Some truths revealed by GL in AOTC

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-11-16 03:38am

http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/image. ... lones0.jpg
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Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-11-16 03:39am

Stravo the point being; if he wanted to make all the Stormtroopers clones, then why not 'dub' them with the same voice originally? I mean the technology was most certainly there for that! This is revisionist history (or is it future?) plain and simple and it sucks....

But for me Star Wars is dead, watching the commentary of LOTR with director/writters and actors, you here more about story than effects. It showed a level of love and commitment to the story of Tolkiens then; hey look at what cool things we can do here.

Listening to the commentary of AOTC was more about effects and blue screens and it was just so disappointing. I mean the effects guys were talking just as much as Lucas himself, and that really said a lot in my mind. Not to mention that the effects just looked wrong for some reason. Not all the time, but enough of it to really shit me. I work as a projectionist, I watch and see films on the big screen 20 - 32 hours a week, and the whole digital camera thing just fucked up Star Wars. LOTR Fellowship is out again, and watching it on the big screen again, just crystalised for me why LOTR was such a better production than AOTC.

Lucas has lost a few people over his insistance to 'push technology to the limit' rather than 'push the story to the limit'. The best effect for me in AOTC was the duel between Anakin and Dooku, where Lucas used a trick that he used all the way back in TESB; dark, and the light of the lightsabres on the combatants. You know what I am talking about, the blue and red light cast over the actors faces as they dueled. That was cool. The rest didn't hold me at all.

I am not saying that AOTC was the worst movie ever, far from it. I enjoyed it, but it has still to catch onto 'essence' of Star Wars

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-11-16 03:41am

[quote="Crown"]Stravo the point being; if he wanted to make all the Stormtroopers clones, then why not 'dub' them with the same voice originally?[quote]

See my above post. 1981- Lucasfilm publication saying it STRAIGHT OUT. It's pure EU poor research.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-11-16 03:45am

Bugger.

Well either way, the rest of the post (story without soul) stands.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-11-16 03:46am

Stravo the point being; if he wanted to make all the Stormtroopers clones, then why not 'dub' them with the same voice originally? I mean the technology was most certainly there for that! This is revisionist history (or is it future?) plain and simple and it sucks....

Crown I simply don't have an answer to that one, but as far back as ESB when Lucas created Boba he knew that the Stormies were clones because he mentions it in an article about Boba's back story. Why the dubbing issue? Heck, maybe the helmet mikes distort the voices of the clones slightly, who knows?

I agree 100% with you. When I was listening to the commentary and watching the featurettes about previsualization I saw what lucas was doing and I was disturbed. He cut and paste actor's faces on other bodies, in some instances digitally inserted entire characters that were no in the scene before. The way he describes it is that the digital technology allows him to manipulate his world completely and he can mold his film to be precisly what he wants it to be.

Personally, I'm GLAD he didn't have access to this tech when filming the OT. I have a sneaking suspicion that if he did there would be ALOT less warsies around. Its like he sucked the magic right out of the franchise with these last two films and I DREAD to see what is to come with Ep III and what is supposed to be the most dramatic moment of the series - the Fall of Anakin Skywalker.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-11-16 03:48am

Crown wrote:Bugger.

Well either way, the rest of the post (story without soul) stands.

I somewhat agree with you Crown. While I liked AotC, the story could have been better, and the love story(while I still liked it) could have been better as well.

I really think the models of the ships looked better than the CG ones, they should bring those back.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-11-16 03:49am

Vympel wrote:
Crown wrote:Stravo the point being; if he wanted to make all the Stormtroopers clones, then why not 'dub' them with the same voice originally?
See my above post. 1981- Lucasfilm publication saying it STRAIGHT OUT. It's pure EU poor research.

Or the Lucasfilm publication itself is poor research. After all, the stormies did not have the same dubbed voices, so one would obviously question the "cloned troopers" idea on that basis. I still don't think GL meant this in 1977.

There is nothing about it in the scripts or the novel, the fact that they don't take their helmets off doesn't prove anything (they can't take them off without losing communications), and cloning is a ridiculously expensive and time-consuming way to build an army. You can basic-train a recruit in a few months, but it takes TEN YEARS to prepare a single clonetrooper.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-11-16 03:52am

Darth Wong wrote:
Vympel wrote:
Crown wrote:Stravo the point being; if he wanted to make all the Stormtroopers clones, then why not 'dub' them with the same voice originally?
See my above post. 1981- Lucasfilm publication saying it STRAIGHT OUT. It's pure EU poor research.
Or the Lucasfilm publication itself is poor research. After all, the stormies did not have the same dubbed voices, so one would obviously question the "cloned troopers" idea on that basis. I still don't think GL meant this in 1977.

There is nothing about it in the scripts or the novel, the fact that they don't take their helmets off doesn't prove anything (they can't take them off without losing communications), and cloning is a ridiculously expensive and time-consuming way to build an army. You can basic-train a recruit in a few months, but it takes TEN YEARS to prepare a single clonetrooper.

Yeah but you get a completely loyal soldier that you can order to do anything and he won't betray you, be bribed, or rebel. Every emperor needs a loyal royal guard to help him secure power, even bannana republic dictators understand that. So Palpy creates an army that is immune to bribes and seduction and will back him up no matter what. Also, perhaps the clones make it easier for him to manipulate their performance ala Zahn's theory.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-11-16 03:53am

Darth Wong wrote:
Vympel wrote:
Crown wrote:Stravo the point being; if he wanted to make all the Stormtroopers clones, then why not 'dub' them with the same voice originally?
See my above post. 1981- Lucasfilm publication saying it STRAIGHT OUT. It's pure EU poor research.
Or the Lucasfilm publication itself is poor research. After all, the stormies did not have the same dubbed voices, so one would obviously question the "cloned troopers" idea on that basis. I still don't think GL meant this in 1977.

There is nothing about it in the scripts or the novel, the fact that they don't take their helmets off doesn't prove anything (they can't take them off without losing communications), and cloning is a ridiculously expensive and time-consuming way to build an army. You can basic-train a recruit in a few months, but it takes TEN YEARS to prepare a single clonetrooper.

Yes it takes longer to get them, but they can be made to be more loyal and accept comands (read suicidal) that regular people would not take. Also the clones are desposable, " Oh a bunch were killed in action? Well I'll place an order next week." A truely fire and forget weapon, the stormtrooper.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-11-16 03:54am

Just so you all know, we recieved a letter from the Cinematographer of the LOTR trilogy thanking us (our site, our projection staff...me) for taking such good care of an old version of Fellowship. He was using it in a class/lecture talking about the the shots when he commented that the print must be and industry one because it was in such good quality (had no damage on it). He was later told by his aid that this print was actually run and my site (Dandenong) for close to two months!

So in appreciation we have a letter of thanks from him, Village Roadshow and dispatch as well! We a very happy!

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-16 03:56am

Film is foremost about storytelling. It is about conflict and characters and plot. Effects are merely a tool. Without a strong conflict and interesting and compelling characters a film will fail despite strong effects.

In the case of Attack of the Clones, Yoda is a clear example of this. Yoda from ESB is still a compelling and interesting character despite him being a piece of rubber with a guy's hand up his ass. In Attack of the Clones, when he is CG, his character is expanded and we can see why he is such a compelling character. However, the basis for this already existed before wizbang CG. Ultimately, the characters and the conflict must drive the plot of the film, not the effects.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-11-16 04:09am

Darth Wong wrote: Or the Lucasfilm publication itself is poor research. After all, the stormies did not have the same dubbed voices, so one would obviously question the "cloned troopers" idea on that basis. I still don't think GL meant this in 1977.

There is nothing about it in the scripts or the novel, the fact that they don't take their helmets off doesn't prove anything (they can't take them off without losing communications), and cloning is a ridiculously expensive and time-consuming way to build an army. You can basic-train a recruit in a few months, but it takes TEN YEARS to prepare a single clonetrooper.

Possibly. But considering that the article is the same as what we saw in Attack of the Clones, and what Lucas has said on the topic ... it's possible that this stuff is from George Lucas' own brain *shrug*

What I wanna know is, if they're going to dub over the Stormtroopers voices in the OT (does he say that in the AOTC dvd?), they're also going to have to make them all the same height as well.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-16 04:11am

Should be possible with computers now a days.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-11-16 04:11am

We also need to know what a 'unit' is. 1,000,000 men in 10 years is ludicruously slow.

If we take 'unit' to mean- squad, platoon, company, battalion/regiment, division ... then it makes more sense.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-11-16 04:14am

neoolong wrote:Should be possible with computers now a days.

Damn easy I bet. I mean they could make the Hobbits digitally smaller in Lord of the Rings- I'm sure they can make visually identical soldiers taller easily.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-11-16 04:25am

They didn't use digital hobbits, just force projection and size stand ins...

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2002-11-16 05:24am

If all of the Stormtroopers in the Empire should be cloned, I don't think the Kaminoans could handle it, as Kamino is a small backwater planet which almost nobody knows about. The Kaminoans are neither the only cloners in the galaxy, so it's safe to assume that the Stormtroopers - if they are clones - are cloned by multiple cloning corporations on multiple worlds, and that they are cloned from multiple people - which would explain the varying height of stormtroopers in the original trilogy.

However, if I were Lucas, I'd say that the Stormtroopers weren't cloned but rather genetically tailored as embryos and recruited extensively from a few select families with strong military traditions - kind of a futuristic Waffen SS.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-16 05:30am

Is Kamino the only place that the Kaminoans have cloning centers on? Remember, the Republic clone army isn't the first clone army they have made.

The different heights can be explained by different corporations having to use different templates, copyright reasons

, meaning different heights and voices.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2002-11-16 07:55am

More interestingly, not all clones are equal. Royal Guards..

Akm72 · Post by **Akm72** » 2002-11-16 10:40am

Except the Royal Guard obviously decend from the Senate Guard who existed before the Clone Troopers. There is no reason to assume that they're all clones as well.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2002-11-16 10:42am

Akm72 wrote:Except the Royal Guard obviously decend from the Senate Guard who existed before the Clone Troopers. There is no reason to assume that they're all clones as well.

In the Dark Horse Comic series Crimson Empire it's suggested that the Imperial Guard is made up of clones, although we only see two of them without their helmets on so it's possible that not all of them are clones.

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2002-11-16 11:58am

Actually, we see Kanos, Jax, and Kanos' partner I believe and it seems Kanos and his partner are actually normal humans, formely being Stormtroopers. Great job overriding all the EU George.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2002-11-16 12:16pm

Akm72 wrote:Except the Royal Guard obviously decend from the Senate Guard who existed before the Clone Troopers. There is no reason to assume that they're all clones as well.

It's stated they are stormtroopers from start. But here, I'll give you another reason:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/organi ... index.html

http://www.starwars.com/databank/organi ... index.html

Notice the height? You can check others if you like too.

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-11-16 01:49pm

This invalidates a BIG chunk of the EU I'd guess, pretty much everything that featured stormtroopers out of uniform up till now just got screwed. That would be all of Zahn's novels (well the first trilogy is most definately fucked and the duology has parts that may be buggered as well), the Wraith novels (they featured stormtroopers who weren't clones as I recall although I guess only those parts of the novels would be messed up not all of them), Crimson Empire (pretty much screwed by AOTC everyway possible when you think about it) and probably more I can't remember.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2002-11-16 01:56pm

Stravo wrote:Yeah but you get a completely loyal soldier that you can order to do anything and he won't betray you, be bribed, or rebel. Every emperor needs a loyal royal guard to help him secure power, even bannana republic dictators understand that. So Palpy creates an army that is immune to bribes and seduction and will back him up no matter what. Also, perhaps the clones make it easier for him to manipulate their performance ala Zahn's theory.

Bull and you know that. The whole point of Kamino would be for Palpy to have a ready army so he could easily start a war, and nothing more: it's a bit harder to rouse the warmongering spirits when the tooling up and training and conscripting costs hit the desk of the Senators. Not to mention the political anathema of such an idea to an entity such as the Galactic Republic.