Worst EU Travesty?

PSW: discuss Star Wars without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

User avatar
Lord Pounder
Pretty Hate Machine
Posts: 9695
Joined: 2002-11-19 04:40pm
Location: Belfast, unfortunately
Contact:

Post by Lord Pounder »

Sharp-kun wrote:
Aya wrote:Chewie being killed. :x
I wouldn't say that was too bad. It was nice to see the EU finally show a real loss for the heros.

On the other hand, why did it have to be Chewie? :(
From what i heard it was planned to be Skywalker but Lucas had a hissy fit so Chewie got the chop. Lando would have been an acceptable casualty for me.

The EU book that makes me bite my tongue most was the Darksaber. I don't care how powerful Jedi are 15 or so of them could NEVER force throw an Imperial Battlefleet to the outer reaches of a star system. Add in Daala's tatical incompetance and previously mentioned, Crix Madine's(sp?) pointless death.
RIP Yosemite Bear
Gone, Never Forgotten
User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18683
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Post by Rogue 9 »

2000AD wrote:IIRC his body resurfaced in the Young Jedi Knights series and had been reprogrammed as a butler droid or something.
Actually, he'd been reprogrammed as a bodyguard for Raynar's father.
User avatar
Smiling Bandit
Jedi Master
Posts: 1274
Joined: 2002-07-05 01:58pm

Post by Smiling Bandit »

Chewie being killed.
That wasn't that bad. He was

(a) friggin OLD

(b) He went out in a most spectacular way doing what he loved

All in all, I'm just glad Salvatore actually had the guts to kill off a major character.

I second the vote for "one half-trained Jedi student" nobly sacrifices himself and knocks an entire fleet out of the system...
ph3@r the k3oot3 0n3z
I thought this was a capture the b33r mod?!
User avatar
Tribun
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2164
Joined: 2003-05-25 10:02am
Location: Lübeck, Germany
Contact:

Post by Tribun »

Three points:

3.)I find it very FUCKING idiotic, that they say in the whole EU, that the Empire is totally incompetent. Every time they merly mentionm them, they seem to say: "Look, there are the idiots! We can hit them, anger them, kill them, and they are so stupid that they can't do anything." This total nearly propagandistic bias is one of the worst things I've ever seen.

2.)Minimalist shit. Do the writes not know, what galaxy-wide means?! Two VSD's threatening he galaxy? This is so STUPID I can find words for it.

1.) The New Republic. I hate it. I really hate it. First it is suspect how this band of little more than criminals can size control of the galaxy, and then they not only remade the Republic exactly as it was before the Empire. No. They made it even worse. The NR is such a sorry excuse that I bet that many wished the Empire back. And all that boasting that they are the legal state. NO! The Empire was the legal state, and they destroyed it! They are only usupators, and bad ones too!
I really hope that the NR will not get to life agoin after TUF.
User avatar
McC
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 2775
Joined: 2004-01-11 02:47pm
Location: Southeastern MA, USA
Contact:

Post by McC »

Anything not written by Tim Zahn immediately gets the o_O look from me. Some stuff is good. For all its flaws, I did enjoy the X-wing series of books. But everything else I can live without. Zahn was the only one to really take Star Wars and perpetuate it, I think. Everybody else just wrote stories set in the world, but without a Star Wars feel to them.
User avatar
Stravo
Official SD.Net Teller of Tales
Posts: 12806
Joined: 2002-07-08 12:06pm
Location: NYC

Post by Stravo »

Smiling Bandit wrote:
Chewie being killed.
All in all, I'm just glad Salvatore actually had the guts to kill off a major character..
Actually Salvatore can't do dick without GL's permission so GL's the one who deserves the credit for Okaying it.
Wherever you go, there you are.

Ripped Shirt Monkey - BOTMWriter's Guild Cybertron's Finest Justice League
This updated sig brought to you by JME2
Image
User avatar
Illuminatus Primus
All Seeing Eye
Posts: 15774
Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
Contact:

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

GL actually specified that one. Direct consultation.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish

"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
Image
User avatar
Dorsk 81
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2592
Joined: 2003-03-04 08:10pm
Location: England
Contact:

Post by Dorsk 81 »

2000AD wrote:<snip>
Isn't his death(s) mentioned in Shadows Of The Empire? I could swear it is, but then, it's been ages since I read it. And I think you have to fight him in part of Shadows Of The Empire the game? But its been ages since I played that so I could be wrong again.
I think I had a little min fleet toy of him, he came in a pacl along with Dash on a swoop bike...Ah child hood memories...
Lord Pounder wrote:The EU book that makes me bite my tongue most was the Darksaber. I don't care how powerful Jedi are 15 or so of them could NEVER force throw an Imperial Battlefleet to the outer reaches of a star system.
That's right! Always stick it to poor ol' Dorsk 81! :(

Posters Notes: In having the username "Dorsk 81" the user does not in anyway condone the unforgivable crimes of one Mr. Kevin J. Anderson or the perversion of characters he created, bar one Mr. Kyp Durran.
Said user merely chose said username as it seemed to fight in with 1. the sci-fi/Star Wars genre and 2. the usual idea of referencing obligitory characters, series, places, etc.
Thank you.


:mrgreen:
"I would, for instance, fellate a smurf before I pick death." Dylan Moran
"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." Albert Einstein
EBC's Devonian Deviant | GALE's Supplementary Bi Brit | BoTM's Raw Recruit | GDC's Horny Delphinidae | I'm with RMA | CoIB
User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Post by Ghost Rider »

Dorsk 81 wrote:
2000AD wrote:<snip>
Isn't his death(s) mentioned in Shadows Of The Empire? I could swear it is, but then, it's been ages since I read it. And I think you have to fight him in part of Shadows Of The Empire the game? But its been ages since I played that so I could be wrong again.
I think I had a little min fleet toy of him, he came in a pacl along with Dash on a swoop bike...Ah child hood memories...
Nope...IG-88 only perishes in the game and comic of SoTE, not novel.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
User avatar
Ender
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11323
Joined: 2002-07-30 11:12pm
Location: Illinois

Post by Ender »

IG-88's tale is so contradicted by canon it isn't funny. It talks about him having fingers (he had pincher claws), being reflective (he is painted black) so blasters bounce off (they would blow him apart still as we see in the movies), that he was created after the Empire was up and running (His model is mass prodced for the clone wars). The story is borderline apocrypa.
بيرني كان سيفوز
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
User avatar
Ender
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11323
Joined: 2002-07-30 11:12pm
Location: Illinois

Post by Ender »

oh, and the New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessls gets my vote.
بيرني كان سيفوز
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
User avatar
Vympel
Spetsnaz
Spetsnaz
Posts: 29312
Joined: 2002-07-19 01:08am
Location: Sydney Australia

Post by Vympel »

Ender wrote:IG-88's tale is so contradicted by canon it isn't funny. It talks about him having fingers (he had pincher claws), being reflective (he is painted black) so blasters bounce off (they would blow him apart still as we see in the movies), that he was created after the Empire was up and running (His model is mass prodced for the clone wars). The story is borderline apocrypa.
Of course, the whole story reeks of nonsensical myth. There's probably a nugget of truth in there somewhere, but it's disregard for canon doesn't speak well to it's truth.
Like Legend of Galactic Heroes? Please contribute to http://gineipaedia.com/
User avatar
Burak Gazan
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1536
Joined: 2002-12-30 07:45pm
Location: Sault Ste Marie, Ontario
Contact:

Post by Burak Gazan »

Smiling Bandit wrote:
Chewie being killed.
That wasn't that bad. He was

(a) friggin OLD

(b) He went out in a most spectacular way doing what he loved

All in all, I'm just glad Salvatore actually had the guts to kill off a major character.

I second the vote for "one half-trained Jedi student" nobly sacrifices himself and knocks an entire fleet out of the system...

Re: Chewie? b) especially ---- except that Anakin Solo getting killed anyways makes his sacrifice a waste of time :?
The whole bloody EU has holes in it big enough to drive the DS through, from Zahn and his peckerhead "force kryptonite worms" to creating the technobabble of the week to counter certain canon elements of the saga (un-cutable materials for lightsabres, superior "biotechnology", etc etc) :evil:

Drive a stake through this son of a bitch's heart and incinerate any remains, it ALL sucks
User avatar
The Last Rebel
Youngling
Posts: 54
Joined: 2004-01-18 06:44pm
Location: Over the hills and far away

Post by The Last Rebel »

From Anderson to Zahn, it all had crappy elements to it.

From anti-force ceatures, to stupid villians, to overblown superweapons (nothing should have ever exceeded the Death Star in destructiveness or power) to stupid plots,to inept good guys (the NR),to insane Jedi, to people with apostrophies in their names (WTF? Who can pronounce this shit?), to villians that were worse than the empire (and none should be, IMO)...the list goes on and on.
`If I knew that a man was coming to my house with the fixed intention of doing me good, I would run for my life.`--Henry David Thoreau
"The beatings will continue until morale improves"
There is no problem which cannot be solved through the liberal use of napalm."
ASVS'er better known as Nathan Yates
User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18683
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Post by Rogue 9 »

The Last Rebel wrote:From Anderson to Zahn, it all had crappy elements to it.

From anti-force ceatures, to stupid villians, to overblown superweapons (nothing should have ever exceeded the Death Star in destructiveness or power) to stupid plots,to inept good guys (the NR),to insane Jedi, to people with apostrophies in their names (WTF? Who can pronounce this shit?), to villians that were worse than the empire (and none should be, IMO)...the list goes on and on.
Okay, why shouldn't any villains be worse than the Empire? There will always be stupid villains; why should a villain be any smarter than the average Joe by default? Ditto good guys. As for the ysalamiri, if their major predators hunt with the Force they would likely have a way to counter it, and they do. Stupid plots I'll give you. Other people can go insane, why not Jedi? Especially when clone madness gets involved. Hard to pronounce names are part of dealing with other languages; get used to it. And just why should the Death Star be the ultimate in destructive power? Vader said it best, it was insignificant next to the power of the Force. There, I think that's everything.
User avatar
Burak Gazan
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1536
Joined: 2002-12-30 07:45pm
Location: Sault Ste Marie, Ontario
Contact:

Post by Burak Gazan »

Except their major predators are still able to track them, so either a) they arent nullifying the force very well, or b) Zahn talking out of his ass, and the idiocy perpetuated by successive authors..... :roll:

Most, or all EU authors either never took or failed logic 101


As for the "bigger, better, meaner, eviler, etc etc" , that crapola alone makes the stuff worthy of flushage. Ah yes.....greater than Vader.....more of a Jedi than Obi-Wan.......more attuned to the force than Master Yoda.... the list of offences is endless :shock:
User avatar
Ender
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11323
Joined: 2002-07-30 11:12pm
Location: Illinois

Post by Ender »

Actually the yslarami I can kind of understand (from an outside universe perspective). Super powered characters are really hard to write convincing plots around, because 99.9% of the time they can use their powers to get out of it. Even Lucas had to find a way to deal with it with this "the darks side weakens out powers" stuff. Zahn had to find a way to make Luke a writable character without cutting his balls off, hence the Yslarami.
بيرني كان سيفوز
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
User avatar
Illuminatus Primus
All Seeing Eye
Posts: 15774
Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
Contact:

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

And DE took the other route: put him on the Imperial retreat world, surround him with enemy ships and Dark Siders, and bring back Palpatine. :twisted:
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish

"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
Image
jakez0r
Redshirt
Posts: 12
Joined: 2003-04-22 09:12pm
Location: Beaverton, Oregon
Contact:

Post by jakez0r »

I thought the Yuuzhon Vong was a pretty silly idea.
Thread Bumper Extraordinaire.
User avatar
JME2
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12258
Joined: 2003-02-02 04:04pm

Post by JME2 »

DPDarkPrimus wrote:The Yuuzan Vong.
I disagree. True, the NJO had plot holes, missed oppertunities (Boba Fett, 'Dark Journey'), and other nitpicks that I have.

But the fact of the matter is, the EU needed a wake-up call; the Bantam novels had all focused on Imperial resurgences and superweapons; the NJO, for me anyway, was a welcome break.
User avatar
Stofsk
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12925
Joined: 2003-11-10 12:36am

Post by Stofsk »

Stupid fucking unstable computer, reboot me won't you...

My reply was lost because of my computer, but let me see if I can type it ou again.

Zahn, who probably wrote the best EU books, still made some shitty mistakes. To put it succinctly:

The Ysalamiri were an artificial Jedi power limitation/nullification, and as such I despise this the most out of all the EU. If you want to write Jedi without turning them into superheroes then use the Dark Side. Or place limitations on their power, so not everyone has the ability to throw force-lightening. Or make it exhausting to use the powers, like when Luke tries TKing the X-wing out from the swamp he falls to the ground knackered. ALL of which have a precedent in the films.

Thrawn. He may be an art-interpretation genius, but his real weapon is his reputation not his strategy. Pellaeon didn't have the mettle to fight Ackbar's fleet after Thrawn died, and yet the latter somehow seemed to think it was winnable. Nowhere is Zahn's character-wanking more evident than in the duology - everyone shits his or her pants because they think Thrawn has returned from the dead, and in some cases just assume he can win any engagement without justification (like Mara does when told about the Outbound flight project, she automatically assumes Thrawn wiped them out quite easily).

Also, I think the EU minimalism started with Zahn. Note, I said "started with" not "chief abuser of" - that crime I leave in the hands of the majority of EU authors (such as the 2 VSDs being a Galactic threat, or the Ssi-ruvi menace being dealt with a single Rebel ship, or Rogue Squadron destroying the Lusankya etc). He also can't write battles. He simply can't, or won't. At the end of TLC I was expecting a titanic clash of fleets the likes of which would dwarf Endor. Do we get? Nope. We get the Grand Admiral of the Artist Appreciation Society getting stabbed by Ruhk (a good twist, and needed to be in the book), but then Captain Witless and Gutless calls a general retreat rather than staying and fighting. Even if Pellaeon lost he would have left the battle with some valued experience - like not believing the hype about some guy who likes paintings.

(jesus, this is succint? :o )

Anyway, KJA lost me quite early in his abominable Jedi Academy Trilogy, I don't know what concept or idea he introduced which sucked - I just think he sucks, period. Stackpole shat me with his constant fighter-wankfest. I love X-wings too, but no way 12 of them and a couple of freighters are gonna finish an Executor battleship. Allston's books are apparently really good, according to my friend - much better than Stackpole. Also, Star By Star is considered to be the best EU novel by far, even if it has the Yuuzhon Vong in it. The BFC is all right, but not Star Wars. He should have changed the characters names and it would have been alright.

Anyway that's all - I better submit this before my computer reboots again.
Image
User avatar
Crown
NARF
Posts: 10615
Joined: 2002-07-11 11:45am
Location: In Transit ...

Post by Crown »

The Ysalamiri were not there to stop the 'superman affect' for Zahn. They were an integral part of Thrawn's overall strategy. Zahn has said this many times, I have posted this many times, and if people actually read the trilogy it would be evident, many times.
Image
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18683
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Post by Rogue 9 »

:roll: You deny that Thrawn was a genius, do you? You think it was his reputation alone, do you? What about when he first came back from the Unknown Regions and no one had even heard of him? They weren't running from his reputation then, and he kicked their asses all the same. Thrawn was a military mastermind. He got that reputation because he brought the Empire surging back from scattered, tattered fleet elements into a major threat to the Republic. It didn't just form because of some illusion. He knew the Republic would strike at Bilbringi despite all Imperial Intelligence reports to the contrary. Pellaeon didn't have Thrawn's genius and he knew it. Ackbar would have handed him his ass had he stayed and he knew it. Running was the best thing for him and he knew it. Knowing your limitations is the first step to success and he knew them. Getting his command killed would not have helped matters.
User avatar
JME2
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12258
Joined: 2003-02-02 04:04pm

Post by JME2 »

And aren't we luck that Pellaeon survived. If Pellaeon had died there, then there would have been no Empire by the time of the NJO; this is after all the man who, alongside Daala, stabilized the Remnants and go them in the position they were in by the NJO.
User avatar
Stofsk
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12925
Joined: 2003-11-10 12:36am

Post by Stofsk »

Crown wrote:The Ysalamiri were not there to stop the 'superman affect' for Zahn. They were an integral part of Thrawn's overall strategy. Zahn has said this many times, I have posted this many times, and if people actually read the trilogy it would be evident, many times.
Then why did Zahn add the "anti-force" zone effect? I'm sorry if I speak out of ignorance, and I mean no offence. :)

And Rogue 9, I said that it was the most apparent in the duology, where Thrawn's reputation was used as a weapon against the NR. I never denied Thrawn was a genius (reread my post), I said his reputation was his main weapon. And that is true of the Duology at least.
Image
Post Reply