Was the Rebel Alliance right?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

I'll be the first to admit the NR is fucking incompetant. :cries: Why'd the EU authors have to urinate on GL's idealistic ending? Why can't the good guys win and do better?

My lamentations exactly. But remember that Lucas supposedly approved the shit they wrote.

Perhaps the true lesson of Star Wars is:
Before replacing something that looks bad, make sure your Alternative isn't worse.

Or:
It is impossible to create a genuinely working Galactic Government without the massive employment of demigods

Come on, canonically, the Rebels were rather prudent, competent, and fair. They were efficient and practical. They weren't making massive speeches about all kinds of shit. They blew up the Death Stars to defend themselves and supporters from annhiliation. They killed Palpatine because he was a despot.

They were OK up until ROTJ, but really, the attack on the Death Star II was at best desperate. Death Star I only took the implantation of a tiny structural flaw and a small mis-judgment of the odds due to unforseeable factors. Death Star II took the injection of massive amounts of stupidity, overconfidence, and luck.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Well they had to attack the Death Stars. And extrinsically, GL started to lose the roll with ROTJ.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

My changes to the Imperial system would've been:

These are not changes. These are dismantlements. You just said "Create the New Republic with a few Grand Moffs and a few extra units."

[Illuminatus Primus]

Hardly. The Empire had political power invested at the local level; the Republics did not. The Republics ran everything out of the Senate.

The defining differences between the Empire and Republic were the decentralisation of political power, the vast increase in centralisation of military forces, and a total lack of responsibility to the people by the government.

An ideal state would retain the first two, and given the Senate back control of the central government.

[Crazedwraith]

Hardly. The Empire had political power invested at the local level; the Republics did not. The Republics ran everything out of the Senate.

Try Reading HotT Doulogy wear its stats the NR is mocing power from the senate to local sector/planet governments.

[Galvatron]

Going solely by what we know from canon, I think the Rebel Alliance was definitely justified in toppling the Emperor after he disbanded the Senate.

[Embracer Of Darkness]

Does this thread serve any other purpose than to Empire-wank? We know the Empire are evil, that's the whole point, and we've discussed this before (more than once).

[Stormbringer]

Does this thread serve any other purpose than to Empire-wank? We know the Empire are evil, that's the whole point, and we've discussed this before (more than once).

You don't like it, don't fucking read it.


And most people aren't wanking off to the Empire. In fact most people, while acknowledging the Empire's good points, agree that it was evil. Just because we don't instantly fall in love with the disfunctional Republic the misguided rebels fought to bring back doesn't mean any of us are particularly in love with the Empire.

[YT300000]

Personally, I'd rather live under the Empire. At least, until Palpatine implemented his force-users-rule-da-galaxy system. And even then, it might be better than being in the NR.

[Tychu]

Palpatine had to go, his main goal from Senator of NAboo to Supreme Chancelor of the Republic was to get power and more power. Truthfully i just didnt like him in the prequel movies. But once i read Empire#61 i downright hate him.
One thing that will help me, and maby some others is to know who actually wins the Clone Wars. if it is the Republic than the Empire is based on builing up from the Republics ashes and mistakes with a power hungry leader. If it is the Sepratists the Empire is based upon the corrupt political and commercial leaders that plauged the Old Republic with a power hungry leader. I like the former better but the 2 outcomes may have effected the way Palpatine controled his Empire and how people felt to oust him.

[Tychu]

Empire#61=Republic#61

[Guardsman Bass]

Hardly. The Empire had political power invested at the local level; the Republics did not. The Republics ran everything out of the Senate.

Really? I was under the impression that the Republic generally allowed governments in the Galaxy to do what they want, and didn't actually force anyone into it , hence Leia's troubles in Jedi Search in convincing systems to join the Republic "that wanted no participation in another galaxy-wide federation." This is quite a contrast to the Empire's "local level," consisting of appointing military governors to rule over systems from the top down.

The defining differences between the Empire and Republic were the decentralisation of political power, the vast increase in centralisation of military forces, and a total lack of responsibility to the people by the government.

On whose side? The empire or the Republic? The republic had the former(hence the bullshit pulled by Viqi Shesh) Centralization of military forces? Both sides tried to do this, but the Empire was more successful(we think; remember how it quickly collapsed in warlordism following Palpatine's death). Total lack of responsibiity to the people? At least this is theoretically possible in the Republic if the local government is a democracy. No chance if you live under a Moff in the Empire.

An ideal state would retain the first two, and given the Senate back control of the central government.[/quote]

Personally, I think the Senate was one of the biggest problems of the Republic; they needed more checks on its power, and a stronger executive authority.

[PainRack]

Hardly. The Empire had political power invested at the local level; the Republics did not. The Republics ran everything out of the Senate.

The defining differences between the Empire and Republic were the decentralisation of political power, the vast increase in centralisation of military forces, and a total lack of responsibility to the people by the government.

Actually, the Empire centralised policital power at sector and Imperial Centre while decentralising military power. Traditional authority that would had been done at sector level, while under scrutiny by that of the Republic Senate was shifted to the governor(a key point would had been mobilisation of sector military forces, a power invested in the Senate that was shifted to the sector moff) while Imperial decrees, taxation was issued from the Imperial palace.

The fact that the Empire recourse to various sectors military forces not cooperating with each other was to create Oversectors suggest that the Empire burcreacury was not up to central control of the Empire military might.

[Murazor]

Yes. The empire was evil. The Rebels had every right to revolt against Palpatine. And yes: Palpatine was an overconfident evil madman.

[Rogue 9]

Not their strongest point, I agree. But at least it wasn't of humans.

*Proton torpedo strike on your position.* Are you INSANE?!? You're telling me that Ackbar, for instance, who was one of the foremost military minds of the Alliance and quite a bit better than your average Imperial commander, was somehow less sentient, or at least less worthy of freedom in some way, than a human?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Really? I was under the impression that the Republic generally allowed governments in the Galaxy to do what they want, and didn't actually force anyone into it , hence Leia's troubles in Jedi Search in convincing systems to join the Republic "that wanted no participation in another galaxy-wide federation." This is quite a contrast to the Empire's "local level," consisting of appointing military governors to rule over systems from the top down.

Exactly. Look at all the stupid conflicts of the post-ROTJ EU; you have the NR having to deal with every little local squabble. Palpatine delegated authority and strength to his local subordinates. Sending Wedge and Ackbar for every stupid little crisis is like Palpatine dispatching Thrawn to every other revolt. Palpatine delegated power locally, while keeping it in check with a sizable reserve of centralised might.

The prequel-era old Republic was incompetant to exercise the enormous quantity of power invested in it by the system, and had no might to keep the various factions and abusers in check. The Empire was autocratic, yes, but it did distribute power. Consider old-fashioned feudal monarchies; they were extraordinarily despotic, but they were decentralised in the political administration. The old Republic had the Senate oversee even the most local disputes, and was incompetant not only to settle all those disputes, but also to maintain law and order due to an emasculation of both local and central armed forces.

On whose side? The empire or the Republic? The republic had the former(hence the bullshit pulled by Viqi Shesh)

Viqi Shesh is a good example. Why did a Senator have so much clout over the refugees every movement. Couldn't this not have been handled by the participating sectors?

Centralization of military forces? Both sides tried to do this, but the Empire was more successful(we think; remember how it quickly collapsed in warlordism following Palpatine's death).

Actually, the vast majority of Imperial military might references is local and/or sectorial. The reserve forces and Core commands are barely dealt with. The Imperial Sourcebook considers only sector-level commands, and then mostly Rimworld style forces.

It was precisely the investment of military might in nigh-all-powerful local military governors which caused the warlordism.

Contrastingly, the New Republic sector-level military forces are often arrayed similar to the old Republic, with most sectors too poor or unwilling to maintain significant forces. The central forces are largely overstretched, too small, and incompetent.

Total lack of responsibiity to the people? At least this is theoretically possible in the Republic if the local government is a democracy. No chance if you live under a Moff in the Empire.

Total irrelevent to the discussion. I'm talking about the centralisation of political administration of the galaxy.

An ideal state would retain the first two, and given the Senate back control of the central government.

Yes, an ideal state would maintain the military might of the Empire, in democratic control.

Personally, I think the Senate was one of the biggest problems of the Republic; they needed more checks on its power, and a stronger executive authority.

They needed to grow a spine and bequeath power to the local assemblies.

[PainRack]

Exactly. Look at all the stupid conflicts of the post-ROTJ EU; you have the NR having to deal with every little local squabble. Palpatine delegated authority and strength to his local subordinates. Sending Wedge and Ackbar for every stupid little crisis is like Palpatine dispatching Thrawn to every other revolt. Palpatine delegated power locally, while keeping it in check with a sizable reserve of centralised might.

There's something that should be noted though. The New Republic, being newly set up had no established insitutions to fall back upon, and as such, were forced to rely on its central authority to smother new crisis. Compare pre Dark Empire NR to the more mature NR in Before the Storm, etc etc etc. (or if I wishes, KJA era and post KJA )

Channels of authority, sectorial representation and so forth had been delinated. Various committees, similar to those set up in the US Senate had control over various matters (Before the Storm, Ackbar briefing on the Fifth Fleet) and in the Bothawui crisis, invididual sector automony and control over local forces was seen. Given more time, and a larger group of Jedi or Alpha Blue, the NR could had matured to an more effective governing system.

Viqi Shesh is a good example. Why did a Senator have so much clout over the refugees every movement. Couldn't this not have been handled by the participating sectors?

Errr, no. The galaxywide evacuation and resettlement of the refugees would had dictated central authority, especially the authority to force local sectors/worlds to accept refugees. SELCORE proved to had too little central authority in fact, as local worlds could reject her dictates(Raltitir)

Contrastingly, the New Republic sector-level military forces are often arrayed similar to the old Republic, with most sectors too poor or unwilling to maintain significant forces. The central forces are largely overstretched, too small, and incompetent.

We seen nothing of the OR sector military forces. Indeed, all EU references indicate a powerful core of military might. The Invinicibles, Z-95s, Y-wings, Kuat and Correllian fleets, all indicate a naval corps of some strenght.

The NR problem lay in the fact that it was a new government, with the attendent problems of lack of funds, equipment, personnel, lack of insitutions, tradition, recruiting and etc etc etc. This was accerebarated by the ongoing Galactic Civil war that did not end until the Bothawui crisis.

A similar analogy would had been Chiang Kai Shek KMT government in the 20s-30s. The various war military colleges could not provide sufficient officers and NCOs, virtually no staff training was possible, all due to the lack of resources, instructors and an ongoing civil conflict that prevented the resting and setting up of a trained officer corp.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

There's something that should be noted though. The New Republic, being newly set up had no established insitutions to fall back upon, and as such, were forced to rely on its central authority to smother new crisis. Compare pre Dark Empire NR to the more mature NR in Before the Storm, etc etc etc. (or if I wishes, KJA era and post KJA )

But military power is very centralized in the BFS era. What's the first thing they wanted to do with the Federal level 5th Fleet? Send it to suppress Piracy!

On a galactic scale, if you take all of the NR as a country, piracy is the rough equivalent of an armed robbery. Can you imagine this scene in the US?

"We've created this new 5th Division and we don't have aggressive external enemies right now. Where do we send it?"
"I don't know. We don't want to look too aggressive, or the Senate will bitch about the military intervening in domestic affairs."
"Ah, I know! The Mayor of Detroit is screaming for help. There had been six cases of robbery in there recently."
"Great, send the new 5th Division there to patrol and lock it down."

Really. Sigh...

[Illuminatus Primus]

There's something that should be noted though. The New Republic, being newly set up had no established insitutions to fall back upon, and as such, were forced to rely on its central authority to smother new crisis.

That's silly. Some of the Imperial Sector Groups forces must have defected, and the time and territory they have had, when compared to the construction of the Death Star II should allow for considerable mobilisation.

Compare pre Dark Empire NR to the more mature NR in Before the Storm, etc etc etc. (or if I wishes, KJA era and post KJA )

The "mature" NR in Before the Storm encompasses less than 1% of the Empire's territory. And again, none of the retreating forces surrendered? No one can build fleets anymore? What about the NR in the five years up to Thrawn return?

Channels of authority, sectorial representation and so forth had been delinated. Various committees, similar to those set up in the US Senate had control over various matters (Before the Storm, Ackbar briefing on the Fifth Fleet) and in the Bothawui crisis, invididual sector automony and control over local forces was seen. Given more time, and a larger group of Jedi or Alpha Blue, the NR could had matured to an more effective governing system.

Perhaps, but this hardly changes the assertion that the NR was centralised, and the worse off for it.

Errr, no. The galaxywide evacuation and resettlement of the refugees would had dictated central authority, especially the authority to force local sectors/worlds to accept refugees. SELCORE proved to had too little central authority in fact, as local worlds could reject her dictates(Raltitir)

Conceded.

We seen nothing of the OR sector military forces. Indeed, all EU references indicate a powerful core of military might.

Let's give you a hint here. In the new invasion of the Core by the First Confederacy Fleet, Operation DURGE'S LANCE, the defence of Duro is maintained by seven Acclamator-class troopships, one Victory-class Star Destroyer, and a handful of Dreadnought Heavy Cruisers.

In Rogue Planet and the Stark Hyperspace War, we see that the Republic in most of its territory, is lucky to scrape together militarised versions of the Radiant-class consular cruiser and at best, Dreadnought-class "Heavy Cruisers."

The Invinicibles, Z-95s, Y-wings, Kuat and Correllian fleets, all indicate a naval corps of some strenght.

OR military might is extraordinarily locally concentrated in the centres of power and money in the galaxy.

The NR problem lay in the fact that it was a new government, with the attendent problems of lack of funds, equipment, personnel, lack of insitutions, tradition, recruiting and etc etc etc. This was accerebarated by the ongoing Galactic Civil war that did not end until the Bothawui crisis.

The Imperial Remnant, that bastard confederation of warlord kingdoms, managed to piece together an efficient and functioning sectorial administration and Sector Groups, fifteen years past Endor. The post-Isard Empire managed to reform and restore the Ubiqtorate, a large bureaucracy over one of the most important groups: Imperial Intelligence.

A similar analogy would had been Chiang Kai Shek KMT government in the 20s-30s. The various war military colleges could not provide sufficient officers and NCOs, virtually no staff training was possible, all due to the lack of resources, instructors and an ongoing civil conflict that prevented the resting and setting up of a trained officer corp.

Having shitty officers isn't quite the same as barely trying to build any appreciable force of ships.

[PainRack]

That's silly. Some of the Imperial Sector Groups forces must have defected, and the time and territory they have had, when compared to the construction of the Death Star II should allow for considerable mobilisation.

Yes, however, we do know from the various novels that those resources were added to the battered central fleets, not used to set up regional navies. For example, in the X-wing series, captured and defected Imperial warships were immediately added to Ackbar forces in the battle for Coruscant. In the Courtship of Princess Leia, we seen how the Rebel Alliance devoted defected Imperial warships to escorting Princess Leia and presumably other senior Rebel leadership. Up to the NJO period, we still saw how former Imperial vessels, from the VSD that swung by to assist Leia to the Lancer Frigate defending the Republic cruiser Far Thunder being allocated to centralised fleet forces.

This all suggest that the Republic was never able to have the excess military capability to staff and control regional navies.

The "mature" NR in Before the Storm encompasses less than 1% of the Empire's territory. And again, none of the retreating forces surrendered? No one can build fleets anymore? What about the NR in the five years up to Thrawn return?

May I remind you once again of Chiang Kai Shek government in China? Despite the defection of numerous warlords to the KMT cause, the KMT still did not have an effective regional or central army. And the KMT had 20 years to build up their forces, and even in 1930s, they were still unable to train sufficient officers for their central armies, much less the various warlord armies and no staff training was available at all. This despite having both German, Russian and other foreign advisors and outright mercenaries to assist them, numerous loans from various Western countries as well as Russian military aid(Whompoa academy)

Perhaps, but this hardly changes the assertion that the NR was centralised, and the worse off for it.

The NR certainly lacked the ability to have central authority over the galaxy, however, organisantions which lack a strong central authority are usually unable to preside over a multi-state government. Note: The UN.

Certainly, Athens showed that the NR form of democracy was possible.

Let's give you a hint here. In the new invasion of the Core by the First Confederacy Fleet, Operation DURGE'S LANCE, the defence of Duro is maintained by seven Acclamator-class troopships, one Victory-class Star Destroyer, and a handful of Dreadnought Heavy Cruisers.

In Rogue Planet and the Stark Hyperspace War, we see that the Republic in most of its territory, is lucky to scrape together militarised versions of the Radiant-class consular cruiser and at best, Dreadnought-class "Heavy Cruisers."

We also learn from Shatterpoint, the Republic military might was over-stretched and diffused throughout the galaxy in an vain attempt to defend everywhere at the same time. We also know from ICS that prior to the Clone Wars, Republic sector fleets did not have galaxy-spanning range.

Certainly, there must had been some form of military in the Naboo region as the TF were afraid of drawing Republic attention to their blockade.

The Imperial Remnant, that bastard confederation of warlord kingdoms, managed to piece together an efficient and functioning sectorial administration and Sector Groups, fifteen years past Endor. The post-Isard Empire managed to reform and restore the Ubiqtorate, a large bureaucracy over one of the most important groups: Imperial Intelligence.

The post Isard Empire also was incapable of refitting the TIE fleet to encompass the new TIE interceptors, this compared to the NR which managed to replace her central fleets with new models of X-wings and even bring online a new generation of E-wing fighters.
The Empire was also stuck to using standardised models of warships, while the NR was able to field new designs and models of warships.

As for the Remmant governence, size matters.

Having shitty officers isn't quite the same as barely trying to build any appreciable force of ships.

Of course, should I then mention that Chinese divisions were regarded as having only 1/10 the firepower of IJA divisions, that the chinese were incapable of conducting standardised training for new divisions, standardising military equipment and doctrine, etc etc etc etc?

EDIT: May I also point out that in our context, it was the question of why the Republic always sent the same old generals to put out the fire? In the KMT era, the only successful, indeed, capable military forces were the various armies, led by the Whompoa Academy first cadre. They were utilised as fire-brigades, in the same manner as the german general Model.
The chinese military inability to even train sufficient officers and NCOs to man their armies was a serious obstruction to the expansion of the Canton armies.

[PainRack]

But military power is very centralized in the BFS era. What's the first thing they wanted to do with the Federal level 5th Fleet? Send it to suppress Piracy!

On a galactic scale, if you take all of the NR as a country, piracy is the rough equivalent of an armed robbery. Can you imagine this scene in the US?

"We've created this new 5th Division and we don't have aggressive external enemies right now. Where do we send it?"
"I don't know. We don't want to look too aggressive, or the Senate will bitch about the military intervening in domestic affairs."
"Ah, I know! The Mayor of Detroit is screaming for help. There had been six cases of robbery in there recently."
"Great, send the new 5th Division there to patrol and lock it down."

Really. Sigh...

Do you know what was the first task of the RAN?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The post Isard Empire also was incapable of refitting the TIE fleet to encompass the new TIE interceptors, this compared to the NR which managed to replace her central fleets with new models of X-wings and even bring online a new generation of E-wing fighters.
The Empire was also stuck to using standardised models of warships, while the NR was able to field new designs and models of warships.

As for the Remmant governence, size matters.

Easy counters:

1) If you assume rough technological stasis, then the ISD may suit Imperial doctrine just fine and thus require no change. The NR wants a Different Tactical Doctrine (like ripping all the range out of their ships,) so they built new ones.
2) One could consider how ridiculously few the NR is. When your whole Central Forces are as big as somebody elses' Sector Group, it is easier to re-equip them.

Assuming they made it work in Greece, by the way, doesn't mean it'd work on the far greater galactic scale, or that the NR's leadership could pull it off.

[PainRack]

Easy counters:

1) If you assume rough technological stasis, then the ISD may suit Imperial doctrine just fine and thus require no change. The NR wants a Different Tactical Doctrine (like ripping all the range out of their ships,) so they built new ones.
2) One could consider how ridiculously few the NR is. When your whole Central Forces are as big as somebody elses' Sector Group, it is easier to re-equip them.

1) Not when Imperial Doctrine had already stated that ISDs require more anti-starfigther capability, thus the coming out of the ISD II model.

2. Yet, up to the Imperial Remmant period, Paelloen was using Katanna style dreadnaughts and ISD Is.

It is clear that if the 200 ISDs of the Remmant had older models involved, that the Remmant shipyards were at one point all tied up in capital ship construction, maintenance and refitting, or how the Post-Isard Empire was incapable of refitting older ships to capitalise on new tactics and doctrines, the NR did not fare so bad in her reconstruction of the fleets.

Assuming they made it work in Greece, by the way, doesn't mean it'd work on the far greater galactic scale, or that the NR's leadership could pull it off.

Of course. But there has been cases of success.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Easy counters:

1) If you assume rough technological stasis, then the ISD may suit Imperial doctrine just fine and thus require no change. The NR wants a Different Tactical Doctrine (like ripping all the range out of their ships,) so they built new ones.
2) One could consider how ridiculously few the NR is. When your whole Central Forces are as big as somebody elses' Sector Group, it is easier to re-equip them.

1) Not when Imperial Doctrine had already stated that ISDs require more anti-starfigther capability, thus the coming out of the ISD II model.

2. Yet, up to the Imperial Remmant period, Paelloen was using Katanna style dreadnaughts and ISD Is.

The ISD-II model had better antiair firepower? That's news for me. Better antiship power, yes. But antiair? Canonically, they even took out those secondary and tertiary guns you can find on the ISD-I! Officially (WEG RPGwise) they took out the DP guns and replaced them with HTLBs and HTLCs with good firepower but low FC ratings!

It is clear that if the 200 ISDs of the Remmant had older models involved, that the Remmant shipyards were at one point all tied up in capital ship construction, maintenance and refitting, or how the Post-Isard Empire was incapable of refitting older ships to capitalise on new tactics and doctrines, the NR did not fare so bad in her reconstruction of the fleets.

If they work, continue to use them. The 5th Fleet was a brand new construct, so of course they could use all new equipment. We are talking about a Fleet, that even in NJO era had to use the fucking Corusca Rainbow, an Interdictor they got, oh, back in the X-Wing books over fiteen years ago. They also had so much of a Fleet that even the 8-sector large IR could match their contribution during the early parts of the Vong invasion.

There was only ONE large shipyard in what is commonly referred to as the Imperial Remnant. And by large, it ain't Kuat.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Palpatine's Empire was evil. The Rebels were justified in bringing it down. Palpatine committed genocide, enslaved entire species, eliminated all races, species, and sexes other than white male humans from the military (try finding an Imperial who isn't a white human male in the OT), disbanded the Imperial Senate (thus depriving the galaxy of their last remaining voice in the government), massacred millions of people for no reason other than to test a weapon of mass destruction, had knowledge of and even employed criminal organizations (Black Sun shipped materials for the DS II; had ties with Jabba the Hutt), and in general mistreated the populace (Uncle Owen, Aunt Beru, Sand People, Jawas). And this is only what the Rebels knew of. They might not have known he started a galaxy-wide war (the Clone Wars) just to gain power by the time of the Galactic Civil War and was a Sith Lord with plans of turning everyone in the galaxy into his mindless drones. (Which leads to an interesting question: How in the hell would he have handled the YV with a bunch of shit-for-brain zombies had he succeeded?)