Imperial regular army?

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-02-20 07:27pm

Sharp-kun wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote: For the rebels, it would be far more easier to infiltrate in the regular armie than it would be as for stormtroopers.
Different situation. Han and Luke killed 2 troopers and managed to avoid detection for a short time, the moment they were asked for something as simple as an operating number, they were screwed.
Infiltrating the stormies at the shield generator would require you to live with them for a period of time, during which you would almost certainly be discovered (assuming you just "replaced" a genuine trooper as Han and Luke did.). Infiltrating by actually joining the regular way wouldn't be useful, as even if you passed the security screenings, you would have no way to ensure you would be assigned to Endor.

Well offcourse not for Endor. The chances are to low for that and they had a deadline. I meant in general.
They might as well could have planted a mole years before they get on Endor. I just want to say, you never know.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-02-20 07:30pm

GySgt. Hartman wrote:The ship had been searched, and they were called by a scanning crew to help. That's got nothing to do with bad security.

A group of Stormtroopers were beat up and had their equipment stolen and no one noticed this. What's more is that after their initial search of the ship, they say that no one is aboard. Then Vader specifically asks if there were droids aboard, and they say none. Fast forward to them mugging Stormtroopers. There is clear blaster discharges to be heard and out of the four men to go aboard (the naval ratings and the two stormtroopers) only one walks out (Han disguised as a Stormtrooper), escorted by two droids, a giant furry wookie, and Obi-Wan and no one noticed this as they walked up to the hangar watch post and shoots the officer-on-watch as he's leaving to check on Luke's transmitter! How exactly is that good security?

Stormies are better that Army troopers. Why would you go through the trouble of screening Army troopers if you can have Stormtroopers?

You say that Stormtroopers are superior to Army troopers and you evidence is... where? We've never even seen Army troopers in the movies at all, everything is done by Stormtroopers, including the policework on Tatooine and guard duties.

Secondly, if they are a deep mole, they can infiltrate the Stormtroopers just as easily as the Army. Screening them is just as important.

Plus, you've not provided any evidence that a deep mole is a problem. After all, the Emperor and Vader would immediately know if there was a mole within the ranks anyway if it was a serious concern.

Since this thread isn't about Endor or Stormtroopers, I cut out the irrelevant parts. Endor has already been duscissed in detail. The question was why Stormtroopers were deployed, and I think that has been answered.

No, your reason was that Stormtroopers were the best, which isn't a good reason. Navy SEALS are suppose to be elite soldiers, but you don't guard important bases with them just because they are better than your average army grunt, now do you? That's not what they are for. If Stormtroopers are assault troopers, why would them being the best in the Army have anything to do with them going on guard duty?

Secondly, judging from Endor, Stormtroopers being the best is highly dubious. How could the Army do worse than the Stormtroopers did?

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-02-20 07:31pm

Sharp-kun wrote:Different situation. Han and Luke killed 2 troopers and managed to avoid detection for a short time, the moment they were asked for something as simple as an operating number, they were screwed.
Infiltrating the stormies at the shield generator would require you to live with them for a period of time, during which you would almost certainly be discovered (assuming you just "replaced" a genuine trooper as Han and Luke did.). Infiltrating by actually joining the regular way wouldn't be useful, as even if you passed the security screenings, you would have no way to ensure you would be assigned to Endor.

Then why would they be worried about moles, as is claimed above?

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-02-20 07:36pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Sharp-kun wrote:Different situation. Han and Luke killed 2 troopers and managed to avoid detection for a short time, the moment they were asked for something as simple as an operating number, they were screwed.
Infiltrating the stormies at the shield generator would require you to live with them for a period of time, during which you would almost certainly be discovered (assuming you just "replaced" a genuine trooper as Han and Luke did.). Infiltrating by actually joining the regular way wouldn't be useful, as even if you passed the security screenings, you would have no way to ensure you would be assigned to Endor.
Then why would they be worried about moles, as is claimed above?

Depends of how much rebels sympathisers there are. For all we know the regular army swarms with moles

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-02-20 07:44pm

Gil Hamilton wrote: A group of Stormtroopers were beat up and had their equipment stolen and no one noticed this.

It was:

TK-421 why aren't you at you're post? TK-421 do you copy?

Gil Hamilton wrote:You say that Stormtroopers are superior to Army troopers and you evidence is... where?

Doesn't Thrawn say that stormtrooopers are the best in The Last Command, when Ferrier causes them to get killed?

Gil Hamilton wrote: Then why would they be worried about moles, as is claimed above?

Better safe than sorry? Stormtroopers are assigned to important positions. What if one of the troops when the Emperor arrived was a mole, and had let off a thermal detonator?

Post by **RogueIce** » 2004-02-20 09:01pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:No, your reason was that Stormtroopers were the best, which isn't a good reason. Navy SEALS are suppose to be elite soldiers, but you don't guard important bases with them just because they are better than your average army grunt, now do you? That's not what they are for. If Stormtroopers are assault troopers, why would them being the best in the Army have anything to do with them going on guard duty?

I think you're making too big a leap on the whole "elite" thing. I think stormies are "elite" to the regular Army as our US Marines are "elite" to the US Army. In fact, IIRC, Mike and Dr Saxton compare the stormtroopers to Marines. And Marines do guard facilities. And Marines can be used such as on Tatooine. I think they would've been better suited to it, as they have armor and equipment ready to go, and would've been easier to adapt to the desert enviroment than regular Army troops.

Of course, it could also be the "See to it personally, Commander" guy was a stormtrooper officer, so, who did he take?

Gil Hamilton wrote:Secondly, judging from Endor, Stormtroopers being the best is highly dubious. How could the Army do worse than the Stormtroopers did?

I don't know...the Ewoks seemed pretty damn strong. Lifting up boulders that were as wide as their own bodies, and as tall as their own heads, and tossing them down with apparent ease? I'm not at all surprised the stormies were in trouble when the Ewoks started clubbing them; those little teddy bears are strong critters.

Plus, as has been theorized elsewhere, the loss of the AT-ST was a major event. When the rest of the AT-STs were taken out, the Endor forces were screwed. The stormtroopers had no way of taking out their own walker. AFAIK, small arms alone, which is all they had, were insufficient to bring it down. It'd be like a bunch of infantrymen against an MBT with nothing but their rifles. Nothing they have will be able to take it out, and they're vastly outgunned. And remember, before this, despite being vastly outnumbered by native creatures with camoflauge that are apparently stronger than normal humans, and didn't start losing until their own equipment got turned against them. I wouldn't say the stormtroopers are incompetent.

Comosicus · Post by **Comosicus** » 2004-02-21 04:25am

RogueIce wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote:Secondly, judging from Endor, Stormtroopers being the best is highly dubious. How could the Army do worse than the Stormtroopers did?
I don't know...the Ewoks seemed pretty damn strong. Lifting up boulders that were as wide as their own bodies, and as tall as their own heads, and tossing them down with apparent ease? I'm not at all surprised the stormies were in trouble when the Ewoks started clubbing them; those little teddy bears are strong critters.

Plus, as has been theorized elsewhere, the loss of the AT-ST was a major event. When the rest of the AT-STs were taken out, the Endor forces were screwed. The stormtroopers had no way of taking out their own walker. AFAIK, small arms alone, which is all they had, were insufficient to bring it down. It'd be like a bunch of infantrymen against an MBT with nothing but their rifles. Nothing they have will be able to take it out, and they're vastly outgunned. And remember, before this, despite being vastly outnumbered by native creatures with camoflauge that are apparently stronger than normal humans, and didn't start losing until their own equipment got turned against them. I wouldn't say the stormtroopers are incompetent.

Maybe they couldn't bring the AT-AT in time to prevent the generator explosion. I don't know what happened after DS2 blew (I don't have the DVD). The AT-AT could have been on his way just as the fight took place, but it was too slow to arrive in time. ( I think he also had to clean a path trough the forest)

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-02-22 11:36am

According to Pax Emperica - The Wookie Annhiliation, the Stormtroopers are the Imperial Marines.

And the Stormies are superior in training to Army troops because the ISB says so and we have no contradiction.

However, Stormies are poorly suited toward massive battles and attrition actions. They're a mobile assault and "global policeman" force.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-02-22 05:15pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:We've never even seen Army troopers in the movies at all, everything is done by Stormtroopers, including the policework on Tatooine and guard duties.

Policework? Is there any indication that the stormtroopers on Tatooine are stationed there permanently and were not dropped from the ISD specifically to look for the droids?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-02-22 05:52pm

They're not there permanently.

Imperial Army troops are used for permanent, long-term occupations, major invasion and ground combat actions, most garrisons, etc.

Imperial Marines (Stormtroopers) are shock and assault troops, and are carried by Star Destroyers for multi-purpose short-term work.

We never really saw a full-scale Imperial invasion in the OT, so to say it somehow disproves the use of the Army as the primary body is not very valid. The only real weird thing was the stupid garrison at Endor being made of Marines, and that was hardly the only thing wrong with it (consider the "squad" containing NCOs from the Navy, for example).

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-02-22 07:00pm

Are walkers used by the Army at all? And was Max Veers an Army general, or a stormtrooper general?

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-02-22 07:07pm

The ISB says that the legion, commanded by a high colonel, is the largest unit in stormtrooper organization. I don't think there are any Stormy Generals. Veers was definitely Army, and I don't know if the Army employs walkers. I believe that walkers are mainly used for ground assault to bring down shield generators, so the Army would rely more on repuolsor vehicles.

pellaeons_scion · Post by **pellaeons_scion** » 2004-02-22 07:16pm

I kinda had the viewpoint that although we see lots of stormtroopers, that a great deal of them maybe just army or fleet personnel in the armor, and not true stormtroopers.

Maybe about the only time we saw real stormies was when they boarded the Tantive IV?

Just my thoughts..

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-02-22 07:24pm

I think all the stormies in the movies were indeed stormtroopers, though it's not unheard of for Army personell to use the armor. The trademark frowny-face mask isn't unique to the stormtroopers. It crosses all branches of the military.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-02-22 07:37pm

Maximilian Veers is a Major General in the Imperial Army; Major Generals command a Corps.

Now, MG Veers is a walker specialist, and perhaps he was assigned the Marine assault force at Hoth in lieu of a Marine General, as Dr. Saxton's speculation on the cadre of black-uniformed officers would suggest?

Or was the unit in question larger than a legion and thus beyond the scope of command by officers within the Marines, as the Imperial Sourcebook would suggest?

EDIT: The frown-face mask is used only by Stormtroopers and Imperial Fighter Pilots, to my knowledge. The AT-AT crew were Stormtrooper vehicle crewmen.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-02-22 07:39pm

Lazy Raptor wrote:[...] though it's not unheard of for Army personell to use the armor.

It isn't? It sure is to me. Got some quotes?

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-02-22 07:46pm

The Tantor brothers wore stormtrooper armor, but they're kind of a special case anyway. I don't think Army NCOs were regularly attached to stormtrooper units. As for the frowny face, the AT-AT driver's helmet is kind of a generic amor crewman's helmet; as I've seen them worn by other units (including vehicles normally thought to be under the Army).
Even helmet's that don't ape the face completely still steal some of the basic design characteristics.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-02-22 07:47pm

Lazy Raptor wrote:The Tantor brothers wore stormtrooper armor, but they're kind of a special case anyway.

The Tantor brothers were Stormtroopers; read your manual.

Lazy Raptor wrote:As for the frowny face, the AT-AT driver's helmet is kind of a generic amor crewman's helmet; as I've seen them worn by other units (including vehicles normally thought to be under the Army).

Examples would be nice.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-02-22 07:48pm

TIE pilots. Their helmets followed the same design.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-02-22 07:58pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The Tantor brothers were Stormtroopers; read your manual.

They shadowed a unit at their academy until the unit's leader allowed them in as 'honorary' stormtroopers. I can only assume that they were Army until this happened; as once they became officers, they were Army officers.

Examples would be nice.

The TR-SD for one.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-02-22 09:13pm

Lazy Raptor wrote:They shadowed a unit at their academy until the unit's leader allowed them in as 'honorary' stormtroopers. I can only assume that they were Army until this happened; as once they became officers, they were Army officers.

And this is exactly where you're at fault; The Imperial Sourcebook indicates that non-clones are inducted into the Stormtroopers from the other branches of the military.

Afterward, they are transfered out of the Marines; Dellis Tantor is recruited by Imperial Intelligence, and Brenn Tantor assumes his Army officer's commission he presumably earned upon graduation from the Academy before he was drafted into the Marines.

This is no way alters the fact they were Marines, and only Stormtroopers wear that armor.

Lazy Raptor wrote:The TR-SD for one.

...the what?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-02-22 09:19pm

Rogue 9 wrote:TIE pilots. Their helmets followed the same design.

Yes, but consider the only other case of Army crews: in the body armor and similar-attire to Veers, so why did the supposed Army crews of the AT-ATs choose Stormtrooper-esque battle armor? Why assume any other of the officers were Army than necessary; in fact the distinguishing characteristic of the Stormtroopers is their armor. We know Army crewmen show their face; thusly I believe these are Marine crewmen by contrast.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-02-22 09:29pm

If they've got full face helmets they are either Stormtroopers or TIE pilots, and with TIE pilots it makes sense because they are wearing spacesuits. Army helmets are the ones with "samurai" neck cover and the open face with googles. General Veers and the AT-ST crew at Endor are examples of this.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-02-22 10:14pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:And this is exactly where you're at fault; The Imperial Sourcebook indicates that non-clones are inducted into the Stormtroopers from the other branches of the military.

Okay then.

...the what?

The Shield Disabler, Tracked. It's used to strip the deflector shields off of enemy armor and disable them for capture. It's armor is fairly weak, and it has no weapons aside from a very slow ion cannon and whatever it uses to nullify the shields. Again, I'm assuming it's an Army vehicle because of its role and characteristics. It makes an appearance in Force Commander. The crewers wear the AT-AT driver uniform.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-02-22 10:25pm

Eh. I'm iffy on that. Even the cutscenes are deeply flawed in terms of uniforms; everyone's got the Piett-style ROTJ fuckup uniform, even Dellis, who's an Imperial Intel agent.

Under Suspension of Disbelief we regard it as a historical source, and this one is obviously inaccurate in terms of the uniforms it attributed to people.