Classification of ISDs

[Howedar]

Depends on what model you're using for a navy. The USN has no heavy cruisers at all, for example (although I guess they don't have battlecruisers either...).

[Alyeska]

Depends on what model you're using for a navy. The USN has no heavy cruisers at all, for example (although I guess they don't have battlecruisers either...).

That is because they have no need for such heavy ships with the likes of Carriers and Submarines. Even still, they had the larger ships when they were in contest with the Soviet Union. Conflict, whether hot or cold, is the ultimate driving force in large and powerful ships.

[Vympel]

Depends on what model you're using for a navy. The USN has no heavy cruisers at all, for example (although I guess they don't have battlecruisers either...).

That is because they have no need for such heavy ships with the likes of Carriers and Submarines. Even still, they had the larger ships when they were in contest with the Soviet Union. Conflict, whether hot or cold, is the ultimate driving force in large and powerful ships.

Gotta love them Kirov/Ushakov-class battlecruisers though

[Illuminatus Primus]

Explain the Invincible-class 2 km Dreadnaughts in use by the Old Republic according to one of the Han Solo trilogies.

Explain Marvel's numerous Battlecruisers and Cruisers which well-outclassed an ISD.

Explain the ISD multi-role nature, which is very reminscient of a destroyer.

It's called a battlecruiser, cruiser, and battleship by EU sources, I think we can ignore them on this point.

Heavy Destroyer or Heavy Cruiser is barely acceptable as other classings, based on the bigger ships' scale and the ubigtious nature of the ISD.

Explain how a private-size pre-Clone War "battleship" (carrier) is twice of length and many times the mass of an ISD if it is as large as a large cruiser.

[Alyeska]

Explain the Invincible-class 2 km Dreadnaughts in use by the Old Republic according to one of the Han Solo trilogies.

Explain Marvel's numerous Battlecruisers and Cruisers which well-outclassed an ISD.

Explain the ISD multi-role nature, which is very reminscient of a destroyer.

It's called a battlecruiser, cruiser, and battleship by EU sources, I think we can ignore them on this point.

Heavy Destroyer or Heavy Cruiser is barely acceptable as other classings, based on the bigger ships' scale and the ubigtious nature of the ISD.

Explain how a private-size pre-Clone War "battleship" (carrier) is twice of length and many times the mass of an ISD if it is as large as a large cruiser.

FYI Dreadnaught is not a class of ship. Dreadnaught is the name of the first British ship that radically changed ship building. Ships of its time were considered Dreadnaught type battleships, but were still battleships.

And as to the other classes of ships. First and foremost, remember that SW does not follow the standard naming convention. The Nebulon-B frigate is comparable to a Strike Cruiser. They rate cruisers in general lower then Destroyers. But then you have the Mon Cal cruisers which are rated at or better then the Imperial destroyers.

Then you have the BIG destroyers. Oh yes, the Eclipse is a Destroyer to by SW definition.

[Knife]

Explain the Invincible-class 2 km Dreadnaughts in use by the Old Republic according to one of the Han Solo trilogies.

Explain Marvel's numerous Battlecruisers and Cruisers which well-outclassed an ISD.

Explain the ISD multi-role nature, which is very reminscient of a destroyer.

It's called a battlecruiser, cruiser, and battleship by EU sources, I think we can ignore them on this point.

Heavy Destroyer or Heavy Cruiser is barely acceptable as other classings, based on the bigger ships' scale and the ubigtious nature of the ISD.

Explain how a private-size pre-Clone War "battleship" (carrier) is twice of length and many times the mass of an ISD if it is as large as a large cruiser.

1. Alyeska is right, "Dreadnaught" was the British ship that defined a modern day Battleship. Since the HMS Dreadnaught, the term dreadnaught just meant battleship. FYI, it could have been Fearless, or Victory, or Dumbshit wich we would now call the pre Empire vessels we know as dreadnaughts.

2. Alot of the comic ships we see can be trivialized as artistic licence on the part of the comic book guy's. Some like Griel's ship need to be categorized, but some of the ships used as background are artistic expressions of an ISD.

3. Modern day cruisers have or can have a number of helo's on board to provide anti sub, or recon, search and rescue, and other such missions. Tie fighters could and can do simular missions for a ISD. Also the lack of a dedicated fleet carrier for SW fleets might be due to the ability of the ISD to carry fighters therefore negating the need for dedicated carriers. One must also note that all lesser craft will end up on escort duty for larger or more important ships. Battleships have escorted carriers before and they do not get classified as destroyers for it. Also it seems that the ISD is evolved from the Acclamator and Victory and still retains the assualt ship features of the previous vessels witch would account for the fighters and high cargo and troop compliment.

4. Yup, you can ignor the EU on many accounts.

5. Many modern day destroyers and cruisers are roughly the same size. IIRC the Ticonderoga class started out as a DG and later was reclassified as a CG.

6. A modern day cruiser is more powerful than its counter part say 50 years ago, in fact one can say that a modern day cruiser is more powerfuly than a 50 year old battleship and a modern day cruiser is alot smaller than a battleship of old. Also remeber that the Trade Fed ships started life as large freighters.

[Peregrin Toker]

Here's my rationalization:

When Palpatine seized power, his plan for naval extension included much bigger warships, including 1-2km destroyers, 3-4km cruisers and battleships which were larger.

However, as the cruisers took longer time to construct and the Imperial High Command realized that they needed a large fleet in order to maintain order, they decided to construct a large fleet of destroyers and use them as cruisers, because they functioned as capital ships just as well.

This, on the other hand, does not mean that the real cruisers were not made. A great deal of cruisers were made, but they were not as abundant as destroyers.

[Alyeska]

Here's my rationalization:

When Palpatine seized power, his plan for naval extension included much bigger warships, including 1-2km destroyers, 3-4km cruisers and battleships which were larger.

However, as the cruisers took longer time to construct and the Imperial High Command realized that they needed a large fleet in order to maintain order, they decided to construct a large fleet of destroyers and use them as cruisers, because they functioned as capital ships just as well.

This, on the other hand, does not mean that the real cruisers were not made. A great deal of cruisers were made, but they were not as abundant as destroyers.

The problem is that you are deriving the word Destroyer for the Imperial and Victory because of the Star Destroyer bit. That does not work because the Executor, Sovereign, and Eclipse are also Star Destroyers but they certainly weren't intended as mere escort ships.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Which is why Saxton ignored the "destroyer" in the name, assumed it was just the name of the series of KDY vessels (brand-name or something) and placed them in order by scale.

The jobs the ISD generally participates in is closer to a destroyer then a battleship, IMHO, and a destroyer is not limited to escort duty.

[Alyeska]

Which is why Saxton ignored the "destroyer" in the name, assumed it was just the name of the series of KDY vessels (brand-name or something) and placed them in order by scale.

The jobs the ISD generally participates in is closer to a destroyer then a battleship, IMHO, and a destroyer is not limited to escort duty.

No, the jobs the ISD conducted was primarily as command ship and offensive action ship. Destroyers today do conduct offensive operations, but they do so when combined with other forces or when taking part of a larger operation. Even then modern destroyers are not optimized for offensive action because they have some of their surface action capabilities taken away with anti submarine and anti-air capabilities expanded.

The ISD is not an escort ship of any sort. It is considered one of the most powerful ships ever built, even in the NJO era. It carries a massive array of weapons, a goodly size of strike craft. It is meant to do everything relatively well, which is what a good cruiser is known for.

[Cpt_Frank]

Have to agree with Alyeska here, with all the evidence we currently have we can safely designate the ISD as cruiser.
That what makes the VSD and ISD special could be that they are cruiser-class vessels with battleship-level weaponry.

[Yomin Carr]

see the name Star destroyer as one word
becaus it could destroy "stars" (BDZ) so the ultimate weapon (name)of fear


i think it has nothing to do with earth naval technics

[SirNitram]

As far as I can figure it, it goes like this...

ISD: Cruiser/Command/Multirole Escort(ISD's DO function as escorts for the true heavies of the Imperial Navy).
Allegiance SD: Heavy Cruiser/Command
Executor: Supercarrier/Command(I say Supercarrier because of the immense size of it's hangar bay, able to hold even entire ISD's)
Sovereign: Battleship/Superheavy Escort(Built to back up the Eclipse)
Eclipse: Dreadnought Battleship/Command

I use 'Dreadnought' in the normal way I've heard it used: A colloquial term to dictate that said battleship is mean-ass-mother-fucker.

[starfury]

As far as I can figure it, it goes like this...

ISD: Cruiser/Command/Multirole Escort(ISD's DO function as escorts for the true heavies of the Imperial Navy).
Allegiance SD: Heavy Cruiser/Command
Executor: Supercarrier/Command(I say Supercarrier because of the immense size of it's hangar bay, able to hold even entire ISD's)
Sovereign: Battleship/Superheavy Escort(Built to back up the Eclipse)
Eclipse: Dreadnought Battleship/Command

now that is much better, everyone of these ships often can fulfill several roles in relation to other vessels, with many bordorline designs as well.
and I agree on the emphasis on command role/supercarrier for the Executor, she is not a true battleship like the Eclipse.

[Alyeska]

As far as I can figure it, it goes like this...

ISD: Cruiser/Command/Multirole Escort(ISD's DO function as escorts for the true heavies of the Imperial Navy).
Allegiance SD: Heavy Cruiser/Command
Executor: Supercarrier/Command(I say Supercarrier because of the immense size of it's hangar bay, able to hold even entire ISD's)
Sovereign: Battleship/Superheavy Escort(Built to back up the Eclipse)
Eclipse: Dreadnought Battleship/Command

I use 'Dreadnought' in the normal way I've heard it used: A colloquial term to dictate that said battleship is mean-ass-mother-fucker.

I hesitate to call the Allegiance a Heavy Cruiser because so few of that class was constructed. A Heavy cruiser is both extremely powerful but also relatively common. The ISD is the most visible symbol of the Empire, its damned common to see. Yet the Allegiance was built somewhat sparringly, meant more as a larger ship used as the lead of ISD battle groups or escort to REALLY big ships. Its only somewhat larger then other cruisers, but carries a larger array of weapons all things considered. That fits Battle Cruiser quite well.

[Knife]

As far as I can figure it, it goes like this...

ISD: Cruiser/Command/Multirole Escort(ISD's DO function as escorts for the true heavies of the Imperial Navy).
Allegiance SD: Heavy Cruiser/Command
Executor: Supercarrier/Command(I say Supercarrier because of the immense size of it's hangar bay, able to hold even entire ISD's)
Sovereign: Battleship/Superheavy Escort(Built to back up the Eclipse)
Eclipse: Dreadnought Battleship/Command

I use 'Dreadnought' in the normal way I've heard it used: A colloquial term to dictate that said battleship is mean-ass-mother-fucker.

The ISD goes well with cruiser designation, the original term cruiser was for fast well armed ships that "cruised" ahead of the fleet or by themselves as a recon force or force projection. The various types of ISD's from the hangerless craft to the comunication ship can denote the various types of cruisers. Such as the hangerless ISD can be seen as a heavy cruiser or even a battlecruiser, and the comunication ship could be denoted as a comand cruiser.

Allegence class SD is one I don't know well, is this Griel's ship from the comics?

Executor class would go well as carrier or command ship and you can just run them together and call it a command carrier.

The sovereign class is another I don't know about to much so I guess what ever you all decide.

The Eclipes class does scream battleship in just about everyway possible.

Keep in mind that almost all cannon ships in the Star Wars saga in the capital class range tend to be multirole ships even more so than their real life counterparts. So a direct comparison is hard, all or most SW ships tend to have facilities for fighter or small craft while modern day naval ships don't if you discount the small facilities that some cruisers and destroyers have for helo's(not fighter jets).

[Cpt_Frank]

Its only somewhat larger then other cruisers, but carries a larger array of weapons all things considered. That fits Battle Cruiser quite well.

Star Wars combat is somewhat reminiscent of World War I/II era combat.
So if we go by naval classification of that era, a cruiser is a medium sized ship, the workhorse of the fleet, a battlecruiser is a battleship sized ship with battleship weapons and cruiser armor giving it a speed advantage over the battleship.
By this definition, the ISD is a cruiser, however, the Allegiance is not a battlecruiser, but only a larger type of cruiser.
The Giel, being 11 km long, then is a battleship, and the Vengeance class, of the same length would be a battlecruiser.

[Illuminatus Primus]

So the VSD and the Interdictor without grav well generators would be destroyers?

[Cpt_Frank]

I guess the VSD would classify as light cruiser, and the Interdictor without the gravity wells, which is called Enforcer class IIRC, would be a frigate or destroyer.

[SirNitram]

The Allegiance does defy designation, due to it's rarity(Like the other Proto-Supers). It may, in fact, be a testbed craft, later turned over to Byss' fleet. Official is littered with these one-off classes, and I tend to lump most of them as Heavy Cruiser/Command and Carrier/Command vessels, with a few exceptions(The WEG Obliterator-class, for example, is Command/Seige Platform), as they seem better armed than ISD's but still inferior to the true big boys.

[Jim Raynor]

Where do the Obliterator class come from? I've never heard of them.

[Boba Fett]

In my opinion the name "Star Destroyer" is not ment to be a class name.

Lucas just wanted to find a name that describes a such big and powerful starship.
So I think the name Star Destroyer rather means that it's capable to destroy worlds or even a star system without real problems.

Think of this and remember the other names:

Death Star
Executor
Avenger
Tyrant

etc.

On the other hand Imperial Class Star Destroyer is a battleship.
VSDs are heavy cruisers.
The Executor is an oversized battleship with super heavy armament, rather designed for impressing the enemy or provoke fear than to be a real battleship.

...and remember that bigger and heavier armed ships (Eclipse, Sovereign) were later add-ons, so they weren't planned in the original concept.

Now everything is missed up by those authors whose books were published after the original trilogy. Although they gave a lot to the SW universe but because of their fantasy questions like this will pop up often.

[Vympel]

The Allegiance does defy designation, due to it's rarity(Like the other Proto-Supers). It may, in fact, be a testbed craft, later turned over to Byss' fleet. Official is littered with these one-off classes, and I tend to lump most of them as Heavy Cruiser/Command and Carrier/Command vessels, with a few exceptions(The WEG Obliterator-class, for example, is Command/Seige Platform), as they seem better armed than ISD's but still inferior to the true big boys.

I don't think it can be described as a prototype. We see as many as five or six examples IIRC:

The three ships escorting the Eclipse.
The Allegiance at the Battle of Calamari
A single ship patrolling Byss.

[Cpt_Frank]

Possible Allegiance class sightings also include the ship at Endor described at Saxton's site.

[Vympel]

Possible Allegiance class sightings also include the ship at Endor described at Saxton's site.

Yup it's possible. It could be the same as the multi-node bridge ship we see later on as well for all we know ...

You know I've asked those fuckers at Ask the Jedi Council on starwars.com .... NO ANSWERS.

Fucking just not helpful.