Imperial Anti Fighter weapons a joke, but why?!

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-01-27 04:00am

Rogue 9 wrote:Yo, lazy dinosaur, look up.

*scrolls up*

What? Aren't we guessing how he got the custom title?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-01-27 04:01am

Yeah. Its part of a theme. I got the theme. Now to figure out how he convinced Mike to customize a title to go with it. Or perhaps Mike just thought it was cool and gave it to him. Who knows? Him and Mike.

Shaidar Haran · Post by **Shaidar Haran** » 2004-01-27 04:03am

Rogue 9 wrote:Yeah. Its part of a theme. I got the theme. Now to figure out how he convinced Mike to customize a title to go with it. Or perhaps Mike just thought it was cool and gave it to him. Who knows? Him and Mike.

Actually, I doubt Mike knows.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-01-27 04:17am

Who gave you the custom title, then? That's an admin only thing, isn't it?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-01-27 04:22am

Rogue 9 wrote:Who gave you the custom title, then? That's an admin only thing, isn't it?

Yes, it is.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2004-01-27 04:28am

Darth Wong wrote:
Lazy Raptor wrote:The Empire's tendancy to overlook starfighters is damned stupid when you think about it. Most of the damage sustained during the GCW was from hit-and-fade strikes by hyperdrive equiped Rebel fighters.
It is most likely that the Empire was optimized to fight against its primary competitors from the last war. It is not a secret that the world's military forces tend to equip themselves to fight the last war in real life.

This might be true, however what would be the excuss of having LTL's targetting starfighteres when its proven through various combat campaigns that the empire has launched that they are utterly useless, battle of Yavin is a perfect example, regardless if Tarkin was a moron not to laucnh more fighters, they still didn't hit anything (actually I think they shot down 1 x-wing) so when Endor came, why weren't new defences in place, years later?

Without the fighter screen, they are utterly defenceless to fighters, who have damaging anti-capital ship proton torpedo's.

Why not have tracking laser turrets(and if they can't produce enough energy to bring down the shields) have visually guided rockets.

Its cheaper to produce those in small quantities than to lose entire stardestroyers because of a defensive laps.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2004-01-27 05:19am

Imperial Anti Fighter weapons a joke, but why?!
I was thinking tonight, why the heck does the Empire have LTL's for anti fighter weaponary.

They are purely overkill as they are in the megaton range (what is the exact strength now a days for LTL, MTL, HTL,)
and the shield strength on the rebel fighters or any other fight that has seemed to crop up in that galaxy is kiloton range.

Where was it ever even stated in official or canon that LTLs are the anti-starfighter weapon of choice for the Empire? Almost everything I've read states that TLs are anti-capital ship weapons. Many big Imperial ships aren't even geared towards combating starfighters, because of the small threat that they pose, as well as the fact that smaller escort ships and TIEs are usually there to handle them. However, there have been mentions of "point defense cannons" and quad lasers on ISDs.

The battle of Yavin is a great example of why LTL's don't work well vs starfighters. In an area no larger than maybe a small apartment building, not a single Xwing/Ywing was hit in the trench. Jamming could have been part of that, but that is regular military doctrine in that universe so why would they continue to use something so rediculously ineffective.

Barring the DS's unknown weakspot, starfighters ARE useless against the DS. Even massive fleets of capital ships (which the Rebels didn't have) would have a great deal of trouble penetrating its shields. Both canon and official sources fully admit that the DS's defenses are geared towards repelling large-scale attacks, and suck against starfighters. Besides, there's always the TIEs, but unfortunately Tarkin was too arrogant to launch them.

So why does the Empire not produce guided proton torpedo's? Not tracking via radar signature, because of the jamming but just visual?

Guided missile weapons on capital ships aren't a new thing. Even the old VSDs are said to have 80 of them. Many ships don't, so it's possible that they simply aren't as effective as laser-based weaponry. However, there are several references to proton torpedoes on ISDs.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2004-01-27 08:39am

How about the rebel-fighters shot down in ROTJ, that were flying INSIDE the superstructure of the Executor?

Or how about "The Bacta War".

In this novel the imperial captain Sair Yonka of the ISD Avarice muses over how well trained his point-defense-gunners are when it comes to shot down enemy-fighters and missiles.

A few pages later we learn of the performance of the gunners of the SSD Lusankya in the same area and how they such at it.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-01-27 10:02am

FTeik wrote:How about the rebel-fighters shot down in ROTJ, that were flying INSIDE the superstructure of the Executor?

You meant the ones shot down by TIE fighters?

Were there even any guns in that shaft?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-01-27 10:03am

Rogue 9 wrote:
FTeik wrote:How about the rebel-fighters shot down in ROTJ, that were flying INSIDE the superstructure of the Executor?
You meant the ones shot down by TIE fighters? Were there even any guns in that shaft?

That's why the X-Wing was hit from below, right?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-01-27 10:06am

*Goes to watch that scene again.*

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2004-01-27 12:01pm

Youy don't use protorps for Anti-fighter defense becuase:
1) To expensive.
2)Limited ammo
3) Takes time to lock on You have to keep your sights on a wildly manuveuring fighters for several seconds.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2004-01-27 01:17pm

The Empir'e antifighter weapon of choice are Quad Laser Turrets. A star Destoyer appears to have a great umber of these gun built into them. They also relie on their large capacity of Tie Fighters to supliment this.

The Death Star was thought to be impervious to fighter and as Dodonna said"If the Empire thought snub fighter were a threat they would have a tighter defense." You see there was no need seen to defend against a fighter attack so the weapons were never installed or designed into the system. The weakness of the exaust port was simply a small oversight and only someone who got his hands on the plans would have known about it. It is not even conceevable that some stray shot not intended to go in would even be able to reveal this weakness.

How long have I hade the title "Sith Devotee?"

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2004-01-27 07:28pm

FTeik wrote:How about the rebel-fighters shot down in ROTJ, that were flying INSIDE the superstructure of the Executor?

Or how about "The Bacta War".

In this novel the imperial captain Sair Yonka of the ISD Avarice muses over how well trained his point-defense-gunners are when it comes to shot down enemy-fighters and missiles.

A few pages later we learn of the performance of the gunners of the SSD Lusankya in the same area and how they such at it.

one rebel fighter shot down in the entire battle, horrible performance.

Official literature is over written in this case, when the rebels decided to engage the stardestroyers at close range, x-wings and the falcon were flying in between them, not one was shot down, infact, you didn't even see the falcon get hit ONCE by an LTL, or any other weapon from an ISD.

singled level defence from the empire is rediculous,

Comosicus · Post by **Comosicus** » 2004-01-27 08:10pm

Omega-13 wrote:
FTeik wrote:How about the rebel-fighters shot down in ROTJ, that were flying INSIDE the superstructure of the Executor?

Or how about "The Bacta War".

In this novel the imperial captain Sair Yonka of the ISD Avarice muses over how well trained his point-defense-gunners are when it comes to shot down enemy-fighters and missiles.

A few pages later we learn of the performance of the gunners of the SSD Lusankya in the same area and how they such at it.
one rebel fighter shot down in the entire battle, horrible performance.

Official literature is over written in this case, when the rebels decided to engage the stardestroyers at close range, x-wings and the falcon were flying in between them, not one was shot down, infact, you didn't even see the falcon get hit ONCE by an LTL, or any other weapon from an ISD.

singled level defence from the empire is rediculous,

As far as I remember, at Endor, the Imperials have sent their fighters ahead, remaining without full starfighter protection. Can't remeber though how the A-wing that tossed the bridge of the Exxecutor got hit.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2004-01-28 01:23am

Comosicus wrote:
Omega-13 wrote:
FTeik wrote:How about the rebel-fighters shot down in ROTJ, that were flying INSIDE the superstructure of the Executor?

Or how about "The Bacta War".

In this novel the imperial captain Sair Yonka of the ISD Avarice muses over how well trained his point-defense-gunners are when it comes to shot down enemy-fighters and missiles.

A few pages later we learn of the performance of the gunners of the SSD Lusankya in the same area and how they such at it.
one rebel fighter shot down in the entire battle, horrible performance.

Official literature is over written in this case, when the rebels decided to engage the stardestroyers at close range, x-wings and the falcon were flying in between them, not one was shot down, infact, you didn't even see the falcon get hit ONCE by an LTL, or any other weapon from an ISD.

singled level defence from the empire is rediculous,

As far as I remember, at Endor, the Imperials have sent their fighters ahead, remaining without full starfighter protection. Can't remeber though how the A-wing that tossed the bridge of the Exxecutor got hit.

yes exactly....so what were they planning on stopping the fighters that got through with?

And it was never shown how the A wing got hit,

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2004-01-28 01:23am

one rebel fighter shot down in the entire battle, horrible performance.

You seriously think only one fighter was shot down? Don't confuse the limited parts of the battle that were shown to be the whole thing.

Official literature is over written in this case, when the rebels decided to engage the stardestroyers at close range, x-wings and the falcon were flying in between them, not one was shot down, infact, you didn't even see the falcon get hit ONCE by an LTL, or any other weapon from an ISD.

singled level defence from the empire is rediculous,

What's the contradiction? The Avarice's gunners do not equal the gunners on those ships seen in ROTJ. The fleet in ROTJ weren't even ordered to wipe the Rebels out, and were surprised when the Rebels closed in quickly on them. You're also ignoring the NUMEROUS times the Falcon was hit throughout the movies.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-01-28 01:26am

The A-wing was hit from below, as was the X-wing that was flying just in front of it. (The X-wing was totally destroyed, while the A-wing survived to hit the bridge. That's a bit screwed up, given how delicate the A-wing is compared to the X-wing, but there you go.) I would guess a ship battery of some sort, likely an actual antistarfighter battery rather than a turbolaser. A turbolaser that got a solid hit would likely have vaporized the fighter.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-01-28 10:07am

"A snubfighter is no threat to anything else except for another snub fighter"
"If the Empire thought snub fighter were a threat they would have a tighter defense"

The Empire clearly believed that it was better to utilise the TIE fighter against another snubfighter.This was their primary role after all. Guns were probably a last ditch defence against fighters, similar to guns nowadays.

As a sidenote, one should notice that the DeathStar also had explosive bolts firing at the Rebel fighters. Makes you wonder whether these are unique to the Death Star or not.

Kerneth · Post by **Kerneth** » 2004-01-28 12:09pm

Rogue 9 wrote:The A-wing was hit from below, as was the X-wing that was flying just in front of it. (The X-wing was totally destroyed, while the A-wing survived to hit the bridge. That's a bit screwed up, given how delicate the A-wing is compared to the X-wing, but there you go.) I would guess a ship battery of some sort, likely an actual antistarfighter battery rather than a turbolaser. A turbolaser that got a solid hit would likely have vaporized the fighter.

The simplest reasoning is that the X-Wing's shields were depleted from dogfighting but the A-Wing's were fresh or at least partially up. The X-Wing took the full brunt of the shot on its belly, possibly detonating any remaining proton torpedos in the launchers, while the A-Wing's shields may have deflected some of the hit.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-01-28 12:58pm

FTeik wrote:In this novel the imperial captain Sair Yonka of the ISD Avarice muses over how well trained his point-defense-gunners are when it comes to shot down enemy-fighters and missiles.

Actually, he never mentioned anything about fighters. They were drilled in antitorpedo and antiship.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-01-28 01:22pm

Omega-13 wrote:Without the fighter screen, they are utterly defenceless to fighters, who have damaging anti-capital ship proton torpedo's.

Why not have tracking laser turrets(and if they can't produce enough energy to bring down the shields) have visually guided rockets.

Its cheaper to produce those in small quantities than to lose entire stardestroyers because of a defensive laps.

It seems that a great part of the problem for Imperial anti-starfighter weaponry is simply the performance of the starfighters. Between their maneuverability and jamming, the system simply cannot obtain a LCOS firing solution fast enough! What happens is that the gunners shoot by eye, and that doesn't work anymore. That doesn't work well since the early phases of WWII. It probably didn't work well, EVER.

The standardized AA system is supposedly a quad called CEC AG-2G. The target lock time is 1.5 seconds. As a comparison, I think the engagement time for the Russian SA-15 is about 5-8 seconds. But even that's not fast enough.

Maybe the expensive systems, like the Lancer's AG-20 would do better, but they cost a LOT more and have their own problems, which ultimately affected Lancer production.

A smaller battery will have better tracking rates, but it would likely have less processing power and a less powerful FCR, which makes it more vulnerable to the jamming aspect - see how much a fighter jumps around in the Imperial fighter targetting system, even when they aren't maneuvering that much and the TIE is like 50m or so behind the fighter.

Visually guided rockets sound cool. But think about why, even in today's world of TV guidance and even Infrared imaging guidance, there are so few air to air missiles that use optronic guidance. They may have an optronic mode, but mostly it is a backup. The main mode is generally a radar-guided system.

Active guidance provides range, bearing and vector instantly. Passive guidance provides bearing only, one has to DEDUCE range and vector. Infrared guidance goes for an obvious contrast and emission from the target that does not disappear.

Optical guidance cannot claim that - the contrast algorithms have to be more sophisticated. No matter how advanced the nation is, the missile would have to be more expensive and take more time through the contrast comparisons.

In short, a visually guided torpedo, even if free from jamming, might simply be more vulnerable to things like violent maneuvers due to its slower processing times. It might also be vulnerable to measures like camouflage. Yes, missiles can turn at very high rates, but if the seeker head isn't up to the same performance, there's a chance of evasion.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2004-01-28 06:45pm

While I agree with almost everything that you wrote,
a visually guided system would have almost no flaws,

who says that the visual guidance sees the same way we do? maybe it has 16 or 17 different viewers, seeing different spectrums of light.

yes expensive, but almost guaranteed kills,
the x-wing pilot would have no idea its going after him, because there is no radar lock, so 1 minute he's trying to shoot down a tie fighter, and the next minute he's a ball of plasma.
There is so much jamming in those battles, his sensors might not even pick it up.

Put the brain of an advanced astromec droid in one of those guided missles,

and you are all set, and if an astromec isn't fast enough, build something faster and stuff it in there.

Its like the mastercard commercials,

Cost of developing new AI = 20,000,000 credits
Cost of testing new AI = 100,000,000 credits

Cost of saving a stardestroyer = priceless

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2004-01-28 06:59pm

A few words on why the Empire's anti-fighter weaponry seems lax on either Death Star:

The original Death Star, as quoted numerous times already, was not designed to fight snubfighters, and the fact that they could penetrate the station's shields was a design oversight.

The second Death Star did not need them because of its impervious shields, of which only fell due to the Emperor's grievious stupidity.

Other Imperial craft that use LTLs in the film (ie-Star Destroyers) have no problem hitting fast and maneuverable targets (the Millenium Falcon in TESB; the X-Wing and A-Wing damaged/destroyed by the Executor).

A reason missiles aren't used often is because missiles can be jammed (seen in ANH; also explains the lack of guided ordinance at Endor, where there was jamming) and missiles can be shot down (in one of the X-Wing books; if you need a quote I will find it for you). Also, they are very expensive.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-01-28 08:12pm

And for those of you who will dismiss the missile shoot downs in the X-wing books as fighter wanking, Dash Rendar also shot a quantum armored missile in Shadows of the Empire. He didn't kill it, but if it hadn't been armored he would have.

And I wonder why that invulnerable quantum armor didn't completely contain the explosion of the missile, but oh well.