Latest OT Change -ROTJ (Spoilers)

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-05-20 06:42am

Galvatron wrote:I hate how people rationalize this crap by basically saying that Lucas is actually correcting a "flaw" in the OT ("Sebastian Shaw was too old") when all he's really doing is revising good Star Wars to conform to the overriding authority of shitty Star Wars.

Silence OT purist! Don't ye know that George Lucas can do no wrong? Verily, Lucas is the bosom of our collective hearts. Begone from my sight, naysayer!

(and yes, I'm being facetious)

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-05-20 06:46am

I await the standard: "Fuck you! Star Wars belongs to Lucas and he can do whatever he wants with it!"

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-05-20 06:47am

The more to infuriate fan-masses without infuriating me, the better. I just love fan-drama. Almost like rabid doomsday-prophets....

Or was that too condecending....?

Star Wars belongs to Lucas

I´m afraid that´s true....

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-05-20 12:25pm

Mange the Swede wrote:
Stofsk wrote:
VT-16 wrote:There, there, I´m sure the nice mr. Lucas will make a special, un-altered version just for you....
Don't patronise me.

I don't like the rumoured changes, and I make no pretence about that. If you can tell me why seeing Hayden Christensen's face is both necessary and required for the ROTJ DVD, then by all means do so. If you can tell me why it is no vital to replace Sebastian Shaw's face with Hayden Christensen's, then do so.
Because Sebastian Shaw looks to darn old in that shot, he looks like the 80-year old man he was.

People age differently. You have people looking older than they are.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-05-20 12:32pm

Dooey Jo wrote:Come on! GL can't be that stupid!

Luke would be thinking something like: "Oh there's Ben, and Yoda! And... who the FUCK is that?!". If they're going to put Hayden's face there instead of Sebastian Shaw's, they have to change Luke's expression to be more like: . He knew Darth Vader was his father, he saw what he looked like under his mask. He did NOT know how he looked fucking 20 years ago! He couldn't possibly know that guy beside Yoda was supposed to be his father!

The only way to fix it would be to... replace Shaw's face with Hayden's in the Death Star scene too!! Nooooo! This can't be true!!!

And for this I say again I am glad for the Laser Discs DVDs I made.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-05-20 12:42pm

VT-16 wrote:
Galvatron wrote:Star Wars belongs to Lucas
I´m afraid that´s true....

And I therefore reserve the right to criticize him mercilessly for fucking it up.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-05-20 01:02pm

Galvatron wrote:I hate how people rationalize this crap by basically saying that Lucas is actually correcting a "flaw" in the OT ("Sebastian Shaw was too old") when all he's really doing is revising good Star Wars to conform to the overriding authority of shitty Star Wars.

I'm afraid that you've misinterpreted my post. It's not only because of Shaw being too old, but because it would also fit the Star Wars mythos.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-05-20 05:56pm

I don't see at all how that could be, Mange.

I mean, seriously, why? Why would Anakin's spirit reflect his appearence 25 years ago? In the original version, Anakin's spirit reflected him at the time of his death, just like Ben and Yoda's did. His lack of scarring is representative of his redemption and the return of goodness in his heart.

And while Shaw was about 77 when RotJ was filmed, I don't really think that his age did any harm to his portrayal and appearence as Anakin: while Anakin was only about fifty when he died, we are basically talking about a man who fell into a molten pit more than two decades previous, was a quadreplegic cripple who couldn't even breathe unassisted, and was a very powerful former Jedi and Dark Lord of the Sith. I personally don't expect Anakin to look like anything other than a weak man who time has not been at all kind to.

The point is that Anakin's spirit did and should reflect how he appeared in life at the time of his death and redemption, not something idiotic like how he appeared before his fall.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-05-20 06:33pm

I think it's ridiculous to call the prequels "shitty" and ROTJ "good Star Wars". Jedi was the weakest by far and benefitted more from the SEs than the other two.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2004-05-20 06:36pm

Gandalf wrote:I thought the ghost was supposed to represent Anakin before he turned to the dark side?

Darth Vader died as Anakin Skywalker. His ghost is him as he would have been, unmaimed and corrupted.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2004-05-20 06:38pm

Elfdart wrote:Jedi was the weakest by far

I await your reasoning.

and benefitted more from the SEs than the other two.

Yes, let's throw in the plant from "Little Shop of Horrors"!

Even if it was the most deserving of the three OT movies to be updated, that does not make it worse than TPM and AotC.

Josaphat · Post by **Josaphat** » 2004-05-20 08:12pm

It's gotta be fake.

I just looked at my divx of ROTJ, the pose is identical, the costume is identical. Hayden isn't built like that. It's fanboy wank.

Darksider · Post by **Darksider** » 2004-05-20 08:14pm

I hope so.....

::::::Sits in a corner huddling my VHS copy of the OT theatrical edition:::::

It'll last forever, It'll last forever, it'll last forever...............

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-05-20 11:10pm

The SE Return of the Jedi removed the "Yub-yub" song at the end and replaced it with regular music. HUGE improvement.

Return of the Jedi took Han Solo, the coolest character in the series, and had him play second fiddle to muppets and teddy bears. That sucks. What was almost as bad was making Luke and Leia brother and sister. It was an obvious cop-out and made the recovery room kiss in TESB look creepy as hell.

I don't have as much invested in the PT characters, so if they seem flat and colorless, I don't consider it that much of a loss.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-05-20 11:18pm

Ah, a superficial whiner. Lovely...

The burden of proof is on you to prove that having Luke and Leia as siblings was a cop-out, rather than something they planned since ESB.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2004-05-20 11:18pm

Josaphat wrote: I just looked at my divx of ROTJ, the pose is identical, the costume is identical. Hayden isn't built like that. It's fanboy wank.

Well why edit the body when the head's the only thing you HAVE to change?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-05-20 11:26pm

From what I remember, for both this and the ESB picture, the actual images themselves weren't confirmed as being real, but only that they accurately represented the actual changes that have been confirmed to be worked on.

So keep in mind that just because the pictures are fake, doesn't mean that the changes being done are.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-05-20 11:28pm

Elfdart wrote:The SE Return of the Jedi removed the "Yub-yub" song at the end and replaced it with regular music. HUGE improvement.

I doubt you'll find serious proponents for any of the SE, however, I do admit that of all three the ROTJ SE is the least offensive.

Return of the Jedi took Han Solo, the coolest character in the series, and had him play second fiddle to muppets and teddy bears. That sucks.

I can't argue with that, because I agree. ROTJ did portray Han Solo's character in a less favourable light, particularly after his spectacular efforts in ESB - to go from evading Death Squadron to getting bailed out by furry little rodent-men is a low blow indeed.

What was almost as bad was making Luke and Leia brother and sister. It was an obvious cop-out and made the recovery room kiss in TESB look creepy as hell.

Meh. I would have liked to have seen more implications earlier in the previous two films, to make it look like they had always been siblings and had only found out in the last film, but either way I'm not too pissed. I thought both came off well in terms of characterisation.

Furthermore, the first 45 mins of ROTJ are superb. Jabba was cool, and the hero's fight on the Sail barge was also cool. I think ROTJ fails in it's highly improbable battle at the end, though I trust that goes without saying. (also, am I the only one who thought Mon Mothma was a useless character that replaced Leia's role? I would have had Leia give the 'inspiring speech' to the gathered rebels, rather than some hitherto unknown character who appears seemingly out of nowhere)

I don't have as much invested in the PT characters, so if they seem flat and colorless, I don't consider it that much of a loss.

So you think ROTJ is the worst film of the lot because the PT characters have no flavour? Come on. ROTJ is infinitely more enjoyable than fucking TPM. Like someone has in his sig: "Jar Jar makes the Ewoks look like fucking shaft." Also ROTJ is much easier to sit down and watch; I get bored watching TPM, and to a lesser extent AOTC.

Josaphat · Post by **Josaphat** » 2004-05-20 11:28pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote:
Josaphat wrote: I just looked at my divx of ROTJ, the pose is identical, the costume is identical. Hayden isn't built like that. It's fanboy wank.
Well why edit the body when the head's the only thing you HAVE to change?

b/c it isn't. If GL wishes to show that a Jedi spirit appears as they did before they died (either truly, or in spirit, leaving behind an empty shell of evil, etc...) then they would need to show Anakin as he looked before he fell to the dark side (presumably this is when he falls into the lava, and emerges looking like something a 10 year old does with a magnifying glass and a G.I. Joe on a summer). That is, not with the broad shoulders and huge chest of Shaw, but with the comparatively lanky frame of Hayden Christianson.

In other words, this screenshot represents either a conceptual work created to show GL what it would look like (in which case it is somewhat understandable to use already available shots of Hayden for the head, and to edit as little as possible), or more likely, it was created by someone outside of LFL, as a joke or to garner credit, and in this case they can do little else but use already available images of Hayden and a screenshot from ROTJ.

All things being equal, I’m betting on fanboy wank. It doesn’t mean that GL isn’t contemplating this change; it just means I don’t think this screenshot is the product of anyone associated with LFL.

[Edit: after re-reading the original link, I relize I'm beating a dead horse.]

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-05-20 11:37pm

Josaphat wrote:b/c it isn't. If GL wishes to show that a Jedi spirit appears as they did before they died (either truly, or in spirit, leaving behind an empty shell of evil, etc...) then they would need to show Anakin as he looked before he fell to the dark side.

No, that is not required at all. You see, the central theme for ROTJ is the redemption of Vader - and you can't get that in a vaccum. Listen to Luke's words:

"There is still good in him."

"I can feel the conflict within you father, let go of your hate!"

And let's not forget what Sebastian Shaw, as the REDEEMED Anakin Skywalker has to say:

(But I've come to save you -!)

"You already have, Luke. You were right - you were right about me. Tell your sister - you were right."

What this means is that even when Anakin fell to the dark side and became Darth Vader, there was still good in him, otherwise he couldn't be turned. NOT ONLY THIS, but the REDEEMED Anakin Skywalker quite rightly looks like Sebastian Shaw. Ergo, Luke should be seeing Anakin as he last saw him: as an old man, not a young twenty something brat.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-05-20 11:46pm

Both trilogies are actually centrally about Anakin: his rise, temptation, fall, and finally his redemption.

Josaphat · Post by **Josaphat** » 2004-05-20 11:48pm

Stofsk wrote:*snip*

Hmm, perfectly valid. Yeah, it does seem a pointless change, I'm with you there. I've never been bothered by the effects updates Lucas added in SE, and I normally just gloss over the "Greedo shooting first" moments, but I still can't imagine him contemplating such a drastic change to the film as this, it doesn't add anything to the experience, it just makes it seem so, dynamic; a little stability in the message isn't a bad thing. Anyway, here's hoping…

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2004-05-21 12:05am

Josaphat wrote:
DPDarkPrimus wrote:
Josaphat wrote: I just looked at my divx of ROTJ, the pose is identical, the costume is identical. Hayden isn't built like that. It's fanboy wank.
Well why edit the body when the head's the only thing you HAVE to change?
b/c it isn't. If GL wishes to show that a Jedi spirit appears as they did before they died (either truly, or in spirit, leaving behind an empty shell of evil, etc...) then they would need to show Anakin as he looked before he fell to the dark side (presumably this is when he falls into the lava, and emerges looking like something a 10 year old does with a magnifying glass and a G.I. Joe on a summer). That is, not with the broad shoulders and huge chest of Shaw, but with the comparatively lanky frame of Hayden Christianson.

In other words, this screenshot represents either a conceptual work created to show GL what it would look like (in which case it is somewhat understandable to use already available shots of Hayden for the head, and to edit as little as possible), or more likely, it was created by someone outside of LFL, as a joke or to garner credit, and in this case they can do little else but use already available images of Hayden and a screenshot from ROTJ.

All things being equal, I’m betting on fanboy wank. It doesn’t mean that GL isn’t contemplating this change; it just means I don’t think this screenshot is the product of anyone associated with LFL.

[Edit: after re-reading the original link, I relize I'm beating a dead horse.]

For Christ's sake, n00b, I was being sarcastic.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-05-21 01:40am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:The burden of proof is on you to prove that having Luke and Leia as siblings was a cop-out, rather than something they planned since ESB.

"...the ending was the coronation of Leia as the queen of what was left of her people, to take over the royal symbol. That meant she was then isolated from all of the rest and Luke went off then by himself. It was basically a kind of bittersweet ending. She's not his sister that dropped in to wrap up everything neatly. His sister was someone else way over on the other side of the galaxy and she wasn't going to show up until the next episode."

-Gary Kurtz on the original direction planned for ROTJ

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-05-21 09:38am

If Luke & Leia were meant to be siblings, why would Lucas have them swapping spit in TESB? Especially when you consider that these movies are made for pre-adolescents.

I think it's better to not have very colorful characters (PT) in the first place than to take great characters like Han Solo and turn then into clowns (ROTJ).