(I realize that this thread is very biased towards the Empire because it's a sort of Fox news parody, but it's too much fun to rip apart pro-Empire threads.
)
Who were the bad guys in Star Wars?
The Galactic Empire. It says so in the scrolling text in the beginning of the movie.
They call it The Force, you know, like it's supposed to be used for domination and hurting people. They use light sabers - real peaceful badge of office, those.
Both Jedi and Sith use both the Force and lightsabers. So using the FOrce and lightsabers automatically makes you evil. Who fought for the Rebel Alliance? Jedi. Oh wait...who ruled the Empire? A pair of Sith Lords...
I remember one whose idea of an appropriate response in a bar-room brawl was to cut the guy's arm right off without even a warning or anything. And they call themselves the good guys?
Yep. He acted in self-defense to save Luke and quite possibly the alien he disabled from getting himself killed and/or getting himself locked up in an Imperial detention center.
We only have the Rebel's word for it that they're the good guys and the Empire are the bad guys.
Also, the creator of Star Wars...
Even the least cynical can see that they might just have a vested interest in portraying themselves as heroic underdogs, fighting for freedom and apple pie.
I don't recall ever seeing the Rebels boast about their righteous cause for freedom. Just a bunch of name-calling directed at Imperials when Princess Leia was in Imperial custody and being tortured.
There are, however, enough publications for us to examine the evidence for ourselves. In order to maintain the necessary objectivity, the self-styled "Rebel Alliance" will be referred to as "the Terrorists".
LOL
Recruitment
The Terrorists would have us believe that all their operatives are pure-hearted idealists operating from the highest of motives. One example frequently cited in Luke Skywalker. Records of his recruitment [1], however, show that he joined after being misled. The war criminal Kenobi told him that Lord Vader had killed his (Luke's) father despite knowing [2] that Vader was, in fact, Luke's father. Kenobi and his partner Yoda later regretted the fact that Luke had found out the truth [3]. Malicious breaking of family ties hardly seems to accord with terrorist propaganda about their motives.
What the hell is this? He was misled by someone not even IN the Rebel Alliance when his only family members were brutally slaughtered by the Empire? His family's murder was the deciding factor of Luke's enrollment in the Rebel Alliance, not Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda telling him things that he couldn't have understood without training. Also they most likely didn't want Luke to know Vader was his father or else he would have been reluctant to fight him, as we see in RotJ. He was the galaxy's only hope. They weren't about to screw around with Luke's mind by telling him the awful truth until they felt he was ready to accept it.
Other Terrorist recruits are less savory, however. Numerous publications record the desire of the terrorists to recruit other criminals, be they mercenaries such as gorgeous pouting Kyle [4], pirates [5], renegade Imperial officers who make it clear that they wish to defect solely for financial considerations [6], or smugglers [7].
The Empire also makes deals with bounty hunters and some of the galaxy's most powerful crime lords, such as Jabba the Hutt and Prince Xizor. Hell, they contracted Black Sun to help construct the Death Star II. So don't go blaming the Rebel Alliance for getting smuggled weapons past Imperial patrols. When the entire galaxy is a warzone, you need to use smugglers to get things done. Also, renegade Imperial officers are the Empire's responsibility, not the Rebel Alliance's. It's their problem if they don't care if their own soldiers are loyal or not.
The fraudulent trader Solo is only one of the latter, but perhaps the best known. Lest it be thought that pirates are all jolly yo-ho-ho types and smugglers are enterprising lads evading unjust tariffs
Tariffs? No they are evading Imperial warships when they smuggle such things as weapons.
(the terrorists would love to have you believe that. Ask anyone who's been mugged if the muggers are loveable. Ask anyone who works with Crack addicts if smuggling is fun),
Ask anyone that's business has been taken over by Imperials, family has been brutally slaughtered by Imperials, have had their entire species enslaved by Imperials, have had their homeworld destroyed by Imperials, or had been tortured by Imperials if it's any fun. THEN we can talk about muggers and crack dealers. Besides, the Rebels had no interests in smuggling drugs or robbing people. They had interests in getting military equipment.
the career of Solo is known in some detail.
It is common knowledge that Solo was up to his cute smile in debt to a particularly sadistic crime lord [1].
Bear in mind that crime lord is allowed to operate by the Empire and also has dealings with the Empire.
What is less well known is why.
Solo was in the Imperial Navy as an officer. He saved Chewbacca from being enslaved. The Imperial Navy gave him a dishonorable discharge for trying to save a slave. Chewbacca owed him a Wookie life debt. They were disillusioned and soon disgusted at the Empire for its crimes against life. They wanted to stick it to the Empire in any way possible, so they smuggled and then joined the Rebel Alliance.
This information was revealed in a recent document [8]. He had in fact been smuggling a drug used as a particularly revolting truth drug manufactured in a particularly revolting manner. Let's get this straight. He was smuggling a cargo which he knew would be used for torture by a noted sadist, and was forced to dump it when challenged by Customs. This is one of the "heroes" of the terrorists.
I never read the book. But I thought truth drugs were used by the Empire?
I believe the term "hero" is better used for the customs officers who, at the cost of their own lives, forced Solo to abandon the cargo so that it could do no further harm.
Why should the term "hero" be applied to the Imperials? They had no idea he had the drugs. They unintentionally caused Solo to dump the cargo. If Nazis were rounding up Jews and didn't find a few of them, which meant they wouldn't have had to suffer in concentration/death camps, were the Nazis heroes?
Later, after he had been completely corrupted by the terrorists, Skywalker attempted to recruit this same sadistic criminal (Jabba) [3].
He never tried to recruit Jabba. He just wanted his friends and his droids back.
We note from the recruitment package [5] that of the 24 types of beings specifically targeted by Terrorist recruitment, fully one half are criminals (Pirates), traitors (Retired Imperial Captains) or the deluded who don't know what they are letting themselves in for (Ewoks).
As said before, Luke wasn't trying to recruit anyone. He despised all of them. He only wanted his friends and droids back. And the Ewoks were there only hope on Endor. Plus, the Rebel Allliance never forced them to help them fight against the Empire. They just told the Ewoks factual events that took place and the Ewoks used their common sense to come to the conclusion that the Imperials were the bad guys and the Rebels were the good guys.
Compare this with the Imperial attitude. The Empire recruit beings who will become efficient professionals dedicated to Service and Duty. The distaste of Imperial officers towards bounty hunters [2] is very much more high-minded than the attitude of the terrorists.
VADER HIMSELF EMPLOYED BOUNTY HUNTERS. And before you kept rambling on about retired Imperials turning to a criminal life and corrupt Imperials. Plus the Empire deals with powerful crime organizations and bounty hunters.
Receiving stolen goods
The terrorists' casual approach to common lawbreaking is seen elsewhere in the career of Skywalker. Having bought two droids which he had every reason to suspect were stolen [1], he later found out that this was in fact the case. Did he attempt to return the droids to their proper owner or his next of kin? No, and his ownership of those droids was unquestioned amongst the terrorists. Sounds like receipt of stolen property to me.
Bullshit. Jawas don't steal. They find droids in the desert that are unmissed and sell them. Everyone knows that. We never saw Jawas steal once. Ever. Plus, Luke wondered about who owned them before and wanted to find him. So he was probably considering the return of the droids to their rightful owner.
Egalitarian?
The terrorists make much of their egalitarian approach. They claim that the Empire is run by and for white human males with English accents.
English accents?! There were several Imperial officers in the movies without such accents. And why would Rebels claim they have English accents if English accents don't even exist in the SW galaxy?! Besides, it IS run for and by white human males. Here's a fun scavenger hunt for you. Look at all of the Star Wars movies and find in the Empire:
a. A female anything.
b. An alien anything.
c. A human that isn't white.
Are they serious? Does anyone actually believe a galaxy-wide civilization could be usurped by such a small group?
YES. And I thought a lot of your pro-Imperials claimed that white humans were the dominant species of the galaxy.
In any case, they are wrong.
No, YOU are wrong. The Empire is a xenophobic, racist, sexist totalitarian government ruled by two Sith Lords.
Vice-Admiral [6], later Grand Admiral [7] Thrawn reached the highest ranks of the Imperial navy, despite being a non-human.
Whoop-dee-freaking-doo. He suffered much from xenophobism from his peers and only got where he was because the Empire damn near collapsed after the Battle of Endor.
But are the terrorists so squeaky-clean in that respect?
Yes.
Oh, they have members from all sorts of species, as is to be expected.
Yes.
But where are the non-humans in the upper echelons?
You mean aliens like ADMIRAL Ackbar?
Actually, I can tell you the answer to that.
Please do.
They are in command of the warships.
Don't you mean the entire Rebel military?
The large capital ships of the terrorists are controlled by their builders - Mon Calamari - because of design features which only Mon Cal can understand [9] (if the Imperials used that excuse, it would be called speciesism!)
Let's put this back into context. The warships were originally built as cruise liners run by Mon Calamaris. They were not intended for the use of a military organization made up of other species. Don't forget that after the Battle of Endor they refitted the Mon Calamari Star Cruisers to be able to accomodate other species. With the industrial might of the Empire, with an entire galaxy of resources, it never accomodated other aliens because it didn't want to. It is xenophobic. The officers detested Bossk and Chewbacca in TESB and ANH, respectively. And I'm sure they hated the Ewoks as well. Especially since they were defeated by them.
The Mon Calamari allow other species to help with the menial tasks aboard ship, while retaining control themselves.
What menial tasks?! Commanding the Rebel Alliance is a MENIAL TASK? I wonder what an important task is...
The Mon Calamari claim that these massive ships, comparable in size and power to Imperial Star Destroyers, were originally built for peaceful exploration [9,10,11].
Not peaceful exploration, but as cruise liners. That is why they are beautifully designed and unique, unlike that of the military vessels of the Empire. Otherwise, they would have all been standardized and would not have been treated almost like artwork.
Yeah, sure pals.
Yeah, sure!
Earth history shows us that Athens dominated the Greek federation by having control of the ships. It seems the Mon Cal are doing the same with the terrorists.
REALLY?! Why is it that they let them fly all of their fighters and allow them to operate their own Nebulon B frigates and transports? Not to mention that they later accomodated other species for their Mon Calamari Star Cruisers.
If further proof that the terrorists are fundamentally prejudiced on the grounds of species were needed, consider the following. Why didn't the Wookie get a medal [1]?
Why didn't Wedge or the other surviving Rebel pilot get the medal? They helped just as much Chewbacca did. They weren't the ones that fired the torpedoes down the exhaust port or manage to scatter two of the most elite TIE Fighter pilots in the Empire plus Darth Vader himself. And why didn't they put Chewbacca back into slavery then?
While I'm on the subject of egalitarianism, what sort of a Republic is it that has hereditary monarchy [1]?
Are you talking about Naboo?
War criminals
The terrorists complain that the Imperial forces are brutal and ruthless. However, the truth is that the terrorists started it, and they are simply complaining about the Empire's natural and understandable heavy response to terror tactics. The Declaration of Rebellion states [9,10,11] "We will fight you with any and all means at our disposal". Now, to declare total war, and then complain when the Empire responds by taking them at their word seems a little hypocritical.
Complaining?! THEY NEVER COMPLAINED. WTF are you talking about? Also, the Rebels don't use torture, shoot unarmed and/or retreating enemies, punish their own forces by choking them to death, or brutally slaughter civilians the way the Imperial Empire does. So WTF is this shit about them complaining?
On Earth, conventions of war, up to and including the Geneva Convention have attempted to prevent hostile powers from engaging in this sort of destructive warfare. In particular, the distinction between combatants and non-combatants is vital for the protection of civilians.
Yeah, so why does the Imperial Empire disregard this?
The terrorists have not merely done away with this distinction, they very often hide their bases amidst civilian centres of population [4].
Bullshit. Yavin 4 and Hoth were civilian centers of population?! Since when do trees and wampas count as civilians?
They are appalled when the Imperial forces destroy this base, with attendent civilian casualties.
Wouldn't anyone be appalled when their civilians are killed? Unless it's the Empire and couldn't give a shit about its people.
It should be noted, however, that the Imperial forces did not bombard the base from space, but sent in specialist troops. They kept civilian casualties to a minimum. I seem to remember the reaction of the West to someone who attempted to use a "human shield". In the conflict which followed, the Western world did bombard civilian areas, supposedly to destroy military targets. By this token, the Empire is morally somewhat superior to the Western world, while the Terrorists are comparable to Saddam Hussein.
Meanwhile, the Imperial forces site their bases well clear of innocent civilians, without detriment to those civilians. For instance, on Endor [3] the Imperial base coexisted with, but apart from, the natives.
So was Yavin 4 and Hoth. Actually, more so. They had NO civilized inhabitants on either planet AT ALL, unlike Endor.
If the Imperials were really ruthless and evil, they would have leveled the forest in the vicinity of their base,
Since when does knocking down a few trees around a military base make an entire organization evil? You sound like a tree-hugger to me.
and eliminated the semi-sentient Ewoks.
Semi?! They are sentient just as much as humans are. They have similar tribes as we have had in our past and even today. Just because they speak in another alien language and aren't as developed as we are, or in this case other species in the galaxy, does not mean they are only partially sentient. And why would they eliminate the Ewoks when they could use them for slave labor?
They didn't. They lived in peaceful coexistence until the terrorists - once again blurring the line between combatants and non-combatants - persuaded the Ewoks to take part in an unprovoked attack.
Not true. As described earlier, the Rebels only related to the Ewoks factual events and did not blur anything. It was solely the Ewoks' decision to help the Rebels, and they could have pulled out of the agreement at any time they wanted to.
Jedi terror
It is said that the Empire rules by terror, but what is less well known is that it is simply trying to re-establish the law and order which existed previously.
...through terror. They even design their weapons to instill fear on its own people. Tarkin's doctrine only worked because of its excessive use of keeping the population in constant fear of the Empire.
The Old Republic's terror weapon was the Jedi [9], a self-chosen, self-perpetuating, unaccountable body. The mere mention of their name was sufficient to quell rebellion [8,9]. (The terrorists would have you believe that it was a Golden Age when no one wanted to rebel, but the latter source makes it clear that this is a lie. People were simply too terrified to rebel.)
The Jedi did not slaughter anyone in unprovoked situations. In every situation the Jedi of the Old Republic were in, they were always defending themselves. They even help guide civilians to be moral, unsptanding citizens of the Republic. As example, when Obi-Wan Kenobi was approached by a drug dealer, he used a Jedi mind trick to tell the misguided civilian to go home and rethink his life without having to lock him up or do business deals with him like the Empire does to its criminals.
In what way is that different from the Death Star?
The Jedi don't needlessly destroy planets or rule by fear. In fact, they don't even rule at all. They merely serve the Republic to mediate in conflicts.
Is it not misguided to oppose the one while trying to reinstate the other?
They are two completely different things. So the answer is no, it is not misguided. Besides, the Empire not only ruled by fear with their Death Star(s), but their entire military. ALL of their weapons were designed to have deep psychological impacts on the Empire's opposition, making them too scared to even try to rise up against tyranny.
The only reason to do that is because one intends to be in charge in the "new old republic".
The Jedi DID NOT run the Republic. They did not abuse their power. They followed instructions from the Republic Senate only. They had little say or interest in how to run the galactic government. They just wanted to keep the peace.
A fairly lengthy quote from the now corrupt Jedi Skywalker makes the Terrorist position clear:
Corrupt? Pfffttt.
"Now we have a New Republic. The Empire appears to be defeated. We have founded a new government based upon the old" (complete with the corruption that led to Palpatine's rise to power?)
No, minus the evil dictator that caused a galactic war. It's funny that you admit it is a bad thing Palpatine rose to power when you choose to support the Empire.
"but let us hope we learn from our mistakes. Before, an entire order of Jedi watched over the Republic, offering strength ... and (supporting) the rightful government of worlds." (Whether the people liked it or not).
Beats the hell out of the Empire which was ran by only two Sith Lords.
Skywalker continues; "what will happen when we begin squabbling among ourselves over petty matters? The old Jedi helped mediate many types of dispute." (Whether the people liked it or not).
Also beats the hell out of the Empire simply killing civilians and dealing with criminals at its own discretion.
"What if there are no Jedi Knights to protect us in the difficult times ahead?" [8]. In short, what is being offered is simple despotism by the Jedi (and who is the only surviving Jedi master?); there seems to be no consideration that just maybe people who have risked death in the name of freedom could rule themselves. However, such is not the agenda of the Terrorist leadership. They simply want power for themselves.
Again, the JEDI DO NOT CONTROL THE GOVERNMENT! They simply mediate conflicts and preserve peace.
The terrorist Mothma is supposedly both Commander-in-Chief and Chief of State, but only until the death of the emperor [11]. Yet, years after his death, there she is, still in charge [7,8,12,13]. So much for democracy and "checks and balances". Dictator for life seems to be a more appropriate title.
Wasn't she elected?
Bloody-handed psychos
The terrorists are united only in their opposition to the Empire [11]. Some of the elements in the terrorist organization are "incompetent or corrupt", and some are "morally dubious" [11]. So, even in their own propaganda, the terrorists admit that they employ bloody-handed psychopaths. And their response to discovering this?
"if a Sector Force is not trusted, the Alliance does not commit any star fighters, men or secret intelligence to it. When the Sector Force eventually falls apart, as it inevitably does, Alliance Command then steps in and rebuilds it from scratch. These draconian measures can be cruelly hard upon the ... innocent ... in the Sector."
Elsewhere in this reference, it is admitted that Sector Forces have been known to be incompetent or riddled with spies or just plain weak. It is left unstated that they might be corrupt. I'm reminded that the psychopath "Bloody Bill" Anderson held a colonelcy in the Confederate army during the American Civil War, and used this as an opportunity to murder civilians and unarmed soldiers on furlough.
I'd like to know who said this, the whole conversation or speech, and the context in which it was said. I can't say anything about it unless I know everything about it.
Seduction of the innocent
As a paradigm of the corruption of innocence which the terrorists will undertake in their pursuit of power, the career of Skywalker is instructive, especially as he became one of the terrorist leaders. Oh, the young Skywalker was no angel, he was prepared to purchase droids which he suspected to be stolen, but he was recruited by falsehoods
I went over this. This is pure bullshit.
(and incestuous desire: another crime against the family perpetrated by Kenobi [1]).
They never had intercourse and never knew. And Kenobi probably didn't want to tell Luke too early, or Vader and Palpatine would then discover Leia's Force sensitivity.
Before long, he was being schooled in hard-heartedness. His friends were being tortured for his sake, but his instructor attempted to persuade him to leave them to suffer [2].
Let's not forget who FUCKING TORTURED THEM. And Yoda was willing to sacrifice a handful of people to save the entire galaxy from the Empire. Besides, Luke DID go after them, so he did not have a supposed "hardened heart."
Before long, he was happy to see his own sister held prisoner by the sadistic Jabba [3].
So? That's good that he was happy to see her alive. And when did he ever jump up and down in joy? I never saw him express outwardly his happiness that she was alive.
Not to mention his droids, one of which definitely had not volunteered.
He was planning to rescue everyone. And he succeeded.
And his use of his mental powers? Is deliberately using one's mental powers to inflict harm upon another sentient the stuff of the Dark Side or not?
He temporarily choked the Gamorean guards to gain entrence and fooled with Bib Fortuna's mind a little to get to Jabba. He didn't slice them up with his lightsaber or choke them all to death. And even if he did, according to you it is justified and not an atrocity.
The rules [5] say yes. And what did Skywalker do to a guard who was only following orders to prevent his ingress without proper authorization [3]? Why, he hurt him, using his mental powers.
He choked them for only a short moment. Wow...that's so horrible when you take into account how Vader treated Captain Antilles.
Vader was a ruthless disciplinarian.
Killing officers is not discipline. It is barbarism.
He executed officers under him who had disobeyed orders in the face of the enemy - allowable under the rules of war.
NO IT ISN'T! Because they did not disobey orders, but just screwed them up! Did the U.S. military execute all of its soldiers whenever they failed during WWII, when all of America was geared entirely for war? NO. There is a DISTINCT difference between shooting military personnel for treason or cowardice and shooting them for incompetence or failure.
Skywalker hurt others simply, it seems, to show off. Which is worse?
What's worse? Pulling this showing off nonsense out of your ass or having a really warped point of view of Star Wars?
Origins of the rebellion
The Terrorist organization grew out of the breakdown of the Old Republic [5,9,10,11,14].
No, it was the Empire that grew out of the breakdown of the Old Republic.
To summarize, corruption among the Senators was rife. Palpatine was elected Chancellor, simply because he was free from corruption. He then began to quietly restore law and order, and it was noticed that:
"In the midst of chaos, the previously underrated senator began the wheels of government turning" [14].
Which proves my point that the Empire rose out of the ashes of the Old Republic.
He then promised to turn his attention to "eradicate the corruption and social injustice" of the bloated, corrupt senators.
By eradicating the Senate completely!
It was at this point that Mon Mothma openly, and Bail Organa secretly [11] began supporting armed revolt to destroy the Emperor. It was not the actions taken against pirates, or crime bosses, or the necessary expansion of the military that caused these Senators into armed revolt. It was Palpatine's promise to clamp down on Senatorial Corruption.
No, it was Palpatine's evil totalitarian rule that caused them to revolt against the Empire.
One is forced to ask why.
Because Palpatine's evil Empire sucked.
Bail Organa "funneled funds, arms and intelligence" to many resistance movements while he was still a Senator on "many" Appropriation and Military Committees [11]. Let's get this straight; he was responsible for sending military aid to forces that were in direct military conflict with the organization that he was sworn to uphold.
He, and all Rebels alike, swore to uphold the REPUBLIC, not the EMPIRE.
In short, he was the worst kind of traitor, sending troops to die in order to line his pockets.
Line his pockets with what?! And WTF did Palpatine do?! Started and controlled an entire galactic war merely for his advancement of power.
Alderaan
The single most important piece of propaganda of the Terrorists is the destruction of Alderaan. It has been portrayed as a planet of pacifists who had done no-one any harm [1].
This is true. Alderaan was made up of pacifists who never attacked the Empire, who were on the brink of giving up pacifism to fight the Empire's tyranny.
One might justly argue that the destruction of Alderaan was the act of one individual (Grand Moff Tarkin) for reasons that can only be guessed at.
What is there to guess about? He was a typical arrogant Imperial asshole with a power trip. Even when Princess Leia cleared Alderaan of its suspicions of aiding the Rebellion, Tarkin destroyed a peaceful planet for no reason whatsoever other than to mildly amuse himself.
However, the Terrorists, in their praise of Bail Organa, say that "he worked diligently to prepare his people (Alderaan) for the coming struggle, convincing them to renounce ... pacifism ... turning the planet ... into a centre for Rebellion." [11].
Notice how they never attacked Imperials yet and were convinced to join the Rebellion only after trying peaceful means.
The Terrorists thus admit that Alderaan was a legitimate military target. Alderaan, according to Terrorist propaganda was both a planet of harmless pacifists and a centre of armed rebellion. They can't have it both ways.
Imperial actions
Not true. All the way to its destruction, Alderaan has never attacked the Empire. They were arming themselves to fight after so many years of putting up with the Empire's bullshit, but never did fight.
Terrorist propaganda has only shown the actions of the Empire military against their own organization. However, the recently produced reference about the life in the Imperial forces [6] shows a rather more balanced view of Imperial actions - fighting pirates, establishing a colony in the frontier, bringing peace to a system-wide civil war, and so on. It is also noted elsewhere [14] that the Imperial military has taken actions against pirates, among others.
So what? The Empire screws over anyone who stands in its way. So if smugglers want to work with the Imperials or work in areas not concerning the Imperials, they couldn't care less. But if they help the Rebellion, they crack down on them. Hard. I never heard of the civil war, so please give details so that I don't have to make assumptions.
Evil galactic empire, or simply trying to uphold law and order against ruthless terrorists determined to wreak havoc on innocents while lining their own pockets? You decide.
I decide that I and many others with brains will see through this shit, and that the Rebels are overall good people.
References
[1] A New Hope: Film
[2] The Empire Strikes Back: Film.
[3] Return of the Jedi: Film.
[4] Dark Forces: Computer game.
[5] Star Wars First Edition: Role-playing Game.
[6] Tie Fighter: Computer game.
[7] Heir to the Empire: Novel.
[8] Jedi Search. Novel.
[9] Star Wars Technical Manual: Book.
[10] Star Wars Sourcebook: Game supplement.
[11] Rebel Alliance Sourcebook: Game Supplement.
[12] Dark Force Rising: Novel.
[13] The Last Command: Novel.
[14] Imperial Sourcebook: Game supplement.
