Jedi Pogrom *spoilers*

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Vain
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Post by Vain »

Ender wrote:TL's are not WMD. A weapon of mass destruction is a weapon that has far ranging uncontrolable after effects. A chemical cloud cannot be maintained, nor can a virus or widespread fallout. A TL has none of those properties. And yes, they were in a pretty good habit of doing it. Check Mike's TL page for some examples. Their ships were designed for it.
This I disagree with. You can't pump that much energy into a planet and not have uncontrollable after effects, whether that's particulate matter in the atmosphere or what have you. A serious bombardment by turbolasers is going to affect far more than the immediate area the bolts fall in.
Again, your sense of scale is off. To the empire, nuking a single city is about as big as a mortar shell hitting a house in Iraq is to us.
There is a difference between stray fire landing on a civilian target during a time of war, and intentionally firing on civilians during peacetime. I think it's also inaccurate to compare every casualty to the population of the galaxy as a whole. Yes, the empire has essentially unlimited resources to throw at the problem. I mentioned that in the OP. However, what you're suggesting is way out of proportion to what you're trying to accomplish. That brings us back to my roach analogy. Yes, incinerating the roach with a flamer thrower will kill him. Yes, I can buy a new table, and the cost of a table is small, relative to my income. Even so, why destroy my table when I can kill the roach any number of ways without doing so? Yes, the capital ships of the empire are impressive. Yes, turbolasers are astoundingly powerful. The fact remains that some tasks are not well suited toward that kind of firepower. If the response to any sort of internal threat is 'kill everyone with turbolasers' why have any sort of significant ground army? The Empire has enough firepower to crack any planetary shield, if they really care about their target. The answer is that it's not always feasible, cost effective, or worthwhile to blow everything up. Sometimes angry men with guns are just a better answer. Whether that's to police dissidents, enforce the law, kill enemies of the state, or even assassinate the last of the jedi.
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Post by Ender »

Vain wrote:
Ender wrote:TL's are not WMD. A weapon of mass destruction is a weapon that has far ranging uncontrolable after effects. A chemical cloud cannot be maintained, nor can a virus or widespread fallout. A TL has none of those properties. And yes, they were in a pretty good habit of doing it. Check Mike's TL page for some examples. Their ships were designed for it.
This I disagree with. You can't pump that much energy into a planet and not have uncontrollable after effects, whether that's particulate matter in the atmosphere or what have you.
As long as it is not radioactive particulate matter, so what? If that's your criteria then a coal burning powerplant is a WMD.
A serious bombardment by turbolasers is going to affect far more than the immediate area the bolts fall in.
All the information I've seen says different. By all means, please provide proof to show I'm wrong.
There is a difference between stray fire landing on a civilian target during a time of war, and intentionally firing on civilians during peacetime.
Morally, absolutly. But they are still dead either way. It's a numbers game. And for the scale, the numbers make it the same.
I think it's also inaccurate to compare every casualty to the population of the galaxy as a whole.
Why? That's how things are always judged. In revolutionary times, 5 people dying was a massacre. Now its just how many die after the Pistons win the championship.
Yes, the empire has essentially unlimited resources to throw at the problem. I mentioned that in the OP. However, what you're suggesting is way out of proportion to what you're trying to accomplish.
Which is pretty much the Empire's MO. The Death Star blew up to basically get at one person, Bail Organa. They could have blown up a moon in an uninhabited system or at the edge of the Coruscant system as a demonstration and had Imperial intellegence assassinate him instead.
That brings us back to my roach analogy. Yes, incinerating the roach with a flamer thrower will kill him. Yes, I can buy a new table, and the cost of a table is small, relative to my income. Even so, why destroy my table when I can kill the roach any number of ways without doing so?
I agree. But it is not the Empire's MO.
Yes, the capital ships of the empire are impressive. Yes, turbolasers are astoundingly powerful. The fact remains that some tasks are not well suited toward that kind of firepower. If the response to any sort of internal threat is 'kill everyone with turbolasers' why have any sort of significant ground army?
To take and hold territory. THere is a difference in slaughter and conquest.
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Post by Kerneth »

Keep in mind also that the Jedi, after the first half-dozen times or so the Imperial Navy bombards a city to kill the Jedi hiding there, are likely to STOP HIDING AMONG CIVILIANS.

Jedi are *not* terrorists who consider civilian casualties a bonus when hiding somewhere. Jedi are, ideally, extremely moral, self-sacrificing people--when they see that hiding amongst a civilian population is going to get that civilian population killed, many if not most of the Jedi are going to start looking for hiding places that are less-congested.

Figure also that while Jedi are able to sense murderous intent to a degree, they aren't as sensitive to mechanical traps from what I can tell. Vader certainly expected Luke to fall for the carbonite trap in ESB, for example, and the Jedi on Geonosis had no idea the droid army was there until it attacked. True, Obi-wan and Qui-Gon in TPM did seem to have some inkling something was going to happen when they were lured into the room on the starship that subsequently was flooded by poison gas; I don't recall if it was a suspicion from the Force or "That protocol droid is sure acting strange".

Still, since it seems most Jedi are susceptible to mechanical traps, there are a number of good ways to kill them off en masse. For example: convince someone the Jedi trust to arrange a meeting in a specific location that's been booby-trapped with explosives ahead of time, and don't tell the person that the meeting is meant to be a trap. Or follow the non-Jedi to the meeting and let a group of droidekas loose in a "Separatist assassination attempt".
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Post by Vain »

Ender wrote:As long as it is not radioactive particulate matter, so what? If that's your criteria then a coal burning powerplant is a WMD.
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/green/co ... 02,00.html
Morally, absolutly. But they are still dead either way. It's a numbers game. And for the scale, the numbers make it the same.
Public relations isn't necessarily about numbers. It's about spin. As evidenced by the very fact that the Rebellion exists, at least some people are aware of the Empire's transgressions. The more that you do that you have to spin and cover up, the greater your chances of a mistake being made or something like this leaking out. Why risk damaging yourself unnecessarily when a cheaper and less risky method is available?
Why? That's how things are always judged. In revolutionary times, 5 people dying was a massacre. Now its just how many die after the Pistons win the championship.
Things like this aren't judged relative to the global population. They're judged relative to the situation. 5 people is just how many die after the Pistons win the championship because 5 people is how many die. If I showed up in suburban ohio and executed a household of 5 people with a pistol, no sensational mutilations or anything, just five murders in one place that isn't the inner city, it would make the national news, even though five people is a drop in the bucket relative to the global, or even national population.
Which is pretty much the Empire's MO. The Death Star blew up to basically get at one person, Bail Organa. They could have blown up a moon in an uninhabited system or at the edge of the Coruscant system as a demonstration and had Imperial intellegence assassinate him instead.
The destruction of Alderaan was a demonstration, nothing more and nothing less. Destroying Alderaan proved 1. That the Empire had the power not just to wipe out a planet (ala BDZ) but to annihilate it. 2. And that the Empire was willing to use it on a populated target. Tarkin stated that the Death Star would keep the local systems in line through fear, rather than conquest. When you rule through fear, you walk a fine line. You have to ensure that the populace has more to fear from opposing you than it has to gain. When Tarkin blows up Alderaan, yes he's saying that we have this and we're willing to use it, but he's also saying that if you toe the line, we won't blow you up. When you start randomly murdering the populace you're trying to subjugate your rule through fear backfires. They reach a point where they're more afraid of what will happen to them if you remain in power than they are of the risks of revolution. And then... Well, 'Vox Populi, Vox Dei,' even to a Sith Lord.
I agree. But it is not the Empire's MO.
I don't think the Empire's MO is to massively overreact and randomly BDZ their own planets, or else there wouldn't be an Empire. I think Palpatine understands subtlety as well as anyone in his Galactic Empire.
To take and hold territory. THere is a difference in slaughter and conquest.
But by your reasoning there's no need. There's always more land, right? And always more people? So we may as well go with scorched earth whenever anyone opposes us. Then all of our enemies will be dead, and we'll still have millions of planets and trillions of citizens without ever having to land an infantry-man. Unfortunately things don't work that way.

It seems that we've reached an impasse. We're arguing opinion. I don't think the Galactic Empire would so cavalierly use turbolasers on its own citizenry and would thus pursue slightly less destructive solutions. You think the realities of the situation dictate otherwise. So assume we have found a Jedi on Coruscant. And assume Lord Vader is on the rim somewhere doing something important. I, as Palpatine, am not going to fight him myself, correct? So, why not shotguns?
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Post by CDiehl »

Yes, there is a simple and cheap way to do things. The Empire can quietly call on an executive of a private company to order a ship to attack a target where a Jedi is suspected of hiding. They can feed him some BS about how all their ships are busy and they will reward his special help, so he writes up the order and the bombardment takes place. When the destruction is investigated, it'll reveal weapons were used that are found on civilian ships, so pirates or rebels could be the culprits. Eventually, the investigation will reveal that an executive with anti-Imperial leanings misappropriated his company's equipment to commit an act of terrorism. The excecutive is killed, imprisoned, sent for re-education, or whatever they do in that situation Further investigation also reveals that the location was harboring a traitor, so the message to stay clear of enemies of the Empire is sent.

Why blast the place from orbit, instead of sending troops down to pick him up? Well, a Jedi might not be able to sense a ship in orbit come to blow up his hometown, but he could sense a squad of soldiers come to grab him, and run. Also, most Jedi are probably not hiding out in the Core Worlds, but out on the Rim, where the Empire can pretty much do as it pleases, and the vast majority of citizens don't know or care what happens out there. Besides, the Empire can easily spin any incidents that get into the news as a result of internal conflicts among rebel groups, which is not likely to inspire public support for the rebellion.
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Post by Enforcer Talen »

and, of course, this is the clone wars. millions dead in a single bdz to kill one of those nasty jedi is to be expected.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Enforcer Talen wrote:and, of course, this is the clone wars. millions dead in a single bdz to kill one of those nasty jedi is to be expected.
I don't think the Empire would slag an entire planet just to kill a single planet-side Jedi.
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Post by Robert Treder »

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:and, of course, this is the clone wars. millions dead in a single bdz to kill one of those nasty jedi is to be expected.
I don't think the Empire would slag an entire planet just to kill a single planet-side Jedi.
Especially since AOTC showed that overwhelming firepower on the ground can overcome your typical Jedi Knight or Padawan.

For those like Mace Windu or Yoda, who can singlehandedly level large groups of ground forces if left unchecked (ref. "Clone Wars" animated shorts), the presence of a powerful Imperial Force-user (read: Anakin Skywalker, possibly Darth Tyrannus) can distract them to the point that they are defeatable (see Battle of Geonosis, especially the death of Jedi Master Coleman Trebor, or see AOTC novelization re: use of Force in battle).
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Post by Praxis »

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:and, of course, this is the clone wars. millions dead in a single bdz to kill one of those nasty jedi is to be expected.
I don't think the Empire would slag an entire planet just to kill a single planet-side Jedi.
No, but a city... or a planet to kill a whole lot of Jedi.
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Post by Vympel »

First of all, there are only 10,000 Jedi in all of the galaxy. Second, a significant portion of them were killed on Geonosis, not just in the Arena, but also in the ensuing battle (the gunship that Mace and Yoda watched destroyed from their own carried three Jedi, IIRC). Third, in the course of the three year war, many more Jedi undoubtedly lost their lives, either to regular combat in the manner of Geonosis, or at the hands of General Grievous- we saw evidence of this in Episode 20 of Clone Wars (though he doesnt' kill nearly as many Jedi in that episode as is implied). Fourth, we have the Clonetroopers turning on their Jedi generals in ROTS once the order is given by Palpatine, and fifth, we have Anakin hunting them down. It simply wouldn't be that hard.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Praxis wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:and, of course, this is the clone wars. millions dead in a single bdz to kill one of those nasty jedi is to be expected.
I don't think the Empire would slag an entire planet just to kill a single planet-side Jedi.
No, but a city... or a planet to kill a whole lot of Jedi.
And that's not a Base Delta Zero, which is what I got a hair up my ass about in the first place.
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