Spacebattle

[Illuminatus Primus]

Ender, you're being an idiot.

There is every reference to assume shielded TIEs are rare; namely, that there are only a few examples of shielded TIEs.

Moreover, all most all TIE references refer to the TIE Line Fighter, including every EU battle; no TIE/Ln has ever been observed to be shielded.

Its hardly a case of EU vs. films; the films never indicate anything except that the TIE sentry force sent to intercept the Falcon was shielded; the empirical evidence says nothing else. And vague implications do not override every EU example in existance.

And vague implications are not comparable to physical constraints, like the aftermath of the Battle of Endor and the fate of the Endor moon.

[Alyeska]

Ties have shields

The generic Tie fielded by the Empire does not have shields. We have a couple examples of shields on Ties, but these are not standard designs.

Prove. it.

I'm sorry for the short temper here, but I get really sick of going 12 rounds with BEUPs (Brainless Expanded Universe Parrots) who just deny the films with out proof. Are there maybe 2 kinds of Ties, the shielded the navy version and the unshielded the starfleet version? Maybe. But there is nothing to show shielded Ties are rare.

Weight of evidence. EU has plenty of examples of Ties not having shields or only elite units having shields. Seeing as this contradicts nothing, I see no reason to use this information. On the other hand you have to prove that all Ties have shields, and this is a problem seeing as it disagrees with a LOT of the EU. Whichever explination is simpler and has fewer conflicting points is the more logical one.

[Alyeska]

I think the ISD II would destroy all ships without even having to deploy its fighters or even have to use its HTLs except maybe for the Carrack.

If the ISD doesn't deploy its fighter then it runs a serious risk of damage from those Y-Wings. They have sufficent firepower to down one side of shields.

As it doesn't say what kind of torps they are carrying, we don't know that.

You know, I think its pretty safe to assume they are carrying your general purpose PT which just so happens to be useful in capitalship assaults. Remember, part of the reason PTs do more damage to shields then HTLs or MTLs is because of the type of reaction they are. Wattage at work. PTs are perfectly designed as shield killing weapons. This also explains why ships like the VSD1 with its missile systems are still a threat to ISD2s.

[Imperial Overlord]

Even with proton torpedos and unshielded TIEs my money is still on the ISD2. It has enough fighters to counter the attacking fighters and outguns the enemy capital ships.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

10 Y-Wings would survive long enough to bring down part of the ISD's shields? That, I find hard to believe.

They can effectively fire outside of the range of the ISDs kill zone. Thats part of the reason why ISDs have fighters afterall. To prevent this.

What about the ISD II's tractor beam range? Is it as great as a Y-Wing's PT range? If so, they could simply tractor them right into the kill zones. And from my understanding, the ISD II has 10 tractor beam emplacements, which I think should be sufficient to do the job.

[Alyeska]

10 Y-Wings would survive long enough to bring down part of the ISD's shields? That, I find hard to believe.

They can effectively fire outside of the range of the ISDs kill zone. Thats part of the reason why ISDs have fighters afterall. To prevent this.

What about the ISD II's tractor beam range? Is it as great as a Y-Wing's PT range? If so, they could simply tractor them right into the kill zones. And from my understanding, the ISD II has 10 tractor beam emplacements, which I think should be sufficient to do the job.

Using tractor beams against small manuevering targets is never an easy thing. They are even harder to use with precision then a turbo laser. It gets worse when the Y-Wings fire their torpedoes. For some reason torpedoes tend to mess up tractor beam targeting solutions. They can reset the machine and the operator can account for it, but that takes time. And once the Y-Wings have fired, thats all she wrote.

Besides, from what I've read tractor beams have less range then TLs.

[Praxis]

Ties have shields

The generic Tie fielded by the Empire does not have shields. We have a couple examples of shields on Ties, but these are not standard designs.

Prove. it.

I'm sorry for the short temper here, but I get really sick of going 12 rounds with BEUPs (Brainless Expanded Universe Parrots) who just deny the films with out proof. Are there maybe 2 kinds of Ties, the shielded the navy version and the unshielded the starfleet version? Maybe. But there is nothing to show shielded Ties are rare.

The EU.
The EU is canon unless disproven by evidence from the movies. We have seen ONE TIE fighter with shields, and every other TIE fighter we've seen has died in ONE HIT.
Since every book says that most TIE fighters are unshielded, as do the tech manuals (official)- it goes.

[Praxis]

I think the ISD II would destroy all ships without even having to deploy its fighters or even have to use its HTLs except maybe for the Carrack.

If the ISD doesn't deploy its fighter then it runs a serious risk of damage from those Y-Wings. They have sufficent firepower to down one side of shields.

As it doesn't say what kind of torps they are carrying, we don't know that.

Y-wings carry proton bombs for bombardment, but generally carry 8 proton torpedoes in most cases.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Using tractor beams against small manuevering targets is never an easy thing.They are even harder to use with precision then a turbo laser.

Aren't Y-Wings relatively slow? Slower than X-Wings, at least. In Heir to the Empire the tractor beam operator didn't really have a difficult time locking on to Luke's X-Wing, which is faster and more agile than the Y-Wing. I'd say the tractor beams could tow in the Y-Wings quite easily, assuming they are in range.

It gets worse when the Y-Wings fire their torpedoes. For some reason torpedoes tend to mess up tractor beam targeting solutions. They can reset the machine and the operator can account for it, but that takes time. And once the Y-Wings have fired, thats all she wrote.

Even so, the Y-Wings will run out of PTs and I'm not convinced that will bring down a shield section of the ISD II. So after they run out of PTs, they will have no choice but to engage the shields with their laser cannons/ion cannons, which would definitely put them inside the ISD II's tractor beam range and most likely its kill zones. I'm sure 80 PTs (8 PTs per Y-Wing, 10 Y-Wings) wouldn't be enough to bring down a shield section, right? Mr. Bean's mid-range estimates for an ISD shield section is 28,000 teratons.

Mid-Range Calculations

I'd use the low-range estimates, but I can't find it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the high-end yield for PTs 300 gigatons? So 300 GTs x 80 PTs = 24,000 GTs worth of damage. Not enough to down a shield section which is 28,000,000 GTs. They'd have to get off at least 1,167 volleys before bringing one down. Obviously, Y-Wings don't carry nearly that amount of torps. But then the high-end for a proton torpedo could be completely wrong, I don't know.

Besides, from what I've read tractor beams have less range then TLs.

Oh, well then I guess then it's a dead issue. Bah. But the other points still stand! The Y-Wings would run out of PTs, then would have to use their blasters, and then they would be destroyed.

[Praxis]

It gets worse when the Y-Wings fire their torpedoes. For some reason torpedoes tend to mess up tractor beam targeting solutions. They can reset the machine and the operator can account for it, but that takes time. And once the Y-Wings have fired, thats all she wrote.

That was a special trick Luke used- have a small fighter do a snap turn in the tractor beam and fire torpedoes, and the tractor accidentally locks on the torpedoes. However, it also blows out the snubfighters comm and hyperdrive unit, and its risky, so I wouldn't exactly say it's an optimal solution.

[Admiral Drason]

Cannon shows that sheilds do shit. It doesnt matter if the defenders fighters have sheilds they will die after only two or three shots from the ties. The books are full of crap when it comes to the power of sheilds on fighters. Pt arent supposed to take down sheilds anyway their supposed to be used after the sheilds are down and unarmord sections are exposed.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm sorry for the short temper here, but I get really sick of going 12 rounds with BEUPs (Brainless Expanded Universe Parrots) who just deny the films with out proof. Are there maybe 2 kinds of Ties, the shielded the navy version and the unshielded the starfleet version? Maybe. But there is nothing to show shielded Ties are rare.

Uhm, why the fuck are you assuming thats a strictly-EU thing? The lack fo shields has been established in the OT:ICS for years now. And to my memory, that has not been relegated back to EU status recently.

[Alyeska]

Proton Torpedoes as they are described make EXCELENT anti shield weapons. That proton torpedoes do major shield damage yet are relatively useless against a capitalship once its shields are out point this fact out.

[Connor MacLeod]

10 Y-Wings would survive long enough to bring down part of the ISD's shields? That, I find hard to believe.

They can effectively fire outside of the range of the ISDs kill zone. Thats part of the reason why ISDs have fighters afterall. To prevent this.

Depends on the targeting computers they use. We know from both canon and the EU (Zahn novels, WOTC, etc.) that ISDs do have point defense lasers, and that the range against them (even relatively small ones) is easily thousands of kilometers, minimum. Even without the fighters, they still stand a decent chance of fending off fighters unless they close to point blank range.

[Gil Hamilton]

give them x-wings instead of headhunters, armed with torpedos...

and nothing changes

What do you mean? In the Bacta War, they beat a Super Stardestroyer with X-Wings armed with proton torpedoes. If they can beat that, they can take a ISD II.

[Gil Hamilton]

I'd think the fighters would have to get as close to the stardestroyers as possible and keep maneuvering tight and fast. The closer they are, the bigger the arc the gun turrets have to traverse to hit them. Armed with the big sort of proton torpedoes and luck, they might be able to break a shield arc and get in. Plus, if the thing is under way, get behind it and aim for the engines. It's shields have to be down to let out exhaust from it's drive systems and a missile slipped in quick enough might survive the exhaust long enough to detonate close to something important.

[Connor MacLeod]

Proton Torpedoes as they are described make EXCELENT anti shield weapons. That proton torpedoes do major shield damage yet are relatively useless against a capitalship once its shields are out point this fact out.

As Ender pointed out, it depends on the torpedo (and to my knowledge there is no bizarre "anti shield" properties on torpedoes that make them inherently more dangersou to shields than to armor. The only difference might be in dissipation rate, but that's simply a matter of how fast the energy is delivered to the shields - ie wattage.) In fact the only torpedoes I am aware of that have specialized "anti shield" properties are supposedly the Torpedo spheres, and they're designed to take out planetary shields.

I would further point out that in the novel "Shadows of the Empire", that the proton torpedoes Rogue Squadron carried were explicitly stated to be little to no threat to an ISD (because they were "fighter grade") - which points out that the KIND of torpedo used does in fact make a difference in their effectiveness in attacking shields.

Heavy anti-cap ship torpedoes would be extremely heavy (comparable in mass to the ship itself, if not greater) and would likely be extremely slow and/or have limited guidance, and carrying very many of them would affect the fighter's accecleration and manuvering capabilities.

[Connor MacLeod]

give them x-wings instead of headhunters, armed with torpedos...

and nothing changes

What do you mean? In the Bacta War, they beat a Super Stardestroyer with X-Wings armed with proton torpedoes. If they can beat that, they can take a ISD II.

With X-wings and scores of freighters equipped with capital-grade concussion missiles and proton torpedoes of unknown type and yield (acquired from Talon Karrde by Booster Terrik), an Alderaanian War Cruiser, AND an ISD supporrting them (well two.. though not at the same time... plus several squadrons later in the battle of Rebel fighters.)

Edit: For clarification, the two Star Destroyers were the Freedom (Sair Yonka) and the Errant Venture (Formelry the Virulence, but was captured by Booster Terrik). The Freedom engaged first, was crippled severely enough to take it out of the battle by the Lusankya. The Errant Venture showed up late in the battle with Pash Cracken and his A-wings (at least 2-3 squadrons IIRC.)

The "War Cruiser" was more or less similar to a Carrack-class cruiser in capabilities, and they concentrated largely on the rear/engine section of the ship.


And for the record, they only "beat" it by forcing a surrender.. they stripped its weapons and defenses largely, but it wasn't mortally damaged (IIRC it only lost 30% of its combat and/or overall capability.)

[Illuminatus Primus]

give them x-wings instead of headhunters, armed with torpedos...

and nothing changes

What do you mean? In the Bacta War, they beat a Super Stardestroyer with X-Wings armed with proton torpedoes. If they can beat that, they can take a ISD II.

Forgetting about two Imperial-class Star Destroyers, a group of A-Wings, a squadron of Uglies, an Alderaanian War Cruiser and a horde of freighters loaded with tubes and space station-grade proton torpedo launchers?

[Imperial Overlord]

And all of this is assuming the TIE pilots are hanging out playing pocker while this is going on.

[Imperial Overlord]

My bad. That should be sabaac, not poker.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Are you talking about the ISD II scenario in general, my remark about the ISD II not having to deploy its fighters, or the Lusankya scenario?

[Imperial Overlord]

I'm talking about the hypothetical battle that this thread is allegidly about. Those 10 Y-Wings and their Z-95 compadres are not going to be able to set up their attack runs without TIEs making their lives at least a little difficult.

The ISD2 may not need its fighters, but they're are so many (admittedly inferior) ships attacking it that it would be prudent to do so.

I try not to read Stackpole. It was painful enough when he was writing for Battletech, although Star Wars universe is far more compatable with the noble heroic fantasy writing style.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

I agree I'd also launch TIE Fighters. But I'm just trying to point out that the battle is so lopsided the ISD II probably could pull off the battle without having to use its fighters at all and barely use its HTLs.

[Imperial Overlord]

I agree. I like Z-95s (the dog fight in Han Solo at Star's End being the over riding factor), but an attack run with just them and 10 Y-Wings against an ISD2? Wouldn't want to do it, but it could hurt if they attack an area already under fire from multiple capital ships.