Is there really light and dark?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-06-23 04:53am

Techno_Union wrote:Well I was under the impression they became "one" with the Force out of free will or need. The darkside thought consumes you literally, has anyone every thought of how many clone Palpatine has? Also, I thought Yoda and Obi did that themselve, since we never see another Jedi do this unless its a special circumstance.

You can figuratively say they were 'consumed' by the light side, or as you say they became 'one with the force', but they both make sense; 'consume' has negative connotations, I mean, who the hell wants to be consumed? As far as I know Palpatine had a lot of clones, and the darkside consumes you in an accelerated way. Yoda and Ben 'let themselves go', so it was by choice - however, Yoda did feel the end come upon him, and Ben may have felt a noble sacrifice will help more than finishing Vader off and slicing through the stormtroopers, so both choose almost out of necessity.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-06-23 05:45am

Crown wrote:
Yes I know that snipping is bad form but you have a problem because George Lucas has officially called Force Lightning a 'Sith Power' which flat out contradicts Vegere's spiel about it being a legitamite force power if 'used with the proper intention' bullshit she was on about.

THAT's when Vegere's crap begins to heavily contradict the movies, and George Lucas himself. Which is why it no longer becomes a philisophical discussion about intent but a specific power actually being of the Dark or Light side of the force.

Except that only Jacen himself has subscribed to the "Force Lightning is intent" purpose. Even then, both Jacen and Jaina only mention that Force Lightning is evil, if used to kill, instead of their lower "stun" settings. And since Jaina and Jacen both drawn on rage, and the Dark Side of the Force to power it.............

Furthermore, the Sith is a religious/philosophical order, whoose interpretation, knowledge and usuage of the Force is different from the Jedi. Unlike the Jedi, they believe not only in using the Dark Side of the Force, but in controlling the Force for their own personal use and power, unlike the Jedi who eschew the Dark Side of the Force as well as believe in being servants to the Force will as well as other beings. So, calling it a Sith power merely means that the Sith Order developed and used this power, and that Jedi do not use this power, probably because of its ability to hurt and kill its opponents. IOW, it is against their philosophy.

So, to sum up, we know that the Force is triggered by the agression and hate of its user, both from its description, similarly found in the NJO usuage. Indeed, the only difference for its light side equivalence is "intent", it is still powered by anger, rage, agression. And we all know where that comes from.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-06-23 06:57am

Then please explain through the thought of intent how

A. Palpatine Ages more then anything other force user, but not being anything beyond powerful.

B. The whole shroud of the Dark Side that Yoda constantly exclaims.

C. The Tree...what it was just a massive overdose of intent?

D. The constant hammering that feelings of hatred of suffering bring infusions of energy(sorry the ardrenlin analogy loses itself very quickly)

And finally

The fact that then mention the Dark Side as both user and a seperate side within the movies. They neer mention the light but the give many mentions of the Dark...seems odd if it's all one big same boiling pot.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2004-06-26 12:39am

I have been converted... thanx to the authors of the NJO and to Rouge Planet. I now believe in the teachings of the P something damn i forgot name. Its the teachings that state that there is no light or dark side of the force. The force flows through everything and there is no evil or good aspect of it. It is the person who weilds it who dicides how to use it and in what way to use his/her power.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-06-26 07:32am

Tychu wrote:I have been converted... thanx to the authors of the NJO and to Rouge Planet. I now believe in the teachings of the P something damn i forgot name. Its the teachings that state that there is no light or dark side of the force. The force flows through everything and there is no evil or good aspect of it. It is the person who weilds it who dicides how to use it and in what way to use his/her power.

In that case, please explain why there is such a thing as evil, and the Dark Side of the Force as a physical manifestation? In JAT, we saw the sceptre absorb Dark Side energy/Force, the cave as per canon was tainted with the Dark Side of the Force.
"I feel cold" is a physical response that Luke Skywalker had from the cave, a Force attenuation. How do you explain that?

Although the NJO teachings may be reconciled with the Son of Suns prophecy, indeed, the reason why the Vong appeared instead of another Sith war was due to George Lucas refusal to allow any more Sith stories into the EU, as the Son of Suns would had abolished all evil.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-06-26 06:41pm

Without wishing to start up yet another "Eu vs canon" debate, is there any evidence just from the higher canon (non-EU) that Palpatine is "aging rapidly"?

I mean if he's in his 50's in TPM, and in his 80's in ROTJ, doesn't that explain what an old guy who runs a galactic empire might look like, without having to assume the Force ravages his body so that he needs to clone himself constantly?

I mean sure if he's aged so fast he has had to burn through several bodies in a four year period alone and he still looks like he's 86, that's sure saying something, but where do we get this idea other than from the EU?

Because he'd have to keep himself looking his "natural age" for everyone around him for decades, wouldn't he?

The only "consumption" I recall from the movies is when Palpatine "explodes" when he's tossed over the side by Vader, but then some have tried to argue that that is just his force lightning reacting with the "power core" or whatever dangerous crap is down that particular shaft.

Then again, look at Vader, he looks like he's in his 70's when Luke takes his mask off. This wasn't really a problem until the prequels came out and it was established as only 37 years between TPM and ROJT (and Anakin looks to be only 9-11 years old, so he could be pushing 50 at best).

Then again, not everyone ages as gracefully as everyone else and being in a position of authority like that can make a person more "stressed out" (look at any US president just before going into office and just after, and that's just 4-8 years of being in power over one nation!). Vader was also a cripple with many problems, and he didn't need to show his face to anyone, so personal grooming and good looks were out the window first. He may have had electrolysis on his head so he wouldn't have to worry about hair inside that helmet for example.

Maybe the Darkside in general "ages" people, but then if that's true, one wonders why Luke doesn't look any worse for wear in the EU even after his basically being the Clone Emperor's "right hand man" for awhile.

But I've gotten off track. From the movies/movie canon materials, where's the support for the dark side-rapid aging notion?

And I'll anticipate one objection right off the bat (that of "perfect" cosmetic surgery's use among the elderly in Star Wars): we've got 'old-looking people' in the movies too. Dooku, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Jocasta Nu, and if you want non-Force/alien examples: Chancellor Valorum, Sio Bibble.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-06-26 06:44pm

They mention about his aging in the RoTJ novel as being somewhat unnatural.

Another thing though is if the Force(if it's all one thing) does anything to aging it should be extension.

I mean the EU contradicts itself greatly on this regard given that they bring up that Light Siders can extend their lifespans by centuries, by using the Light Side...so why doesn't any DarkSider do the same if it's all one pool?

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-06-26 06:52pm

Interesting! Since I don't have the novel with me, can someone quote me the relevant part?

I mean, I'm not saying that the aging stuff HAS to be Republic/Jedi propaganda ("don't go to the Darkside, it's bad for your health insurance, like smoking!"), but I'd like some more data.

The "rapid aging" deal is an old standby from pulp fiction/movies/lore so it could fit. Evil Wizard/Scientist tampers with magic/science and achieves great power, but since he "messed with something he shouldn't have" he's punished by losing his youth/good looks. So that's probably what inspired the writers. I just wanted to know where it started in Star Wars.

Cool.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2004-06-26 10:33pm

PainRack wrote:
Tychu wrote:I have been converted... thanx to the authors of the NJO and to Rouge Planet. I now believe in the teachings of the P something damn i forgot name. Its the teachings that state that there is no light or dark side of the force. The force flows through everything and there is no evil or good aspect of it. It is the person who weilds it who dicides how to use it and in what way to use his/her power.
In that case, please explain why there is such a thing as evil, and the Dark Side of the Force as a physical manifestation? In JAT, we saw the sceptre absorb Dark Side energy/Force, the cave as per canon was tainted with the Dark Side of the Force.
"I feel cold" is a physical response that Luke Skywalker had from the cave, a Force attenuation. How do you explain that?

Although the NJO teachings may be reconciled with the Son of Suns prophecy, indeed, the reason why the Vong appeared instead of another Sith war was due to George Lucas refusal to allow any more Sith stories into the EU, as the Son of Suns would had abolished all evil.

The thing about the teachings in the NJO books and Rouge Planet, i wish i could remember the name. Is that in Rouge Planet which takes place in the Old Republics aging days, pits Obi Wan in situation where the native members of Zenoma Sekot tell him that outsiders (Jedi Regects) of the Older Republic set up a teaching that there is no light or dark. This is not a debate of cannon and EU its a debate over the teachings of the Jedi Order and the Premodium (something like that). Obi Wan and the Jedi Council disliked the Premodiums teachings and kinda pushed it aside. Since Zenoma wasn't seen for another 40 years the Jedi seemed to forget about the teachings of the Premodium and it wasnt until Lukes students in the NJO heard of the Premodium.

As for the Yoda and Luke on the cave on Degobah since Luke said he felt cold, Yodas natural Jedi Code response would be that the Dark Side resides in their, he and the old Jedi Order dosen't take the Premodiums teachings in their own

Trekdestroyer · Post by **Trekdestroyer** » 2004-06-29 05:02pm

I believe the Dark Side is a real part of the Force produced by hate,anger and fear. Anybody who tells you otherwise is crazy!

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-06-30 10:21pm

Tychu wrote: The thing about the teachings in the NJO books and Rouge Planet, i wish i could remember the name. Is that in Rouge Planet which takes place in the Old Republics aging days, pits Obi Wan in situation where the native members of Zenoma Sekot tell him that outsiders (Jedi Regects) of the Older Republic set up a teaching that there is no light or dark. This is not a debate of cannon and EU its a debate over the teachings of the Jedi Order and the Premodium (something like that). Obi Wan and the Jedi Council disliked the Premodiums teachings and kinda pushed it aside. Since Zenoma wasn't seen for another 40 years the Jedi seemed to forget about the teachings of the Premodium and it wasnt until Lukes students in the NJO heard of the Premodium.

As for the Yoda and Luke on the cave on Degobah since Luke said he felt cold, Yodas natural Jedi Code response would be that the Dark Side resides in their, he and the old Jedi Order dosen't take the Premodiums teachings in their own

First of all, explain the physical reaction Luke had to the Dark Side.
Second of all, the Premodium teaches that the Force consists of only the Light, there is no Dark Side. This may be true if one considers the Son of Suns prophecy, but that still does not negate the existence of the Dark Side, and its physical effects on Force Users.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2004-07-03 11:56pm

First of all, explain the physical reaction Luke had to the Dark Side.
Second of all, the Premodium teaches that the Force consists of only the Light, there is no Dark Side. This may be true if one considers the Son of Suns prophecy, but that still does not negate the existence of the Dark Side, and its physical effects on Force Users.[/quote]

all Luke says is he felt cold when he was entering the Cave, Yoda but in and said it was the dark side. the Premodium im sorry if you missunderstood me, teaches there is no light or dark side aspect of the force. It is the way a person chooses to use this superhuman power of controlling nature or living in harmony with it. Luke felt cold because the presence of a sith lord now dead used his powers with dark intentions. It was not the force that was dark but the person was dark and chose to use his powers for hate.

the Jedi of old dont belive in this simply because if there was no light or dark aspects of the force, what guiding power do they have in a Republic that treats them as guardians of peace and justice and the protection from corruption and darkness? And they were afraid to lose thier power in the Old Republic. To tell you truthfully if SW was real and I a Jedi during the Clone Wars i would have went to the seperatists the Jedi really are arogant and brainwashing people that needed to be changed. Lukes Jedi are diffrent they are naive but not corrupted and arrogant

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-07-04 12:01am

The biggest problem is that the Movies adher to a thought of light and darkness.

Yoda, Mace, Luke, Vader, Palpatine, Dooku all avow knowledge of two sides, thus unless you can show within canon there is just one all compassing field and the Jedi and Sith are wrong...it really doesn't matter in the end what the EU says about the Force.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2004-07-04 12:15am

Ghost Rider wrote:The biggest problem is that the Movies adher to a thought of light and darkness.

Yoda, Mace, Luke, Vader, Palpatine, Dooku all avow knowledge of two sides, thus unless you can show within canon there is just one all compassing field and the Jedi and Sith are wrong...it really doesn't matter in the end what the EU says about the Force.

Im sorry if i was missunderstood again. My plight in this topic was not to disprove of the light and dark side but just tell my tale of my beliefs in the Star Wars galaxy on the force. All i said was that there is a teaching im pretty sure is called the Premodium that resides in many of the Outer rim worlds were derelict Jedi of old went and taught their teachings to their students. Zenoma Sekot is one such planet where the sentients were taught by former Jedi under the Premodium teachings that there is no light or dark aspect of the force and its all up to the user to use his powers in his own darkness or his lightness. This is the teachings in what I believe in the Star Wars galaxy. I can explain it in real life terms. Im a Catholic i belive in one way of the bible under Christianity while there are Protestant teachings of another way to understand the bible under Christianity. Both are sects of Christianity just diffrent teachings. the Premodium and the Jedi Code and teachings are just 2 diffrent sects of the teachings of the Force.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2004-07-04 03:43am

What's so funny is all the die hard movie buffs say 'light/dark' while all the warsies with EU intent say 'no light/dark'.

It should be obvious what Lucas thinks on this matter. While the NJO made it very interesting and actually easy to understan, I called bullshit on the matter. It is interesting mind you, however, this is not something the book directors have a say on. It was already established there's a light and dark, yet they have to 'explore it' and show the 'truth' of the matter.

If there was no light/dark to the Force, are you saying one gets drunk on thier own power//abilities. If there is no 'dark' side then how can one be tempted by the 'dark side' of the force? Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. So if there's no light/dark how can you be dominated by dark actions.

Inevitably, if you have to concentrate or let go to maintain a light presence and your tempted to do evil, then doesn't that imply a psuedo God/Satan relationship to the Force? I see it as light/dark sides of the Force.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-07-04 08:11am

Tychu wrote: all Luke says is he felt cold when he was entering the Cave, Yoda but in and said it was the dark side.

Except the perception of cold is clearly a Force rumination by Luke. Please note that lesser canon materials also inserted the word "death". I hesitate to do this, but the New Rebellion also supports this contention with the cold, death emnations from millions of people dying.

the Premodium im sorry if you missunderstood me, teaches there is no light or dark side aspect of the force. It is the way a person chooses to use this superhuman power of controlling nature or living in harmony with it. Luke felt cold because the presence of a sith lord now dead used his powers with dark intentions. It was not the force that was dark but the person was dark and chose to use his powers for hate.

Didn't Vegere say that the Premodium taught that there was only Light? I haven't read Rogue Planet yet.

Furthermore, saying that there is no Light/Dark aspect, but only because the Sith Lord used his powers for hate is specious. The fact remains that there was a taint on the physical and Force environment, caused by this usuage of dark force powers. If there is only Light, as what Vegere said, or if there is only the Force, why is there an evil remmant that tainted the environment of the cave?

If there is only the Force, explain then how the Force can be used for evil, and retains an evil mental imprint? Even if this imprint was implanted by a Sith lord using the Force for evil, the fact that the Force remains tainted by this imprint says that there is a Dark/Light side aspect to the Force.

the Jedi of old dont belive in this simply because if there was no light or dark aspects of the force, what guiding power do they have in a Republic that treats them as guardians of peace and justice and the protection from corruption and darkness? And they were afraid to lose thier power in the Old Republic. To tell you truthfully if SW was real and I a Jedi during the Clone Wars i would have went to the seperatists the Jedi really are arogant and brainwashing people that needed to be changed. Lukes Jedi are diffrent they are naive but not corrupted and arrogant

Ergo, the Balance to the Force prophecy. I have no problems in claiming that the Jedi Order is massively flawed, like the Templars, they have arrograted power and wealth to themselves and as a result, fell aside from the "true path".

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-07-04 08:15am

Kurgan wrote:Interesting! Since I don't have the novel with me, can someone quote me the relevant part?

I mean, I'm not saying that the aging stuff HAS to be Republic/Jedi propaganda ("don't go to the Darkside, it's bad for your health insurance, like smoking!"), but I'd like some more data.

The "rapid aging" deal is an old standby from pulp fiction/movies/lore so it could fit. Evil Wizard/Scientist tampers with magic/science and achieves great power, but since he "messed with something he shouldn't have" he's punished by losing his youth/good looks. So that's probably what inspired the writers. I just wanted to know where it started in Star Wars.

Cool.

Its a relic from the Dark Empire comics as well as its attendent RPG material, where the Emperor had to go through a series of clones so as to retain his youth and body. The Dark Side of the Force coursing through him supposedly destroys his body youth and vitality.

Interestingly, HTTE suggests that the Force is responsible for extending Palpatine life.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-07-04 08:26am

I think there is the light and dark sides, but it's not black and white. Meaning there is pure dark side and pure light side, but there is also shades of gray between them kind like the force scale in KOTOR.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2004-07-04 11:17pm

Going by that, you can seek to be one or the other but at some time you can easily fall prey to falling to the Dark Side (or embracing strongly your convictions and be saved and become a true Light Sider) as the final "choice" showed us in the game

The only true "mid-sider" was the old guy who had kinda given up on Jediing and was a hermit.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2004-07-05 01:34am

PainRack wrote:Interestingly, HTTE suggests that the Force is responsible for extending Palpatine life.

Actually, that was C'baoth, not Palpatine. IIRC, Luke heard a rumor about the Jedi Master Jorus C'baoth resurfacing, and notices that if the rumor is true he'd be over a hundred.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-07-05 02:58am

Darth Yoshi wrote:
PainRack wrote:Interestingly, HTTE suggests that the Force is responsible for extending Palpatine life.
Actually, that was C'baoth, not Palpatine. IIRC, Luke heard a rumor about the Jedi Master Jorus C'baoth resurfacing, and notices that if the rumor is true he'd be over a hundred.

It also applies to Palpatine, as Luke wondered how old he really was. Considering that his age ranges from 50-60 during the Clone Wars.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2004-07-10 01:40am

the Premodium im sorry if you missunderstood me, teaches there is no light or dark side aspect of the force. It is the way a person chooses to use this superhuman power of controlling nature or living in harmony with it. Luke felt cold because the presence of a sith lord now dead used his powers with dark intentions. It was not the force that was dark but the person was dark and chose to use his powers for hate.

Didn't Vegere say that the Premodium taught that there was only Light? I haven't read Rogue Planet yet.

Furthermore, saying that there is no Light/Dark aspect, but only because the Sith Lord used his powers for hate is specious. The fact remains that there was a taint on the physical and Force environment, caused by this usuage of dark force powers. If there is only Light, as what Vegere said, or if there is only the Force, why is there an evil remmant that tainted the environment of the cave?

If there is only the Force, explain then how the Force can be used for evil, and retains an evil mental imprint? Even if this imprint was implanted by a Sith lord using the Force for evil, the fact that the Force remains tainted by this imprint says that there is a Dark/Light side aspect to the Force.

I can give you a plausable response to the taint of the dark side still in the cave, you can take it or throw it away. Let i remind you the details on the Premodium are sparse. Many people dont know it exists and its only in really 2-3 novels (Force Hertic combined 2 books on characters talking about it). other SW stuff far outweighs it and i cant work with alot.
Anyways the reason why there is still a taint of the "dark side" in the cave can be explained. the taint dosent rely on the sheer power of dark but really on that dark side users can easily manipulate its surrondings and life forms around it. The dark side user had to manipulate his environment to block his presence from other force uses, much like what Yoda did to hide himself. Therefore the plants which seem to be dense in popluation were tainted and everything around it living in the area was tainted with the dark side from the "dark" force user, not the energy of the dark side of the force.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-07-10 11:35am

Tychu wrote: I can give you a plausable response to the taint of the dark side still in the cave, you can take it or throw it away. Let i remind you the details on the Premodium are sparse. Many people dont know it exists and its only in really 2-3 novels (Force Hertic combined 2 books on characters talking about it). other SW stuff far outweighs it and i cant work with alot.
Anyways the reason why there is still a taint of the "dark side" in the cave can be explained. the taint dosent rely on the sheer power of dark but really on that dark side users can easily manipulate its surrondings and life forms around it. The dark side user had to manipulate his environment to block his presence from other force uses, much like what Yoda did to hide himself. Therefore the plants which seem to be dense in popluation were tainted and everything around it living in the area was tainted with the dark side from the "dark" force user, not the energy of the dark side of the force.

Except that according to the Spectre of the Past, or was it Vision of the Future, arggh. Thrawn duology, what happened to cause that dark side cave thingy was a Bfpassh Dark Jedi challenging Yoda to battle.

Even then, the argument should be that he changed the environ to be a "light side" environ, so as to hide his presence. Frankly, I also do not believe in this theory of Luke Skywalker, because we saw that Obiwan Kenobi could hide perfectly well.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2004-07-10 11:05pm

Ive heard of the Dark Jedi thing, but i havent read the Thrawn Duology, im reading New Rebellion right now, I ONLY HAVE 4 more books to read until im caught up (counting the new hardcover that came out last year with Luke and Mara on the cover) damn 7 long years of reading SW books.

Like i said earlier i only have 2-3 books to work with the Premodium teachings vs everything else force related SW. Through the limited teachings my only response can be that the dark Jedi used his Force powers in anger and hatred and influenced the environment around him with hatred and anger.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2004-07-11 01:58am

Question, in the movies, do they every say "Light/Dark Side of the Force" specifically, or just "Light/Dark Side"? Because if they never actually say "of the Force", then they may be speaking about the Light/Dark side of human nature.