What makes TPM suck?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-08-15 03:06am

Galvatron wrote:TPM bothered me because of it's early start in the SW timeline, lack of a strong presence by a compelling villain, and the underdevelopment of the (IMO) all-too important friendship between Anakin and Obi-Wan.

This is how I'd have done it...

The Clone Wars would be bigger and involve scores of regional galactic superpowers embroiled in an ever-escalating series of wars against each other with the various factions continually devising faster or more efficient means of generating and supplying their enormous clone armies.

The Republic and the Jedi would be caught in the middle, trying to keep the peace whenever possible and rendering assistance to those who request aid in defending their territories against the aggressors.

That's where Episode 1 would begin.

Anakin would start out as a brilliant yet dutiful 20-something fighter pilot in General Kenobi's army. Old beyond his years from seeing too many of his comrades die, he's developed a hatred for war and a cynical resentment toward the Republic and the Senate for not taking decisive action to achieve a lasting peace. At this point, Anakin isn't personally acquainted with Obi-Wan...

Speaking of Obi-Wan, he'd start out as a legendary Jedi Knight and general of the 202nd Galactic Army which has been ordered by the Chancellor to defend the Alderaan sector against incursions by the Mandalorian Hegemony. Like Anakin, Obi-Wan is war weary, but has the maturity and training to remain collected and serene in most situations. He's a true leader of men.

Anyway, battles take place, Anakin meets Obi-Wan, they get shot down and end up stranded within hostile territory. Adventure ensues. The two men end up as good friends, saving each others lives time and again, yadda, yadda, yadda...

That's how I'd set the tone for the prequels...

Enemy Mine, in the SW universe?

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2004-08-15 03:20am

Me likes Galvatron's idea. I kinda wish that's how Lucas made TPM.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-08-15 03:26am

My biggest gripe about the Phantom Meneace was the gunguns and Anakin Skywalker.

Anakins Skywalker was too young. He should have been older. His dialogue and acting was also terrible. I mean in the original triology Darth Vader redifined badass and here you have a whiny ten year old.

The gungans are another problem's with the Phantom Meneace. They were intended to be happy merry society to please the kids. But this is Star Wars, we need futuristic armoured soldiers not some stupid amphibian.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-08-15 03:26am

Knife wrote:Enemy Mine, in the SW universe?

Um, no. Anakin and Obi-Wan aren't enemies. And they wouldn't get shot down on some barren, unpopulated world.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-08-15 03:57am

While I think that TPM is the weakest Episode in the Saga, I can't say that it sucks. There are a number of things in it that I like:

* Some scenes have a genuine Star Wars feel.
There are some small scenes that feels absolutely like Star Wars. Exampels of such scenes are the scene where Shmi explains her virgin birth and the small scene where Qui-Gon makes the deal with Watto before the Pod Race. Especially the music in the last scene mentioned is haunting and foreboding.

* Jar Jar.
Yes, I liked Jar Jar! I thought he was a funny character and a homage to Buster Keaton. However, I didn't like the two fart jokes.

* All scenes with Ian McDiarmid.
What can I say? He's a brilliant actor!

* The light-sabre duels.

* The space battle.
Not on par with anything from the OT, but good nevertheless.

Some other things are weak, most notably Jake Lloyd, but what could you expect from a nine-year old? I think his performance is adequate, and I don't think it's strange that Anakin would yell a little Yippie at his age.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-08-15 04:12am

Jar Jar wouldn't have been so bad if he'd spoken an alien language (e.g. Nien Nunb in ROTJ) instead of that unintelligible pidgin English. I practically needed subtitles to understand him anyway!

And if he'd been give some redeeming moment of heroism at the end his character may have proven worthwhile, but as it stands now he was useless. A CG gimmick that contributed nothing of real value to the story.

dworkin · Post by **dworkin** » 2004-08-15 06:12am

(Open credits)

Star Wars
Episode 1: The Phantom Menace

It is the twilight of the GALACTIC REPUBLIC
Throughout the galaxy, planets and even sectors are breaking away from the ancient republic and declaring their independance. Wars and conflict rage across the galaxy and even the Republic's famed JEDI KNIGHTS find it hard to keep the peace.
All hope is not lost, even now the influential Queen Amidala travels to restore old treaties and alliances. Due to the importance of her mission, two Jedi Knights have been assigned to protect her. But even they may not be enough...

******

(Space) A Republic cruiser comes into view, laser cannons firing at a swarm of smaller craft. The larger ship is clearly outmatched and is badly damaged. It's engines stop and several of the enemy move in too board.

(Inside the ship) The Queen and the Jedi indulge in some exposition while the crew prepare for boarders. The Trade Federation is attacking because 'War is good business and their battle droids sell like (alien food) in this environment

(Cut to outside) Six fighter craft reminiscent of an X-Wing (The 'Headhunter') drop in from hyperspace and begin attacking the pirate craft. Although outnumbered, their skill and daring win the day.

(Inside) The ship captain confers with the Queen as their rescuer wants to meet them. Enter Anikin Skywalker, hotshot pilot with an arrogant swagger. He is the leader of the local defence squadron. When asked by a frosty Queen why he wasn't here earlier he airily replies 'Space is big.'.
While the two bicker the Jedi enter. Skywalker is obviously in awe of them. The Jedi mention that the ship needs a new hyperdrive. Skywalker assures them that the best parts will be found on Tatooine and he insists on escorting them...

They all go have adventures. Sidious still is behind the conflicts and sends his henchthing Darth Maul to slay the Queen. Romance blooms between the Queen and the Hero.

Movie ends with Anikin being told the duties and obligations of a Jedi knight. Prominent will be mention of celibacy and a shot of Anikin looking at Amidala...

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-08-15 06:29am

bad:

- Anakin: too young, annoying and there are better actors with his age
- Jar Jar: nuff said
- Gungans as a race
- Lame battles
- Killing of Darth Maul

Good:

- Padme
- lightsabre duel
- Darth Maul

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-08-15 07:11am

dworkin wrote:*snip*

All good, except for the Tattooine connection. I cannot stress enough how sick of that shithole I am...

But it's good because it shows Anakin as a fighter pilot the FIRST time we see him. Galvatron's idea is also pretty damn good as well, except I would change Obi-wan's rank of General to something a little lower - make him a subordinate to another leader, which was something I liked in TPM (by the end Obi-wan becomes the leader, but not at the start).

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-08-15 08:01am

I think it might have been cool to have Anakin come from Alderaan. This way, when he's there for it's destruction in ANH it has a bit more meaning.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-08-15 08:16am

Gandalf wrote:I think it might have been cool to have Anakin come from Alderaan. This way, when he's there for it's destruction in ANH it has a bit more meaning.

You touched on something which really disappoints me about the prequels. Why is it, that in thus far two films, have we not seen a canon representation of Han Solo's homeworld (Corellia), Chewbacca's homeworld (Kashyyyk), Leia's homeworld (Alderaan), Ackbar's homeworld (Mon Calamar), Jabba's homeworld (Nal Hutta or Nar Shadda, whatever it was...), nor even the SITH's homeworld (or whatever it was... I'm talking about Korriban) etc. Instead we get Tattooine not once but TWICE, and Coruscant in both films. And the prequels were SUPPOSED to detail the OT's backstory i.e. where all the major characters came from.

Why aren't we treated to a cursory glance at any of the above?

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-08-15 08:31am

Stofsk wrote:You touched on something which really disappoints me about the prequels. Why is it, that in thus far two films, have we not seen a canon representation of Han Solo's homeworld (Corellia), Chewbacca's homeworld (Kashyyyk), Leia's homeworld (Alderaan), Ackbar's homeworld (Mon Calamar), Jabba's homeworld (Nal Hutta or Nar Shadda, whatever it was...), nor even the SITH's homeworld (or whatever it was... I'm talking about Korriban) etc. Instead we get Tattooine not once but TWICE, and Coruscant in both films. And the prequels were SUPPOSED to detail the OT's backstory i.e. where all the major characters came from.

Why aren't we treated to a cursory glance at any of the above?

You're right, GL did promise a larger scale story to contrast the small scale of the OT. All I can think of that those planets you mentioned is that few of them have story relevance, or at least enough relevance that they can fit into a movie that has to be kept a certain length and understandable to most people. (Nal Hutta, Korriban and Mon Calamar mostly.)

Though apparently they're going to put Kashyyyk in the next film, and unless Lucas is some sort of twit they'll have Alderaan.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-08-15 08:52am

He should have also put in a Mon Calamar scene, with it being attacked and defended by the Republic, and a then-junior officer by the name of Ackbar participated in it's defence.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-08-15 11:07am

Too young Anakin the wonder kid on multiple levels.
- building C3PO being one of the

that isn't just about his age and the poor acting.

Queen Amidala being 14. That's just stupid and done so she doesn't come across as a perv when she hooks up with Anakin in later movies, and it wouldn't be necessary if they hadn't made Anakin too young in the first place.

Nute Gunray's voice. It just bugs me and it jogs me out of the movie. I got over it by AOTC but then they added another Nemodian with an even more distracting voice.

A couple of the Jar Jar moments that were unecessarilly over-the-top.
- when he does that yell, jump, flip, twist dive into the water before they go to the Gungan city. He was also the butt of the "icky icky goo" and a some fart jokes that I could have done without.

Tatooine was okay as a place but unecessary. I could definately do without the pod race and absolutely hated the cheeziness of the two-headed announcer. I felt like I was watching a bad Saturday morning cartoon. With the way most of the pod racer pilots looked it might as well have been a computer animated version of the "Wacky Races".

My other complaint has to do with the teaser trailer for TPM. I don't think they should have fully revealed Darth Maul in the trailer, and they certainly shouldn't have shown him activating the second blade on his light saber.

I realize he got a lot of fanboys all rabid about seeing the movie but people would have seen it anyway and I think it would have been cooler if he was revealed more slowly. Plus people would have been wondering why his light saber was so long and then when he shows why it would have been more of a cool surprise to some people. I think it was even intended that way but someone just had to shove that in the trailer.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-08-15 01:20pm

Stofsk wrote:
Gandalf wrote:I think it might have been cool to have Anakin come from Alderaan. This way, when he's there for it's destruction in ANH it has a bit more meaning.
You touched on something which really disappoints me about the prequels. Why is it, that in thus far two films, have we not seen a canon representation of Han Solo's homeworld (Corellia), Chewbacca's homeworld (Kashyyyk), Leia's homeworld (Alderaan), Ackbar's homeworld (Mon Calamar), Jabba's homeworld (Nal Hutta or Nar Shadda, whatever it was...), nor even the SITH's homeworld (or whatever it was... I'm talking about Korriban) etc. Instead we get Tattooine not once but TWICE, and Coruscant in both films. And the prequels were SUPPOSED to detail the OT's backstory i.e. where all the major characters came from.

Why aren't we treated to a cursory glance at any of the above?

True so true. Deep down i always knew what was bugging me. Now i know

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-08-15 01:50pm

Stofsk wrote:He should have also put in a Mon Calamar scene, with it being attacked and defended by the Republic, and a then-junior officer by the name of Ackbar participated in it's defence.

Well hopefully in EP III we can see Mon Calamari, Alderaan, ect. to finally get the connection we all want. *shrugs* Or it could be just another prequal.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-08-15 02:31pm

I really don't mind the over exsposure of Courscant in the PT. Being the capital of a crumbling goverment, it makes a hell'ava lot of sense. But I'll agree with Stofsk, in that the insignificant dust ball of Tatooine just plays too big a role.

I really didn't mind that Ankikin was from there, but to keep going back to it again and again. Only one of the five movies made, doesn't have Tatooine in it.

JediMaster415 · Post by **JediMaster415** » 2004-08-15 03:24pm

Notice how the only movie to not show Tatooine is, most often, the fans' favorite Star Wars movie. There might be a connection there.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-08-15 04:32pm

Gandalf wrote:
Stofsk wrote:You touched on something which really disappoints me about the prequels. Why is it, that in thus far two films, have we not seen a canon representation of Han Solo's homeworld (Corellia), Chewbacca's homeworld (Kashyyyk), Leia's homeworld (Alderaan), Ackbar's homeworld (Mon Calamar), Jabba's homeworld (Nal Hutta or Nar Shadda, whatever it was...), nor even the SITH's homeworld (or whatever it was... I'm talking about Korriban) etc. Instead we get Tattooine not once but TWICE, and Coruscant in both films. And the prequels were SUPPOSED to detail the OT's backstory i.e. where all the major characters came from.

Why aren't we treated to a cursory glance at any of the above?
You're right, GL did promise a larger scale story to contrast the small scale of the OT. All I can think of that those planets you mentioned is that few of them have story relevance, or at least enough relevance that they can fit into a movie that has to be kept a certain length and understandable to most people. (Nal Hutta, Korriban and Mon Calamar mostly.)

Though apparently they're going to put Kashyyyk in the next film, and unless Lucas is some sort of twit they'll have Alderaan.

Both Kashyyyk and Alderaan have been confirmed for Episode III (no spoiler since they're mentioned on the OS along with Utapau, Coruscant and Tatooine).
I don't want to see Nal Hutta etc. in the movies. They're fine in the EU where they belongs. They're part of canon, so enjoy them in the EU. I do agree that it was unnecessary to include Tatooine in TPM. Why couldn't Shmi and Anakin have lived on a nearby planet within Hutt-space (not Nal Hutta), so that Cliegg Lars met her there and brought her to Tatooine? I guess that Cliegg never owned a starship, but what about public transportation? Don't they have some sort of interplanetary buses

?

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-08-15 04:37pm

Mange the Swede wrote: Both Kashyyyk and Alderaan have been confirmed for Episode III (no spoiler since they're mentioned on the OS along with Utapau, Coruscant and Tatooine).
I don't want to see Nal Hutta etc. in the movies. They're fine in the EU where they belongs. They're part of canon, so enjoy them in the EU. I do agree that it was unnecessary to include Tatooine in TPM. Why couldn't Shmi and Anakin have lived on a nearby planet within Hutt-space (not Nal Hutta), so that Cliegg Lars met her there and brought her to Tatooine? I guess that Cliegg never owned a starship, but what about public transportation? Don't they have some sort of interplanetary buses ?

You really don't want to see Nal Hutta do you?

But agreeing with everyone else, I didn't like Tatooine in the PT.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-08-15 05:11pm

Techno_Union wrote:
Mange the Swede wrote: Both Kashyyyk and Alderaan have been confirmed for Episode III (no spoiler since they're mentioned on the OS along with Utapau, Coruscant and Tatooine).
I don't want to see Nal Hutta etc. in the movies. They're fine in the EU where they belongs. They're part of canon, so enjoy them in the EU. I do agree that it was unnecessary to include Tatooine in TPM. Why couldn't Shmi and Anakin have lived on a nearby planet within Hutt-space (not Nal Hutta), so that Cliegg Lars met her there and brought her to Tatooine? I guess that Cliegg never owned a starship, but what about public transportation? Don't they have some sort of interplanetary buses ?
You really don't want to see Nal Hutta do you?

Nah. You got that right

.

It's interesting. I looked at the Star Wars Episode I Insider's Guide CD-ROM and read what was written about the earlier drafts. I must say that if George Lucas had stuck to his earlier drafts, the movie would've turned out much better. The earlier drafts were darker (much more of the suffering on Naboo would've shown, Anakin would've been a few years older and Obi-Wan would've been the first one to have met Anakin).
It's a pity.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-08-15 07:23pm

Stofsk wrote:But it's good because it shows Anakin as a fighter pilot the FIRST time we see him. Galvatron's idea is also pretty damn good as well, except I would change Obi-wan's rank of General to something a little lower - make him a subordinate to another leader, which was something I liked in TPM (by the end Obi-wan becomes the leader, but not at the start).

Well, in my version, Obi-Wan's already a military general, but not a Jedi Master. Therein lies his room for growth.

As for the planets: frankly, I don't think we need to see Tatooine or Coruscant until Episode III, if at all.

Do we really need to see Obi-Wan carrying baby Luke to the Lars homestead? Or is it enough that we see him there as a young man in ANH? Honestly, I'd accept some spoken line from Anakin early in the prequels making reference to the "backwater sandball" he came from and then Obi-Wan later on telling Mrs. Skywalker that he'd take Luke to live with Anakin's half-brother. That would suit me fine.

This new trend of over-explaining things in Star Wars bugs me. Lucas started it with the special editions when, for example, he insisted that we had to see Vader's shuttle flying from Cloud City to the Executor so we "would know how he got there" as if there were some great mystery or plot-hole in the original cut of TESB that required this addition. Perhaps it wouldn't have bothered me so much if it hadn't butchered the original tightly edited escape sequence or cut out Vader's ominous and gravelly "bring my shuttle" line in the process.

dworkin · Post by **dworkin** » 2004-08-15 09:26pm

Stofsk wrote:All good, except for the Tattooine connection. I cannot stress enough how sick of that shithole I am...

Or another planet. Not very important but Anikin should come from the galactic equivalent of a log cabin or somesuch.

One of the truly cool things about ANH was how it leaped straight into the action. 10 minutes into the movie and you already know the basic plot, who the bad guy is and what's sort of going on at large. 10 minutes into TPM and I was vaguly aware that I wished they had intermissions so I could get more popcorn.

Mr Lucas should of done things the same way instead of opting for an amazingly tedious expostion typical of serials today.[/quote]

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-08-15 09:53pm

fart jokes, ball jokes, poop jokes, clumseyness jokes.

Drop that and it's an OK flick.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-08-15 10:50pm

myself, I disliked the twoheaded announcer.

I was like, yep, this one's for the kids