Sandtroopers, Snowtroopers, etc.

[Sarevok]

Why bother using specialised troops? Standard stormtroopers are equipped with battlesuits. They should be able to survive in a wide variety of enviroments.

Hm? Standard stormies are not equiped with flippers and aquatic thrusters, therefore you can't use them underwater. Standard stormies are not equiped with rocket thrusters, therefore they can't be used in space. Standard stormies don't have extra radiation protection, they can't be used in over irradiated wastelands....

And you can't equip a stormie with everything and you can't train a stormie to use everything and fight everywhere, and even if you could, it's better to have troops who are specialized in a particular or in a few environments than trying to cram the entire thing into one soldier's head.

Who would be a better swimmer in one week?

You, constantly training in swimming, footballing, basketball, golf, ping pong and horse riding in the alloted time?

Or Bob, who spends the entire week swimming in a pool until he grows gills and dermal dentacles?

See.

And even if it would be difficult to mass produce specialized units, I don't think it would be too hard for garrisoned units to be specialized for their planet's terrain (ie. the stormies living in Hoth and guarding it would be ice troopers while the stormies stationed in Magma World would be lava troopers, etc.).

Good point.

[Knife]

With a galactic army, one would expect the run of the mill trooper to be trained to fight in most common eviroment. So the basic; Desert, temperate, jungle, mountainous, and even artic weather should be standard training for troopers.

This doesn't necessarily discount the possibility of specialized troops but the Stormtroopers are used more or less as rapid deployment troops so having to ship the specialized troops to the target area would be ungainly.

For super special situations, I see specialized troops such as Z-G or radiation or even underwater but a minor change in habitable weather should not require over specialization in rapid deployment troops.

So basically, imo, a Stormtrooper is a Stormtrooper except in extra special situations like radiation or Zero-G. I would speculate that Imperial Army units might specialize more than Stormtrooper units due to what ever region they are deployed too to garrison.

[PainRack]

With a galactic army, one would expect the run of the mill trooper to be trained to fight in most common eviroment. So the basic; Desert, temperate, jungle, mountainous, and even artic weather should be standard training for troopers.

This doesn't necessarily discount the possibility of specialized troops but the Stormtroopers are used more or less as rapid deployment troops so having to ship the specialized troops to the target area would be ungainly.

For super special situations, I see specialized troops such as Z-G or radiation or even underwater but a minor change in habitable weather should not require over specialization in rapid deployment troops.

So basically, imo, a Stormtrooper is a Stormtrooper except in extra special situations like radiation or Zero-G. I would speculate that Imperial Army units might specialize more than Stormtrooper units due to what ever region they are deployed too to garrison.

Actually, the reverse would be true. IOW, specialised units would be used as rapid deployment troops as they don't need to have time out to change equipment, tactics/doctrine, retrain and so forth before going into theatre.

[neoolong]

Well, starwars.com calls them all stormtroopers that have been specially trained and equipped. So its not exactly just stormtroopers that have been issued different equipment. And not just standard stormtrooper training.

"Specific environments called for specially trained and equipped stormtroopers, such as the snowtroopers that besieged the ice world of Hoth and the lightly-armored scout troopers that patrolled the forests of Endor." Stormtrooper page

"Their stormtrooper ranks reflected this through specialized units trained and equipped to operate in specific environments.
The sandtrooper is a desert terrain stormtrooper equipped with modified armor and gear to better withstand missions in harsh, arid locales like Tatooine." Sandtrooper page

"The stormtroopers designated as scouts wear lightweight armor that is considerably more flexible than the standard uniform." Scouttrooper page

"A specially-trained division of stormtrooper infantry, the snowtroopers wear customized armor well suited to the climate extremes of ice planets such as Hoth." Snowtrooper page

[Galvatron]

Yeah, I saw that at the official site too. What I'm wondering is if all that is just an official brainbug or if there's some canon evidence that these "special" troops are anything but regular stormtroopers wearing special gear.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Just because something is not implied in the canon does not make its proposal in official illogical or unwarrented and thus is not necessarily a brain bug.

In the case of Hoth and biker scouts, it may make good sense to develop clones of excellent soldiers from cold or mountainous planets, or superb scouts and patrolmen from previous wars. Why not? Our examples of definite specialty troopers include the troops of the flagship Executor and Palpatine's legion at Endor.

The sandtroopers...that may be a stretch. I do not know the background of the Devestator. If it were Vader's standard warship, I imagine that its just dirty field armor. But troops from the local garrison...

[Lord Sander]

I have no problem with specialized troops, as long as they're either small units or stationed long-term in such conditions.
What gets me is that they just happened to have the best damn Cold Assault Stormtroopers on hand when they accidentally found Rebels hiding in the snow.
I dislike the entire idea of Blizzard Force.
And Sandtroopers too. In ANH they're just Stormtroopers with your basic patrol-gear brought down from Devastator. Now, if it was a local unit, fine, then call them Sandtroopers.

[Illuminatus Primus]

What the fuck are you saying?

Vader recieved data from Hoth while they were still at some roundezvous point. They could easily of acquired some special troops.

Besides, its the Executor. It could easily carry a million troops probably, and its not hard to imagine a couple thousand could be optimized for cold weather climates.

[Isolder74]

What's wrong with Blizzard Force. On a ship the size of the Executer it can affoerd to carry such a speclized unit. Besides the ship through the probe droid already knew what envoroment they were heading to. So even if they are not on the ship already its not that much of a streach to have the unit called up and brought in, now is it. The Executer could easily have a unit of every type on it without any problems at all!

[Lord Sander]

They headed there immediately after the probe data was acquired, so they didn't stop anywhere to pick up troops.

And sure, Executor is big, and they could keep an army of each specialization, but I think it's rather wasteful to keep an army aboard that sits around doing nothing and only ever gets deployed if you just happen to come across a certain environment.

Just my personal opinion though. Rules of officiality still say I'm wrong.

Edit: italics in Executor

[Illuminatus Primus]

Actually, it'd make perfect sense. Lacking specialized troops could cost them time to acquire those troops if the droid had found the base in another hostile environment, and standard stormies may be inefficient and more sluggish, thus allowing the Rebels an easier time to escape.

In the Empire's war, it was all about pining them before they could get away. Its instrumental to have all necessary resources on hand at all times. Time is of the essence.

[Isolder74]

ask the 101st Airborne or THE NAVY SEALS about that?

They are highly specialized and yet can still be deployed as normal units. If needed they can get their special grear and head out. When did we ever say they would just sit around picking their nose until the time to attack a cold planet comes?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Of course not, but no one said that, so you're attacking a strawman.

[Lord Sander]

Of course not, but no one said that, so you're attacking a strawman.

Yeah, I did.
And I guess you're all right, but I still cringe when I see an AT-AT named Blizzard 1

[YT300000]

Why bother using specialised troops? Standard stormtroopers are equipped with battlesuits. They should be able to survive in a wide variety of enviroments.

Are you even paying attention to the thread?

The Empire encompassed thousands of worlds, with countless climate and terrain challenges. Their stormtrooper ranks reflected this through specialized units trained and equipped to operate in specific environments.

When you're as big as the Empire, having specialized units JUST for ice planets and JUST for desert planets isn't much of a problem (resourcewise or logistically).

Net gain= advantage. In war, advantages are of paramount importance.

[Galvatron]

ask the 101st Airborne or THE NAVY SEALS about that?

They are highly specialized and yet can still be deployed as normal units. If needed they can get their special grear and head out. When did we ever say they would just sit around picking their nose until the time to attack a cold planet comes?

That's my point. SEALs are Navy commandos, but they're not specialized for one enviroment. SEAL means: sea, air, and land. I'd rather think of stormtroopers as Imperial SEALs who can do it all versus having special troops for every conceivable environment.

I'm surprised no one has suggested renaming the "stormtroopers" because they're not specialized for operating in rainy weather.

[Admiral Drason]

It doesnt look like the snowtroopers did any thing special. they seemed to be run of the mill stormies in artic gear.

Artic troops would seem a waste since there doesnt seem to be that many highly populated worlds that are covered in ice.

Those rebels were regular rebels in artic gear.They just happened to be trained for there garrison.

[vakundok]

That's my point. SEALs are Navy commandos, but they're not specialized for one enviroment. SEAL means: sea, air, and land. I'd rather think of stormtroopers as Imperial SEALs who can do it all versus having special troops for every conceivable environment.

I'm surprised no one has suggested renaming the "stormtroopers" because they're not specialized for operating in rainy weather.

And "corridortroopers" on the Tantive IV and Bespin and "treetroopers" on Endor. Kenobi said that there was noone on Tatooine, who could attack the sandcrawler so effectively. It may suggest that there were no stormies garrisoned on Tatooine at all. In the novelisation, a detachment was sent after the pod from the Devastator (and ordered not to draw attention), whether they were the ones who found it is unknown. (If I remember well, in the storyline of the game Force Commander, they were.) However, the imperial troops knew a lot about Tatooine. They knew that tusken raiders would be a good cover, but they did not know to ride in a line. Sadly that piece of information was likely uncommon, so it cannot help to judge.

EDIT: Side question: Is it possible to train a sandtrooper (or snowtrooper) at all? I mean, even the material of the sand (or snow) and the atmosphere can vary from planet to planet, not to mention the local flora and fauna.

[Isolder74]

Yet Luke acts like Imperial Troops on planet was not odd or unusual. This implies that they do have some kind of presence on the planet.

He says but why would Imperial Troops want to slaughter Jawas?

[vakundok]

Yet Luke acts like Imperial Troops on planet was not odd or unusual. This implies that they do have some kind of presence on the planet.

He says but why would Imperial Troops want to slaughter Jawas?

It was after that Kenobi stated the imperial presence, wasn't it? IMO the only clue suggesting imperial military presence on Tatooine is the use of drewbacks.

[PainRack]

That's my point. SEALs are Navy commandos, but they're not specialized for one enviroment. SEAL means: sea, air, and land. I'd rather think of stormtroopers as Imperial SEALs who can do it all versus having special troops for every conceivable environment.

I'm surprised no one has suggested renaming the "stormtroopers" because they're not specialized for operating in rainy weather.

Don't be an ass, we're not saying stormtroopers are not trained in multiple types of environments, or cannot don "sandtroopers","stormtroopers" etc etc at a moment notice and head out.

What we are saying is, that there is nothing in canon or common sense to argue against the EU proposition that there are fixed types of specialised units available in the Imperial Army. The sandtroopers in ANH were from the Devastator garrison as well as the local governor imperial forces(those in Mos Eisley), called up to enforce the blockade of the system. Blizzard Force may have been hastily assembled from available specialised troops and combined together in the manner of kamfragruppe.

[neoolong]

Yet Luke acts like Imperial Troops on planet was not odd or unusual. This implies that they do have some kind of presence on the planet.

He says but why would Imperial Troops want to slaughter Jawas?

It was after that Kenobi stated the imperial presence, wasn't it? IMO the only clue suggesting imperial military presence on Tatooine is the use of drewbacks.

What about Garindan? He's an informant that called the Imperials on Luke and Han. It seems rather odd to have an informant that also works for the Imperials, if there isn't an Imperial presence on the planet.

[Knife]

Actually, the reverse would be true. IOW, specialised units would be used as rapid deployment troops as they don't need to have time out to change equipment, tactics/doctrine, retrain and so forth before going into theatre.

Your talking over-specialization. In my personal experience, my unit was trained for desert enviroments (did training at 29Palms, my unit did time in SA ect...), we did training for temperate areas (based in San Diego), we trained for tropical enviroments (trained many a month in NTA Okinawa in Japan, Guam, ect) and trained in Mountainous enviroments (trained in Summer Mountain Warfare School and Winter Mountain Warfare School).

Basically all the basic enviroments on earth and coincidently all the enviroments shown or expected in the SW universe with the exception of extreme enviroment like radiation or Zero G. In most cases with terran type enviroments, alot of the caveats of survival and operation are suprisingly simular. It is rediculous to overspecialize to the point where you have desert troops over regular troops who have desert training.

A permenant garrison might have training above and beyond what a rapid deployment group might have or need but thats would be more to the cultural aspect or region specific information like wildlife or political concerns, not basic military and survival training for the enviroment.

If you want to argue that a permenant garrison of Stormtroopers or Imperial Army can specialize to a particular region where they are stationed, then fine but its assign to say that the Empire over trains a rapid deployment fore to such extremes as to have a desert unit onboard Naval ships and they only participate in desert operations.

'If the world is not hot, they stay in the cot.'

[vakundok]

What about Garindan? He's an informant that called the Imperials on Luke and Han. It seems rather odd to have an informant that also works for the Imperials, if there isn't an Imperial presence on the planet.

I was talking about imperial military presence, or even more precisely about the presence of imperial stormtroopers (sandtroopers). Since the local governors were part of the imperial government system, politically the empire was present undoubtedly.

EDIT:
Garindan was a local informant, and the stormtrooper officer understood his speech. But where did that officer learn it? Was it a common language on Tatooine, suggesting the trooper was garrisoned on Tatooine?
The novelisation mentions that his communicator was both too modern and too new for such a creature, suggesting that the "cooperation" was brand new.

[vakundok]

My side question in an other form:
Which one would be more effective in snow environment and 0.6G gravity?
A trooper trained and equipped for snow, or a trooper trained to fight under that gravity and equipped for snow?