Imperial policy

[Lord of the Farce]

You mean how Mon Mothma was a Senator before the RA was even created? And do we know how Leia became a Senator?

My point was that the most likely reason for their high position in the RA was because of the finacial support they (and their personal supporters) brought to the RA.

Yes... and? So they have Mon Calamari troops and crew, who are "the soul" of the RA.

The point is that the MC cruisers had Mon Cal crew because they have to have Mon Cal crew.
Now consider this: Imagine you were in charge of providing a steady supply of rations for a human army that is spread all over the planet. Now try to imagine what would be involved in having to also supply rations for species with a wide variety of dietary requirements.

Of course. The RA is allied with Sullust. What's the problem?

An alliance of convenience which results in a single known representative, a (former?) smuggler, flying a smuggler's ship.

Perhaps he's an honourable member then. He's certainly in a position of trust.

Only because he was personally attached to General Solo.

I don't know. And I can't be sure. But I never said the Empire was sexist or racist, Vakundok said:

...So, judging from the ANH movie, the rebels were just as sexists and racials.

Emphasis mine. I was simply pointing out this wasn't true, and that we don't see similar examples on the Imperial side. That implies the Imps are sexist/racist, which doesn't contradict the EU either; but the canon doesn't come right out and say it. Sorry if my post was murky, but there's the clarification.

See my point above about the logistics of providing food (except expand it to a galaxy-wide civil war), and Kazuaki Shimazaki's point about women being allowed in active combat roles.

Lastly, a couple of quick question: Who was put in charge of the RA commando force sent to Endor, a male or a female? A human or an alien?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Actually, you might not want to bring up Admiral Ackbar. This is not revealed in the film, but it turns out that the entire Mon Calamari Fleet is an exercise in racism, specially designed for use by Mon Calamari in vital positions even after the integration.

Yeah fair enough. You mean the MC ships are designed to be run by MC only?

Not quite the entire ship. But the bridge, yeah. This is commonly known, see the RASB. There might be others that say the same, but I guess we all have the RASB.

[His Divine Shadow]

Actually, you might not want to bring up Admiral Ackbar. This is not revealed in the film, but it turns out that the entire Mon Calamari Fleet is an exercise in racism, specially designed for use by Mon Calamari in vital positions even after the integration.

(BTW, I suppose there might be a useful explanation for Mon Cal tardiness in updating those interfaces, but I've yet to see a satisfactory one.)

According to what I've read, most of the MonCal ships at the time of the movie era where designed before the MonCal's joined the Rebel Alliance and converted their passenger liners into warships, the newer models of MC80's and all MC90's and newer are designed so they do not need MonCals to crew them.
The problem was recognized and newer models have tried to fix it in other words.

[Stofsk]

My point was that the most likely reason for their high position in the RA was because of the finacial support they (and their personal supporters) brought to the RA.

How does that make the RA sexist, exactly?

The point is that the MC cruisers had Mon Cal crew because they have to have Mon Cal crew.

Not seeing the specism or racism here either. The Mon Cal ships were built by the Mon Cal and had only recently been converted to warships. Is it reasonable to expect their starships, which were designed for their physiology, to be upgraded to accomodate humans and other species in such a short time frame? Particularly in light of His Divine Shadow's point about how later MC models have sought to correct this, to allow speciation in the crew?

Of course. The RA is allied with Sullust. What's the problem?

An alliance of convenience which results in a single known representative, a (former?) smuggler, flying a smuggler's ship.

What are you saying here, exactly? Lando may have been a smuggler, but at Endor he was an RA General. Do you think his co-pilot would have been just anyone, or someone Lando could trust enough to fly with him?

Perhaps he's an honourable member then. He's certainly in a position of trust.

Only because he was personally attached to General Solo.

That's hardly proof of the RA's racism. For all you know Chewbacca may have been offered a position in the RA and declined, having already one life debt to Han. Maybe it's a Wookiee honour thing.

Now consider this: Imagine you were in charge of providing a steady supply of rations for a human army that is spread all over the planet. Now try to imagine what would be involved in having to also supply rations for species with a wide variety of dietary requirements.

See my point above about the logistics of providing food (except expand it to a galaxy-wide civil war), and Kazuaki Shimazaki's point about women being allowed in active combat roles.

Obviously standardisation of equipment and supplies helps against the logistics nightmare of any galactic-spanning organisation like the RA or even GE would face. In those terms it would be understandable to see why we only see humans run around and fight. So the RA and the GE only allowing human troops and soldiers in their ranks makes sense. And in the strictest possible sense of the word both are racist for doing so, even when the RA makes advantage of the Mon Cal cruisers and their crews.

Fleet positions are also different from support positions 'onshore'. Women have been serving as communications and other support stuff before they were allowed on warships or in active combat roles in the US, AFAIK.

So there's a historical precedent for women to be assigned "support" roles as opposed to "combat" roles. I understand, however this doesn't make the RA or GE sexist. The RA has women who serve in it, and the GE probably does as well. We don't know about them, but there is nothing canonically stated that says the GE is sexist.

Lastly, a couple of quick question: Who was put in charge of the RA commando force sent to Endor, a male or a female? A human or an alien?

Han Solo. Based on merits - he and Chewie and snuck into a lot worse spots than the shield bunker. But then, who did Han choose as his crew? Leia and Chewie, and he wanted the Ewoks to help out (though he didn't actually plan for them to fight).

Not quite the entire ship. But the bridge, yeah. This is commonly known, see the RASB. There might be others that say the same, but I guess we all have the RASB.

Alright, but I don't know what the RASB is. Rebel Alliance Sourcebook?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

According to what I've read, most of the MonCal ships at the time of the movie era where designed before the MonCal's joined the Rebel Alliance and converted their passenger liners into warships, the newer models of MC80's and all MC90's and newer are designed so they do not need MonCals to crew them.
The problem was recognized and newer models have tried to fix it in other words.

I never said they never fixed the problem. Just that they were hopelessly tardy. This is the #1 most common excuse I've heard for this incident, and IMHO, it doesn't wash.

I could buy this explanation for the ships they had converted before they officially joined the Alliance.

Even the post-Alliance Conversions are very iffy at best. The conversion from a merchie to a warship is a major project. Things like proton torpedoes might be fitted with relative ease. Things like TURBOLASERS require major redesign to accomodate the new power and stress loads. This means major hull work.

The bridge has to be revamped to accomodate a great many more consoles for new specialities like WEAPONS and SHIELDS. And in all that shit, they couldn't find time to install multi-species consoles or choose to install them for the new warships? Really. Consoles don't require hull changes. Just a change of the monitor screen and keyboards.

If the Conversions are iffy, the New-Builds (which are supposedly being crunched out at 1 every 6 months in the RASB) are unforgivable. Given the way Mon Cals supposedly like every ship unique, it means each ship is basically a new design, since even minor changes require major computations. Even when building a NEW ship you can't install multi-species compatible gear? Really...

No matter how you cut it, full Multi-Species ability should not have been delayed all the way to the MC-90. Even the MC-80B, which apparently only had PARTIAL capability, is too late.

The Rebels might actually be that gullible to accept this excuse (they seem to believe you can blow up a moon sized thing next to a planet and do no ill to it after all.) I try not to be that gullible.

[Crown]

I never said they never fixed the problem. Just that they were hopelessly tardy. This is the #1 most common excuse I've heard for this incident, and IMHO, it doesn't wash.<snip>

Ahhh, correct me where I am wrong, but the Mon Cal joined up after TESB right? So there was a six month period where they would be given the chance to join the RA. So you are suggesting than rather than providing Mon Cal crew who are already familiar with the ships and focusing on first getting civilian space liners up to military scratch, they should instead have been focusing on converting the interface for human use.

Because that's exactly what you want, you want to convert the interface to a human crew, hand over the keys and wave them goodbye while these people have to learn how to operate the damn thing, and how to repair errors, how to use it effectively, and go to war with equiptment that they would have known for only at best six months.

Oh yeah here is the nice bit; if they fail, then not only have you (the Mon Cal) lost a bunch of ships that you could quite possibly need, but you have also left a pretty clear calling card to the Empire as to who was the RA ship builder.

Please tell me this is a joke.

Yes the Mon Cal used their position for political advantage/leverage in the RA and then the NR, yes they could have even been stiff necked about it.

But do you have any concept of a small thing known as a learning curve?

This isn't an arguement, this is grasping at straws.

[His Divine Shadow]

You know, they happened to be a rebel alliance... very little resources, logistics, taking whatever they could get.
You think they would bother with an utterly unimportant nitpick as that?

They need ships, they got ships, so what if they're optimized for MonCals, you think the rebel leaders are gonna strut around and bitch about that when they're currently busy with not being grinded into a fine powder by the Empire?

MonCals didn't seem like a rare resources anyway, not like there's any shortage, so why give a shit unless it actually hampers efficiency in some serious way?

As for the changes required, you seem to act as if your assumption that the change of interfaces would require only a change of consoles and keyboards is a given, and that it would be as easy as that.

Face it, the redesigning of the interfaces is a NITPICK, I cannot see any real reason for existing ships to be converted and trained with new crews when they already got trained crews, it's much more efficient to build new classes for new crews in training rahter than fucking over what you got when you need every last ship in service.

[Stofsk]

Actually Crown, according to my old SW comics (Classic Star Wars, Dark Horse) the Mon Cal joined the RA before ESB, but it is not made clear when exactly they did so. What is known is they assisted the RA with evacuating Yavin through a series of diversionary strikes on the Imperial blockade. It all depends on how long the RA was on Hoth. If they were only on there a couple weeks/months, then the Mon Cal were allies for that long.

Of course, this doesn't diminish what you said at all. I don't know the status of comic books either. What are they, official? Under novels?

[Crown]

I am not sure, I think (just speculation here) that they would come in under the books (EU) possibly even on par.

Eh, either way that doesn't really change a lot.

[vakundok]

But I never said the Empire was sexist or racist, Vakundok said:

...So, judging from the ANH movie, the rebels were just as sexists and racials.

Emphasis mine. I was simply pointing out this wasn't true, and that we don't see similar examples on the Imperial side. That implies the Imps are sexist/racist, which doesn't contradict the EU either; but the canon doesn't come right out and say it. Sorry if my post was murky, but there's the clarification.

You should have read the whole post or ask me before placing emphasis.

Were there any females during the ending ceremony in ANH? (Apart from Leia.) Were there any aliens? (Apart from Chewie, who was not a member of the Aliance.) So, judging from the ANH movie, the rebels were just as sexists and racials. At least, the novelisation mentions them.

Judging from the ANH movie only. As I wrote, the novelisation mentions more females, and from the "At least" it should have been clear that the earlier sentence was sarkastic even if I forgot to put a smiley.
And Palpatine did not disband, only "suspended" the senate, if I remember well. It happened after ~20 years, and at the start of ANH Vader (who was higher in the hierarchy than a planetary governor) was forced to hide his act from the senate, so the importance of the senate (and the importance of a senator) was more than "Who cares". (Oh, and an imperial officer doubted whether the imperium would operate without the senate.)

The canon
- shows that the early imperial government either wasn't or couldn't act as sexist. We have no info about the later (ANH-RotJ) era.
- implies that the imperial military was sexist.
- implies that the imperial military was racist.

[Stofsk]

You should have read the whole post or ask me before placing emphasis.

My bad.

Judging from the ANH movie only. As I wrote, the novelisation mentions more females, and from the "At least" it should have been clear that the earlier sentence was sarkastic even if I forgot to put a smiley.

Ah, then I was mistaken. I thought you weren't being sarcastic. Again, my bad.

And Palpatine did not disband, only "suspended" the senate, if I remember well.

No, he "dissolved" them.

TARKIN: The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us.
I've just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council
permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept
away.

Emphasis mine.

The canon
- shows that the early imperial government either wasn't or couldn't act as sexist. We have no info about the later (ANH-RotJ) era.
- implies that the imperial military was sexist.
- implies that the imperial military was racist.

That is essentially what I was trying to say, but perhaps clumsily.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Ahhh, correct me where I am wrong, but the Mon Cal joined up after TESB right? So there was a six month period where they would be given the chance to join the RA.

The RASB kills any chance of that idea. You do know the RASB was timed before Hoth, did you?

And even if they did only join at TESB, waiting six years to introduce full scale integration is VERY TARDY.

Ackbar goes all the way back to the beginning of the formal creation of the Rebel Alliance. He was the first, and only CINC of the Rebel Fleet.'

By the way, the time between ANH and TESB is also officially fixed, at about 3 YEARS.

So you are suggesting than rather than providing Mon Cal crew who are already familiar with the ships and focusing on first getting civilian space liners up to military scratch, they should instead have been focusing on converting the interface for human use.

"The Mon Cals will be familiar with their ships!" That's the SECOND favorite counterargument, and IMHO it doesn't wash as well.

What part of "Both procedures can be done concurrently" do you not understand.

The Mon Cals will not be familiar with the ships when they get back. A civ-to-warship design conversion means a redesign of the power supply system, the addition of armor (which changes the mass and handling characteristics of the ship,) perhaps even a boost in engine and total reactor power.

It'd be almost a new ship when they get back.

All I'm saying is that maybe, for example when they are adding the new fucking Weapons Control Console on the bridge during the Refit, they can choose to get one everyone can use!

Because that's exactly what you want, you want to convert the interface to a human crew, hand over the keys and wave them goodbye while these people have to learn how to operate the damn thing, and how to repair errors, how to use it effectively, and go to war with equiptment that they would have known for only at best six months.

Considering that Mon Cals have joined for a lot longer, this is weak. You also are presuming the Mon Cals won't have to refamiliarize themselves with their ships when they get converted, despite the changes in characteristics.

Oh yeah here is the nice bit; if they fail, then not only have you (the Mon Cal) lost a bunch of ships that you could quite possibly need, but you have also left a pretty clear calling card to the Empire as to who was the RA ship builder.

As if they don't know already. Anybody that can't figure out who gave those Mon Cal cruisers to the Rebels (remember, only Mon Cal crews can run their bridges, so that really cuts down on the competitors yet again) is an idiot beyond believe.

Yes the Mon Cal used their position for political advantage/leverage in the RA and then the NR, yes they could have even been stiff necked about it.

But do you have any concept of a small thing known as a learning curve?

The Mon Cals will be on about the same place on the learning curve for their conversions, and ESPECIALLY for their new builds which would need new crews.

I've said it before and I'd say it again. Even if this BS works for conversions, it doesn't work for the spanking new ships, and certainly not SPANKING NEW SHIPS YEARS AFTER ENDOR!

[His Divine Shadow]

Prove your assumption that it's as easy as simply replacing all the interfaces on these ships and thats all you have todo before you go on.

Also, what is the actual problem with building these vessels? A single ISD takes a year or more to be built, how many where in construction? How many has trained crews?

Wheres the actual reason for replacing them? Please, show me that.

[His Divine Shadow]

Anyway the official site also says:
"Mon Cal cruisers are almost exclusively crewed by the amphibian species. This is because the control interfaces are keyed to Mon Calamari senses and instincts, and refitting the vessels was simply too costly for the credit-strapped Rebellion."

Both senses and instict, the whole system is keyed to MonCal physiology and psychology on a far deeper level than any fecking swap of monitors and keyboards could fixed.
And secondly, there was no reason for the swap either to begin with, Mon Cal's are hardly near extinct are they, it's not like they are hard to find?

And they do need weapons, they do not need multi-cultural ships, they probably work much better with a uniform crew anyway, something the Empire had realized long ago.

If this doesn't wash for you, I think you sould get something to drink.

[Lord of the Farce]

How does that make the RA sexist, exactly?

It doesn't make the RA sexist, but it does mark Leia and Mon Mothma as exceptions rather than the rule.

What are you saying here, exactly? Lando may have been a smuggler, but at Endor he was an RA General. Do you think his co-pilot would have been just anyone, or someone Lando could trust enough to fly with him?

I was talking about the Sullustan.

That's hardly proof of the RA's racism. For all you know Chewbacca may have been offered a position in the RA and declined, having already one life debt to Han. Maybe it's a Wookiee honour thing.

And that's why they awarded him with a civilian medal after the Battle of Yavin?

Han Solo. Based on merits - he and Chewie and snuck into a lot worse spots than the shield bunker.

And why not General Madine, who is by all indications much more suitable to commando missions, who also personally trained the soldiers who captured the Tydirium? But then, he's a human male too.

But then, who did Han choose as his crew? Leia and Chewie, and he wanted the Ewoks to help out (though he didn't actually plan for them to fight).

He didn't choose them, they volunteered. And Han obviously wasn't very convinced of the Ewok's usefulness.

Alright, but I don't know what the RASB is. Rebel Alliance Sourcebook?

That's the standard acronym.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Anyway the official site also says:
"Mon Cal cruisers are almost exclusively crewed by the amphibian species. This is because the control interfaces are keyed to Mon Calamari senses and instincts, and refitting the vessels was simply too costly for the credit-strapped Rebellion."

That's not what other sources, such as the RASB say:

While most of a Mon Cal cruiser’s crew consists of various species of Rebel personnel, recruited from all across the galaxy, the command crew is almost always exclusively made up of Mon Calamarians. This is chiefly due to the unusual design of the ship’s controls. Mon Cals do not see in the same spectrum as Humans, and many of the holo-displays and battle graphics are more easIly deciphered by that species.

Both senses and instict, the whole system is keyed to MonCal physiology and psychology on a far deeper level than any fecking swap of monitors and keyboards could fixed.

As far as I can see, unless you are presuming some kind of mind-control battle system (no evidence of that,) this "keyed to" shit is about different spectral presentation (for the physiology) and the "instinct" shit might be about a more erognomic to Mon Cal keyboard. The fact the Mon Cals like their ships damp is also well known. There is no need to imagine something too complicated.

Again, when they add The New Weapons Console, they can choose whether to add one that's "keyed to Mon Cal senses and instincts" or a General one (which Mon Cals use just fine - see Jesmin Ackbar on Night Caller)

And when they make a brand new warship, they can think about the entire system again.

And secondly, there was no reason for the swap either to begin with, Mon Cal's are hardly near extinct are they, it's not like they are hard to find?

Other than to eliminate racism. What part of you does not understand that if a certain job only allows a particular race or species to get into the top ranks, it is RACIST? What does the Rebel Alliance claim it stands for? Freedom, Equality? If I am in the Rebel Alliance Navy, I'd really doubt this.

How can I truly believe that they are striving for such a future when even the parts of the present under their control don't match that ideal?

"There are plenty of white males" so let's not permit blacks and Hispanics and females in the military. Or if we let them in, never let them make Colonel or over. If they are in the Navy, make sure they cannot be an Officer of the Deck, XO, or Captain on our big, most prestigious combat vessels, thus greatly limiting their chances of further promotion.

[His Divine Shadow]

That's not what other sources, such as the RASB say:

Ofcourse those things could be about any job not related to any real interaction with the systems, also fighter pilots
At any rate the official site is a newer source of equal validity.

As far as I can see, unless you are presuming some kind of mind-control battle system (no evidence of that,) this "keyed to" shit is about different spectral presentation (for the physiology) and the "instinct" shit might be about a more erognomic to Mon Cal keyboard. The fact the Mon Cals like their ships damp is also well known. There is no need to imagine something too complicated.

You are talking nonsense, why on earth would there be any mind-control?
You are ignoring very real cross-species problems, whilst humans might logically expect a system do this and that in a certain order, a moncal might have a totally different view of it.

Again, when they add The New Weapons Console, they can choose whether to add one that's "keyed to Mon Cal senses and instincts" or a General one (which Mon Cals use just fine - see Jesmin Ackbar on Night Caller)

Yes, it's not impossible, it's not required either.
Ofcourse when they add the new weapon, they probably link them to already existing systems on the bridge rather than physically add new consoles.

And when they make a brand new warship, they can think about the entire system again.

They did make an entire new system.

Other than to eliminate racism. What part of you does not understand that if a certain job only allows a particular race or species to get into the top ranks, it is RACIST? What does the Rebel Alliance claim it stands for? Freedom, Equality? If I am in the Rebel Alliance Navy, I'd really doubt this.

It's not racism, racism doesn't even come into question, it's specieism, if there was any discrimination that is, as opposed to a sensible recognition of the facts of the situation, moncals got ships and crews, let's use moncal ships and crews, moncals can refit ships with useless but pretty human systems later and make new ships that everyone can use, later, when we are not dying anymore

How can I truly believe that they are striving for such a future when even the parts of the present under their control don't match that ideal?

I dunno, you're focusing on small things and blowing them up out of proportion?

Boo-hoo if the humans aren't in on everything, it's a war for survival, upset PC feelings come dead last when it's about survival.

"There are plenty of white males" so let's not permit blacks and Hispanics and females in the military. Or if we let them in, never let them make Colonel or over. If they are in the Navy, make sure they cannot be an Officer of the Deck, XO, or Captain on our big, most prestigious combat vessels, thus greatly limiting their chances of further promotion.

Hey sure if we wish to discriminate on entierly useless differences inside a species as opposed to real existing differences between species.
They're barely getting by and they should ignore real actual differences between species and sacrifice efficiency for somthing as dumb as multi-culturalism? What place has that in a war?

You're getting hooked up on entierly symbolical nonsense, think pragmatically.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Empire was institutionally xenophobic, speciest, and sexist. His supporters bought into a new human supremecist trend called "High Human Culture."

Palpatine supported it because it aided his cause, setting up an "us vs. them" mentality and divided the people of the galaxy.

Palpatine's true descrimination was against non-Force-sensitives. This can be glimpsed in excerpts from his work in progress, The Dark Side Compendium. Specifically Vol. 1, The Book of Anger.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Ofcourse those things could be about any job not related to any real interaction with the systems, also fighter pilots

Is that what you hear when you read "most"? Just fighter pilots and people that don't touch the systems?

At any rate the official site is a newer source of equal validity.

Of equal validity. Thank you. Actually, it is pretty easy to rationalize. I can see EARLY Mon Cals (ones pre-Alliance militarized) with full Cal systems and crews. Later, with their joining the Alliance, that has to change somewhat.

I honestly have no problem with those old ships. The Alliance really cannot afford to rip already converted ships open again to change a few interfaces. My problem is with every ship that underwent its conversion or construction after joining the Alliance. With each succeeding ship, it becomes less forgivable.

That change to most areas suggests it isn't as difficult as you think to re-interface the system. After all, they apparently re-wired it for other places, except for the Bridge.

You are talking nonsense, why on earth would there be any mind-control?
You are ignoring very real cross-species problems, whilst humans might logically expect a system do this and that in a certain order, a moncal might have a totally different view of it.

If that's the case, Mon Cals would almost certainly have great difficulty using human built systems. But that's not the case. We've heard of the quantifications of the changes. Different spectrums and possibly different erognomics. No need to assume some kind of Thrawn-like stupid logic wiring problem.

Yes, it's not impossible, it's not required either.
Ofcourse when they add the new weapon, they probably link them to already existing systems on the bridge rather than physically add new consoles.

I'm talking about the Weapons Direction Station they are going to put on the Bridge. It is something a Civ ship, with at most a few point defense guns won't need. Therefore, it will be a new Installation - another chance, and they Blow It.

They did make an entire new system.

Six years after Endor. I applaud them for finally doing it, and lambast them because there is little apparent reason they couldn't do it earlier.

And no, self-generated rationalizations don't count.

It's not racism, racism doesn't even come into question, it's specieism,

That's a pitiful nitpick.

if there was any discrimination that is, as opposed to a sensible recognition of the facts of the situation, moncals got ships and crews, let's use moncal ships and crews,

No problem with that. I already agreed any warship that was converted before they joined the Alliance can go ahead and retain their old system till the next major refit (where the ship is gutted open for overhaul anyway.)

moncals can refit ships with useless but pretty human systems later and make new ships that everyone can use, later, when we are not dying anymore

1) It is hardly useless to refit ships with devices everyone can use. If nothing else, it increases the pool of sentients that you can choose to man the ships.
2) Because of the way Mon Cals like to build every ship different, every new ship is a new design altogether. Even little changes in ships means recalculations to regain proper qualities. Therefore, they get that chance "to make new ships everyone can use" not only when they change from 80 to 80a to 80b to 90 standard. They get to make that choice every time they build a ship! AND THEY BLOW IT EVERY TIME till the 90.
3) I'm saying during their militarizations and constructions after they realized they might have to use other species, they could start incorporating Universal-use tech then. After all, according to the RASB, they've already been doing that for most of the ship! Might as well do the bloody bridge as well.

I dunno, you're focusing on small things and blowing them up out of proportion?

Boo-hoo if the humans aren't in on everything, it's a war for survival, upset PC feelings come dead last when it's about survival.

Big things come after little things. If Survival is top on your List, you WON'T be in the Rebel Alliance. The Rebel Alliance is about people (or perhaps madmen) that put other things over mere Survival.

And it is "Boo-hoo if the Mon Cals excluded EVERYONE ELSE from a prime set of positions." Creating multi-species capable ships has real military utility for a manpower short force as well.

You may think it is a little thing, but it is something they can do right now. And they aren't doing it.

Hey sure if we wish to discriminate on entierly useless differences inside a species as opposed to real existing differences between species.

1) When they finally allowed women on warships, they DID have to make changes to the heads and sleeping arrangements, and had to teach a whole set of regs. By your logic, they shouldn't do that.
2) You have failed to provide a shred of evidence for such huge differences. Remember, Mon Cals use human interfaces just fine.

They're barely getting by and they should ignore real actual differences between species and sacrifice efficiency for somthing as dumb as multi-culturalism? What place has that in a war?

You IMAGINED differences that would it murderously difficult to create a multi-species capable interface on Mon Cal ships, even though they rewired most of the ship. You IMAGINED that even during new-builds, they could not implement a new multi-species interface system.

You're getting hooked up on entierly symbolical nonsense, think pragmatically.

It is not me that's hooked up on symbolism. It is you, in this case on the "goodness" of the Rebel Alliance. You are the one creating phantom disparities between species. You are the one creating huge difficulties in making multi-species interfaces, especially since MOST ships in this galaxy uses multi-species capable interfaces AND according to the RASB it is possible to re-do the interfaces on the REST of the ship.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Nitpick: the "unique" design thing is a weak argument. Its almost certain that the 80s, 80as, 80Bs, and 90s were identical within their class.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Nitpick: the "unique" design thing is a weak argument. Its almost certain that the 80s, 80as, 80Bs, and 90s were identical within their class.

Yeah, I've read some of your arguments on that topic. On the other hand, absurd, inefficient and unsupported in canon as it is (I think the canon shows several subtypes,) that's the official position.

Even if that's so, one would think they could solve that species problem by the 80B at the very latest. They've had years to solve it by then.

If we suspend disbelief and think the official position is true, it makes their fight harder:

Yeah, the inefficiency involved in making every ship different is OK. Even if you ignore the redesign stuff, even the EU agrees that the crews have difficulty servicing those ships because of their differences - a clear, significant inefficiency. Yet the "inefficiency" of changing a few consoles, with clear PC, moral and practical advantages is unacceptable. Right.

[Lagmonster]

Just coming off the opening post - the closest I can venture is that many individual planets in the Old Republic were heavily xenophobic (source: Kotor backstory), but that's about it. The empire seems to heavily favour humans, mind, and there was somewhere I remember hearing that there was no way a wookie or an ithorian could EVER be allowed in the Imperial Navy, but damn if I recall where.

[Stormbringer]

He uses people based on abilities, that is not the same as somebody who is sexist or racist (alien racist). They don't see anything worthwhile of that particular species or gender.

News flash, their have been plenty of racists (and sexists) that have used people they believe were inferior. What do you think racial slavery was?

You're not actually saying that Palpy training an alien as his apprentice has any bearing on 'racial slavery' are you?

Actually, my point was that slavery, as practiced in the colonial days, involved people using other people that they believed were inferior. And hence that simply because Palpatine made use of aliens in his schemes doesn't mean that he wouldn't allow racism and sexism.

[His Divine Shadow]

EDIT, deleted the whole argument, because you're just gonna reply point by point, I don't have the time or inclination for it.

Only thing I do need to say is that the systems are indeed more complicated than you think, the quote says the system also react to MonCal instincts, not just what frequencies and such they are shown on.

But to sum up your argument:
1) It's easy to change the systems - prove it
2) It would help alot to change the systems - only if there was a crew shortage, but MonCal sips wheren't that plentifull and far from the only ships in the RA navy, they where some of the biggest and most effective, probably due to size and a homogenous crew.

I just don't see any reasons for there to be a hurry...

[Illuminatus Primus]

Yeah, I've read some of your arguments on that topic. On the other hand, absurd, inefficient and unsupported in canon as it is (I think the canon shows several subtypes,) that's the official position.

Not just that, but it is contradicted by canon, and all official schematics and images have shown us versions of the canonical vessels.

The [Liberty-class] subtype and the [Reef Home-class] subtype compose the only official or canoncial MC80 Star Cruisers.

Moreover, the WEG claim is every single Mon Cal cruiser is a unique design. This is demonstrably false in canon, and thusly that statement is incorrect. You can't squeeze it in, because all we need is canonical proof of at least two identical Mon Calamari cruisers. There is proof of at least two (and often more) for each of the three discernable classes of Mon Cal ships in canon: the [Liberty-class] subtype, the [Reef Home-class] subtype (note: Saxton refers to this vessel class as the "[anonymous pearly wingless]"), and the [Home One-class] type.

Ergo, the claim is false.

Even if that's so, one would think they could solve that species problem by the 80B at the very latest. They've had years to solve it by then.

I'm pro-asshole Mon Cals. I fully support the idea they intentionally tried to dominate the upper echelons of the NR naval officer corps.