HTL Blast DOES Nail ISD

Alan Bolte · Post by **Alan Bolte** » 2004-10-03 06:55pm

Ha ha. Wasn't watching the fighter combat. Silly me.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-10-03 10:47pm

That was a nice chunk of film.

The first red bolt, comes in from an odd angle for that cruiser. Perhaps from a leading starboard cannon, but the cruiser doesn't look like a 'Liberty' type.

The second red bolt comes from the nose of the cruiser, and misses. Or is it that the first bolt (perhaps from a different ship) and the second bolt are aimed at a different SD?

Any way, that was an awesome clip.

JointStrikeFighter · Post by **JointStrikeFighter** » 2004-10-04 02:53am

Was this ISD unsheilded when the HTL hit it? If it was this means that HTL's must be more powerful than believed to sheilds weaker?

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2004-10-05 05:51pm

JointStrikeFighter wrote:Was this ISD unsheilded when the HTL hit it? If it was this means that HTL's must be more powerful than believed to sheilds weaker?

Possible the shields were already depleeted from an earlier engagement.
With that ISD down the Executor was nearly without an escort. She was instead surrounded by several Mon Calamari cruisers.

And one strange thing is I didn't know Mon Calamari cruisers pre-Endor had any HTL weaponry? But none of the Mon Cal ship designs that came after Endor had any HTL weaponry, strange.
They only have 48 turbolaser batteries. Strange again.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-10-05 07:36pm

The 48 turbolaser figure should be taken with a very large helping of salt. The published figures for Imperators list it as having 60 guns, remember, when it in fact has at least 64 HTL barrels alone (emplacements of four barrels per "gun" in massive turrets of two "guns", four turrets on either side).

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-05 08:13pm

McC wrote:The 48 turbolaser figure should be taken with a very large helping of salt. The published figures for Imperators list it as having 60 guns, remember, when it in fact has at least 64 HTL barrels alone (emplacements of four barrels per "gun" in massive turrets of two "guns", four turrets on either side).

The original blueprints called for 200 turbolasers.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-10-05 08:38pm

Yeah, but the sizes are way too small. The original blueprints had the ship at 686.5 meters long too. See Saxton's Star Destroyer: Artist Intentions article, specifically the four images from Geoffrey Mandel.

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2004-10-05 09:29pm

McC wrote:Destruction of a Star Destroyer. First two shots miss, subsequent two hit home. Pretty hard to argue that... (QuickTime, 1.88 MB)

Most likely a SFX(?) effect error, if you look closely, the explosion from the star destroyer just pops out of nowhere. That's a damn quick explosion it grew the first second when the bolt's trajectory looks like it went to the tower and then cascading to the fuel tanks for the one bolt.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2004-10-05 10:44pm

Soontir C'boath wrote:
McC wrote:Destruction of a Star Destroyer. First two shots miss, subsequent two hit home. Pretty hard to argue that... (QuickTime, 1.88 MB)
Most likely a SFX(?) effect error, if you look closely, the explosion from the star destroyer just pops out of nowhere. That's a damn quick explosion it grew the first second when the bolt's trajectory looks like it went to the tower and then cascading to the fuel tanks for the one bolt.

It could be that the side of the ISD we don't see, which was also the side the HTL bolt hit, was already damaged allowing the bolt to easily penetrate the hypermatter tanks and whatever hull was left protecting them.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-10-05 10:47pm

Check this out. This is the first time I've seen the notches labeled as shield projectors. I know this is an early blueprint that was changed in the final model, but do the notches still retain that function, or do we know?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-10-05 11:00pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Check this out. This is the first time I've seen the notches labeled as shield projectors. I know this is an early blueprint that was changed in the final model, but do the notches still retain that function, or do we know?

AOTC ICS makes mention of that tidbit, saying that notches aid in shield operation (on both the TF coreship and the acclamator)

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-10-05 11:12pm

Ender wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:Check this out. This is the first time I've seen the notches labeled as shield projectors. I know this is an early blueprint that was changed in the final model, but do the notches still retain that function, or do we know?
AOTC ICS makes mention of that tidbit, saying that notches aid in shield operation (on both the TF coreship and the acclamator)

Well since I thought that the 'notches' were there to increase firing arcs for those trench guns in that location, I guess it isn't too much of a leap for them to increase the arc of the shield projector.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2004-10-06 12:34pm

JointStrikeFighter wrote:Was this ISD unsheilded when the HTL hit it? If it was this means that HTL's must be more powerful than believed to sheilds weaker?

We don't know enough about the scene. If the ISD's shields were working perfectly (unlikely), then that would be one powerful HTL. But for all we know the shields were completely down and reactor fuel was coming out of a gaping hole in the side we don't see.

Sher KhalSaad · Post by **Sher KhalSaad** » 2004-10-10 05:23pm

There was something I noticed about both the screen captures and the movie clip : when the ISD is first struck, the entire hull seems to immediatedly take on a dull red glow. Operating from the notion that the shields were down at the time of impact, I thought at first that this might be a result of heat conducted across the hull of the ship from the twin impacts, however this glow appears near-instantaneously , and evenly, across the ships entire outer surface from the moment of the first hit, which normal heat conduction through superdense dura-armor should not do.

Someone suggested to me that it might be an effect of the reactor exploding and releasing vast amounts of radiation into/through the ship, however the glow occurs from the exact moment of the first TL strike, when it is fairly safe to guess that the reactor had not yet breached. Someone else suggested that it might be reflected light from the explosion, although here again the glow is even and covers the entire surface of the ship without casting any shadows, even those facing away from the initial explosion of impact, which reflected light should not do. So I personally do not believe these two explanations really fit with what we see happen.

My first thought was that this could be evidence of thermal-superconductivity in Dura-Armor. I have read in places on Mike's main site about suspected thermal-superconductive properties of dura-armor, but hadn't seen any definite evidence of it... (IIRC, might have missed it) I was curious as to what you folks thought about the phenomenon.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2004-10-10 06:24pm

Could be hull-hugging shields spreading out the energy.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-10-10 06:30pm

Hull-hugging?

If you watch the ROTJ battle, you can see explosions happening well away from the surfaces of the ISDs...

Sher KhalSaad · Post by **Sher KhalSaad** » 2004-10-10 08:10pm

Could be hull-hugging shields spreading out the energy.

I thought about that, and I suppose yes it could be some kind of shield effect ...I was operating under the assumption that the shields were down or at least nearly so at the time of the initial impact , however. (reason being, I wasnt sure how to justify a mere two TL strikes penetrating the shields at all if they were even moderately well-off)

The glow persisted even as the ship was disintigrating , which, if it were a shield effect, would mean that the shields remained in place the entire time - and I would have expected a total shield failure (and the disappearance of the effect, were it shield-related) at some point during the process of the ship converting into a giant fireball. Agree/Disagree?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-10-10 09:15pm

McC wrote:Hull-hugging? If you watch the ROTJ battle, you can see explosions happening well away from the surfaces of the ISDs...

And you can see a distinct shield flash from an X-wing shooting an ISD's bridge tower in a clip that you yourself made. This shield flash occurred at the hull, not in a bubble away from it.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-10-10 09:17pm

Yeah, I thought about that too...and also the scene where the frigate and Executor are shooting. What, then, are the "flak bursts"? I thought the common conclusion was that they were shield interactions.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-10-10 10:53pm

Shields are volumetric; real world force fields do not simply terminate at sharply defined surfaces, and neither do SW shielding. They permeate the armor and gradually weaken as you extend from the hull. Depending on the mechanics of the penetration, the intensity of the hit, and the strength of the shields, the interactions can vary in both nature and distance from the hull.

In the case of the X-Wing shot to the Communications Ship conning tower, the explosion appears to be framed by a seared area of black armor just around the small fireball. The Communications Ship's shields are fluctuating.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2004-10-10 11:09pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Shields are volumetric; real world force fields do not simply terminate at sharply defined surfaces, and neither do SW shielding. They permeate the armor and gradually weaken as you extend from the hull. Depending on the mechanics of the penetration, the intensity of the hit, and the strength of the shields, the interactions can vary in both nature and distance from the hull.

In the case of the X-Wing shot to the Communications Ship conning tower, the explosion appears to be framed by a seared area of black armor just around the small fireball. The Communications Ship's shields are fluctuating.

Using that model, it makes sense that the shield interaction would occur very near the hull if the shields had been mostly battered down.

Sher KhalSaad · Post by **Sher KhalSaad** » 2004-10-11 12:32am

Ok, so, just to make sure I'm intrpreting correctly: the consensus seems to be that the red glow is not a hull interaction effect, rather a shield interaction effect. Would this be correct?

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2004-10-11 02:06am

Sher KhalSaad wrote:Ok, so, just to make sure I'm intrpreting correctly: the consensus seems to be that the red glow is not a hull interaction effect, rather a shield interaction effect. Would this be correct?

We don't know that the hull can produce that effect, but we do know that a shield can. We also know, as IP pointed out, that shields fill a volume of space, rather than terminating at a specific distance, so we would expect shield interactions to be very close to the hull if the shield has been battered down. The superconductive hull theory and the shield theory both fit the facts equally well, but the shield theory does not require us to assume that durasteel is superconductive, so it wins.

I don't know if that's the consensus, but it makes the most sense.

Sher KhalSaad · Post by **Sher KhalSaad** » 2004-10-11 03:03am

Occam's Razor, she can be a cruel mistress.

All righty, sounds like a winner to me ! *re-lurks*

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-10-11 03:16am

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote: We don't know that the hull can produce that effect, but we do know that a shield can.

I take it you've never witnessed AT-ATs hit by laserfire in TESB? Are they shielded?