Yoda in the prequels

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-02-05 06:48pm

Except this isn't a case of a poor choice in structure. Considering the choices made in the OT it seems like the logical choice as the trilogy to be seen first.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-02-05 06:53pm

Lazy Raptor wrote:
Galvatron wrote:Maybe it was his home. Maybe he liked it there.

"Slimy? Mudhole? My home this is!"
I'm sure he did. But it's very difficult to say he isn't hiding there.

Not really. One can easily say that he chose to remain on Dagobah during the Clone Wars and was either forgotten or overlooked by the Empire.

Lazy Raptor wrote:It is never stated that Obi-Wan was Yoda's apprentice. Obi-Wan says that Yoda instructed him, this could mean anything.

Padawan, apprentice, student, pupil. Take your pick. What difference does it make?

Obi-Wan referred to him as "the Jedi Master who instructed me." That's enough for me. I always felt that the addition of Qui-Gon as Obi-Wan's other master (

) was ad hoc and tacked on.

Lazy Raptor wrote:And Palpatine was not omniscient, but he is a damned powerful Sith. He ascended to the throne of Emperor because he had enough information to take control of the Republic. He has numerous information channels, his long-range Sith precog among them. If Yoda was hiding on Dagobah prior to the New Order, Palpatine would have found out.

Just like he knew Vader would throw him to his death? I guess "what Palpatine would know" depends on who's writing the story...

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-02-05 06:55pm

neoolong wrote:Except this isn't a case of a poor choice in structure. Considering the choices made in the OT it seems like the logical choice as the trilogy to be seen first.

Maybe I'm a naive idealist, but when someone makes a set of prequels to an existing set of movies and has the balls to attach episode numbers to them, I expect the narrative structure to follow accordingly.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-02-05 07:03pm

Galvatron wrote:Not really. One can easily say that he chose to remain on Dagobah during the Clone Wars and was either forgotten or overlooked by the Empire.

It's far more logical to assume that the Empire forced him into hiding on Dagobah. He's not really frail until ROTJ, and he would have been even healthier back in the day. I find it difficult to believe he would have sat out the Clone Wars and the rise of the Empire. When he was needed most.

Padawan, apprentice, student, pupil. Take your pick. What difference does it make?

An apprentice is directly and exclusively paired with a master. Students are being trained. Instructors train. Saying Yoda instructed me does not mean I was Yoda's apprentice. He could have showed me a lightsaber trick in the locker room one day.

Obi-Wan referred to him as "the Jedi Master who instructed me." That's enough for me. I always felt that the addition of Gui-Gon as Obi-Wan's other master ( ) was ad hoc and tacked on.

Luke served two Masters.

Just like he knew Vader would throw him to his death? I guess "what Palpatine would know" depends on who's writing the story...

I agree that Palpatine can be a stunning genius and turn right around and be a flaming idiot. He says he has precog and he shoots lightning so I'd say he's a Sith. Nevertheless he was very thorough in exterminating the Jedi. I bet we'll learn of Yoda faking his death during the Purge.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-02-05 07:26pm

Lazy Raptor wrote:It's far more logical to assume that the Empire forced him into hiding on Dagobah. He's not really frail until ROTJ, and he would have been even healthier back in the day.

And the only reason we know that is because Lucas showed us a younger, healthier Yoda in the prequels. My whole point is that I would have left Yoda out entirely and we would have never seen him that way. His first appearance to us would have been in TESB.

Lazy Raptor wrote:I find it difficult to believe he would have sat out the Clone Wars and the rise of the Empire. When he was needed most.

Why? Yoda nearly refused to train Luke until Obi-Wan interceded on his behalf.

Lazy Raptor wrote:An apprentice is directly and exclusively paired with a master. Students are being trained. Instructors train. Saying Yoda instructed me does not mean I was Yoda's apprentice. He could have showed me a lightsaber trick in the locker room one day.

I stand corrected. My point stands that Yoda instructed Obi-Wan. If you'd rather downplay and trivialize that training by nitpicking the guts out of it, that's up to you.

Lazy Raptor wrote:Luke served two Masters.

Only after the first one was killed.

Lazy Raptor wrote:I agree that Palpatine can be a stunning genius and turn right around and be a flaming idiot. He says he has precog and he shoots lightning so I'd say he's a Sith. Nevertheless he was very thorough in exterminating the Jedi. I bet we'll learn of Yoda faking his death during the Purge.

I'm sure you're right, since Lucas chose to turn Yoda into a key player, which is the decision I'm disagreeing with.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2004-02-05 07:38pm

Galvatron wrote:
vakundok wrote:Galvatron, I cannot understand your problem. In epI and II the jedis were not prepared for or worried about their extermination, so, why to hide their most experienced teacher and why to leave him out from important decisions/discussions?
Out of respect for Yoda's desire for solitude, perhaps? He needn't be in "hiding" on Dagobah any more than Superman goes into hiding when he flies north to his Fortress of Solitude. That doesn't mean that Superman publicizes his whereabouts.

A highly responsible man does not say: "Leave me alone. I do not want to take part in anything." And Yoda was highly responsible, this is quite clear from TESB novelisation. There is no Superman organization in Superman as long as I know. However in the Justice leage comics for example he stays with them.
So Yoda's desire for solitude (but still training) is against psichology and your example is flawed. If you do not have other answers I think you will agree that hiding would not have made much sense.

Galvatron wrote:
vakundok wrote:Not to mention that there were no facilities on Dabogah to house many students, so Yoda would be able to teach only a very few students at any given time.
Which is exactly the direction I'd have taken with him. Instead of Yoda being a one-man "Jedi factory," he'd train his pupils one at a time.

I'd have made the Jedi order far less centralized and organized. Training would be much more personal and take place all over the galaxy, wherever Jedi masters chose to teach their apprentices.

It would have long collapsed under the pressure the jedi order faced in epI and II. A decentralized structure or an unorganized band has a longer reaction time and can only handle smaller-scale problems.
The training has two stages in both the OT and in the prequels:
-a "theoretical", including learning, meditating, body building and fighting
-and a "practical" one, including facing with "real world" problems and challenges. (The tree and Vader for Luke.)

The second is very personal in the prequels. Nearly father and son relation if you read the TPM novelisation. Only the first stage is different because the children were grouped. But this is not too surprising since at lower age, they are easier to handle. (And as such, Yoda is not a one-man jedi factory, but an elementary teacher instead, approximately the same as Obi was for Luke.)

The only things came as a surprise in the training are their really low age and the cut of family ties.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-02-05 07:38pm

Galvatron wrote:And the only reason we know that is because Lucas showed us a younger, healthier Yoda in the prequels.

Yoda is significantly healthier and more active in TESB than he is in ROTJ.

My whole point is that I would have left Yoda out entirely and we would have never seen him that way. His first appearance to us would have been in TESB.

That seems to conflict with the chronology of it all, especially considering his ties to Obi-Wan. It also seems a bit contrived. "Who will train Luke now? Never fear! A lone Master has been hiding in the middle of nowhere all along!"

I stand corrected. My point stands that Yoda instructed Obi-Wan. If you'd rather downplay and trivialize that training by nitpicking the guts out of it, that's up to you.

I was using the extreme to point out the obvious. I think Yoda played a significant role in Obi-Wan's training too, but it doesn't follow that Obi-Wan was his apprentice.

Only after the first one was killed.

Which is evidence that the Jedi don't buy into the Bushido bullshit and instructors are not the same thing as masters.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-02-05 08:00pm

Just more from yet another OT purist who thinks they know SW better than George Lucas.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-02-05 08:07pm

vakundok wrote:A highly responsible man does not say: "Leave me alone. I do not want to take part in anything." And Yoda was highly responsible, this is quite clear from TESB novelisation. There is no Superman organization in Superman as long as I know. However in the Justice leage comics for example he stays with them.

Being highly responsible doesn't necessarily mean you have to come out of retirement at an extreme old age and be on the front lines of a war when there are younger generations of powerful Jedi who are ready and able to take up the fight in your stead. Even "great warriors" get old and stop fighting eventually.

vakundok wrote:So Yoda's desire for solitude (but still training) is against psichology and your example is flawed. If you do not have other answers I think you will agree that hiding would not have made much sense.

I don't think it's flawed. I think of Yoda as a wizened, war-weary yet powerful old Samurai master and the swamps of Dagobah as his dojo. A voluntarily simple existence away from the crowded population centers where he can meditate and commune with nature and the Force.

Yoda living on Coruscant struck me as...not right. He looked like a fish out of water.

Galvatron wrote:It would have long collapsed under the pressure the jedi order faced in epI and II. A decentralized structure or an unorganized band has a longer reaction time and can only handle smaller-scale problems.

Which changes nothing. First of all, holonet communications, hyperdrive, etc. would negate a lot of those problems. Second, if the Jedi weren't meant to fight wars in the first place, then their decentralization isn't really a problem at all. That's what the military is for.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-02-05 08:12pm

I forgot to address this earlier:

Galvatron wrote:Why? Yoda nearly refused to train Luke until Obi-Wan interceded on his behalf.

Because the galaxy is better off one Jedi short than it is with another Sith. Yoda was reluctant to train Luke because of the potential danger he faced in another Dark Jedi. Especially considering how trigger-happy Luke was.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-02-05 08:29pm

Lazy Raptor wrote:Yoda is significantly healthier and more active in TESB than he is in ROTJ.

More active? Compared to what? He didn't exactly perform any acrobatic, lightsaber-wielding stunts in TESB either.

Lazy Raptor wrote:That seems to conflict with the chronology of it all, especially considering his ties to Obi-Wan.

Not really. If Obi-Wan trained on Dagobah and was a full Jedi Knight by the time the prequels began, how do his ties to Yoda necessitate Yoda's inclusion in the story at that time?

Lazy Raptor wrote:It also seems a bit contrived. "Who will train Luke now? Never fear! A lone Master has been hiding in the middle of nowhere all along!"

It was already contrived.

Lazy Raptor wrote:Which is evidence that the Jedi don't buy into the Bushido bullshit and instructors are not the same thing as masters.

I don't remember suggesting they did buy into Bushido. I think Lucas based the Jedi loosely on the Samurai, but they're not necessarily a direct analogue.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-02-05 08:38pm

Galvatron wrote:More active? Compared to what? He didn't exactly perform any acrobatic, lightsaber-wielding stunts in TESB either.

Compared to being bed-ridden and dying. Also note that flying Yoda from AOTC was flying Yoda because of the Force, not athleticism. He still needs a cane.

Not really. If Obi-Wan trained on Dagobah and was a full Jedi Knight by the time the prequels began, how do his ties to Yoda necessitate Yoda's inclusion in the story at that time?

Because he would have been going into retirement just as Palpatine started his plotting. Of course this is all debatable, but I still don't think he'd sit out a war. Especially considering he was still in decent shape by TESB.

It was already contrived.

Not when there are three prequel episodes promising to fill in the blanks.

I don't remember suggesting they did buy into Bushido. I think Lucas based the Jedi loosely on the Samurai, but they're not necessarily a direct analogue.

You were the one going on about how there can only be one master, and how it was so rediculous to be a Padawan to Jedi A while at the same time being instructed by Jedi B.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-02-05 10:50pm

Galvatron wrote:
neoolong wrote:Except this isn't a case of a poor choice in structure. Considering the choices made in the OT it seems like the logical choice as the trilogy to be seen first.
Maybe I'm a naive idealist, but when someone makes a set of prequels to an existing set of movies and has the balls to attach episode numbers to them, I expect the narrative structure to follow accordingly.

Why exactly? If it was meant to be seen chronologically, why not make them chronologically?

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2004-02-06 05:24am

Galvatron wrote:Being highly responsible doesn't necessarily mean you have to come out of retirement at an extreme old age and be on the front lines of a war when there are younger generations of powerful Jedi who are ready and able to take up the fight in your stead. Even "great warriors" get old and stop fighting eventually.

See below.

Galvatron wrote:I don't think it's flawed. I think of Yoda as a wizened, war-weary yet powerful old Samurai master and the swamps of Dagobah as his dojo. A voluntarily simple existence away from the crowded population centers where he can meditate and commune with nature and the Force.

You are right about that an extreme old warrior is better to be retired. But you are completely false about imagining Yoda as a warrior. Unless you can tell where was it stated (in the OT) that Yoda was primarily a warrior (or had fighted at all), it was only your assumption.
You based your opinion on that that Luke thought Yoda was a "great warrior" since he imagined all jedis at that time as being warriors. It seems that you missed how Yoda reacted to this, that Luke's combat training was about self defense, and that he wanted Luke to approach the tree unarmed (in other words not as a warrior).

Galvatron wrote:
vakundok wrote:It would have long collapsed under the pressure the jedi order faced in epI and II. A decentralized structure or an unorganized band has a longer reaction time and can only handle smaller-scale problems.
Which changes nothing. First of all, holonet communications, hyperdrive, etc. would negate a lot of those problems. Second, if the Jedi weren't meant to fight wars in the first place, then their decentralization isn't really a problem at all. That's what the military is for.

So, you want Yoda to hide on a planet with serious communication (which was tracable in ANH as well as in AotC) and with supply ships coming forth and back throughout 800 years. Interesting.
The jedi weren't meant to fight wars. See above. And you are wrong. A centralized organisation can send X jedis to solve X problems simoultaneously.
To understand why it is better, let's see the extreme opposite:
If they were unorganised they each would react to the nearest and biggest problem, so in many ocassions two jedis (or more) would arrive to solve the same problem wasting time. Not to mention that each jedis would had to receive the news about all problems throughout the galaxy.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2004-02-06 03:41pm

Galvatron wrote:
Lazy Raptor wrote:If Dagobah was known to be Yoda's home it would have been Base Delta Zeroed by Palpatine very early in the game.
Which is why I'd have had Yoda's location, status, and perhaps even his existence remain a mystery to all but a few.

Then the only thing Palpatine would have needed was a visit to Mr. Rental. That would be the end of Yoda's secret hideout.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2004-02-06 03:48pm

Okay, here are my two cents:

-The OT is meant to be seen first. The PT is meant to be seen afterwards. It's chock-full of spoilers, not to mention that it's really really worse. In fact avoid seeing it at all

-Jedi Apprentices are very probably thaught in the Jedi Academy by many teachers/instructors. Only when they're "elevated" to Padawan, they are assigned to a Master (they are OUT OF SCHOOL already, they are learning PRACTICAL stuff now, and there is no curriculum anymore).

Ok, I think that settles it.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-02-06 05:40pm

Not to go a little OT, but I will.

Check out what some dumbass wrote in for the latest Ask the Jedi Council question:

Q: In Episode V, Yoda acts like an idiot when Luke was visiting him. Yoda acted like he has never seen technology before. What happened to him? Did the swamp make him crazy?

A: Yoda was hiding his identity and testing Luke's patience and intentions. His behavior before revealing his true name and status as a Jedi Master is an act. You'll note that once Luke realizes that it is in fact Yoda the Jedi Master, Yoda does not behave in this odd way.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-02-07 06:09am

neoolong wrote:
Galvatron wrote:Maybe I'm a naive idealist, but when someone makes a set of prequels to an existing set of movies and has the balls to attach episode numbers to them, I expect the narrative structure to follow accordingly.
Why exactly? If it was meant to be seen chronologically, why not make them chronologically?

Because it didn't start out "in the middle" originally. It wasn't until later that Lucas tacked on the episode number and subtitle to "Star Wars" then started telling the world about the nine-part series of movies he had in mind. By then, the ball was rolling and I'm sure Lucas felt it would be better to expand on and complete Luke's story before starting over at the beginning and telling the backstory.

George Lucas wrote:I knew when I made the film that I was doing something that was not commercially wise - but I had a story to tell and to me this is one big movie. It's one 12-hour movie in six parts and it's a story.

He's been selling Star Wars to us an old-fashioned science fiction serial for a long time now. Yeah, in reality, we all saw episodes IV-VI first, but I'm judging the overall story as if it were written, filmed, and released in the order that the episodes are numbered.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-02-07 06:44am

Lazy Raptor wrote:
Galvatron wrote:Not really. If Obi-Wan trained on Dagobah and was a full Jedi Knight by the time the prequels began, how do his ties to Yoda necessitate Yoda's inclusion in the story at that time?
Because he would have been going into retirement just as Palpatine started his plotting. Of course this is all debatable, but I still don't think he'd sit out a war. Especially considering he was still in decent shape by TESB.

Couldn't he have simply been retired from adventuring and swashbuckling? He was still fit to teach, which I'm not disputing, but the prequels (and the Clone Wars cartoon) show him on the battlefield as a front-line combatant! Force powers or no, Jedi are still mortal beings who deteriorate with age and eventually die. Even Obi-Wan admitted to Luke, "I'm getting too old for this sort of thing."

Look, all I'm saying is that Yoda's presence and depiction in the prequels struck me as neither plausible or necessary. That's why I'd stash him away on Dagobah before Episode I and save him as one of the few little surprises that the prequels don't have to spoil for us.

Lazy Raptor wrote:
Galvatron wrote:It was already contrived.
Not when there are three prequel episodes promising to fill in the blanks.

A passing reference to him made by Obi-Wan or some other Jedi would be enough to establish that's he's out there somewhere, so his introduction in TESB doesn't have to seem as contrived.

Kinda like Yoda's little, "No. There is another." The prequels need that sort of thing.

Lazy Raptor wrote:
Galvatron wrote:I don't remember suggesting they did buy into Bushido. I think Lucas based the Jedi loosely on the Samurai, but they're not necessarily a direct analogue.
You were the one going on about how there can only be one master, and how it was so rediculous to be a Padawan to Jedi A while at the same time being instructed by Jedi B.

Okay, okay, I take that back. I can live with the second master bit. Besides, I thought Liam Neeson was one of TPM's few saving graces.

However, since I'd have started Episode I when Obi-Wan was older and a full Jedi Knight, he wouldn't need to be following around a master anyway. That doesn't necessarily mean I'd ditch Qui-Gon. On the contrary, I think I'd convey the idea that there were even more Jedi than Lucas does (and more Sith too).

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-02-07 07:11am

vakundok wrote:You are right about that an extreme old warrior is better to be retired. But you are completely false about imagining Yoda as a warrior.

I am? Did you see AOTC? Did you see the Clone Wars cartoon? The very first episode shows him riding some two-legged beast and leading a clone army into a ground battle with his lightsaber held high. I'm not referring to him as a "great warrior" because I like it, but because that's what they're turning him into.

vakundok wrote:So, you want Yoda to hide on a planet with serious communication (which was tracable in ANH as well as in AotC) and with supply ships coming forth and back throughout 800 years.

Yeah, pretty much. Supply ships? Yoda didn't need supplies. He lived off the land. He had no need for a ship or communications. He was a powerful Jedi Master. He had the Force to communicate with the other Jedi if need be. And if a young Force-sensitive needed training, they'd go to him.

In other words, I see no reason to assume that his lifestyle would necessarily be any different if he were merely in semi-retirement and self-seclusion the entire time versus the more popular "he was in hiding" scenario.

vakundok wrote:The jedi weren't meant to fight wars.

I agree. That's where I think Lucas succeeded. The Jedi act as generals and commanders, not grunts.

vakundok wrote:And you are wrong. A centralized organisation can send X jedis to solve X problems simoultaneously.
To understand why it is better, let's see the extreme opposite:
If they were unorganised they each would react to the nearest and biggest problem, so in many ocassions two jedis (or more) would arrive to solve the same problem wasting time. Not to mention that each jedis would had to receive the news about all problems throughout the galaxy.

I think you're just inventing problems at this point. The Jedi could easily communicate and coordinate via telepathy and the holonet.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2004-02-07 01:07pm

Galvatron wrote:
vakundok wrote:You are right about that an extreme old warrior is better to be retired. But you are completely false about imagining Yoda as a warrior.
I am? Did you see AOTC? Did you see the Clone Wars cartoon? The very first episode shows him riding some two-legged beast and leading a clone army into a ground battle with his lightsaber held high. I'm not referring to him as a "great warrior" because I like it, but because that's what they're turning him into.

Out of context. I was talking about the OT (as you could see it in the very next sentence). I saw AotC. I saw that the "warriors" went to Geonosis arena. I saw that Yoda went on a separate way which did not require a "warrior". I also saw that he remained farther from the actual battlefield as long as it was possible. I saw that he was the only jedi experienced enough to scan directly the dark side. He fighted when it was the only chance to save Anakin (and Obi) but this doesn't make him a warrior.
I also saw the Clone Wars, but I cannot remember when and why did he fight. (Not to mention that you wrote something similar to "going strictly by canon".)

Galvatron wrote:
vakundok wrote:So, you want Yoda to hide on a planet with serious communication (which was tracable in ANH as well as in AotC) and with supply ships coming forth and back throughout 800 years.
Yeah, pretty much. Supply ships? Yoda didn't need supplies. He lived off the land. He had no need for a ship or communications. He was a powerful Jedi Master. He had the Force to communicate with the other Jedi if need be.

I was talking about the padawans, not about Yoda. When Obi reported from Kamino, he used holocommunication. When Obi tried to report from Geonosis he also tried to use that and it was the reason why he got captured. So, he was clearly unable to contact the council or even Yoda through the Force. Qui-gonn (who actually was powerfull enough to belong to the council) also did not report to Yoda through the force when they faced serious problems.
Yoda was able to sense Anakin's sheer anger, but did not communicate with him.
Can you show examples (from canon as you wrote) for this?

Galvatron wrote:In other words, I see no reason to assume that his lifestyle would necessarily be any different if he were merely in semi-retirement and self-seclusion the entire time versus the more popular "he was in hiding" scenario.

The main problem is that you imagine the jedis as samurais. The fighting power of a samurai is degrading with his physical condition. It is only partially true for a jedi master since his/her fighting power is mainly related to his/her power in the force.

Galvatron wrote:I think you're just inventing problems at this point. The Jedi could easily communicate and coordinate via telepathy and the holonet.

Qui Gonn did not contact the jedi order, so they likely do not carry transcievers. But let's imagine they would carry. So at any (and each) problems they would have to know who (and how many) others were around and would have to come to an agreement. And you say it would not be a waste of time... About telepathy see above.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-02-07 03:49pm

vakundok wrote:Out of context. I was talking about the OT (as you could see it in the very next sentence).

Well, that's not really helpful. The OT doesn't tell us anything about Yoda's activities during the prequel era so we have no way of knowing based strictly on the OT. In fact, that's a big reason why I think his past could have easily been written differently for the prequels.

vakundok wrote:I saw AotC. I saw that the "warriors" went to Geonosis arena. I saw that Yoda went on a separate way which did not require a "warrior". I also saw that he remained farther from the actual battlefield as long as it was possible. I saw that he was the only jedi experienced enough to scan directly the dark side. He fighted when it was the only chance to save Anakin (and Obi) but this doesn't make him a warrior.

What does it make him? What would you call him? Soldier? Fighter? Combatant? Does it matter? Why are we splitting hairs over semantics anyway?

vakundok wrote:I also saw the Clone Wars, but I cannot remember when and why did he fight. (Not to mention that you wrote something similar to "going strictly by canon".)

They don't bother to explain it. Isn't the cartoon considered official by Lucasfilm and generally accepted around here as canon so long as it doesn't contradict the films?

vakundok wrote:I was talking about the padawans, not about Yoda. When Obi reported from Kamino, he used holocommunication. When Obi tried to report from Geonosis he also tried to use that and it was the reason why he got captured. So, he was clearly unable to contact the council or even Yoda through the Force. Qui-gonn (who actually was powerfull enough to belong to the council) also did not report to Yoda through the force when they faced serious problems.
Yoda was able to sense Anakin's sheer anger, but did not communicate with him.
Can you show examples (from canon as you wrote) for this?

See, the problem here is that you're using examples from the prequels as reasons why my ideas wouldn't work. If the prequels were different, as in my scenario, those examples wouldn't exist.

vakundok wrote:The main problem is that you imagine the jedis as samurais. The fighting power of a samurai is degrading with his physical condition. It is only partially true for a jedi master since his/her fighting power is mainly related to his/her power in the force.

Again, I assume you're basing this on Yoda's demonstrated fighting prowess in AOTC. See above.

As I told Raptor, even Obi-Wan admitted that he was "getting too old for this sort of thing." Jedi are mortal beings too. They get sick, they age, and they eventually die.

vakundok wrote:Qui Gonn did not contact the jedi order, so they likely do not carry transcievers. But let's imagine they would carry. So at any (and each) problems they would have to know who (and how many) others were around and would have to come to an agreement. And you say it would not be a waste of time... About telepathy see above.

As you said, see above.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-02-07 04:01pm

Galvatron wrote:
neoolong wrote:
Galvatron wrote:Maybe I'm a naive idealist, but when someone makes a set of prequels to an existing set of movies and has the balls to attach episode numbers to them, I expect the narrative structure to follow accordingly.
Why exactly? If it was meant to be seen chronologically, why not make them chronologically?
Because it didn't start out "in the middle" originally. It wasn't until later that Lucas tacked on the episode number and subtitle to "Star Wars" then started telling the world about the nine-part series of movies he had in mind. By then, the ball was rolling and I'm sure Lucas felt it would be better to expand on and complete Luke's story before starting over at the beginning and telling the backstory.

Actually, that means it still did. If the backstory is told later like you said, then the series started in the middle originally. He did after all choose to do Luke's story before Anakin's.

George Lucas wrote:I knew when I made the film that I was doing something that was not commercially wise - but I had a story to tell and to me this is one big movie. It's one 12-hour movie in six parts and it's a story.
He's been selling Star Wars to us an old-fashioned science fiction serial for a long time now. Yeah, in reality, we all saw episodes IV-VI first, but I'm judging the overall story as if it were written, filmed, and released in the order that the episodes are numbered.

And doing such hurts the series more than seeing it in the way it was made. The structure, such as the suprises in the OT are destroyed given seeing the PT first.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-02-07 04:12pm

neoolong wrote:
Galvatron wrote:Because it didn't start out "in the middle" originally. It wasn't until later that Lucas tacked on the episode number and subtitle to "Star Wars" then started telling the world about the nine-part series of movies he had in mind. By then, the ball was rolling and I'm sure Lucas felt it would be better to expand on and complete Luke's story before starting over at the beginning and telling the backstory.
Actually, that means it still did. If the backstory is told later like you said, then the series started in the middle originally. He did after all choose to do Luke's story before Anakin's.

Lots of movies make references to past events, but we don't say that they "started in the middle." I daresay Lucas never intended to film the backstory until Star Wars turned out to be such a hit.

neoolong wrote:
Galvatron wrote:
George Lucas wrote:I knew when I made the film that I was doing something that was not commercially wise - but I had a story to tell and to me this is one big movie. It's one 12-hour movie in six parts and it's a story.
He's been selling Star Wars to us an old-fashioned science fiction serial for a long time now. Yeah, in reality, we all saw episodes IV-VI first, but I'm judging the overall story as if it were written, filmed, and released in the order that the episodes are numbered.
And doing such hurts the series more than seeing it in the way it was made. The structure, such as the suprises in the OT are destroyed given seeing the PT first.

Hey, Lucas himself said it's basically one big 12-hour movie. That it spoils some of the surprises is inevitable.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-02-07 06:46pm

Galvatron wrote:Couldn't he have simply been retired from adventuring and swashbuckling? He was still fit to teach, which I'm not disputing, but the prequels (and the Clone Wars cartoon) show him on the battlefield as a front-line combatant! Force powers or no, Jedi are still mortal beings who deteriorate with age and eventually die. Even Obi-Wan admitted to Luke, "I'm getting too old for this sort of thing."

There are very few Jedi who are comparable in power to Yoda. And the prequels show him as a field commander, not a front line combatant.

Look, all I'm saying is that Yoda's presence and depiction in the prequels struck me as neither plausible or necessary. That's why I'd stash him away on Dagobah before Episode I and save him as one of the few little surprises that the prequels don't have to spoil for us.

I know that's what you're saying. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's absolutely necessary, but I certainly found it plausible.

And the prequels don't spoil it because they come after the OT. That's why they're called "prequels". If they were meant to be seen first they would be the "Original Trilogy". The episode numbers are for chronological reference only.

A passing reference to him made by Obi-Wan or some other Jedi would be enough to establish that's he's out there somewhere, so his introduction in TESB doesn't have to seem as contrived.

Kinda like Yoda's little, "No. There is another." The prequels need that sort of thing.

Which shatters Yoda's character for two reasons:

1. He has willfully sat out the rise of Palpatine and the Clone Wars. Disregarding the well-being of the Republic he was sworn to defend and adopting a "fuck the galaxy" metality.

2. His reputation as a "great warrior" remains unsubstantiated. I have already demonstrated that Yoda was certainly capable of fulfilling a military role during the Clone Wars. The Jedi Purge forced him into hiding. The OT demonstrates that he's biding his time to depose Palpatine. Regardless of his reluctance to train Luke.