New Jedi Order Critique

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-11-02 03:14pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
Alyeska wrote:I have only read 4 NJO books. Dark Tide 1&2, Rebel Stand, and Rebel Dream. Thats cause they are from the better SW writers.

Now... I have heard a rumor taht Zahn will write the last few NJO books. If this is true, then we can only hope that Zahn pulls it together in the end and writes some good stories. We already know Allston and Stackpole managed to write good books in a questionable series.
Zahn is not writing in the NJO. Allston and Stackpole are both slightly above average writers. By far the best book of the series thusfar was Star by Star.

True but both are far above par for the EU. And both can write a pretty good story.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-11-02 03:17pm

I always have trouble praising Stackpole because he is so wildly inconsistent. X-Wing 3 was superb. Dark Tide 1 was superb. But whenever he reminds me of why I like some of his books, he comes back and delivers a weak book right afterwards. Dark Tide 2 was only average. I, Jedi had about 50 pages of material crammed into 600, and some of his other works have been ho-hum, kind of like he's writing for the sake of writing, instead of telling a story that needs to be told.

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-11-03 05:29am

Alyeska wrote:I have only read 4 NJO books. Dark Tide 1&2, Rebel Stand, and Rebel Dream. Thats cause they are from the better SW writers.

Now... I have heard a rumor taht Zahn will write the last few NJO books. If this is true, then we can only hope that Zahn pulls it together in the end and writes some good stories. We already know Allston and Stackpole managed to write good books in a questionable series.

Luceno is writing the NJO finale

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2002-11-03 03:51pm

Your fucking shitting me aint you Vasey. Luceno is only the most bad ass Star Wars writer. He rivals Zahn and Allston. As for the prequel books real quick, only Cloak of Deception was good, and by far it out weighs almost all of the other books I've read. Much like Shadows of the Empire. The NJO though sucks so much ass it's fucking pathetic. It's just weak how they made the NR fall. Agents of Chaos duology, and the Enemy Lines duolgy I would say are must reads though. Amazing how those two writers really broke through and added back what the Star Wars EU needed. Excitement and practicallity. Star by Star was alright, it's definitely better than the other books. Destiny's Way is just fucking sad. Traitor was actually a somewhat desent book, but Destiny's Way just craps all over things.

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-11-03 06:10pm

You've gotta be kidding me his NJO duology was absolute tripe. Either the powers that be forced a really shit plot on him or the guy sucks big time.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-11-03 06:12pm

Crazy_Vasey wrote:You've gotta be kidding me his NJO duology was absolute tripe. Either the powers that be forced a really shit plot on him or the guy sucks big time.

DIE

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2002-11-03 09:26pm

No way, it was fucking awesome. There is no doubt about Luceno's bad ass skills. Michael Reeves who wrote Shadow Hunter on the other hand must have just run through and added words like 'the' 'and' 'or' 'jumps' here in there to the outline of the book and called it done. Shadow Hunter just sucked donkey balls, especially after reading Cloak of Deception.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2002-11-03 11:00pm

Haven't read any of them. After hearing about Chewbacca death and about the YV, it stayed that way, perhaps I'll eventually read them, when I see the books at the library. I AIN'T BUYING THEM!!

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-11-03 11:17pm

THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:Haven't read any of them. After hearing about Chewbacca death and about the YV, it stayed that way, perhaps I'll eventually read them, when I see the books at the library. I AIN'T BUYING THEM!!

Don't buy them, only Star By Star even comes close to being worth the moeny. I suppose some time after they're done I'll read the all but they really aren't that good. They really just suck. Poor stories, a bad over all plot, and lots of characters killed for no good reason. And the Vong suck ass, period.

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-11-04 05:47am

DG_Cal_Wright wrote:No way, it was fucking awesome. There is no doubt about Luceno's bad ass skills. Michael Reeves who wrote Shadow Hunter on the other hand must have just run through and added words like 'the' 'and' 'or' 'jumps' here in there to the outline of the book and called it done. Shadow Hunter just sucked donkey balls, especially after reading Cloak of Deception.

Yes Shadow Hunter is one of the poorer books in the EU, I never could see why see why nearly everyone liked it, can't be that many Maul fanboys aroumd.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2002-11-04 02:06pm

That's what sucks the most about it. I thought Maul was awesome. That a story about him would just rock. He came close, he kept him pretty silent and stalking, and very murderous. It just lacked as a whole. What's worse, is that Reaves worked on the Batman the Animated series for crying out loud. Either way, they need a good Darth Maul book. We also need Luceno to come back and write something else. Maybe the novelisation to Episode III!!! BTW, I thought the novelisation to Ep II lacked as well. Didn't think you could screw that up, but oh well.

Micheal Ryans, Beta pilot · Post by **Micheal Ryans, Beta pilot** » 2002-12-19 02:32pm

If they don't find a way to bring back Anakin Solo then I am going to stop reading the NJO books. My personal favourites are the Edge of Victory duology, mainly because Anakin is central to the story in them, but also because someone finally decides to blow the Vongs major shipyard at Sernpidal(and, surprise, surprise, its the Rogue squadron and Kyps Dozen).

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-12-19 02:34pm

Meh, Anakin's gone, not much you can do about that.
Now we need Stover to write more SW books, damn they are GOOD!

Rightous Fist Of Heaven · Post by **Rightous Fist Of Heaven** » 2002-12-19 02:49pm

So far i have read: Rebel Dream, Rebel Stand, Star By Star (this fucking rocks big time), Rebirth and Destinys Way. I have loved every single one of them, i think that the NJO series is mostly extremely good because it breaks boundaries, it breaks the illusion of invinsible jedi and it breaks character shields. Major characters have died in the series but their death has had a meaning. Anyways, everyone has their own oppinion on this matter, some like NJO, some dont. So far i like NJO very much. And all this bitching of the Vong, i personally like the Vong as an enemy, since they are a true enemy, a true evil. But anyhow thats just my oppinion.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2002-12-19 02:52pm

The only salvation for the EU is to scrap NJO etc and concentrate on more books like Shadow Hunter. For instance how a book or 5 about the Chiss and how Thrawn actually got where he did, coz there seems to be some contradiction there. All the best EU books i've read, in my opinion, gave us a good look at characters before the OT. I'd also like to see a book concentrating on Mara Jade as the Hand. but if KJA gets ti write them i'll piss on them rather than read them.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-19 04:37pm

The books aren't consistent enough (I just finished Dark Journey and boy did they book ever blow) for my liking, I especially don't like where we had a couple of books painting Anakin as the second coming then the Vong offed him, while yes its a shock (or would have been if I didnt know before hand) it just made the previous two books seem diminished.

Then we come to the NR Republic -
Scene: Secret NR military planning meeting shortly after fall of Coruscant.
General 1 - Hey guys I have had a thought, you know how we have been fighting this war for over twos years.
General 2 - Sort of
General 1 - Well I have an idea why don't we attack the enemy?
General 3 - attack.... the... enemy hmmmmm
General 4 - by the force why didn't we think of this earlier....
Me: Just the question I have been asking for about 8 books now

Luke Skywalker: Come on guys it only took me 1.5 years to figure out fighting the huge enemy hordes that had killed and enslaved billions and intended to dominate, twist and outright destroy the entire galaxy would be a good idea.

Put simply the NR makes the French look like an effective military (although in truth the military didnt see a major fleet action for about 2 years at which point half of them ran away), so maybe I shuold say the NR senate makes the UN look decisive.

Then the Vong -
Vong:We are going to destroy your entire galaxy, provided of course you don't fight back because our defenses are so weak they can't even stop torps that aren't lit up like flares.
NR: Well we will wait till after you take over our homeworld to exploit this advantage k?
Vong: Sure its a deal.

The vong are simply too weak to pose a crediable threat to the NR so it seems far too contrived when they defeat the NR.

While some of the individual books are a good read the story arc jumps about too often and sometimes things important to the arc are slapped into the books for the sake of it (last 2 pages of Dark journey is clearly a setup for the next books yet it comes out of nowhere showing the writer hasn't done a good job of carrying on the arc and just threw in arc info as an after thought).

I wish the empire was still around because the NJO series would have lasted less than half a book consisting mostly of th Emperor have a fun time blowing up worldships with his vong crushing force (a single sector fleet should about do it).

So again some indivual books are good but the arc as a whole is just to artificial to bother with (he says as he starts reading Rebel Dream).

Admiral Piett · Post by **Admiral Piett** » 2002-12-19 06:08pm

Then we come to the NR Republic -
Scene: Secret NR military planning meeting shortly after fall of Coruscant.
General 1 - Hey guys I have had a thought, you know how we have been fighting this war for over twos years.
General 2 - Sort of
General 1 - Well I have an idea why don't we attack the enemy?
General 3 - attack.... the... enemy hmmmmm
General 4 - by the force why didn't we think of this earlier....
Me: Just the question I have been asking for about 8 books now

Luke Skywalker: Come on guys it only took me 1.5 years to figure out fighting the huge enemy hordes that had killed and enslaved billions and intended to dominate, twist and outright destroy the entire galaxy would be a good idea.

Christ, Darth Vader would be strained by sheer number of incompetents to choke.

"Put simply the NR makes the French look like an effective military"

Why should the frenchs have a military worse than anyone else in the same league? Irrispectively of what the eurobashing Goebbels who write your newspapers say they are not worse than anyone else.They lost to the germans like everyone else did until later in the war.Many of them collaborated with the Nazi like everyone else did and even the americans would have done if placed in the same situation.They got their asses kicked
in Vietnam,like,surprise suprise,you did despite your overwhelming material advantage.They had essentially put the algerian insurgency under control when the political decision to pull out was finally taken.And finally they kicked the Iraquis when they met them.Note that being able to kick iraqui asses is considered a proof of american invincibility but for some odd reason this does not apply to the frenchs.

"The vong are simply too weak to pose a crediable threat to the NR so it seems far too contrived when they defeat the NR."

No, the Vong are essentially a pile of clichès,from the organic technology to the civilization devoted to death and destruction.How christ you can have a civilization based around only death and destruction? No one thinks that maybe, just maybe it would self destructive?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-19 06:38pm

wow the UK lost in veitnam? the things you learn.

Im English its a condition that your must make fun of the French of else they disown you and do horrible things (send you to Wales)

.

I was simply joking about the French military because its a common thing to make fun of them (check out any thread on space battles regarding the worst mmilitaries etc)

PS While its true the US did have a portion of people who favoured the Germ,ans half of France welcomed Hitler showing up (also the UK didn't loose to the Germans since we did roll over

).
I also dont think beating the Iraqi's should be considered a major achievement by anyone.

That being said this isnt the forum for such things.

On the thread topic, seeing Vader let loose on the NR senators, Jedi and Generals wuold have be a sweet sweet event.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2002-12-19 09:14pm

The EU won't die because there is going to be another series of books. This time they will be focusing on the clone wars. On starwars.com they confirmed that a series of books focusing on events that take place during the clone wars will be made and might evne begin within the next year if my memory serves me correctly.

, Now I know how trek fans feel about Enterprise. The bastard cousin no one likes to talk about.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-12-19 10:37pm

Crown wrote:In order to make it a credible threat to the NR (and the Jedi in particular, something which according to rumours George himself wanted), without falling back into the 'Dark Jedi' cliche, the writers gave us a species which were using bio-tech , were Jedi strong , were Jedi fast , and are blind/invicible to the Force . Basically they took all the 'truths' in the Star Wars universe and discarded them . They are insalting. Example; the YV aren't apart of the force, but then again neither are inanimate objects like rock's and droids, but the Jedi don't have any difficulty with those, because the Force still penetrates them. But for some reason when facing a YV warrior, a Jedi can't touch them with the Force (actually they can is some books and not in others, which brings up the whole continuity thing)! WTF?

These YV are Jedi fast and strong, hmmm a species that can move as fast as Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan the TPM? Sure.... Here's another thing the writers have let us down with, so what if the Jedi can't use the Force to 'touch' the YV, they can still use the Force to 'enhance' their abilities can't they? I mean we see examples of them doing to 'jump real high', but when, oh when, are we gonna see a Jedi just say; Fuck it. And then 'press' the fast forward button, and just slice the fuckers up?

Another thing that really angered me... It took till the 14th book of this terrible series for an authour to say; 'Hang on a tick, couldn't we just use orbital bombardment?'. For fucks sake, this series is being written by retards. And now for the 'organic-tech' rubbish: WTF are these dovin-slug things eating in hard space, when they are being deployed as mines? Could someone please answer this for me? And the fucking 'mini-black hole' crap they create? WTF? It would be just a danger to them as the it would be a defence. Think about it, it creates a black hole, say 1 kilometer away from it's self in order to stop an incoming attack. So far okay, fine and dandy, but why aren't they sucked into the sucker as well? Why aren't they, at the very leased, ripped out of the ship? Ahhhh!

I hate the entire series, for fucks sake I just hope that in the end some character 'sneezes' on the YV, they all get the common cold, which their immunes system can't deal with, and they and their entire organic-tech bullshit, dies out with them.

Don't even get me started as to how an outside galactic force with ZERO support base could just swoop in and take over, what is it now half? Quater of the galaxy?

Just need to clear something up here. The droids and rocks ARE a part of the Force. If you will remember Yoda saying the Force is everywhere, he said in the rock and even in Luke's X-Wing. This is why Luke is able to raise Artoo and the rocks. The only things the Force does not exist in are the YV and the Ysalimari. So apparantly the YV somehow exert more subtle properties in which the Ysalimari exert. They are immune to the Force, but do not create an "anti-Force bubble" around them the way the Ysalimari do. It somehow remains only within their bodies.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2002-12-19 11:11pm

Basicallly the Ysalmari and the Vong are the officials over the EU going
'George, what Yoda said, can't happen. We need a scape goat. The Force isn't in everything. We're taking it away were we feel like it.'

In fact, one of the NJO books either Jacen or Anakin think to themselves, 'Yoda was wrong!'

Wtf! They didn't know Yoda. Only what Luke had told them. The NJO personally is just fucked three ways from Sunday.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-19 11:18pm

Talk about cheapening the Force, I don't care how good some EU writers supposedly are, when some hack decides to declare Yoda wrong ... fuck it pisses me off.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-12-19 11:49pm

So then...death to Zahn?

Admiral Piett · Post by **Admiral Piett** » 2002-12-20 03:44am

[quote="TheDarkling"]wow the UK lost in veitnam? the things you learn.

No of course.Although others commonwealth countries, Australia and new Zealand partecipated.And several of the australian and New Zealand units sent there had british SAS instructors.

"PS While its true the US did have a portion of people who favoured the Germ,ans half of France welcomed Hitler showing up (also the UK didn't loose to the Germans since we did roll over

).
I also dont think beating the Iraqi's should be considered a major achievement by anyone."

If for some miracle (because no less would have been necessary) Seelowe
had succeeded they would have made you change idea.
The frenchs did not welcome the germans more than the poles did.

Back to topic.
The dialogue you have quoted is telling.Those people deserve a one way ticket to the next airlock.
But the Yuuzahn Vong are the most moronic aliens conceivable.The NJO orders must have taken the ST concept of aliens.
Quite frankly I am awaiting for the moment someone will come here screaming that one of the NR navy captains orders "engage" àla Picard.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-20 03:54am

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:So then...death to Zahn?

No, just Ysalamiri are fucking stupid.

He's a good writer, but it's not like he's Ernest Hemmingway or something ...