Vader & Princess Leia

[Grand Admiral Mango]

It's the same in the original version, it's a storm trooper.

[SirNitram]

Besides, Leia wasn't a Jedi at that time (though as far as I know, she never really got all the way into it in the EU), so she really didn't have any skills at all. She was just merely Force sensitive.

This would have a sliver of credibility if it wasn't for the fact even the movies agree Latents have access to some power. Or are you completely forgetting/ignoring Anakin's ability to race via precog?

[vakundok]

I just checked ROTJ (sp.ed) for a different reason, not this small debate, but I also watched this scene. I can confirm with 100% certainty that the blaster bolt struck the bunker on the right side. You get to see the burned hole in right after Leia was hit, two times. Although the blaster bolt makes it look like she was hit, the hole isn't even very close to her.

Could you create a screenshot, or at least specify, where that hole is? (For example, there was a burned spot right from her head before she was hit.)

Other:
The guards in the prison of the DS1 produced sparks.
The AT-ST pilot Leia hit (when she got back her weapon) produced sparks.
Greedo produced many many sparks.
Living trees produced sparks.
Both the ewok catapult and the flying wing produced sparks.
The (translated) novelisation writes that Leia was hit on her arm.
The script available on the net writes: "... suddenly cries out in pain, her shoulder hit by a laser blast."

Ehh, forget it! I beg your pardon for my disturbance.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Besides, Leia wasn't a Jedi at that time (though as far as I know, she never really got all the way into it in the EU), so she really didn't have any skills at all. She was just merely Force sensitive.

This would have a sliver of credibility if it wasn't for the fact even the movies agree Latents have access to some power. Or are you completely forgetting/ignoring Anakin's ability to race via precog?

Whatever, forget it.

Though is there any evidence of Leia ever doing anything that has more than a flegling of access to the Force?

[nightmare]

I just checked ROTJ (sp.ed) for a different reason, not this small debate, but I also watched this scene. I can confirm with 100% certainty that the blaster bolt struck the bunker on the right side. You get to see the burned hole in right after Leia was hit, two times. Although the blaster bolt makes it look like she was hit, the hole isn't even very close to her.

Could you create a screenshot, or at least specify, where that hole is? (For example, there was a burned spot right from her head before she was hit.)

Screenshots yes, upload them no. My webspace is down. The most visible time is when Han is raises his hands when he thinks they're caught by Chewie's AT-ST. From there you can trace it backwards easily. There's also a blooper since the hole is gone shortly afterwards. (Was this either recorded first, or is the hole only there in the sp ed? dunno.. I haven't got the originals, sob. But I'll get the DVD for sure..)

[YT300000]

Other:
The guards in the prison of the DS1 produced sparks.

Armour.

The AT-ST pilot Leia hit (when she got back her weapon) produced sparks.

Armour.

Greedo produced many many sparks.

Probably had hidden armour under clothes- he's a bounty hunter.

Living trees produced sparks.
Both the ewok catapult and the flying wing produced sparks.

Probably just tiny superheated chunks of wood being flung out.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

It would be better if you didn't use armour as a magic bullet, especially in the cases where people clearly weren't wearing armour (such as the DS prison guards).

[Illuminatus Primus]

Isn't body armor sometimes worn under BDUs though?

[YT300000]

It would be better if you didn't use armour as a magic bullet, especially in the cases where people clearly weren't wearing armour (such as the DS prison guards).

How do you know they aren't wearing armour? It could be under their uniforms, or it could BE their uniforms (remember the silkish sweater of armour from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter?). After all, equipping your guards with armour makes quite a bit of sense.

[Ghost Rider]

It would be better if you didn't use armour as a magic bullet, especially in the cases where people clearly weren't wearing armour (such as the DS prison guards).

DS Trooper

How do you know they aren't wearing armour? It could be under their uniforms, or it could BE their uniforms (remember the silkish sweater of armour from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter?). After all, equipping your guards with armour makes quite a bit of sense.

You do undwerstand it's your onus to PROVE such.

It's never mentioned in canon thus saying it's likely they are wearing armor is akin to saying that the X-Wing Helmets have built in HUDs.

[Illuminatus Primus]

His evidence is the sparks themselves and real world knowledge of material behavior.

When was the last time flesh and fabric sparked enormously?

[Ghost Rider]

His evidence is the sparks themselves and real world knowledge of material behavior.

When was the last time flesh and fabric sparked enormously?

In the DS guards had sparks flying from them and not melting fabric?

[Utsanomiko]

How do you know they aren't wearing armour? It could be under their uniforms, or it could BE their uniforms (remember the silkish sweater of armour from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter?). After all, equipping your guards with armour makes quite a bit of sense.

How do you know he's not actually a war-droid? Maybe he's got stinger missiles that fire out of his nipples, or Corellian durni in his chest that's loaded into a catapult, ready to be launched at rebel scum and chew bees at them!

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: That guard went up in smoke and flamage. It's not his guts, and it's not metal sparks.

[YT300000]

How do you know they aren't wearing armour? It could be under their uniforms, or it could BE their uniforms (remember the silkish sweater of armour from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter?). After all, equipping your guards with armour makes quite a bit of sense.

How do you know he's not actually a war-droid? Maybe he's got stinger missiles that fire out of his nipples, or Corellian durni in his chest that's loaded into a catapult, ready to be launched at rebel scum and chew bees at them!

Because those make no sense. Whereas mine does.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: That guard went up in smoke and flamage. It's not his guts, and it's not metal sparks.

I haven't seen ANH in far too long, but IIRC, it had a similar effect to a bolt from Leia's DDC Defender hitting ST armour.

[Ghost Rider]

How do you know they aren't wearing armour? It could be under their uniforms, or it could BE their uniforms (remember the silkish sweater of armour from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter?). After all, equipping your guards with armour makes quite a bit of sense.

How do you know he's not actually a war-droid? Maybe he's got stinger missiles that fire out of his nipples, or Corellian durni in his chest that's loaded into a catapult, ready to be launched at rebel scum and chew bees at them!

Because those make no sense. Whereas mine does.

When you have no proof aside from your own supposition it does not matter how outlandish the other person remarks are...they need proof for BOTH.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: That guard went up in smoke and flamage. It's not his guts, and it's not metal sparks.

I haven't seen ANH in far too long, but IIRC, it had a similar effect to a bolt from Leia's DDC Defender hitting ST armour.[/quote]

Then you recall wrong since it emitted smoke as from fabric and flesh being burned.

1:07 Han fires, Officer emits smoke, no sparks.

1:13:03, 1:13:07 Both an officer and Death Star Guard shot dead center...smoke, no sparks.

So please show that this is not melted fabric and flesh.
There are no sparks.

So unless you can show sparks being emitted from either the guard from when Han shot him or in the detention area where Luke and Han shot them. You have no standing.

[Connor MacLeod]

I just checked ROTJ (sp.ed) for a different reason, not this small debate, but I also watched this scene. I can confirm with 100% certainty that the blaster bolt struck the bunker on the right side. You get to see the burned hole in right after Leia was hit, two times. Although the blaster bolt makes it look like she was hit, the hole isn't even very close to her.

Could you create a screenshot, or at least specify, where that hole is? (For example, there was a burned spot right from her head before she was hit.)

Other:
The guards in the prison of the DS1 produced sparks.
The AT-ST pilot Leia hit (when she got back her weapon) produced sparks.
Greedo produced many many sparks.
Living trees produced sparks.
Both the ewok catapult and the flying wing produced sparks.
The (translated) novelisation writes that Leia was hit on her arm.
The script available on the net writes: "... suddenly cries out in pain, her shoulder hit by a laser blast."

Ehh, forget it! I beg your pardon for my disturbance.

Fine. Please explain why the hell LEIA DID NOT REACT IMMEDIATELY WHEN THE BOLT HIT HER. If I get hit by a bullet, I'm not going to remain unaware of it for a noticable period of time.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Not entirely true. Soldiers in combat situations have been shot and been noncognizant of the fact until pointed out by a compatriot (read Mark Bowden's Black Hawk Down account of the Ranger/DELTA action in Mogadishu, Somalia for examples).

[Elfdart]

I always thought of the Force and the ability to detect it as being kind of like radar. If you don't use it, it's hard for the enemy to tell if you have it since there are no "signals" being transmitted.

By the time of Yavin, Luke's connection to the Force was awakened, so there were obvious signals that Vader would notice. Leia had nothing to do with the Force until TESB, after she had taken off from Cloud City.

This would also explain why nobody can detect Palpatine's powers: He never uses them around others!

[Connor MacLeod]

Not entirely true. Soldiers in combat situations have been shot and been noncognizant of the fact until pointed out by a compatriot (read Mark Bowden's Black Hawk Down account of the Ranger/DELTA action in Mogadishu, Somalia for examples).

Except that it wasn't pointed out to Leia by someone else. She DID react to it...eventually. The problem is is that there was a big bright flash with sparks and stuff that persisted for a good quarter second at LEAST before she even started to express a reaction - prior to that she remained looking back at Han with virtually the same expression on her face. No change in facial expression, no flinching, no motion whatsoever, nothing.

[1337n1nj4]

Not entirely true. Soldiers in combat situations have been shot and been noncognizant of the fact until pointed out by a compatriot (read Mark Bowden's Black Hawk Down account of the Ranger/DELTA action in Mogadishu, Somalia for examples).

Except that it wasn't pointed out to Leia by someone else. She DID react to it...eventually. The problem is is that there was a big bright flash with sparks and stuff that persisted for a good quarter second at LEAST before she even started to express a reaction - prior to that she remained looking back at Han with virtually the same expression on her face. No change in facial expression, no flinching, no motion whatsoever, nothing.

Human reaction times to pain and physical trauma, esp. under stressful combat conditions, aren't necessarily going to be instant.

I can personally attest to the fact that taking physical trauma while emotionally aroused and focused elsewhere doesn't make for instant reaction times to said pain.

There's also the matter that the brain itself doesn't always interpret such signals as pain at the moment they occur, if there's a sufficient volume of tissue affected at once. A blaster bolt to the shoulder would probably qualify.

[Connor MacLeod]

Not entirely true. Soldiers in combat situations have been shot and been noncognizant of the fact until pointed out by a compatriot (read Mark Bowden's Black Hawk Down account of the Ranger/DELTA action in Mogadishu, Somalia for examples).

Except that it wasn't pointed out to Leia by someone else. She DID react to it...eventually. The problem is is that there was a big bright flash with sparks and stuff that persisted for a good quarter second at LEAST before she even started to express a reaction - prior to that she remained looking back at Han with virtually the same expression on her face. No change in facial expression, no flinching, no motion whatsoever, nothing.

Human reaction times to pain and physical trauma, esp. under stressful combat conditions, aren't necessarily going to be instant.

I can personally attest to the fact that taking physical trauma while emotionally aroused and focused elsewhere doesn't make for instant reaction times to said pain.

There's also the matter that the brain itself doesn't always interpret such signals as pain at the moment they occur, if there's a sufficient volume of tissue affected at once. A blaster bolt to the shoulder would probably qualify.

Why do we neccesarily assume that pain would be the only reaction she would have, though? Are all her senses totally numb or something? She won't feel any heat? the impact on her arm? The melting/vaporization of her clothing (much less flesh)? Not even see or react to the obviously bright flash that accompanies the effect? I find that highly unlikely.

[1337n1nj4]

It's still a matter of focus and attention. Remember, you're talking about a fraction of a second here-- this is a person, not a Culture Mind

Somatic nerve feedback is all received from neural afferents. There's not going to be much of a delay from any one of those signals reaching the brain-- a few ms, maximum, IIRC. That's a *lot* of stimuli for the brain to sort through, hence the delay in recognizing pain-- the same holds true for the other factors. Over such a short span of time, yeah, it's not surprising she didn't notice it at the *instant* it happened.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

1337, we're talking about someone getting shot in the shoulder here.

Actually of someone getting hit in the shoulder from a grazing bolt that hit the wall...

It's bad logic to define the average according to the exceptions.

[Ghost Rider]

Actually it isn't just the instant but literally the sparks end, and she reacts.

Versus

Almost every other occasion wherein a person gets shot the reaction is instaneous.

Also think of this way...it's a bit off tangent but some value. In ESB Vader gets a shoulder hit from a lightsaber and reacts the instant he's hit...and this is through armor.

[YT300000]

When you have no proof aside from your own supposition it does not matter how outlandish the other person remarks are...they need proof for BOTH.

True, I only have the evidence of how materials react in real life- perhaps not totally applicable here.

Then you recall wrong since it emitted smoke as from fabric and flesh being burned.

1:07 Han fires, Officer emits smoke, no sparks.

1:13:03, 1:13:07 Both an officer and Death Star Guard shot dead center...smoke, no sparks.

So please show that this is not melted fabric and flesh.
There are no sparks.

So unless you can show sparks being emitted from either the guard from when Han shot him or in the detention area where Luke and Han shot them. You have no standing.

Conceeded. I don't have my copy of ANH around, so I am not able to debate this right now.