CIS vs. Yuuzhan Vong

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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

NecronLord wrote:Somehow I think the enlisted men of the Imperial Navy would disagree with you over the idea that they are simply. And of course, if you think training sixty specialists is as hard as training six thousand (offi
Ok, what an argument. Is the limiting factor on fielding the warships the officer and specialist training or not? What takes the longest? They do. Therefore the limiting factor is going to be training them.

And no, numbers don't really matter. You can build enormous numbers of training camps and facilities and whatnot, but the curriculum that each individual officer will have to pass will remain the same. Whether you're training ten thousand officers or one, so long as the facilities and whatnot increase accordingly, the curriculum is going to be the limiting factor.
NecronLord wrote:And yet the Republic couldn't use this kind of advantage against the seperatists in the war... why?
They did. LoE and ROTS novelisation imply imminent Republic victory - just look how the Republic started with essentially zilch and look how they caught up to the CIS. Furthermore, we know that the Republic fields Saxtonian cruisers, and definitely Saxtonian dreadnoughts and battlecruisers. The largest ship fielded by the CIS known is the Trade Federation "battleship"; the largest true warship is the Providence-class destroyer.
NecronLord wrote:Spaarti cylinders still require months or years if the Thrawn technique is unavailable do they not?
Clone Commanders appear to have been introduced late in the war without the preparation of a year necessary. Moreover, if you had read you Thrawn novels correctly, it is stated that it was believed the clonemaster came up with a way to overcome the clone madness problem, but no one knew what it was. (My personal theory was that Palpatine could cloud the Force around the clones and suppress the pressures that drove them insane - Thrawn took a more direct route and simply removed the influence of the Force arround them with Ysalamiri).
NecronLord wrote:Explain why they're loosing the war by RotS if they have parity with the CIS.
I haven't seen a scrap of evidence that they were losing the war by ROTS; if anything, the ROTS novelisation and LoE imply the exact opposite. One could be forgiven for believing that you're presuming your conclusion to be correct without apparent evidence and asking demanding disproof. This is irrational.
NecronLord wrote:Yes. However, the Clone War era ships are supposedly decomissioned.
Proof?
NecronLord wrote:I find it unlikely that the Empire is that much more powerful than the republic, despite rebel claims to the contrary. Certainly technology has advanced by the Imperial era, but the weapons yeilds of weapons like the Banking Clan Frigate exceed anything that has ever been stated for even an ISD's broadside.
Your analytical technique is poor. An ISD gvien a thousand years and adequate fuel, maintanence, and energy storage media might be able to power a superlaser blast.

The wattage output for a IBC frigate is commiserate with its size just as much as a OT craft of the same scale. The large weapon takes a long time to charge, annhiliating a great deal of fuel. It is not comparable to a ship-to-ship, firing once a second battery.

Perhaps you'd care to notice that the IBC siege gun is rated in raw energy, without respect to charge time or refire rate. The appropriate analysis would be comparison of the respective wattage available to both vessels. That weapon's yield is not averaged over the amount of time needed to procure the energy it requires.
NecronLord wrote:Hence, weapons technology hasn't progressed that much, and the CIS has the all the advantages that the NR lacked when fighting the Vong does it not?
Not disputing that. However, I am disputing your haphazard uberCIS thesis.
NecronLord wrote:
Across the remnants of the Republic, stunned beings watch in horror as the battle unfolds live over the holonet. Everyone knows that more Jedi are killed or captured every day, that the Grand Army of the Republic has been pushed out of system after system

I think you are taking the evacuation of the CIS leaders to Mustafar as proof of the CIS being driven back on all fronts. I disagree, given that it was ordered specifically by Palpatine to get them all alone in one place for his new protegee to move them, it cannot be assumed to be indicative of the general state of affairs. Certainly the republic can take Utapau, but this was explicitly stated to be a simple trap for Obi-Wan or Grievous (whichever dies, Palpy wins), rather than an outpost the CIS was committed to defending.
Those quotes are HARDLY as definitive as the ones in regarding the Outer Rim Sieges or the other ones in LoE. Quite simply I can reconcile the two by stating that the text is conveying a sense of hopelessness and dread by emphasizing the losses over the gains. OR that the text is reflecting a recent Separatist comeback, and a series of demoralizing losses. OR that the Holonet is skewed by Palpatine to make the citizenry scared and more pliant to his increasing consolidation of executive power. The Japanese suffered demoralizing losses at Midway. That did not mean they were as of then losing the war - they had control of most of the Pacific, and in this case whatever losses incurred, the Republic maintains control of the galactic core and inner regions, and the CIS is mostly relagated to the fringe. The explicit information detailing the galactic strategic situation in LoE is that the CIS has lost territory all the way until the Outer Rim - the fringes of the spiral arms. Palpatine gives an entire speech to this effect. I suggest you read LoE.

Also, there is much circumstancial evidence that the Battle of Coruscant attack was viewed as a desperation move by the CIS.
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Post by SylasGaunt »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:
SBDs are pretty strong. So are the Magnaguards.
I know.. further helped by the fact that baktoid B1s are pure and utter shit. Hell even Grievous thinks they're pure and utter shit.
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Post by Darth Fanboy »

SylasGaunt wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote:
SBDs are pretty strong. So are the Magnaguards.
I know.. further helped by the fact that baktoid B1s are pure and utter shit. Hell even Grievous thinks they're pure and utter shit.
THE b1s are the TIE Fighters of ground combat. Sure when there's just one of them its not going to be too tough to beat him, but if the TF Drops about 100,000 of them on your city and has them march en masse its not as much fun, especially if they're being deployed with vehicle and infantry support and especially if its not just the standard B1 variant (Battlegrounds and BAttlefront show that there are several different weaponc onfigurations, the rocket trooper especially)
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Post by NecronLord »

Illuminatus Primus wrote: Ok, what an argument. Is the limiting factor on fielding the warships the officer and specialist training or not? What takes the longest? They do. Therefore the limiting factor is going to be training them.

And no, numbers don't really matter. You can build enormous numbers of training camps and facilities and whatnot, but the curriculum that each individual officer will have to pass will remain the same. Whether you're training ten thousand officers or one, so long as the facilities and whatnot increase accordingly, the curriculum is going to be the limiting factor.
*Sigh* do you get it? I have a training camp. It trains 5000 specialists. They can either be used to crew one ISD, or one hundred Trade Federation ships. Unless the Neiomodians are considerably less intelligent than humans, something I doubt, they can train the crew for a hundred ships in the time it takes the Republic to train the crew for one.

The idea that you can think it is as difficult to crew a ship with sixty organic crew as it is to crew one with 37000 is quite, quite staggering.

They did. LoE and ROTS novelisation imply imminent Republic victory - just look how the Republic started with essentially zilch and look how they caught up to the CIS. Furthermore, we know that the Republic fields Saxtonian cruisers, and definitely Saxtonian dreadnoughts and battlecruisers. The largest ship fielded by the CIS known is the Trade Federation "battleship"; the largest true warship is the Providence-class destroyer.
Uhuh. Saxtonian drednoughts are not true warships as much as sector defence ships. Is it any surprise that the Trade Federation doesn't field ships of similar size? (Setting aside for now, that these same drednoughts and battlecruisers are mysteriously absent from the defence of Coruscant.)

Clone Commanders appear to have been introduced late in the war without the preparation of a year necessary. Moreover, if you had read you Thrawn novels correctly, it is stated that it was believed the clonemaster came up with a way to overcome the clone madness problem, but no one knew what it was. (My personal theory was that Palpatine could cloud the Force around the clones and suppress the pressures that drove them insane - Thrawn took a more direct route and simply removed the influence of the Force arround them with Ysalamiri).

I haven't seen a scrap of evidence that they were losing the war by ROTS; if anything, the ROTS novelisation and LoE imply the exact opposite. One could be forgiven for believing that you're presuming your conclusion to be correct without apparent evidence and asking demanding disproof. This is irrational.
1- I haven't read LoE, and have little intention of doing so. The EU annoys me most of the time, and of the Clone Wars books I've tried to read, only Dark Rendevous has held my attention. If you're going to say that LoE (ignoring that it is C level, and trumped by the novelisation) contradicts me, please provide quotes. 2 - They don't need to be loosing the war to prove parity - they aren't winning either. The vastly out-resourced CIS is able to hold them off.

Proof?
Offhand, there is Leia's statement that clone wars era warships were far more polluting relative to both Imperial and Rebel ships of the post-Endor era.

Your analytical technique is poor. An ISD gvien a thousand years and adequate fuel, maintanence, and energy storage media might be able to power a superlaser blast.

The wattage output for a IBC frigate is commiserate with its size just as much as a OT craft of the same scale. The large weapon takes a long time to charge, annhiliating a great deal of fuel. It is not comparable to a ship-to-ship, firing once a second battery.

Perhaps you'd care to notice that the IBC siege gun is rated in raw energy, without respect to charge time or refire rate. The appropriate analysis would be comparison of the respective wattage available to both vessels. That weapon's yield is not averaged over the amount of time needed to procure the energy it requires.
It is however evidence that the CIS can make high energy TLs that are equal to those of the Empire. Combined with the evidence of the highly powerful and sophisticated generators of a core ship, it proves that there are no key advances in weapons and energy generation technology between the Clone Wars and the Imperial Era - in other words it proves that the technology needed to defeat the Vong exists in the Confederacy.

Not disputing that. However, I am disputing your haphazard uberCIS thesis.
What? That the CIS' approach to warfare (IE, droids and automation) is superior to both Vong biotechnological dependance, and the strange insistance on the use of clones and organics in the Empire, as well as their ships which are almost entirely designed for make-work (50 crewers just for a HTL turret? Can there be any question that all those crewmen are unneccessery?) for political reasons (public fear of droids and automation)?

Taking on a republic of 50,000,000 planets after starting with something on the order of 10,000 and still being able to induce defeats in the enemy years later sounds pretty damn uber to me, does it not sound uber to you?

Those quotes are HARDLY as definitive as the ones in regarding the Outer Rim Sieges or the other ones in LoE. Quite simply I can reconcile the two by stating that the text is conveying a sense of hopelessness and dread by emphasizing the losses over the gains. OR that the text is reflecting a recent Separatist comeback, and a series of demoralizing losses. OR that the Holonet is skewed by Palpatine to make the citizenry scared and more pliant to his increasing consolidation of executive power.
You would have an argument, if that were the only quote on that matter. It isn't. While I don't have the novellisation on me, I suppose I could produce more quotes by looking past page 2 when I get back home this afternoon.

More to the point, the more I hear about these supposed Republic victories, the more disgusted I am about the brainbugesque illogicality of the idea of Organics being superior to machines.

The Japanese suffered demoralizing losses at Midway. That did not mean they were as of then losing the war - they had control of most of the Pacific, and in this case whatever losses incurred, the Republic maintains control of the galactic core and inner regions, and the CIS is mostly relagated to the fringe. The explicit information detailing the galactic strategic situation in LoE is that the CIS has lost territory all the way until the Outer Rim - the fringes of the spiral arms. Palpatine gives an entire speech to this effect. I suggest you read LoE.
Drag myself through another EU book simply to win this debate? No thank you, I suggest you quote it.

Not that it would surprise me that the Republic controls the inner regions. They did after all, start off in control of them. Given the sheer size of the republic compared to the CIS, it is hardly unsurprising that most systems have not been touched by the CIS, but it is surprising that the CIS can win victories when outnumbered five thousand to one in terms of territory. That's like Luxembourg (2,586 sq km) taking on the US (9,629,091 sq km) and winning the battles, despite the US throwing everything at them. It is both a charge against the Republic's ill preparedness, and a validation of CIS tactical thinking.

Also, there is much circumstancial evidence that the Battle of Coruscant attack was viewed as a desperation move by the CIS.
According to Palpatine, and we all know how reliable he is, not many others. The Jedi spend the first half of the book bemoaning their continuous losses.
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Post by Kazuaki Shimazaki »

NecronLord wrote:*Sigh* do you get it? I have a training camp. It trains 5000 specialists. They can either be used to crew one ISD, or one hundred Trade Federation ships. Unless the Neiomodians are considerably less intelligent than humans, something I doubt, they can train the crew for a hundred ships in the time it takes the Republic to train the crew for one.
Actually, he understands your logic but you do not understand his.

5000 or 50, these numbers are nothing on the galactic scale. If you need 5000, you grab them, if you need 50, you grab them. So the limiter is time.

Your analogy could be solved just by saying that the solution is to recruit 500,000 people to man 100 ISDs to match the rate. They'd take the same amount of time to train.
Uhuh. Saxtonian drednoughts are not true warships as much as sector defence ships. Is it any surprise that the Trade Federation doesn't field ships of similar size?

A Sector Defence ship can be brought up, and supposedly ships like the Mandator II had longer range.
Offhand, there is Leia's statement that clone wars era warships were far more polluting relative to both Imperial and Rebel ships of the post-Endor era.
Horrendous analysis. Warships are made for performance. If pollution is the fucking price of performance it'd be paid.
It is however evidence that the CIS can make high energy TLs that are equal to those of the Empire. Combined with the evidence of the highly powerful and sophisticated generators of a core ship, it proves that there are no key advances in weapons and energy generation technology between the Clone Wars and the Imperial Era - in other words it proves that the technology needed to defeat the Vong exists in the Confederacy.
Tech in SW is basically static, so you are probably right the tech is all there.
Taking on a republic of 50,000,000 planets after starting with something on the order of 10,000 and still being able to induce defeats in the enemy years later sounds pretty damn uber to me, does it not sound uber to you?
See how that argument you just made could work just as well on the Vong that you (and I) both despise? You do realize they eventually fit all the Vong onto one planet, did you?
More to the point, the more I hear about these supposed Republic victories, the more disgusted I am about the brainbugesque illogicality of the idea of Organics being superior to machines.
If it is reality ... then your wishes (which are actually mine) do not supersede it.

Now, if only, if only someone would be willing to make competent droids in mass quantities so we can see them kick ass like they are supposed to.
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Post by NecronLord »

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Horrendous analysis. Warships are made for performance. If pollution is the fucking price of performance it'd be paid.
Eh? Yes. It is. It's not mine, it's Leia's. It is however, evidence that Clone Wars era ships aren't used in the Imperial Fleet of that era.

Tech in SW is basically static, so you are probably right the tech is all there.

See how that argument you just made could work just as well on the Vong that you (and I) both despise? You do realize they eventually fit all the Vong onto one planet, did you?
What? *Head smacks desk* Ewww. The fluids. The semen tsunami. Eww.

If it is reality ... then your wishes (which are actually mine) do not supersede it.

Now, if only, if only someone would be willing to make competent droids in mass quantities so we can see them kick ass like they are supposed to.
They do, supposedly, make both Droidekas and B2s in great numbers. Just still use lots of B1s for some reason.
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Post by Darth Fanboy »

Why spend the money on using b2s to fill the role a b1 can? Especially when manning vehicles or artillery.

EDIT:

What I mean to say is, why spend the money on a B2 if a b1 can fill the requirements without any real detriment, such as piloting a vehicle, and use the B2s in front lines combat.

Of course can't deny the benefit of cheaply produced soldiers in large numbers.
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Post by NecronLord »

This is true. I also seem to recall one of the seperatist ships literally carrying millions of B1s. They're easy to store after all.
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Post by Darth Fanboy »

The droids can fold up for storage to about half of their size IIRC.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

NecronLord wrote:*Sigh* do you get it? I have a training camp. It trains 5000 specialists. They can either be used to crew one ISD, or one hundred Trade Federation ships. Unless the Neiomodians are considerably less intelligent than humans, something I doubt, they can train the crew for a hundred ships in the time it takes the Republic to train the crew for one.
:roll:

Are you stupid? THE TRAINING CAMPS ARE NOT GOING TO BE A LIMITING FACTOR FOR THE CIVILIZATION THAT CAN BUILD THE DEATH STAR? OK?

Both sides can build more training camps than even the broadest estimate of their military forces require. They can each build as many as they want. Even if the Republic proportionally needs 3 times the training facilities for the same tonnage in warship as the CIS, it can effortlessly construct and operate that. If your point is that the Imps will field more costly ships due to the greater training infrastructure necessary, fine, but the Republic also has far more infrastructure and resources to work with. Its construction efforts are much cheaper and rapid to begin with, in all likelihood.
NecronLord wrote:The idea that you can think it is as difficult to crew a ship with sixty organic crew as it is to crew one with 37000 is quite, quite staggering.
No, its plain and obvious. CIS Ship A may wait around for 500 crew to be trained, and Republic Ship B may wait around for 2000 crew to be trained, but the Republic can easily build the four times the level of training infrastructure to support that with its superior material and infrastructural resources, and has enormous surplus population reserves which are not tapped in any significant manner.
NecronLord wrote:Uhuh. Saxtonian drednoughts are not true warships as much as sector defence ships.
Wrong, dumbass. GRS Quaestor was a Republic Saxtonian battlecruiser destroyed on accidental collision with a Separatist world. The Mandator-class Mark II is a Republic dreadnought.
NecronLord wrote:Is it any surprise that the Trade Federation doesn't field ships of similar size? (Setting aside for now, that these same drednoughts and battlecruisers are mysteriously absent from the defence of Coruscant.)
Argument from ignorance. They exist, the Republic fields them, and one of these pre-Executor dreadnoughts has been seen in one of the recent official SW Tales story.

Why they are not seen at the Battle of Coruscant has precisely jack and shit to do with the fact they exist. I'm sick of little assholes always trying to weasel this "well it wasn't there THIS TIME" shit in order to try and disprove the existance of stuff.

Moreover, again you propose radical and grandiose assertions to multiple posters who have claimed access to important sources that you have not awknowledged, which is pretty presumptious. Once again, Labyrinth of Evil answers this tacitly: the Battle of Coruscant was set-up by Palpatine, who on the heels of Republic progress in the sieges on the Outer Rim, dispatches forces from the Core to press the advantage, leaving Coruscant more vulnerable to attack.

It seems to me you're arguing based on what heavy automation and sensible exploitation of resources would yield, as opposed to what is observed. In this case, the Republic's militarization remains significantly below the self-imposed limits of heavy emphasis and reliance on organic troops, crewmen, and workers with the CIS not pressing this for whatever reason.
NecronLord wrote:1- I haven't read LoE, and have little intention of doing so. The EU annoys me most of the time, and of the Clone Wars books I've tried to read, only Dark Rendevous has held my attention.
Then keep your radical assertions to yourself ahead of people who have access to more information - in front of people who know better than you.
NecronLord wrote:If you're going to say that LoE (ignoring that it is C level, and trumped by the novelisation) contradicts me, please provide quotes. 2 - They don't need to be loosing the war to prove parity - they aren't winning either. The vastly out-resourced CIS is able to hold them off.
I don't own LoE, I've only read it. However, your quotes from the novelisation are not conclusive regarding the progress of the war. They simply lament vague losses on the Republic's part. Nevertheless, the entire plot of LoE (which had LFL help to set up the movie) and thus the premise of RotS depends on the tide moving on the Republic's side.
NecronLord wrote:Offhand, there is Leia's statement that clone wars era warships were far more polluting relative to both Imperial and Rebel ships of the post-Endor era.
From what? And that doesn't mean much; warships generally do not operate ion drives in the atmosphere, and most warships cannot even enter the atmosphere.
NecronLord wrote:It is however evidence that the CIS can make high energy TLs that are equal to those of the Empire. Combined with the evidence of the highly powerful and sophisticated generators of a core ship, it proves that there are no key advances in weapons and energy generation technology between the Clone Wars and the Imperial Era - in other words it proves that the technology needed to defeat the Vong exists in the Confederacy.
Again, I am...
Not disputing that. However, I am disputing your haphazard uberCIS thesis.
NecronLord wrote:What? That the CIS' approach to warfare (IE, droids and automation) is superior to both Vong biotechnological dependance, and the strange insistance on the use of clones and organics in the Empire, as well as their ships which are almost entirely designed for make-work (50 crewers just for a HTL turret? Can there be any question that all those crewmen are unneccessery?) for political reasons (public fear of droids and automation)?
Most of this is biased conjecture about the Republic, and wishful thinking about the CIS: whatever hypothetical extreme advantages they ought to have, they are not exploited in the SW canon and the Republic's militarization remains significantly below the self-imposed thresholds of organic dependence.
NecronLord wrote:Taking on a republic of 50,000,000 planets after starting with something on the order of 10,000 and still being able to induce defeats in the enemy years later sounds pretty damn uber to me, does it not sound uber to you?
Holonet News emphasized that the Separistists had many other symathizers, and the Galactic Republic's sphere of influence is decidably smaller than the Galactic Empire. The frame of action in the canon portrays a Confederacy very rapidly achieving some assemblance of territorial parity with the Republic, and with the major difference of being heavily militarized from the outset.
NecronLord wrote:You would have an argument, if that were the only quote on that matter. It isn't. While I don't have the novellisation on me, I suppose I could produce more quotes by looking past page 2 when I get back home this afternoon.

More to the point, the more I hear about these supposed Republic victories, the more disgusted I am about the brainbugesque illogicality of the idea of Organics being superior to machines.
Too bad, so sad. The CIS does not exploit its apparent advantages. You do forget though, that the Republic monopolizes the best infrastructure and resources in the galaxy. The fact that CIS' shipbuilders include Kessel and that they attempted to acquire Mon Calamari and Rendili ought to tell you something when the Republic's fielding designs by KDY and her subsidiaries.
NecronLord wrote:Drag myself through another EU book simply to win this debate? No thank you, I suggest you quote it.
I don't own it. But its hardly a matter of debate - the entire plot and premise of RotS hinges on this.
NecronLord wrote:Not that it would surprise me that the Republic controls the inner regions. They did after all, start off in control of them. Given the sheer size of the republic compared to the CIS, it is hardly unsurprising that most systems have not been touched by the CIS, but it is surprising that the CIS can win victories when outnumbered five thousand to one in terms of territory. That's like Luxembourg (2,586 sq km) taking on the US (9,629,091 sq km) and winning the battles, despite the US throwing everything at them. It is both a charge against the Republic's ill preparedness, and a validation of CIS tactical thinking.
Again, we don't know the Confederacy's wartime strength, and we don't know the Republic's strength at all. You're speaking on broad conjecture using a single figure and another which isn't applicable at all, and discounting that the circumstancials suggest rough parity through much of the war.
NecronLord wrote:According to Palpatine, and we all know how reliable he is, not many others. The Jedi spend the first half of the book bemoaning their continuous losses.
No shit? The entire point of the war is to kill Jedi. The Jedi have been fighting like idiots as generals at the frontlines like Alexander and been getting cut to pieces. The Jedi have gotten the shit kicked out of them, but the Republic is winning, comparatively. In fact Palpatine uses this as an oppurtunity to suggest to Yoda that totally secular officers ought to begin to replace the Jedi entirely, much to Yoda's chagrin.
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Post by The Original Nex »

For anyone who wanted LoE quotes (emphasis mine):


Gunray and Haako after they are driven off Cato Neimoidia by the Republic:
Labirinth of Evil; pg. 38 wrote: "Count Dooku will help us find new worlds to settle on when the war is won."

"If the war is won, you mean. The Republic seems keen on driving us out of the Galaxy."
Gunray reminising:
Labirinth of Evil; pg. 41 wrote:When the war had been going well, the issue of whom he served had been scarcely a problem. Trade had continued, and the Trade Federation had continued in the black. For a time, it appeared that Sidious and Dooku's dreams of toppling the Republic might succeed after all. But they found themselves facing a worthy opponent in the person of Supreme Chancellor Palpatine...in conjunction with the Jedi [conducted] the war. Slowly, the wheel began to turn, as one Seraratist world after another was retaken by the Republic, and now, Viceroy Nute Gunray himself had been driven from the Core."
I can post other, more conclusive quotes later.
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Post by NecronLord »

Let's see, offhand, on the topic of Saxtonian super-ships. I see nothing definative in that screencap to scale the so called dreadnought, barring wishful thinking. Unless there's a better image of it, I see no reason to assume it is the multi-kilometer behemoth Saxton seems to think it is. Barring the shiloete of a proto-TIE flying in front of it, which would, at a guess, scale it to a minimum of several hundred meters long, I can see no way to scale it.

I will keep my radical assertions to myself when I see quotes, or even, just for you, synopsis, that show why the small CIS taking on the large Republic is not evidence of the overall superiority of the CIS' approach to warfare over the blatant make-work and clone-use of the Republic and Empire. I will conceed, based on trusting your word, something I really shouldn't do, that the Republic was winning the war (contrary to numerous items in the novellisation) against the grossly outnumbered CIS, but this still will not change that the CIS dragging out the war into many years despite the massive advantages held by their enemies is evidence of the relative superiority of the CIS' strategical doctrines.

Now, the Leia bit, about the crash on Honoghr. Her claim that the damage done by the crashed ship would indicate that it was not one that belonged to the Rebels or the Imperials, but something from the Clone Wars is evidence that the Empire has not retained Clone Wars era ships in regular use. This has relevance to the level of GE buildup, and the ability of Clone Wars era forces to compete with the Vong. IOW it's proof that the GE hasn't simply been building ships non stop since the Clone Wars but that it has also been decomissioning some of them.

Yes, warships do regularly use ion drives in the atmosphere. Not least the Acclamators in AotC, in their takeoff on Coruscant.

I would imagine that the GE's Sphere of Influence is somewhat larger than the Galactic Republic's. Thankfully, the 50 million planets figure is from the AotC ICS, not reffering to the Empire at all. I do not forget that the Republic monopolises the best territory. The fact that they were able to fight such a prolonged war against an enemy monopolising all the territorial advantages is evidence of the overall superiority of CIS strategic doctrine.
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Post by The Original Nex »

This is all Saxton says on the Anonymous Star Battlecruiser

He does say it's ">many miles"
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Post by The Original Nex »

Some more quotes:

Palpatine addressing Yoda and Mace:
Labirynth of Evil, pg. 140 wrote:"Master Yoda, far be it from me to lecture someone of your vast experience on the nature of politics. But the truth of the matter is that with the war now exiled to the Outer Rim, we must be judicious about the campaigns we undertake, and about the targets to which we assign our forces."
Exerpts from Palpatine's "State of the Republic" speech:
Labirynth of Evil, pg. 173 wrote:"And so, it is with a heavy heart that I commit two hundred thousand additional troopers to the Outer Rim seiges...though in full confidence that the end of this brutal conflict is now in sight. Cast from the Core, expelled from the Inner Rim and COlonies, driven from the Mid Rim, and soon to be exiled to the spiral arms, the Confederacy will pay a dear price for what they have brought down on our fair house."
Bail, Yoda and Mace talking about Palpatine's address:
Labirynth of Evil, pg. 174 wrote: "Coruscant is already in a celebratory mood. You can practically taste it in the air."

"Premature, any celebration is," Yoda said ruefully.
Mace leaned forward in his chair. "What can Palpatine be thinking-committing half of Coruscant's home force to the Outer Rim sieges?"

"Emboldened Palpatine is, by what we achieved at Belderone."
More to come...
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Post by The Original Nex »

Yoda talking with Palpatine:
Labirynth of Evil, pg. 206 wrote:"To end this war, more we will have to do than defeat Grievous and his army of war machines. More we will have to do than seize remote worlds."

"These Sith to whom you keep referring." Palpatine fell silent in though, then said: "When you were believedkilled at Ithor, Master Windu told me as much."
Yoda makes it clear that the Jedi and Republic are at war with the Sith moreso than the Separatists. Whenever the Jedi talk about losses late in the war, they are talking about the growing power of the Dark Side, not necessarily Separatist victories.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

NecronLord wrote:Let's see, offhand, on the topic of Saxtonian super-ships. I see nothing definative in that screencap to scale the so called dreadnought, barring wishful thinking. Unless there's a better image of it, I see no reason to assume it is the multi-kilometer behemoth Saxton seems to think it is. Barring the shiloete of a proto-TIE flying in front of it, which would, at a guess, scale it to a minimum of several hundred meters long, I can see no way to scale it.
The fact that no vessels of comparable proportions exist other than HIMS Executor is of course irrelevent. There is plenty of circumstancial evidence such as KDY design aesthetic and the omnipresent standardized bridge tower to help determine an appropriate scale.

Based on the bridge tower I would venture a guesstimate that the vessel is at least 8 kilometers from conning tower to bow. If its proportions are similar to Executor, I would expect it to have an overall length around 12 or 13 kilometers. I'm probably underballing though.
Curtis Saxton wrote:These qualitative scaling cues imply that the ship belongs to an Old Republic class of star battleship or star dreadnought that was eventually related to the later Executor.
I guess that he's just delusional and wishful thinking as well. Qualitative clues (disregarding tower scaling) are still more than wishful thinking, your rhetorical gimmicks and nitpickery aside.
NecronLord wrote:I will conceed, based on trusting your word, something I really shouldn't do
Bite me.
NecronLord wrote:Now, the Leia bit, about the crash on Honoghr. Her claim that the damage done by the crashed ship would indicate that it was not one that belonged to the Rebels or the Imperials, but something from the Clone Wars is evidence that the Empire has not retained Clone Wars era ships in regular use.
She's not an expert. A large ship impacting at significant velocity would produce a rather large impact event like that of large asteroid impacts, probably with the added problem of radioactivity. This would consistently cause mass extinction events. There is nothing special about an ISD that would cause this over an Acclamator or Venator, and she's wrong about the cause anyway: it is a defoliant bioweapon spill from a crash-landed core ship.
NecronLord wrote:This has relevance to the level of GE buildup, and the ability of Clone Wars era forces to compete with the Vong. IOW it's proof that the GE hasn't simply been building ships non stop since the Clone Wars but that it has also been decomissioning some of them.
Except she's talking out of her ass, apparently.
NecronLord wrote:Yes, warships do regularly use ion drives in the atmosphere. Not least the Acclamators in AotC, in their takeoff on Coruscant.
Glowing engine cones does not imply the actual use of relativistic ion streams capable of accelerating nigh-kilometer-long trillions-or-more-ton spacecraft at many G.

This is obvious; if the ion drives were actually doing the work, do you have any idea what the result would've looked like in the atmosphere? These's aren't turbofans, buddy.
NecronLord wrote:Thankfully, the 50 million planets figure is from the AotC ICS, not reffering to the Empire at all.
Quote. I've read it extensively and I remember no such thing.
NecronLord wrote:I do not forget that the Republic monopolises the best territory. The fact that they were able to fight such a prolonged war against an enemy monopolising all the territorial advantages is evidence of the overall superiority of CIS strategic doctrine.
Or that the Republic started out behind, without any planning for war, without appreciable militarization, and little more than the Jedi?
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Post by The Original Nex »

Now, the Leia bit, about the crash on Honoghr. Her claim that the damage done by the crashed ship would indicate that it was not one that belonged to the Rebels or the Imperials, but something from the Clone Wars is evidence that the Empire has not retained Clone Wars era ships in regular use. This has relevance to the level of GE buildup, and the ability of Clone Wars era forces to compete with the Vong. IOW it's proof that the GE hasn't simply been building ships non stop since the Clone Wars but that it has also been decomissioning some of them.
A recent Republic Comic explains what happened to Honoghr. Some two years after the Battle of Geonosis a Separatist ship carrying a cargo of trihexalophine1138 was intercepted at Honoghr and shot down. Although every effort was made to remedy the situation, the chemical defoliant was too powerful to stop, and the planet was soon devastated by the contamination.

So, there's nothing inherantly pollutant about pre-Imperial Era ships than there is for more 'modern" vessels. Honoghr was devastated simply because the ship that crashed was carrying a chemical defoliant.
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Post by President Sharky »

The Empire seems quite content in using the Carrack-class light cruiser, Dreadnaught-class heavy cruiser, the Imperator-class Star Destroyer, the Victory-class Star Destroyer, and the Tector-class Star Destroyer. All of which are Clone Wars era designs.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

President Sharky wrote:The Empire seems quite content in using the Carrack-class light cruiser, the Imperial-class Star Destroyer, the Victory-class Star Destroyer, and the Tector-class Star Destroyer. All of which are Clone Wars era designs.
The Tector-class Star Destroyer is not verified to be in use in the Clone Wars era. And its "Imperator-class" ( :wink: ). Also, do not forget the Dreadnaught-class.
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Post by President Sharky »

Ack, old habits die hard. Corrected.

EDIT: Not to mention that the Dreadnaught-class was already considered an aging design by the time of the Clone Wars (Ref: Republic #69), implying that by the time of the GCW, the design may possibly be hundreds of years old. Yet we see them serving in a large numbers in the Outer Rim during the Imperial era.
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Post by NecronLord »

Rather than assuming that is the standard bridge tower of the ISD and Excecutor types, I will assume that it uses the standard globe, but not the standard bridge - due to this bridge being significantly smaller in relation to its globes than the Imperator's. As the globes are 41m wide, we can do some pizel scaling to get the length of the visible portions of the vessel. Sub ISD length. Dreadnought indeed. A republic dreadnought would be at least ten kilometers long. This isn't even close, even if we assume the above scaling to be so innacurate that it's half the length it should be, (I used the 11 pixel figure, so if anything, it's generous.) and that the length of this 'dreadnought' is doubled outside the frame, it's still only into Star Cruiser territory.

Repeat after me. The engines of a warship do not need to be used at full power. As is clearly evidenced by AotC. They were able to use the Ion Engines to boost to orbit without any significant damage to the Coruscant buildings nearby. If they were simply using repulsorlifts alone, the engines would not have been on, would they? Yes. Warship Ion Engines are used in atmosphere. No. They're not used at full power.

Apparently it's actually 40 million worlds. 50 million must be from 'someplace else' - anyway. Quotation:

"...Padmé's lightly populated Chommell Sector, which comprises 36 full member worlds more than 40,000 settled depenancies and 300,000,000 barren stars. With more than 1000 sectors, the galaxy's deceptively fragile harmony..." ~ Page 5, AotC ICS. 40,000,000 is fairly low end.

President Sharkey: Yes indeed. They have no problem using such ships, and such ships have been stated numerous times, (with the exception of the Imperator, which I've never heard of being involved in the clone wars,) to be extensively refitted for the 'modern' galaxy. I'm not, remember, saying that the Empire's starfleet is smaller than the Republic's, nor that there are no republican starship designs in the Imperial Starfleet. Incidentally, what is a Tector when it's at home? A warship named after the latin term for 'plasterer' - as in a guy who makes plaster - seems a bit... odd, Imperator - Cool. Venator (Hunter) - Cool. Tector - :?
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

Our beloved leader Darth Wong posted something about the Tector, I think in one of the Venator threads. Apparently it is also the name of some kind of shield, IIRC. I'll try to find it again.
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

I was close. Our beloved leader actually said:

Try googling the search phrase "roman cavalry tector", and you might find a site indicating that "Tector" is a roman cavalry trooper with a large shield.
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Post by NecronLord »

I believe this was for a trowel shaped/mortar board-ish shield. Something the Starship presumably lacks. Tector most certainly is plasterer. :?

EDIT: Humm. Speculation that it's the bayless ISD, from covered. I can buy that I suppose.
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Post by Companion Cube »

The Original Nex wrote:
A recent Republic Comic explains what happened to Honoghr. Some two years after the Battle of Geonosis a Separatist ship carrying a cargo of trihexalophine1138 was intercepted at Honoghr and shot down. Although every effort was made to remedy the situation, the chemical defoliant was too powerful to stop, and the planet was soon devastated by the contamination.
Hah. :D THX-1138
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