Who would you rather serve under?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Vader. As most likely a non-bridge officer, I wouldn't have to worry. Thrawn is too much of an overrated fan favourite.

Besides, I'd rather have an assignment I can brag about, rather than one no one will have heard of.

[The Kernel]

You seem to be forgetting the crux of my point, that is the officer is responsible for the training of this man, who says that his own training isn't complete. He may be just saying that to get the heat off his arse, but the fact of the matter is Thrawn doesn't bother looking into it.

It wasn't the lack of training that Thrawn had a problem with. He said to Pelleon: "We are at war Captain. The Empire cannot afford to have crewman whose minds are so limited that they cannot adapt to new situations."

So why doesn't he punish Colclazure? Being the officer in charge of Pietersen he has ultimate responsibility. Better yet why doesn't Thrawn have Pietersen court-martialed? At least then you could properly evaluate what happened. Maybe Pietersen was full of shit; maybe he was telling the truth. Too late now, with a blaster wound in his chest...

Because Colclazure said that although he didn't remember training Pietersen on that particular issue, it was part of the standard training package. I got the impression that the solution to the problem was so obvious that Pietersen should have been able to figure out what was going on, even if he hadn't recieved that particular bit of training. The fact that he tried to blame his superiors for his incompetence is also a gross breech of military protocol.

No? Too bad, 'cause I will. Luke is one man in a fighter, and his escape was more trouble than it was worth - if Mara hadn't found him when she did then that would be 1 week Luke would spend in deep space, in a Jedi trance. Even if he escaped from them, Thrawn knew that when he jumps out of hyperspace his x-wing would be in disrepair.

I agree that he didn't kill Pietersen because of losing Skywalker. After all, he promoted the next man who did that.

[Tychu]

I would rather serve under Darth Vader, he instills fear in the hearts of his subordinates that if they fail he will kill them. He does beat out Thrawn though. I mean if you were to serve in the Imperial Navy, (army =stormtroopers really have no choice to serve) you have some Empire/Imperial pride and nationalism. Would you want to be ruled by an "outsider" a person that came from another "nation" that in their history wanted no part in contacting and trading with you? If i was a person in the Imperial Navy i would be a little suspicious in where his true feelings and alliances are, given if the events put him through a Chiss or Empire dicision

[McC]

Well, that brings up an interesting point: are we being asked who we'd prefer serving under given what we know, outside of the actual SW universe, or what we would have heard were we an actual part of the SW universe?

[Angie the Chiss Lord]

both, use your imagination

[Kuja]

I originally posted this in the 'Which side are you on?' thread to declare my Imperial loyalties. Now, I do it again:

Greasy smoke rose from the interior of Echo Base. Snowtroopers, grouped in tight firesquads, patrolled the area, their eyes peeled for any rebel scum that might have escaped. Another group stood at attention in two straight lines, awaiting orders. One trooper in particular, his uniform marking him a Lieutenant Commander, stood among the icy crags just outside the main hanger, waiting for his second-in-command's report. His cape billowed in the wind, revealing the vibrosword sheathed at his hip. Most Stormtroopers didn't go in for that kind of flash, but he was a bit special. If a member of the Imperial Recruiting Department had been present, they'd have taken a picture and sent it to every chilly world in the Empire, probably with the words "WE NEED YOU!" or maybe "JOIN UP NOW!" at the bottom. Beneath his helmet, the man grinned.

"Sir!" a voice registered in his right earpiece. He turned to see two of his men dragging a shell-shocked man dressed in furs towards him. When they got to five feet, they let go and saluted. He returned the salute, noting that the rebel looked ready to keel over. He touched his helmet mike with his tongue.

"Name, rank," he said flatly. The rebel blinked at him, like a barve caught in a skimmer's headlights. He reached out and shook the man's shoulder. "Name. Rank." The words came more harshly this time.

"M-Mantag Yullis," the man stammered. "Petty Officer." The Snowtrooper scowled. This man was useless. He was about to order his men to take the prisoner away when a black form exiting the hanger caught his eye. In an instant, he snapped to attention and saluted. His squad followed his example.

"Have you found something?" Lord Darth Vader questioned.

"Only a Petty Officer, milord," the trooper replied, dropping his salute. "I was about to order his imprisonment."

The Dark Lord's gaze didn't leave the trooper's face for even a moment. "Remove your helmet," he said.The man did so without hesitation. Immediately, the Hoth wind picked up his long white hair and blasted it across his face, but the trooper didn't flinch. He'd grown up in conditions like this. "We have met before," Vader said. There was not a trace of uncertainty in his voice.

"Yes milord. Zecundis campaign. My squad escorted you to...meet...with the governor."

"Yes," Vader said, more softly. Then, he turned and regarded the prisoner. "This man is useless," he said a moment later. "Dispose of him, then return to your dropship. We are leaving this world."

"Of course milord," the trooper said, but Vader had already turned to leave. By now, the prisoner looked almost as white as the snow.

"No, don't kill me!" He pleaded. "I surrender! I-"

"It's too late for that," the trooper replied. He tossed his helmet to one of his men, then drew his vibrosword and thumbed it on. "Lord Vader gave me an order," he said, a cruel smile forming on his features. "And one doesn't last long by disobeying Lord Vader's orders."

The trooper kicked out and caught the man in the stomach. The rebel bent over, gasping. The trooper sidestepped, spun his wrist, and brought the vibrosword down on the back of the man's neck. Flesh, muscle, nerves, and bone all gave way before the thrumming weapon. The rebel's head hit the ground a moment before the rest of him, his blood staining the perfect snow a bright red.

Kuja knelt and wiped the sword on the man's fur jacket and resheathed it. He held his hands out, and the trooper holding his helmet tossed it back to him. "You heard Lord Vader, gentlemen," he said. "We're heading back to Blizzard Nine. Move."

As his squad began the march back to the AT-ATs, Kuja took a quick look around. The base was already being abandoned, with fewer and fewer troopers exiting. At his feet, the rebel's blood was already starting to freeze. Kuja took a deep breath of the Hoth air before he put his helmet back on. How sweet it felt.

Hey, Thrawn is a decent choice, but Vader...there's just something about a Sith Lord that makes me want to trail along and add to the carnage.

[Rogue 9]

And I said it in that thread, that's precisely why I wouldn't want to serve under Vader.

[McC]

What's that from? A fanfic?

[Ghost Rider]

What's that from? A fanfic?

Actually it's something he came up on the fly.

Pretty nice really.

[McC]

Yeah, I agree, which is why I asked. Was wondering if there was anymore to it.

[Stofsk]

(Thrawn)"You were in charge of the tractor beam during our engagement with the starfighter."
(Pietersen)"Yes sir - but what happened wasn't my fault."
(Thrawn)"Explain."
(Pietersen)"The target did something to his acceleration compensator that killed his velocity vector-"
(Thrawn)"I'm aware of the facts. I'm waiting to hear why his escape wasn't your fault."
(Pietersen)"I was never properly trained for such an occurance."
...
(Thrawn to Colclazure, the latter of which has admitted that Pietersen's training was his responsibility)Did you, during that training, run through any scenarios similar to what just happened?"
(Colclazure)"I... don't remember, sir. The standard training package does include scenarios concerning loss of lock and subsequent reestablishment confirmation."

First bolded: Pietersen admits he was never properly trained for such an occurance. Note how he didn't fingerpoint his superior officer, or refer to him in name ie "Ensign Colclazure neglected his training." He says that his own training didn't cover it. Was he bullshitting? Was he being honest? Who the fuck knows, since he's DEAD.

Second bolded: Ensign Colclazure admits he doesn't remember training Pietersen in that specific instruction. Not stating his guilt; simply saying that he doesn't remember doing that scenario. Did he forget to do it? Did he fail to do it? Was it done? Did Pietersen screw it up then as well? How do we know? Oh yeah, we DON'T.

Third bolded: The standard training package includes the scenario which Luke desperately took advantage of. So now we come down to who's at fault: Pietersen, who in his defence states that his training is incomplete; and Colclazure who states that he can't remember training the man in that particular scenario, although the package does have the scenario in question. From this, people are assuming that Colclazure trained Pietersen in the scenario and the latter is simply lying or weaselling out of responsibility.

Bullshit. Colclazure admits he can't remember covering that scenario, while Pietersen admits Luke did something unfamiliar. A forthright investigation would have determined where the guilt lay, and the punishment would have been adminstered to that party. Thrawn, without any patience whatsoever, does the following:

(Thrawn)"Do you know the difference between an error and a mistake, Ensign?"
(Colclazure)"No, sir."
(Thrawn)"Anyone can make an error, Ensign. But the error doesn't become a mistake until you refuse to correct it."
(Rukh then kills Pietersen)

So why does he kill Pietersen? When demotion and being relieved of duty would be more understandable? Ask yourself: did Pietersen truly deserve to die? I mean was anyone killed when Luke escaped? Did the Empire suffer a tragic blow? Was the ship in danger? C'mon - executing Pietersen 'cause he talked back? Throw him in the fucking brig, send him down to a shithole garrison, but fucking KILL HIM? For doing a minor technical screwup?

It wasn't the lack of training that Thrawn had a problem with. He said to Pelleon: "We are at war Captain. The Empire cannot afford to have crewman whose minds are so limited that they cannot adapt to new situations."

People learn from their mistakes. Why shouldn't Pietersen be any different? And since he's supposed to have been trained and states that he wasn't, don't you think getting executed for being nothing more than surprised is a tad much?

Because Colclazure said that although he didn't remember training Pietersen on that particular issue, it was part of the standard training package. I got the impression that the solution to the problem was so obvious that Pietersen should have been able to figure out what was going on, even if he hadn't recieved that particular bit of training. The fact that he tried to blame his superiors for his incompetence is also a gross breech of military protocol.

But he didn't blame Colclazure, he didn't even name him. He simply stated his training hadn't covered that scenario - maybe he was telling the truth, maybe he actually hadn't been trained for that. How do we know? We don't. Thrawn executes him without trial, for in his own words a relatively minor setback - even if Skywalker escaped he was still stranded.

...Hardly the actions of a racist asshole (and nothing in TTT or HOT indicates, that Thrawn or his followers are racists), that only waits for an excuse to get rid of some subhuman (in that case subchiss) scum, that annoyed him.

Right, you must have missed the parts where Thrawn patronises everybody including Pellaeon, convincing everyone of his supposed brilliance - is that why Ackbar defeated him at Bilbringi, in spite of being ambushed by Thrawn (to be fair that is mainly Pellaeon's fault)? Or how about when Rukh put a knife in his chest for betraying the Noghri, who considers them nothing more than expendable commandos?

You're also forgetting that Thrawn wasn't even in the Hand of Thrawn duology. And I never said his followers were racist, only that Thrawn was (at the very least the Chiss are, and Thrawn shows subtle indications of being the same).

Oh, and how about this little tidbit from Heir to the Empire?

"Dispose of it. (Turns to Colclazure) "The error, Ensign, has been corrected. You may begin training a replacement."

Wow, Pietersen is referred to as an "it" after just being summarily executed for a minor technical screwup. No, Thrawn is just the fucking paragon of virtue, isn't he? No prejudices at all, right?

[McC]

I have to admit, when I read it, I got the impression that the crewman was lying to cover his tracks and that the Ensign had, in fact, trained him since it's part of the standard training package. One would assume this is not the only man the Ensign trained, given that one single crewman cannot man the tractor beam at all times. As such, of course he wouldn't remember specifically. "Ah, yes, I precisely remember training him for this exact thing." It's a little outlandish to expect him to remember that precise bit of information.

Further, the "it" statement doesn't strike me as racist, nor does Thrawn's "patronizing" attitude. I think Thrawn is "patronizing" because he regards everyone that serves under him as children. The "it" statement just refuses to grant any measure of respect to the guy that Thrawn has deemed a fuck-up. He might've said the same exact thing of a Chiss crewman who made the same error.

[Rogue 9]

C'mon - executing Pietersen 'cause he talked back? Throw him in the fucking brig, send him down to a shithole garrison, but fucking KILL HIM? For doing a minor technical screwup?

That's the Empire for you. And that's also why I'd rather serve under Ackbar than either of them or any other Imperial commander.

[Stofsk]

C'mon - executing Pietersen 'cause he talked back? Throw him in the fucking brig, send him down to a shithole garrison, but fucking KILL HIM? For doing a minor technical screwup?

That's the Empire for you. And that's also why I'd rather serve under Ackbar than either of them or any other Imperial commander.

Well I want to serve under Ackbar too - there's something about the Fishface. Plus x-wings rule.

McC: Of course it's outlandish to expect Colclazure to snap at his heels and give his training report on Pietersen - that wasn't my point. The thing I'm trying to state is that Thrawn had the man executed for a minor technical screwup. Pietersen showed lip. Fine. You know what? He should get thrown into the brig and rot for a month so that he can think: "Maybe talking back to a Grand Admiral isn't the best career move I could have made."

Thrawn could have demoted him, and sent him off the bridge. He could have relieved him of duty and confined him to barracks, doing shitheap jobs like being assigned to the waste disposal department. He could have thrown him off his ship onto a minor garrison. Any number of things. But no - he executed him without trial, just because. And people think this guy's the Shit?

As for his racism: I'm still convinced. He patronises everyone and your assertion that he considers them "children" makes little sense. They're not children; they're adult humans. Him patronising them is doubly irritating, as is every fucking Imperial getting wet pants when they see an imposter of him take command in the Hand of Thrawn duology. And referring to a killed man as "it" shows his own prejudices. He has no regard for Pietersen, and makes that quite clear. And people still vote for him?

[Trytostaydead]

Indeed. And as for the battle of Bilbringi.. I was under the impression that the rebels had amassed a pretty sizable force. And the battle, while grim, was not lost by any means. We know that Thrawn in a no-win situation will quickly pull out his troops to minimize his losses.. and Thrawn was by no means prepared to do so at Bilbringi.

So, Stofsk, would you rather serve under Lord Vader who would kill you for just about any reason or none?

Pieterson was also an abject lesson for the crew. And once again, it has nothing to do with being surprised.. remember the smuggler strike on Bilbringi. What did Thrawn do to the General? Just gave him harsh words.

Thrawn, as a warlord and conqueror is a fairly benign and generous one. He doesn't seek to wreak carnage.. he seeks stability. Once again, just look at Earth's military what the consequences for fuckups have been in the past. And imagine you're a warlord, who just lost something you put a lot of planning into, and a puny operator tells you, "well, I wasn't trained well.. so not my fault."

Then compare it with the next tractor beam fuck up, "I tried everything I could"

[Ghost Rider]

So, Stofsk, would you rather serve under Lord Vader who would kill you for just about any reason or none?

He killed Piett?

Let's see to date Vader killed...Admiral Ozzel for being incompent in a hyperspace tactic that costed them a clean and easy shot at capturing the Rebellion leaders

He kill Captain Needa for failing to use tractor beams and capturing the Falcon.

Yes, no reasons whatsoever.

[The Kernel]

First bolded: Pietersen admits he was never properly trained for such an occurance. Note how he didn't fingerpoint his superior officer, or refer to him in name ie "Ensign Colclazure neglected his training." He says that his own training didn't cover it. Was he bullshitting? Was he being honest? Who the fuck knows, since he's DEAD.

Wrong, Pietersen CLAIMS he was never trained for such an occurance. Also, by claiming such a thing, he was effectively fingering Colclazure since he was in charge of his training.

Second bolded: Ensign Colclazure admits he doesn't remember training Pietersen in that specific instruction. Not stating his guilt; simply saying that he doesn't remember doing that scenario. Did he forget to do it? Did he fail to do it? Was it done? Did Pietersen screw it up then as well? How do we know? Oh yeah, we DON'T.

He said that the standard training package includes training for loss of tractor beam locks. If Pietersen didn't know how to accomplish what is aparently a trivial task, then he is guilty of gross incompotence. And guess what? The Empire was in a state of war and incompotence that threatens the ship and its mission has to be punished severely.

Third bolded: The standard training package includes the scenario which Luke desperately took advantage of. So now we come down to who's at fault: Pietersen, who in his defence states that his training is incomplete; and Colclazure who states that he can't remember training the man in that particular scenario, although the package does have the scenario in question. From this, people are assuming that Colclazure trained Pietersen in the scenario and the latter is simply lying or weaselling out of responsibility.

Bullshit. Colclazure admits he can't remember covering that scenario, while Pietersen admits Luke did something unfamiliar. A forthright investigation would have determined where the guilt lay, and the punishment would have been adminstered to that party. Thrawn, without any patience whatsoever, does the following:

You think because Colclazure doesn't remember specifically addressing this training program that it didn't happen? That's a hell of an assumption, and from what Thrawn said, you can infer that even if he hadn't been trained, he should have easily been able to deduce what was going on as a trained tractor beam operator.

Besides, Thrawn's gift for reading other people has been proven numerous times and I would suspect that he knew that Pietersen was either lying or simply trying to weasel out of a mistake.

So why does he kill Pietersen? When demotion and being relieved of duty would be more understandable? Ask yourself: did Pietersen truly deserve to die? I mean was anyone killed when Luke escaped? Did the Empire suffer a tragic blow? Was the ship in danger? C'mon - executing Pietersen 'cause he talked back? Throw him in the fucking brig, send him down to a shithole garrison, but fucking KILL HIM? For doing a minor technical screwup?

A fucking torpedeo took out the tractor beam projector dumbass. Because of his mistake, the tractor beam emplacement was destroyed, and who knows how many people were killed/injured. During times of war, a death sentance is not totally out of line, especially since this is the Empire we are talking about.

Anyways, we know it wasn't anger over losing Skywalker that caused Thrawn to do what he did. Or did you forget that in The Last Command Skywalker is lost in a similar situation, but Thrawn discovers that the tractor operator had actually tried an innovative tactic to re-establish a tractor lock (which failed) and was promoted for it.

People learn from their mistakes. Why shouldn't Pietersen be any different? And since he's supposed to have been trained and states that he wasn't, don't you think getting executed for being nothing more than surprised is a tad much?

We don't know why he failed to relock the tractor, which according to Thrawn should have been a simple correction. Regardless, his incompotence led to damage and possible loss of life during wartime. I think the implication here is clear.

But he didn't blame Colclazure, he didn't even name him. He simply stated his training hadn't covered that scenario - maybe he was telling the truth, maybe he actually hadn't been trained for that. How do we know? We don't. Thrawn executes him without trial, for in his own words a relatively minor setback - even if Skywalker escaped he was still stranded.

Skywalker's escape had little to do with Thrawn's decision about Pietersen. The identical yet opposite encounter in The Last Command proves that much.

And Pietersen DID blame Colclazure by suggesting that his superiors hadn't trained him in that situation (which Colclazure oversaw).

Right, you must have missed the parts where Thrawn patronises everybody including Pellaeon, convincing everyone of his supposed brilliance - is that why Ackbar defeated him at Bilbringi, in spite of being ambushed by Thrawn (to be fair that is mainly Pellaeon's fault)? Or how about when Rukh put a knife in his chest for betraying the Noghri, who considers them nothing more than expendable commandos?

Thrawn was grooming Pellaoen as his protege, I hardly think their encounters together should be seen as anything more then that of a teacher and his student. Thrawn was capable of inspiring well enough that he got command of the Imperial Remnant in the first place, not to mention the fanatical following of Admiral Parck and the rest of the humans at the Hand of Thrawn.

Wow, Pietersen is referred to as an "it" after just being summarily executed for a minor technical screwup. No, Thrawn is just the fucking paragon of virtue, isn't he? No prejudices at all, right?

He's not a paragon of virtue, but I hardly consider him calling a corpse "it" as definitive proof of racism.

[Stofsk]

So, Stofsk, would you rather serve under Lord Vader who would kill you for just about any reason or none?

Oh for fuck's sake - did you read my original reason for choosing Vader? It was on page one of this thread. Vader kills Ozzel, a man who fucked up royally in the fleet's maneuvres. He kills Needa, a man who let the Falcon get away. Does he kill Stormtrooper Joe, for tripping over at Hoth? What about Shuttle Pilot Johnsen, for bumping the transport as it landed? What about Piett, who also missed the Falcon? Jesus Christ, Vader doesn't kill just anyone for the fucking hell of it. He killed TWO people who were incompetent, when they were in positions of command and authority where incompetence can get the ship destroyed or the fleet routed. Get the fuck over it.

Pieterson was also an abject lesson for the crew. And once again, it has nothing to do with being surprised.. remember the smuggler strike on Bilbringi. What did Thrawn do to the General? Just gave him harsh words.

Thrawn, as a warlord and conqueror is a fairly benign and generous one. He doesn't seek to wreak carnage.. he seeks stability.

Oh how fucking generous. He gives harsh words to a General, yet executes a conscript without trial. Yeah, that's some benign leadership.

Once again, just look at Earth's military what the consequences for fuckups have been in the past. And imagine you're a warlord, who just lost something you put a lot of planning into, and a puny operator tells you, "well, I wasn't trained well.. so not my fault."

Then compare it with the next tractor beam fuck up, "I tried everything I could"

I see. And to you summarily execution without trial is the way to handle Pietersen? Not the somewhat restrained method of rank demotion and reassignment, perhaps even brig time for being slightly defiant? For a minor technical screwup?

Re: Battle of Bilbringi. So if Thrawn had overwhelming numbers why didn't Pellaeon take advantage of that? Maybe because there were no overwhelming numbers, and Ackbar's fleet wasn't weaker than Thrawn's (it had simply been surprised and ambushed). Maybe Ackbar could've won if Thrawn hadn't died, we don't know the outcome of that battle. People wank over Thrawn all the time - why? He didn't expect the Noghri assassin blade to imbed itself in his chest. He was outmaneuvred by Han Solo and Lando at Sluis Van, Karrde at Mykyr, smugglers at Bilbringi etc.

[Stofsk]

A fucking torpedeo took out the tractor beam projector dumbass. Because of his mistake, the tractor beam emplacement was destroyed, and who knows how many people were killed/injured. During times of war, a death sentance is not totally out of line, especially since this is the Empire we are talking about.

Try 0 dumbarse, as the narration states that the loss of 1 of 10 tractor beam projectors was a "relatively minor loss." If the ship was significantly damaged and people were killed then Pietersen should have been executed for fucking up. Well, that never happened. And you know what? There was no fucking trial either.

We don't know why he failed to relock the tractor, which according to Thrawn should have been a simple correction. Regardless, his incompotence led to damage and possible loss of life during wartime. I think the implication here is clear.

Excuse me? Do you want to quote the fucking text which states Thrawn referring to the scenario as a "simple correction?" Hint: he does not. We don't know how difficult the scenario is for a tractor operator; all we know is Pietersen failed to do it, and there is some form of training that can guard against it. That's it. No more detail is forthcoming. Thrawn most certainly doesn't say the maneuvre was "trivial." In fact, he doesn't say anything to that effect to either Pietersen or Colclazure.

Skywalker's escape had little to do with Thrawn's decision about Pietersen. The identical yet opposite encounter in The Last Command proves that much.

So he kills Pietersen for what, talking back? If it wasn't anger then what was it for?

And Pietersen DID blame Colclazure by suggesting that his superiors hadn't trained him in that situation (which Colclazure oversaw).

And so Thrawn doesn't bother finding out if Colclazure's training regimen was spot on? Do you remember the scene where Pietersen was court martialed?

Thrawn was grooming Pellaoen as his protege, I hardly think their encounters together should be seen as anything more then that of a teacher and his student. Thrawn was capable of inspiring well enough that he got command of the Imperial Remnant in the first place, not to mention the fanatical following of Admiral Parck and the rest of the humans at the Hand of Thrawn.

Thrawn was dead in HoD. The Imperials were getting hard ons for an imposter.

He's not a paragon of virtue, but I hardly consider him calling a corpse "it" as definitive proof of racism.

Perhaps not definitive proof. But certainly shows a casually brutal disregard for a person's life.

Alright, I'm going to repeat myself with this but what the hell: Can someone tell me how summarily executing a crewman (note: not someone in authority or command, one of the grunts or shitkickers) for an admittedly minor technical screwup which leads to a minor setback, which Thrawn feels confident they'll recover from, is justifiable? Especially when he was killed without trial? Especially when the crewman wasn't relieved of his post and taken under arrest?

[Trytostaydead]

Did YOU even read my earlier posts? There was a good deal of difference in the mistakes made between Pietersen and the others, and how they conducted themselves AFTER the mistake was made (mistake vs. error). Note, Thrawn made a distinct point to ask whether he was trained any differently because of his conscript status. Other people made much more ROYALLY fucked up mistakes than Pietersen yet he died, why? Because Thrawn just felt the need to kill something that day?

..I forget in which book I read this, but junior officers were scared out of their wits to bring Vader messages.

And I never said Thrawn had the more overwhelming force at Bilbringi.

Also, as people have mentioned.. remember, this is the Empire, under these emergency situations.. I don't think I've read once about a trial. Either a summary demotion or execution. Then again, if they were moral idols, then they wouldn't have had this whole rebellion problem to being with.

But morality aside, perhaps Pietersen should've just been reassigned somewhere else or thrown into a penal colony. But it did a remarkable job to snap the crew out of complacency, and remind them that they are at war regardless of whether they were volunteers or conscript you better do your damn job.

Saying fuck and calling people names do not make your argument stronger either.

[Trytostaydead]

Minor setback? Unless you call setting up an ambush using no less than an interdictor (I think.. can't remember), a freighter and an Imperial Stardestroyer, the flagship no less a MINOR event. Plus the ability if they captured Skywalker to give them an additional playing card when dealing with C'Both minor...

[Stofsk]

Did YOU even read my earlier posts?

Yes I did. However I never revealed my ignorance of your earlier posts, whereas you did. You asked me why I chose Vader when I had already answered that question in this thread's first page.

...Note, Thrawn made a distinct point to ask whether he was trained any differently because of his conscript status...

That's a good point. But if you reread my posts you'll not find me at all defending Pietersen's actions. You will find me criticising Thrawn for executing a man without trial, without even being arrested, without any form of dignity whatsoever - all for a minor technical screwup.

Other people made much more ROYALLY fucked up mistakes than Pietersen yet he died, why? Because Thrawn just felt the need to kill something that day?

To be honest I don't know why Thrawn killed him - relieving him and arresting him would fit his character, as Thrawn isn't one to waste. Why he killed Pietersen is a genuine mystery to me. Discipline? Too extreme to warrant the crime.

...I forget in which book I read this, but junior officers were scared out of their wits to bring Vader messages.

Source? Because otherwise...

And I never said Thrawn had the more overwhelming force at Bilbringi.

Fair enough. I was just venting my annoyance at the lack of climactic battle for TLC.

...But it did a remarkable job to snap the crew out of complacency, and remind them that they are at war regardless of whether they were volunteers or conscript you better do your damn job.

Oh no doubt - watching someone get shot for making a minor screwup tends to make people jump higher and snap their heels quicker. Was he right in doing so? Was there an alternative that didn't have to deprive the Chimera of a crewman - the Empire was experiencing man shortages, remember?

Saying fuck and calling people names do not make your argument stronger either.

Did I call you names? Oh, I'm sorry - still doesn't change your style over substance fallacy.

Minor setback? Unless you call setting up an ambush using no less than an interdictor (I think.. can't remember), a freighter and an Imperial Stardestroyer, the flagship no less a MINOR event. Plus the ability if they captured Skywalker to give them an additional playing card when dealing with C'Both minor...

It was a minor setback because Thrawn intimates as such to Pellaeon, for fuck's sake! At the end of the chapter? Remember Thrawn telling Pellaeon that Luke's escape was temporary? How he could only have jumped 1 light year away, and he was stuck wherever he was because his fighter's x-wing was burnt out? And jesus - calling out an interdictor is a fantastic expense of resources... they only have a hundred of them...

[Rogue 9]

Source? Because otherwise...

No no, he's right. I'll see if I can find the source, but I distinctly remember it as well. The junior officers drew lots to see who would have to deliver news to Vader.

I might just be pulling this out of my ass, but I think it may have been that prisoner in the Black Fleet Crisis from the Jag Island penal colony telling that to Leia. But I'm not sure at all. Its somewhere, though. -

[Stofsk]

Source? Because otherwise...

No no, he's right. I'll see if I can find the source, but I distinctly remember it as well. The junior officers drew lots to see who would have to deliver news to Vader.

Oh those poor junior officers. Y'know Vader ain't such a bad guy - he did give Chewbacca Threepio to fix on Bespin.

Besides those junior officers *probably* weren't in any danger given that we only see Vader execute two people onscreen, and both really deserved it.

[McC]

Did I call you names? Oh, I'm sorry - still doesn't change your style over substance fallacy.

Totally off-topic, but something that really irks me when I see it. If you're referencing something other than the sole remark of his you quoted when replying with the above, then I apologize in advance.

<soapbox>

He didn't use it as an excuse to ignore your points, as such it's not a debating fallacy.

Just because someone asks you to be polite (or rather, less rude) doesn't mean they're dodging your points, which is what the style-over-substance fallacy addresses. People throw around "style over substance!" around here any time anybody makes a remark about someone else swearing up a storm or being insulting and it's totally bogus. The way I read his comment, he'd rather you cut back on the insulting tone -- it's unnecessary and doesn't add any credibility to your point. It doesn't subtract either; it's just unnecessary -- if he said he was disregarding your point because of how you presented it, then you'd be right to claim style over subtance. He never said that.

People need to stop incorrectly using style-over-substance as a shield for being rude. It's totally unnecessary.

</soapbox>

Now, on topic. What you're arguing seems to boil down to essentially this line:

There was no fucking trial either.

My only reaction is:

Of course there wasn't a trial. The Empire doesn't try its personnel for errors. The superior summarily executes the officer or NCO s/he deems responsible for the problem. Vader exhibits this, Thrawn exhibits it less frequently (due in part, I suspect, to the personnel shortage you mentioned).

If you're upset over Imperial policy, that's cool, but I don't think you can really blame Thrawn for something like this anymore than you can blame Vader, who has exhibited instances of being even more free with his subordinates' lives. He only killed two officers in the movies, but how many has he killed in the EU? I'm fairly sure I've read reference to a few occasions, although I admit I cannot remember in which texts these occasions were. One could argue that EU isn't a good example, I suppose, but Thrawn hails from EU, so it's necessarily included in the discussion, I would think.