to come to him on his own
b) wanted to have his friends to torture, on order to instill anger in Luke.
That would make it his prime objective to get Luke's closest friends.
"If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training, you will be a weapon,
you will be a minister of death, praying for war." - GySgt. Hartman

"God has a hard on for Marines, because we kill everything we see." - GySgt. Hartman
Post Reply