Dark Empire: Like it or Leave it?

[Illuminatus Primus]

The reason for the Dark Empire story arc's length and the apparent "reset button" hit afterward is due to the fact that it got sandwiched between The Thrawn Trilogy and the Jedi Academy Trilogy.

You may thank Zahn for that.

[FTeik]

Why only blame Zahn?

Couldn´t KJA place his JAT ten years after ROTJ, instead of seven? Shows us, how important DE was thought to be, if it was squeezed between two novel-trilogies.

And why orient your story on a comic, that is probabely never published?

[Connor MacLeod]

Why only blame Zahn?

Because it gives Primey an excuse to bitch about Zahn yet again, his second most favorite hobby on this board.

[Illuminatus Primus]

If you read the Dark Empire Trade Paperback, Keven J. Anderson talks about his negotiations with Tom Vietch over the plot lines. Given that Dark Empire was supposed to be three or four years after Endor, before the Rebels captured Coruscant and Zahn refused to write his trilogy taking into account the events of Dark Empire, so it had to wedge into the already-slated five year spot for TTT and the seven-year spot for JAT, it is thus Zahn's stubbornness which is a direct cause of the chronological placement of Dark Empire.

Hey, Connor, given that everytime I state something which is Zahn's fault (this was Zahn's fault, KJA already added another Solo child and changed two of his major locales in his trilogy for Vietch's sake), care to do your own homework and prove me wrong, or are you just going to bitch from your fencepost?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Why only blame Zahn?

KJA accomodated, Zahn did not. Is everyone else supposed to make several square kilometers of wiggle room to account for the fact Zahn is the asshole, and that somehow makes those who would accomodate some, but not enough to make up for Zahn's stubbornness the asshole?

Nice job of passing the blame.

Couldn´t KJA place his JAT ten years after ROTJ, instead of seven?

No, because Bantam was negotiating other books for those slots. And Dark Empire had already largely been written and produced when Zahn's trilogy was coming out (Zahn began writing after DE went into the works). Hence the lack of reference to TTT's events in Dark Empire, and why the prefered placement was Dark Empire before The Thrawn Trilogy, since it was too late to majorly change Dark Empire, and The Thrawn Trilogy was being produced later.

Shows us, how important DE was thought to be, if it was squeezed between two novel-trilogies.

Riiiight. Which is why Dark Empire was concieved under Marvel auspices, survived to under Dark Horse's, and recieved two sequels, produced years later due to its sheer success. It also explains why GL took a personal interest in telling Vietch about some of his brainstorming regarding the ancient Sith, why GL personally edited the originally concieved plot of DE, and why he so loved it he sent it to LFL employees as a gift that Christmas.

Chronological squeezing also explains why Shadows of the Empire, an LFL marketing blitz across comic, game, novel, toy, and a later follow-up, being squeezed between canon no less, is insignificant.

Teach me how to use that logic sometime.

And why orient your story on a comic, that is probabely never published?

And why would it not get published, given it had survived the change-over in comic publishers, and had been actively in the works for years?

[Icehawk]

What the hell was Zahns problem anways? Did he ever give a reason?

[YT300000]

What the hell was Zahns problem anways? Did he ever give a reason?

I'd imagine it was an aversion to KJA's raping of SW.

[President Sharky]

KJA had not even written his trilogy yet, dumbass. Zahn is just an asshole, and he probably thought it would intrude in his "creative process" if he made changes for the sake of DE. Too bad, now his villain's actions were overshadowed by those of the resurrected Emperor, and Thrawn was reduced to a mere pawn in Palpatine's game.

[YT300000]

KJA had not even written his trilogy yet, dumbass.

*Puts on gloves. Opens copy of Jedi Search. Reads publishing date*

Shit, you're right. 1994

[Lord Poe]

Rich Handley on DE and TTT

Well, this is partially true -- you may not know this, but actually, when Tom Veitch wrote Dark Empire, he was intending for it to occur soon after Return of the Jedi. Throughout its conception, that was going to be the plan, and so no mention of the Zahn books was made until the last minute, when Zahn refused to adjust his material to reflect the events of Dark Empire, and so Veitch was forced, with little notice, to move his story to the year AFTER Zahn's tales and write a hasty section of the text pages to smooth out the inconsistencies. Therefore, any inconsistencies between the Zahn and Veitch stories are not the fault of either author, but rather Lucasfilm, who neglected to tell either author about the other's work, and who forced Veitch to change his work with too little notice to make the transition a smooth one.

Rich Handley on DE and TTT 2

Because the comics and novels are all part of the same continuity (even though Tales of the Bounty Hunters contradicts both the Droids and Shadows of the Empire comics... oh well), and also because it was actually written first -- you see, in 1991, LFL sanctioned Dark Empire from Tom Veitch at the same time that they sanctioned Heir to the Empire from Tim Zahn. At the last minute, they realized they'd not done a great job of maintaining continuity and forced Tom to set DE (which originally took place soon after ROTJ) a year after the Zahn books, which occur 5 years after ROTJ. Make sense? Since that time, DE has had two sequels -- Dark Empire II and Empire's End -- with a third, Crimson Empire, due later this year.

Rich Handley on DE and TTT 3

I wouldn't really consider that a crime -- LFL considers the novels and comics the same continuity, which is why Exar Kun has been in the books and several of the novel characters have appeared in the X-wing comics. I think the problem wasn't Kevin's -- in fact, I applaud him for being one of the only authors to bother trying to work this piece of continuity in -- it was that Dark Empire has never never included on the novel timeline even though its events are integral to understanding what Kevin is talking about. Simply acknowledging Tom's work on the timeline would have solved this problem.

Rich Handley on DE and TTT 4

Lucas PERSONALLY approved Dark Empire. That's as per the author, Tom Veitch, himself. It was after Dark Empire and Tim Zahn's books that he took a back seat and let his staff deal with the books. Tom told me that Lucas personally told him he loved Dark Empire. Sorry!

Rich Handley on DE and TTT 5

Actually, Adam, I can tell you from being friends with Tom and having discussed this with him that Tom didn't invent the name. The only reason it was thrown into Dark Empire at the last minute (only in the text pages, mind you -- in the comic itself it says "Imperial City" and other such ambiguous names) was because Zahn had recently written Heir to the Empire and Tom was told he had to change DE to fit that. Originally, DE took place soon after ROTJ, but at the last minute, he was told to change things to work around HTTE. Thus, a lot of changes were made to the text pages to smooth out the inconsistencies between them.

Rich Handley: General Notes

Empire's End definitely had some problems, yes. It's much weaker than the previous two, and that's mainly due to two things...
1) Terrible art that doesn't measure up to Can Kennedy's work, and

2) Rushed pacing that results in some strange characterizations. However, the thing to remember is that this isn't entirely Tom Veitch's fault. Tom faced a LOT of problems with imposed length shortening and that sort of thing.

Originally, DE II was to be twelve issues and published after a graphic story album called Lightsider, and Empire's End was then to be a six-issue wrap-up. After Lightsider was scrapped, however, (and a shame that is, believe me -- it's wonderfully written) and the remaining two parts of the story were forcibly shortened, Tom was faced with squeezing eighteen issues of material into only eight issues, AND to do this without publishing the intervening second part of the story (Lightsider), which resulted in the unsatisfying final product that hit the stands. It's unfortunate that this happened -- I've loved the vast majority of Tom's SW work, especially the first Dark Empire, the first Tales of the Jedi, and Greedo's Tale from Tales From the Mos Eisley Cantina.

Tom's a very cool guy who really gives a damn about SW -- he's as into it as the rest of us on RASSM -- so it's frustrating to think that his swan-song in the SW universe was Empire's End. It's the same with the Marvel series -- the first storyline by Roy Thomas had a big green bunny and the last storyline by Jo Duffy had a bunch of telepathic bunnies, but the intervening 70 issues by Archie Goodwin and David Michelinie were high-quality stories that rival much of what's been published in recent years... and, yet, ask most people what they remember about the Marvel series and they'll say, "Uggh -- that was the series with all those stupid bunnies. It sucked!" Well, that's what's happened with Tom Veitch -- mention his name, and people say, "Eeeuuwww. He wrote Empire's End!", completely forgetting that he is very much a part of the reason the resurgence of SW was so successful -- along with Tim Zahn, Veitch helped usher in the new SW era with DE and TOTJ.

[Connor MacLeod]

Hey, Connor, given that everytime I state something which is Zahn's fault (this was Zahn's fault, KJA already added another Solo child and changed two of his major locales in his trilogy for Vietch's sake), care to do your own homework and prove me wrong, or are you just going to bitch from your fencepost?

No, I'm pretty sure its already rather evident that you'll take any opportunity you can to further your Zahn-bashing masturbatory fantasies. The fact that you pulled this shit in the "New continuity commentary" thread as well only supports the fact you'll take any and every opportunity to pursue your irrational obsession with Zahn.

And before you start accusing of someone not doing their "homework", maybe you should get off your lazy ass and actually POST some first. I don't recall anything every indicating Zahn refused to work with Veitch. Particularily since the stuff Wayne posted seems to indicate otherwise (there is also corroborating proof in the intro KJA wrote, IIRC) The fact is, you leapt to engage in yet MORE of your Zahn-bashing wankfests without providing a scrap of evidence to prove it.

PS: Oh, and fuck you too. Its not my fault you can't control your little mastubatory obsession with bashing Zahn at the slightest opportunity.

[FTeik]

The really annoying thing is, that people have to buy a sourcebook made by WEG to understand half the things going on in DE.

[Crown]

From Dark Empire the collection, specifically the intro by KJA;

<snip introduction>

In 1990, seven years after Jedi, the science fiction trade magazines reported that Bantam Books had signed with Lucasfilm to publish several sequel novels to the Star Wars films. Later, I read Timoth Zahn's Heir to the Empire --

<snip about praise of his own career, and being asked to write for the Star Wars franchise>

-- But the attention to detail and the research I have had to do for these Star Wars novels is incredibly more complex. For months, my office has been piled with scripts, reference books, novelizations, young adult adventures, just about everything that has ever been published about the Star Wars universe, including exhaustive role-playing supplements from West End Games.

The details established in the films are clear-cut and obvious to follow. A bigger problem comes along when we authors need to be consistent with each other. Since we are writting most of these novels concurrently, we have to be fully aware of the other developing stories even though our novels are set in different time frames.

<sinp about Lucy Wilson being incharge of continuity>

--She told us that we don't necessarily have to refer to everything that happens in other writers' adventures, but we must make certain that we just don't contradict anything.--

<snip about him getting in touch with Zahn in order to consult him on the characters he introduced so KJA wouldn't fuck them up (good job ) >

After getting those details, I went to work plotting one long storyline broken into three volumes. I produced a 30 page proposal and outline that described the "Jedi Academy" story in great detail (Crown says: if only it was rejected right there and then, oh well), which I mailed off to Bantam and Lucasfilm.

Only afterward did I learn of Tom Veitch and Cam Kennedy's Dark Empire, coming out from Dark Horse Comics. Naturally, Dark Empire takes place exactly between Timothy Zahn's and my trilogies.

I believe my responce was something incoherent (or at least unprintable). All of a sudden I had to factor an entire major story into what I had already plotted. As you read it, you will see that Dark Empire doesn't add minor things either!

<snip about the plot points that DE introduced, about the trouble that KJA now found himself in, and how he had to work very, very closely with Tom Veitch in order to make their stories mesh>

Still with me? Good.

My point is this; KJA didn't start writting the JAT until after he had read HttE. He was given an entire plethora of SW research material, and was specifically told by Lucy Wilson that he didn't have to reference anything, but he couldn't contradict. He then wrote his proposal for the JAT based on the information given to him, and only after this was he told about DE.

My point is this; we don't know if Zahn was told about DE at the same point in his story (rough outline), or more likely going by this much later (final draft, or even after the first one had been published)! This is a screw up at Lucasfilm end, not author, as Richard Handley said;

Therefore, any inconsistencies between the Zahn and Veitch stories are not the fault of either author, but rather Lucasfilm, who neglected to tell either author about the other's work, and who forced Veitch to change his work with too little notice to make the transition a smooth one.

I think it clears it up pretty much, Zahn wasn't told about DE (or if he was told it was too late to fix).

[Crown]

If you read the Dark Empire Trade Paperback, Keven J. Anderson talks about his negotiations with Tom Vietch over the plot lines. Given that Dark Empire was supposed to be three or four years after Endor, before the Rebels captured Coruscant and Zahn refused to write his trilogy taking into account the events of Dark Empire, so it had to wedge into the already-slated five year spot for TTT and the seven-year spot for JAT, it is thus Zahn's stubbornness which is a direct cause of the chronological placement of Dark Empire.

Well I just posted KJA account of events, as given in the Dark Empire trade paperback, and not even did it not say any such thing, it didn't even imply it. Care to show me what I missed?

[Lord Poe]

BTW, if anyone has any questions for Mike Horne, author of the "Dark Empire Sourcebook", PM me, and I'll forward them to him.

[FTeik]

Why did they have to turn Palpatine into one huge, f...ing vampire?

And why didn´t they go into detail about all the beautiful imperial warships ships seen there?

[Connor MacLeod]

BTW, if anyone has any questions for Mike Horne, author of the "Dark Empire Sourcebook", PM me, and I'll forward them to him.

Oh yeah, I forgot about him I noticed he got credited with thanks in the DE Trade Paperback, too.

[Techno_Union]

I liked it a lot. Like said before, the scale of it was very nice compared to all the other EU. The art, well it took some time to get used to, but it was good. I would have prefered it to have been longer, having the Eclipse II ram the Galaxy Gun and then the Gun fire on Byss destroying all the Imperial forces in one craptacular blast is a little pathetic. But it was nice to see the new ships, Eclipse, Allegiance, World Devastators, ect.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well, considering IP appears to have decided to slink off without either admitting error or attempting to defend his position, I'm going to assume that he's conceding and hoping to avoid admitting it.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Rich Handley on DE and TTT

Well, this is partially true -- you may not know this, but actually, when Tom Veitch wrote Dark Empire, he was intending for it to occur soon after Return of the Jedi. Throughout its conception, that was going to be the plan, and so no mention of the Zahn books was made until the last minute, when Zahn refused to adjust his material to reflect the events of Dark Empire, and so Veitch was forced, with little notice, to move his story to the year AFTER Zahn's tales and write a hasty section of the text pages to smooth out the inconsistencies. Therefore, any inconsistencies between the Zahn and Veitch stories are not the fault of either author, but rather Lucasfilm, who neglected to tell either author about the other's work, and who forced Veitch to change his work with too little notice to make the transition a smooth one.

Odd, Handley states that it was Zahn who refused to change anything, and even fingers that as the cause of moving the chronological placement of Dark Empire.

Q: Was it difficult to work with a well-known universe which was already created by George Lucas, Brian Daley's Han Solo books, West End Games, the syndicated comic strips and others?

TZ: ...I had some problems with the Dark Horse Comics series [Dark Empire], and persuaded them to let me not have to reference anything there."
(Timothy Zahn: From Heir to Last Command
Star Wars Adventure Journal vol. 1, issue. 1, Feb. 1994)

It was Zahn's own insistance which resulted in The Thrawn Trilogy not having to reference Dark Empire, which shoe-horned it into a post-Thrawn slot, since if Zahn didn't reference it, it couldn't possibly occur before his trilogy. Not only this, but Dark Empire was in the works in the late eighties, years before Zahn.

My second statement, clarifying my position:

Given that Dark Empire was supposed to be three or four years after Endor, before the Rebels captured Coruscant and Zahn refused to write his trilogy taking into account the events of Dark Empire, so it had to wedge into the already-slated five year spot for TTT and the seven-year spot for JAT,

Now compare:

Rich Handley:

you may not know this, but actually, when Tom Veitch wrote Dark Empire, he was intending for it to occur soon after Return of the Jedi. Throughout its conception, that was going to be the plan, and so no mention of the Zahn books was made until the last minute, when Zahn refused to adjust his material to reflect the events of Dark Empire, and so Veitch was forced, with little notice, to move his story to the year AFTER Zahn's tales and write a hasty section of the text pages to smooth out the inconsistencies.

Zahn:

TZ: ...I had some problems with the Dark Horse Comics series [Dark Empire], and persuaded them to let me not have to reference anything there."

Oh, what do you know, Handley and Zahn himself repeat exactly what I said.

Now Handley concludes it was all LFL's fault. How he can do that after awknowledging that it was a direct result of "Zahn refusal" to reference DE which placed it in a post-Thrawn slot and forced Vietch to come up with rushed half-ass references, and somehow that's LFL's fault for why Vietch's story doesn't line up with Zahn's? Handley and Zahn make it quite clear: Zahn refused to reference DE, and got LFL to except it, and therefore Vietch was obliged to shoe-horn his baby for Zahn's trilogy (despite the fact that DE had been in the works years earlier). I suppose that you could blame LFL for being accomplice to Zahn giving the finger to authors with projects preceeding his, but I don't think that exonerates the fact that he shoehorned continuity because he could not be bothered to reference a work he did not like, and shat on later on in the Hand of Thrawn duology.

Ok, whatever. Handley and I tell the same story, just we come to different conclusions from it. I think mine follows from what was just said better, but you can make your own decision.

P.S. Connor, suck my cock. I've had a lot of work to do with little time for a drawn-out response to an in-progress debate and was waiting on Genghis to send me the Adventure Journal quote. So kindly, fuck off.

[Crown]

Primus what you ignore is this;

Well, this is partially true -- you may not know this, but actually, when Tom Veitch wrote Dark Empire, he was intending for it to occur soon after Return of the Jedi. Throughout its conception, that was going to be the plan, and so no mention of the Zahn books was made until the last minute, when Zahn refused to adjust his material to reflect the events of Dark Empire, and so Veitch was forced, with little notice, to move his story to the year AFTER Zahn's tales and write a hasty section of the text pages to smooth out the inconsistencies. Therefore, any inconsistencies between the Zahn and Veitch stories are not the fault of either author, but rather Lucasfilm, who neglected to tell either author about the other's work, and who forced Veitch to change his work with too little notice to make the transition a smooth one.

Yes Handley tells us that Zahn refused to reference DE in his work, but we aren't told when Zahn was even told about DE. In the DE tradepaperback KJA himself admits that he didn't start writing the JAT until after Heir to the Empire was already published, and that he was given a plethora of SW continuity material to ensure he didn't fuck anything up, and even he wasn't given an inkling of DE until he already did a 30 page draft of the plotline of JAT.

Simply put; we don't know if Zahn was told during the same point of his writing progress, or even after HttE was published, or when TLC was on the final draft!

You can't just brush aside half of Handley's quote just to suit your anti-Zahn views.

[Illuminatus Primus]

That's all great and fine, but how is it that Zahn is the one who got to flop the intended order of the storylines? He refused, and therefore Vietch had to change his story.

Anderson was able to build an entire subplot out of one of the changes he was forced to make, and Zahn couldn't have tossed some references to damage on Coruscant and Palpatine coming back, and a two-year old or something that one of the kidnapping attempts aimed at?

As is, Vietch ended up looking stupid, as diplomat Leia goes back to being a freedom fighter, Han's with his smuggler contacts, and Luke is still reliving the consequences of ROTJ and his brushes with the Dark Side.

Zahn decided he had problems with Vietch's work and just ignored DE.

Neither of us have information about when this happened, so how is an argument in your favor either? We do know that Vietch was forced to account for Zahn's refusal "at the last minute" according to Handley.

[Lord Poe]

So IP, you're just going to pick and choose what you like, and ignore all the other evidence? That's not what we're about. These quotes by Handley were over the course of several years; each post SIMILAR, not definitive.

The REASON Zahn refused to change his timeline was explained. You continue to ignore it. The EU wasn't established back then as it is today. Comics had FUCK-ALL to do with novel continuity when Zahn started his work. Then at the last minute, as a hard working author constructs a well structured story, he's told to CHANGE it? For a stupid COMIC? I'd say fuck no too.

[Crown]

That's all great and fine, but how is it that Zahn is the one who got to flop the intended order of the storylines? He refused, and therefore Vietch had to change his story.

Anderson was able to build an entire subplot out of one of the changes he was forced to make, and Zahn couldn't have tossed some references to damage on Coruscant and Palpatine coming back, and a two-year old or something that one of the kidnapping attempts aimed at?

As is, Vietch ended up looking stupid, as diplomat Leia goes back to being a freedom fighter, Han's with his smuggler contacts, and Luke is still reliving the consequences of ROTJ and his brushes with the Dark Side.

Zahn decided he had problems with Vietch's work and just ignored DE.

That cuts both ways. If Zahn was told about DE after HttE was already published (just like KJA) then here a few things that are going to make Zahn look like an idiot;

• Neglecting to mention that the Emperor came back.
• The Empire is now no longer on the outer finge of the Galaxy but in its core.
• Leia and Han already having Anakin, because you know the whole C'boath - Thrawn love fest was about kidnapping Jedi children, so you would think he would have come up.

The list goes on and on.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The REASON Zahn refused to change his timeline was explained. You continue to ignore it. The EU wasn't established back then as it is today. Comics had FUCK-ALL to do with novel continuity when Zahn started his work. Then at the last minute, as a hard working author constructs a well structured story, he's told to CHANGE it? For a stupid COMIC? I'd say fuck no too.

Oh, I see, even though the other author has been working for longer, because the comic is stupid. Point was, there WAS continuity, and they weren't going to let things just happen willy nilly.

Congratulations. This is exactly why I think Zahn's an asshole.