Demolishing Darkstar's bullshit about the novelization

[Alexus]

God I hate him. Shall we try and lure him back so we can smash all his theories?

[Montcalm]

God I hate him. Shall we try and lure him back so we can smash all his theories?

That wouldn't work,he even shut down his own web board poor guy couldn't handle it.

[Stofsk]

God I hate him. Shall we try and lure him back so we can smash all his theories?

No. He was banned for a reason.

[Darth Servo]

Anderson ADMITS they would vaporize a small town which is MORE than the Hiroshima bomb did, thus refuting his ridiculous claim that they can’t vaporize 40 meter asteroids.

I'd like to see his definition of a small town.

Probably the one-street shithole where he grew-up.

Shove this down the throats of Trekkies still trying to claim they are lasers.

Funny, I don't recall them using "particle beam" and "laser" in the same sentence.

Oh well. Even if they are different weapons, its STILL another weapon in the Imperial arsenal. Even if we GRANT the absurdity of the infinite immunity to lasers myth and the absurdity of the idea that SW weapons are lasers and they won't work against Fed shields, the SW side can just use different guns.

IIRC the first couple pages of the novel refer to both "flak" and particle beams. Vympel even posted the Excerpt I believe. If TLs are "particle beams", then they can't be creating "flak" can they?

Ironically I have acquired a copy of hte script, and from what I see (if this is a genuine version) they also make a distinction between "flak" and "laser blasts".. not that laser bolts are flak bursting.

So I was right and they are two different things. Yet ANOTHER weapon in the Imperial arsenal to use if TLs don't work (as ridiculous as the idea is).

We already had proof of greater than 10 gee acceleration (ANH, ROTJ, AOTC, etc.) In fact we know the fact Jedi can withstand greater than huuman tolerances also proves it.

And TESB when the Falcon gets rocked by a TL hit.

Actually they don't have shielding . These fighters are primarily designed for Jedi pilots. (And given how absurdly tiny they are, they don't relaly HAVE room for shield generators. Or sensors. Or heavy flight control gear that a normal fighter would have.)

Doesn't change the fact that the novelization explicitly mentions "shielding" while Anderson claims it doesn't.

[Darth Servo]

God I hate him. Shall we try and lure him back so we can smash all his theories?

We can do that without him being here.

[Master of Ossus]

God I hate him. Shall we try and lure him back so we can smash all his theories?

DarkStar will never be un-banned here while I am still a moderator. I imagine that he will never be un-banned while Mike Wong is still an admin, and while the other admins are where they are.

Seriously, I opposed banning DarkStar when the poll came up--I was completely wrong. The quality of discussion at the forum increased dramatically as soon as he was out the door. If he were to come back, I have every reason to believe that he would merely continue his normal behavior, and in so-doing would drag down the entire rest of the board.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Except of course for the tiny fact that if the planetary shield had been raised, they wouldn't have been able to kidnap Palpatine, making the entire "inside job" a colossal waste of time.

Good one, Darkstar. Isn't there something in Labyrinth of Evil about this?

In LOE rather than one "all encompassing" planetary shield, they seem to be utilizing large numbers of local ones.

Does it still enclose the planet through interlocking segments, or is it "spotty"?

[The Original Nex]

Except of course for the tiny fact that if the planetary shield had been raised, they wouldn't have been able to kidnap Palpatine, making the entire "inside job" a colossal waste of time.

Good one, Darkstar. Isn't there something in Labyrinth of Evil about this?

In LOE rather than one "all encompassing" planetary shield, they seem to be utilizing large numbers of local ones.

Does it still enclose the planet through interlocking segments, or is it "spotty"?

Interlocking Segments IIRC. The Seperatist atttack was so sudden and from such unexpected vectors that landing craft and fighters were able to reach the surface before the shields were activated, fighters then proceeded to destroy several generators leaving great holes in the shield system.

[Hardy]

As for Darkstar's later rantings about how fragile the Invisible Hand was during reentry, I think it's fairly obvious that tremendous forces were acting on Hand. There was a shot in the teaser in which the Hand simply goes straight down. It doesn't even appear to slow down relative to the other ships in orbit. Instead it simply goes straight down almost like the Titanic. I don't believe that atmospheric drag could cause this of de-orbit because at those altitudes(on Earth), the density of the atmosphere is about one ten millionth the density at sea level.

I haven't read the novel yet, but according to Darkstar's excerpts, control to the aft "control cells" was lost. If this controls the engines, it's possible that the engines could've misfired and propelled the entire ship straight down. As drag increases with the square of velocity and considering the cross sectional area of the Hand, I'm sure a propelled descent with those 2500 G engines would heat up the Hand considerably (forgive the run-on).

But that's just speculation with no calculations.

[Darth Servo]

As for Darkstar's later rantings about how fragile the Invisible Hand was during reentry, I think it's fairly obvious that tremendous forces were acting on Hand. There was a shot in the teaser in which the Hand simply goes straight down. It doesn't even appear to slow down relative to the other ships in orbit. Instead it simply goes straight down almost like the Titanic. I don't believe that atmospheric drag could cause this of de-orbit because at those altitudes(on Earth), the density of the atmosphere is about one ten millionth the density at sea level.

I haven't read the novel yet, but according to Darkstar's excerpts, control to the aft "control cells" was lost. If this controls the engines, it's possible that the engines could've misfired and propelled the entire ship straight down. As drag increases with the square of velocity and considering the cross sectional area of the Hand, I'm sure a propelled descent with those 2500 G engines would heat up the Hand considerably (forgive the run-on).

But that's just speculation with no calculations.

Its still better than how most Federation ships do in atmosphere.

[Meest]

As for Darkstar's later rantings about how fragile the Invisible Hand was during reentry, I think it's fairly obvious that tremendous forces were acting on Hand. There was a shot in the teaser in which the Hand simply goes straight down. It doesn't even appear to slow down relative to the other ships in orbit. Instead it simply goes straight down almost like the Titanic. I don't believe that atmospheric drag could cause this of de-orbit because at those altitudes(on Earth), the density of the atmosphere is about one ten millionth the density at sea level.

I haven't read the novel yet, but according to Darkstar's excerpts, control to the aft "control cells" was lost. If this controls the engines, it's possible that the engines could've misfired and propelled the entire ship straight down. As drag increases with the square of velocity and considering the cross sectional area of the Hand, I'm sure a propelled descent with those 2500 G engines would heat up the Hand considerably (forgive the run-on).

But that's just speculation with no calculations.

There's also a taskforce pounding on the ship along with internal explosions. One is caused by a generator area blowing up(which was already damaged and leaking fuel from "huge" explosions from the outside) from the inside courtesy of Anakin and Obi. This blows open the hull well before any mention of them losing orbit. The ship plunges more than once, and they apparantly regain some control then lose it again.

[Mange]

And it seems as if the ship was broken in two.

[Connor MacLeod]

As for Darkstar's later rantings about how fragile the Invisible Hand was during reentry, I think it's fairly obvious that tremendous forces were acting on Hand. There was a shot in the teaser in which the Hand simply goes straight down. It doesn't even appear to slow down relative to the other ships in orbit. Instead it simply goes straight down almost like the Titanic. I don't believe that atmospheric drag could cause this of de-orbit because at those altitudes(on Earth), the density of the atmosphere is about one ten millionth the density at sea level.

I haven't read the novel yet, but according to Darkstar's excerpts, control to the aft "control cells" was lost. If this controls the engines, it's possible that the engines could've misfired and propelled the entire ship straight down. As drag increases with the square of velocity and considering the cross sectional area of the Hand, I'm sure a propelled descent with those 2500 G engines would heat up the Hand considerably (forgive the run-on).

But that's just speculation with no calculations.

Both the ICS and the novelization make it apparent that the ship was subjected to a malfunction in its gravitic systems, which contributed ot the ship breaking up (in addition to being pounded by other warships, its uncontrolled spin, and whatnot.)

Besides which, this is a Separatist/Trade Fed ship, and one that seems designed (or modfied, going by the ICS) to serve as a carrier as well as a combat vessel. There is no particular reason to believe what applies to a Separatist ship (esp a Trade Fed ship) applies to a dedicated naval vessel. (Counter example: Trade Fed battleship, anyone?)

[Lord Poe]

There's also a taskforce pounding on the ship along with internal explosions. One is caused by a generator area blowing up(which was already damaged and leaking fuel from "huge" explosions from the outside) from the inside courtesy of Anakin and Obi. This blows open the hull well before any mention of them losing orbit. The ship plunges more than once, and they apparantly regain some control then lose it again.

The novelization also mentions the "gravity shear" helping to tear the ship apart.

That and Captain Needa pounding it to shit!

[Vympel]

Lt. Commander Needa, actually

In all liklihood though, the film will show the Invisible Hand surrounded by nothing but Venator-class Star Destroyers in its death-ride- we can see a Venator was right next to it in the trailer as it plunges for Coruscant.

[Connor MacLeod]

There's also a taskforce pounding on the ship along with internal explosions. One is caused by a generator area blowing up(which was already damaged and leaking fuel from "huge" explosions from the outside) from the inside courtesy of Anakin and Obi. This blows open the hull well before any mention of them losing orbit. The ship plunges more than once, and they apparantly regain some control then lose it again.

The novelization also mentions the "gravity shear" helping to tear the ship apart.

That and Captain Needa pounding it to shit!

Didnt I just say that?

[Lord Poe]

Didnt I just say that?

Yeah, but I say it with style!

[Lord Poe]

Christ, I just read through Darkstar's bullshit rebuttals to Vympel's on his ass-buddy's message board. I can't believe how pathetic this prick is. "Duh, no shield is mentioned , therefore, there's no shield!" Yeah, Darth Sidious would have NEVER thought to make certain the shield was down so his kidnapping could occur!

And, "Duh, the novel says these are view walls, but I'm going to ignore that and just call them windows!" Then he goes on to claim that most of the windows on the Enterprise were intact when the saucer crashed in Generations!



Yeah, you'd think the most important window of all, the one over the Captain's chair, wouldn't shatter like a cheap bay window!

[Darth Servo]

+http://movies.trekpulse.com/album/album ... ns1177.jpg

Yeah, you'd think the most important window of all, the one over the Captain's chair, wouldn't shatter like a cheap bay window!

Ooh, keep that pic around. I once ran into a Trekkie wanting me to prove that bubble on top of the saucer really was the bridge. He was trying to claim the main bridge was actually burried in the hull.

[Nick Lancaster]

Knowing Darkstar/RSA only from Mike's recounting, my first impression was, 'There can't be anyone that stupid, can there?'

Apparently, there can.

Darkstar crows about combat ranges, that engagement over Coruscant somehow disproves Dr. Saxton's work. However, in ESB, Vader specifically states, 'Ozzel came out of lightspeed too close to the system. A clean bombardment is now impossible.'

This can be understood as an Imperial capability to strike from range, from outside of a given system. For the 'Sol' System, that would suggest they can strike from beyond Pluto.

So why engage close-up over Coruscant? Because you have a need for greater precision. Because you want to kidnap the Chancellor (no transporter beam silliness in SW, Darktard). Because the Chancellor is dictating specific approaches for both sides.

Ah, well.

[Darth Servo]

Knowing Darkstar/RSA only from Mike's recounting, my first impression was, 'There can't be anyone that stupid, can there?'

Apparently, there can.

Absolutely He's STILL trying to claim that Alderaan's atmosphere can warp the light of the superlaser 90 degrees around the planet. Never mind that not even Venus or Jupiter's atmospheres can accomplish that trick. Never mind that we can SEE that Alderaan's atmosphere only warps its normal sunlight roughly the same as Earth's. Nope. Darkstar has his little "theory" and nothing will ever shake it from his mind, just like G. Kennedy still maintains the "no-laser" myth evey though it has been thoroughly debunked about a million times.

Darkstar crows about combat ranges, that engagement over Coruscant somehow disproves Dr. Saxton's work. However, in ESB, Vader specifically states, 'Ozzel came out of lightspeed too close to the system. A clean bombardment is now impossible.'

Its been pointed out to him that SW HANDGUNS have far greater range (TESB, AOTC) than what he gives SW cap ships credit for.

This can be understood as an Imperial capability to strike from range, from outside of a given system. For the 'Sol' System, that would suggest they can strike from beyond Pluto.

Yes but since all we have is dialogue, Scooter can play all kinds of games with "what they really meant" nonsense.

So why engage close-up over Coruscant? Because you have a need for greater precision. Because you want to kidnap the Chancellor (no transporter beam silliness in SW, Darktard). Because the Chancellor is dictating specific approaches for both sides.

Scooter just puts up the WOI, "it doesn't mention a shield so there isn't one". Not even a theater shield like the Rebels had on Hoth.

Ah, well.

I'm almost ready to do a response to his "rebuttal" (ROTFLMAO) of MoO's critique of his webpage. I know he'll resort to his usual bag of tricks, distortions and lies but what the hell. Its fun pointing out how stupid and dishonest he is.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Besides which, this is a Separatist/Trade Fed ship, and one that seems designed (or modfied, going by the ICS) to serve as a carrier as well as a combat vessel. There is no particular reason to believe what applies to a Separatist ship (esp a Trade Fed ship) applies to a dedicated naval vessel. (Counter example: Trade Fed battleship, anyone?)

What evidence is there that the Separatist warships, apart from the TradeFed Battleship, are not dedicated naval vessels?

[Publius]

As regards the Invisible Hand and her fate, the Revenge of the Sith Incredible Cross-Sections says this:

In a bold strike at the galactic capital Coruscant, raiders from the Separatist flagship Invisible Hand have abducted Supreme Chancellor Palpatine. The vessel waits in orbit with the Confederacy fleet as the droid kidnappers return with their valuable prize -- but before they can flee, thousands of Republic battleships engage the craft, trapping it in an upper atmospheric combat within the planet's defensive shield. Invisible Hand is badly damaged by superior enemy guns, so Jedi rescuers Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker must find Palpatine in a rapidly decaying spacewreck. Ruptured compartments are flooded with fluidic coolants and propellants laced with invisible, exotic hypermatter fuels. Artificial gravity, tensor fields, and inertial compensators all begin to fail, as the crippled ship threatens to tear itself apart. The battle wages on, until Invisible Hand begins its meteoric fall toward the surface of Coruscant.

and

Invisible Hand attempts to drift inconspicuously in the concentrated shelter of Separatist battleships, destroyers, and frigates. Large numbers of droid Vulture fighters and tri-fighters cluster protectively around the flagship. When Kenobi and Skywalker approach in their Jedi Interceptors, the ship's deflector shields are already failing -- small areas of the hull are open to attack from even the tiniest fighters. Anakin shoots out the atmosphere containment shield protecting the hangar entry, breaching the vessel's defenses.

As regards the nature of the separatist ships, the Munificent-class frigate is said to have "guarded banker's vaults on Outer Rim worlds and menaced planets heavily in debt to the Banking Clan," and and are said to have "former storage vaults for galactic currencies and precious metals are now used to transport military hardware."

[Darth Servo]

As regards the Invisible Hand and her fate, the Revenge of the Sith Incredible Cross-Sections says this:
<snip ICS quote>

We all know Scooter will predictably yell, "ICS isn't canon. Its part of that EU parallel universe". Yes, its pathetic. I know that and you know that but thats the way it is.

[Isolder74]

I'd like to know how he can claim that the windows are undamaged on the enterprise? We can't even see the damaged or undamaged windows in question!