Sith Lightning debate- heavy spoilers

[Connor MacLeod]

I did not make this up; its stated in the official notes accompanying the trade paperback of Dark Empire.

FLESH DOES NOT EASILY SUPPORT THIS POWER

...

And his Dark Side [sic] powers, combined with the most sophisticated military technology ever known, game him the strenght to vanquish his most dangerous opponents: the thousands of Jedi Knights, guardians of justice throughout the galaxy.

But early on, Palpatine learn that addiction to the fathomless energies of the Dark Side [sic] carroed a great price: age and physical decay hastened their pace, and his body collapsed toward ruin, like a world oppressed.

....

THE CLONING OF ABSOLUTE MALEVOLENCE

...

On a hidden world, deep in the Galactic Core, Palpatine prepare a genetic clone of himself, and raised this clone to young manhood.

At the moment when his diseased and crippled flesh could no longer sustain itself, he moved, as mind and formless energy, into the youthful replica!

Being a clone, the new vessel was a step removed from the life-sustaining protection of the Force - and more vulnerable to the depredations of the Dark Side [sic]. As a result, The Emperor's [sic] new body would age even more rapidly than the old, and within a few years it too would become corrupted and useless. [emphasis mine]

Sounds more like quasi-mystical nonsense to me than a valid reason.

Besides which, that was because the clones were sabotaged by the Emperor's physician (as per Crimson Empire.), not because Force-sensitive clones in general are flawed.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Sounds more like quasi-mystical nonsense to me than a valid reason

Any worse than human flesh and bone warping, and eyes changing color, in real time? Preytell, what constitutes a "valid reason" when we're talking about the use of the evil end of a mystical energy field causing the superphysical deterioration of a human body?

I didn't realize we discounted official evidence because it has a quasi-mystical tone. It says clones are more vulnerable to decay because of the dark side, and fall apart more quickly. I'll take it at face value.

Besides which, that was because the clones were sabotaged by the Emperor's physician (as per Crimson Empire.), not because Force-sensitive clones in general are flawed.

No, its not. The clone in Dark Empire II/Empire's End deteriorated well inside a year, perhaps in six months. The clones described in Vietch's notes lasted years. Jax did not pay off the Constable until after Dark Empire (the other half of the plot was the murder of all the remaining healthy clones which were older than the Constable's sabotage as seen in the opening of Dark Empire II).

Anyway, Dark Empire clearly states that clone bodies deteriorate more quickly than the original body when it comes to the depredation of the dark side - that they are more vulnerable than natural bodies. So my point was, even if they retcon the dark side decay of Palpatine's original body (which I think is still viable in harmonization), they decay of the clones can still stand on its own because of this fact.

[Illuminatus Primus]

This doesn't have to be taken literally - that is, that the size lightning is literally disfiguring and damaging his face - rather that the lighting is breaking through the visage he was keeping up.

This, incidentally, was the idea I was getting at. I find it less goofy than facial flesh and bone warping in real time.

[Vympel]

Just a note IP about Palpatine and being able to achieve immortality- Palpatine admits in the script he doens't have the knowledge yet- but that he and Anakin can discover it together.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Just a note IP about Palpatine and being able to achieve immortality- Palpatine admits in the script he doens't have the knowledge yet- but that he and Anakin can discover it together.

The rest of the canon suggests Palpatine consistently failed to achieve this.

Treachery is the way of the Sith. The clincher that lead to Anakin's fall was a promise that would never be realized.

[Vympel]

Too bad they didn't have a Goa'uld Sarcophagus on hand ... of course that has the side-effect of destroying your soul after repeated use, but *meh*. I'm still toying with the idea of a Stargate SG-1/Star Wars fanfic (the former being my second favorite, having knocked B5 out of second place last year) where Vader post-suit uses one to restore himself to something more resembling his full power (depending on whether his limbs can grow back or not, but either way it'd definitely repair his fucked up internal organs lungs etc).

[His Divine Shadow]

But he's lying. He doesn't actually have it. Even by Dark Empire, he envisions a perfect body subsumed in the dark side of the Force and fully immortal, but relies on shitty clones because he is unable to realize this.

Yoda affirms that the only kind of immortality - spiritual immortality is only capable through the light side of the Force.

He claims his master had achieved the secret to immortality, unfortunately palpy the big schmuck that he is killed him before he was taught the process to it's fullest.

[His Divine Shadow]

I'm not arguing that, but that's not what happens when you get blasted with energy in the face. Its a corruption of the Force destroying flesh from within; the principle of which Snyder denies should be seen in the canon, even though, if anything, ROTS locks in precisely the effects the dark side has on living flesh, albeit intensified and much accelerated into a small frame.

How does Exar Kun fit into this? You know, using the dark side to actually heal his body, one of the most powerfull dark lords of all time and not suffering any bodily degredation from it?

He also achieved this immortal spiritual thing I believe since his spirit remained conscious after his death and even took over Kyp Durron.

Maybe he just had a better knowledge about the dark side than palpy?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

How does Exar Kun fit into this? You know, using the dark side to actually heal his body, one of the most powerfull dark lords of all time and not suffering any bodily degredation from it?

There's nothing that says that the Dark Side cannot heal people. I suppose Exar Kun is using the dark side to alter physical reality, and trying to stay ahead of the corrosive effects of the Dark Side. As to whether he can achieve full immortality on this, or just extend his life a good deal, I don't know.

He also achieved this immortal spiritual thing I believe since his spirit remained conscious after his death and even took over Kyp Durron.

Maybe he just had a better knowledge about the dark side than palpy?

That's not much of an immortality, if you can't move three inches from where you died.

[Illuminatus Primus]

How does Exar Kun fit into this? You know, using the dark side to actually heal his body, one of the most powerfull dark lords of all time and not suffering any bodily degredation from it?

He also recieved help from the spirit of a Dark Lord of the Sith, a Sith amulet, and any of the help from the other surviving Dark Lords (he was on Korriban).

He also achieved this immortal spiritual thing I believe since his spirit remained conscious after his death and even took over Kyp Durron.

No, because he just shoved his spirit into a temple. A variant of the Life Transfer power, he just anchored his spirit to a physical object instead of another body.

[Connor MacLeod]

Any worse than human flesh and bone warping, and eyes changing color, in real time? Preytell, what constitutes a "valid reason" when we're talking about the use of the evil end of a mystical energy field causing the superphysical deterioration of a human body?

We know excessive Force-usage can weaken or otherwise rapidly destroy any organic entity (other examples include Dorsk 81 in Darksaber, for example.) There is no logical reason whatsoever to believe clones would be more vulnerable to this decay any more than a normal body would, however.

By the way, the "human flesh and bone warping" bit is observed, visual, FACTUAL evidence (much as a clawdite's shapeshifting ability.) This is not the same as dialogue or text, particularily that that couches itself in suspiciously religious overtones.

I didn't realize we discounted official evidence because it has a quasi-mystical tone. It says clones are more vulnerable to decay because of the dark side, and fall apart more quickly. I'll take it at face value.

Jedi and other force users are no less religious/mystical orders than any other religion in real life. Why should we take their quasi-religious beliefs as if its absolute fact? Would you also argue that simply because the jedi believe Anakin was an immaculate concecption that he actually WAS, or that this prophecy actually exists? What about Qui-Gon's discussion of Midi-cholorians with Anakin in TPM (which is couched rather heavily in quasi-mystical phrasing.) Consider, as a real life analogy, how are religious or mystical texts like the Koran, ,Talmud, or Bible treated.
Questioning dialogue or text on the basis of religious belief or bias is just as valid as questioning it on the basis of a person's technical or scientific incompetence.

No, its not. The clone in Dark Empire II/Empire's End deteriorated well inside a year, perhaps in six months. The clones described in Vietch's notes lasted years. Jax did not pay off the Constable until after Dark Empire (the other half of the plot was the murder of all the remaining healthy clones which were older than the Constable's sabotage as seen in the opening of Dark Empire II).

The difference in "time" can easily be attrirbuted to either differences in Force usage (greater usage at some points would result in greater deterioration than at others as much as by the defects the clone master/physician engineered into the clones (he sabotaged more than one clone according to DE and the EC, BTW) Do you have specific evidence pointing towards particular timeframes that you seem to be claiming exist?

Besides, sabotage (by Jax or by others) is only one such potential factor. What about existing damage (from the Force or other sources), such as Palpatine's fight with Windu (where he suffered the injuries.) If the original "source" is already damaged, accelerated decay might be attributed to that. Problems might also occur due to the incompetence of the cloners or with problems/errors in the cloning method (The progressively increasing madness of the Palpatine clones can be attributed to problems in the methodology, especially over repeated attempts.)

Anyway, Dark Empire clearly states that clone bodies deteriorate more quickly than the original body when it comes to the depredation of the dark side - that they are more vulnerable than natural bodies.

By stating clones are "one step away from the protection of the Force" or some other such nonsensical BS. Hardly a statement that provides any sort of reasonable or logical explanation.

So my point was, even if they retcon the dark side decay of Palpatine's original body (which I think is still viable in harmonization), they decay of the clones can still stand on its own because of this fact.

You're assuming some quasi-religious statement means the same thing as scientific fact. By this logic, Jedi Twins and clones (like Dorsk 81) should *also* be vulnerable to high-end Force usage (or someone like C'baoth, for example.) There is no logical reason we know of for why a clone should be more vulnerable to the side effects of excessive Force usage compared to any other organic being. (As a side note, we also have "Force users" who appear to succumb to the degeneration more quickly than clones do - the Nightsisters are an obvious example.)

[Illuminatus Primus]

We know excessive Force-usage can weaken or otherwise rapidly destroy any organic entity (other examples include Dorsk 81 in Darksaber, for example.) There is no logical reason whatsoever to believe clones would be more vulnerable to this decay any more than a normal body would, however.

By the way, the "human flesh and bone warping" bit is observed, visual, FACTUAL evidence (much as a clawdite's shapeshifting ability.) This is not the same as dialogue or text, particularily that that couches itself in suspiciously religious overtones.

Suspicion is not enough to cast away explicit statements. Clones are supposed to be more vulnerable to ravages of the dark side; problems with clones and the Force are probably why it isn't as simple as mass-produced clone Force-sensitives or clone limb replacement for Vader.

Jedi and other force users are no less religious/mystical orders than any other religion in real life. Why should we take their quasi-religious beliefs as if its absolute fact? Would you also argue that simply because the jedi believe Anakin was an immaculate concecption that he actually WAS, or that this prophecy actually exists? What about Qui-Gon's discussion of Midi-cholorians with Anakin in TPM (which is couched rather heavily in quasi-mystical phrasing.) Consider, as a real life analogy, how are religious or mystical texts like the Koran, ,Talmud, or Bible treated.
Questioning dialogue or text on the basis of religious belief or bias is just as valid as questioning it on the basis of a person's technical or scientific incompetence.

Except Palpatine's mature clones are aged in their late teens. Palpatine assumed a clone before A New Hope. Palpatine was already ancient and decrepit again in The Empire Strikes Back. The time from a few years before ANH to TESB is less than that from his actual youth to post-ROTS. Palpatine assumed a clone body 1 year after Endor. He is ancient and decrepit in Dark Empire. The time from ROTJ + 1 year to DE is less than the period he degenerated as an original body, for certain. Therefore, the clones age faster than original bodies.

If you want to argue that the mystical "why" is wrong, fine, I have no problem with that. But its plainly apparent that the clones are not as durable as the original article.

The difference in "time" can easily be attrirbuted to either differences in Force usage (greater usage at some points would result in greater deterioration than at others as much as by the defects the clone master/physician engineered into the clones (he sabotaged more than one clone according to DE and the EC, BTW) Do you have specific evidence pointing towards particular timeframes that you seem to be claiming exist?

I just did above.

Besides, the religious couching of the language ought to be doubted as attributing a realistic cause. However, its plainly obvious that clone bodies do not fare as well as the original body. I don't see why you would throw out an entire canonical remark couched solely on the fact that you do not see any particular reason why clones should last less time. Well they do. You need explicit contradiction or good reason to believe something is a fable.

Besides, sabotage (by Jax or by others) is only one such potential factor. What about existing damage (from the Force or other sources), such as Palpatine's fight with Windu (where he suffered the injuries.) If the original "source" is already damaged, accelerated decay might be attributed to that. Problems might also occur due to the incompetence of the cloners or with problems/errors in the cloning method (The progressively increasing madness of the Palpatine clones can be attributed to problems in the methodology, especially over repeated attempts.)

All ad hoc reasoning. I don't see why I should prefer over the simple official fact that clones decay more rapidly than naturally-born humans. As for the cause, of this tendency, if you throw off "removed from the life-giving properties of the Force" because its religious crap, I can see that. But why the simple fact ought to be discouraged in favor of unstated conjecture and speculation, I do not agree with.

By stating clones are "one step away from the protection of the Force" or some other such nonsensical BS. Hardly a statement that provides any sort of reasonable or logical explanation.

There's OBVIOUSLY more to the Force than pure genetics and biology. It runs in family's mystically, but is not genetic. Care to explain that one?

I do not see why we need a solid explanation for why they last not as long. If its official, than its official. We may conjecture why, but I'm not going to prefer speculation over the stated fact.

You're assuming some quasi-religious statement means the same thing as scientific fact. By this logic, Jedi Twins and clones (like Dorsk 81) should *also* be vulnerable to high-end Force usage (or someone like C'baoth, for example.) There is no logical reason we know of for why a clone should be more vulnerable to the side effects of excessive Force usage compared to any other organic being. (As a side note, we also have "Force users" who appear to succumb to the degeneration more quickly than clones do - the Nightsisters are an obvious example.)

I said, its simply stated. If I had to conjur an explanation myself, I would say that the Spaarti method produces humans which are diseased or otherwise flawed, if only incrementally. Perhaps its very difficult to counteract aging problems with artificial cloning (we see this with fertilizing eggs with cells that have adult ages in our own primitive cloning technology) of adults, or especially adult humans. Dorsk 81 might have faired better because his species is particularly suited either naturally or by modification toward compatibility with artificial cloning or because his civilization utilizes superior cloning technology to the Galactic Empire/Republic/New Republic.

[Sephirius]

Everyone seems to be overanalysing this whole thing. It is obvious from both the clone wars cartoon and the OT that force lightning does not make a person 'decay' as some of you are implying. first of all, Sidious always appears in his darkside form when dealing with Dooku and Asajj. Second, if lightning does this to something it hits, wouldn't Luke look like Palpatine after the thorough thrashing he got in ROTJ?

It's plain to see that the 'Sidious' face is his true form, and that the Palpatine face is his facade.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Everyone seems to be overanalysing this whole thing. It is obvious from both the clone wars cartoon and the OT that force lightning does not make a person 'decay' as some of you are implying. first of all, Sidious always appears in his darkside form when dealing with Dooku and Asajj. Second, if lightning does this to something it hits, wouldn't Luke look like Palpatine after the thorough thrashing he got in ROTJ?

It's plain to see that the 'Sidious' face is his true form, and that the Palpatine face is his facade.

Wait...what?

He's all wrinkly and decrepit in the Clone Wars? You see his face?

[Connor MacLeod]

Suspicion is not enough to cast away explicit statements. Clones are supposed to be more vulnerable to ravages of the dark side; problems with clones and the Force are probably why it isn't as simple as mass-produced clone Force-sensitives or clone limb replacement for Vader.

Its not an "explicit statement" - its a vague appeal to some unknown mechanism in order to explain away a blatantly nonsensical statement. There are numerous occasions when dialogue or text has to be dismissed on the grounds of such implausibility.

Except Palpatine's mature clones are aged in their late teens. Palpatine assumed a clone before A New Hope.

Palpatine was already ancient and decrepit again in The Empire Strikes Back. The time from a few years before ANH to TESB is less than that from his actual youth to post-ROTS. Palpatine assumed a clone body 1 year after Endor. He is ancient and decrepit in Dark Empire. The time from ROTJ + 1 year to DE is less than the period he degenerated as an original body, for certain. Therefore, the clones age faster than original bodies.

And of course, we'll ignore the fact that excessive Force usage can accelerate the decay of an individual regardless of whether or not the clones are "defective" or not. Its not as if this little fact doesnt allow for some pretty wide variance in the lifespan of his original (or clone) bodies.

It can also be pointed out that according to the EC Palpy could not have started this process until AFTER ROTS) this means he could have at most assumed a "second" body a few years prior to ANH (if even that far back.), which certainly reintroduces the "deliberate sabotage" factor.

(and technically,
If you want to argue that the mystical "why" is wrong, fine, I have no problem with that. But its plainly apparent that the clones are not as durable as the original article.

Fine then. Please propose a mechanism by which a clone could be more vulnerable to the Force than a non-clone, since both technically are organic life forms that should exist in the Force.

I just did above.

I asked for references, not claims. (As in, which book you pull a given claim from.)

Besides, the religious couching of the language ought to be doubted as attributing a realistic cause. However, its plainly obvious that clone bodies do not fare as well as the original body. I don't see why you would throw out an entire canonical remark couched solely on the fact that you do not see any particular reason why clones should last less time. Well they do. You need explicit contradiction or good reason to believe something is a fable.

And lacking a sound, logical or even scientific reason for a disparity between the durability of a clone and non-clone body (as well as comparisons to OTHER Dark-siders, including at least one Clone.) is not sufficient reason?

All ad hoc reasoning. I don't see why I should prefer over the simple official fact that clones decay more rapidly than naturally-born humans. As for the cause, of this tendency, if you throw off "removed from the life-giving properties of the Force" because its religious crap, I can see that. But why the simple fact ought to be discouraged in favor of unstated conjecture and speculation, I do not agree with.

See above. There is NO plausible mechanism I can think of or discover from other people (and I've been asking around) to reasonably explain WHY a clone is less durable than a non-clone body.

There's OBVIOUSLY more to the Force than pure genetics and biology. It runs in family's mystically, but is not genetic. Care to explain that one?

Sure. If the Forcec is a sentient entity, then it might deliberately choose to favor certain "families" with force-sensitive offspring. It could be caused by a subconcsious desire or belief (of an individual or of the population of the galaxy linked through the Force as a whole) that triggers this. Or, it could be attributed to long ago experimentation that resulted in certain "families" with this peculiar trait.

I do not see why we need a solid explanation for why they last not as long. If its official, than its official. We may conjecture why, but I'm not going to prefer speculation over the stated fact.

Canon/official hierarchy is invariably subordinate to logic and science, otherwise there is going to be little point in doing analysis. This is little better than saying "well George says so, or the person onscreen says so, so it must be true, no matter whether or not it makes sense or not!"

I said, its simply stated. If I had to conjur an explanation myself, I would say that the Spaarti method produces humans which are diseased or otherwise flawed, if only incrementally. Perhaps its very difficult to counteract aging problems with artificial cloning (we see this with fertilizing eggs with cells that have adult ages in our own primitive cloning technology) of adults, or especially adult humans. Dorsk 81 might have faired better because his species is particularly suited either naturally or by modification toward compatibility with artificial cloning or because his civilization utilizes superior cloning technology to the Galactic Empire/Republic/New Republic.

I already specified human error/problems in the cloning method (citing Palpatine's madness as possible corroboration.)

[Illuminatus Primus]

Look, all I'm trying to establish is affirmation that Palpatine's clone bodies were not as durable nor lived as long - for whatever reason - as his naturally born one.

As it happens, a very likely possibility occured to me - Palpatine did not begin his program until well after ROTS. He's already aged, diseased, and damaged; it could be possible that the cell samples available for cloning were already degraded as a result of the state of his original body at that point.

[Crown]

Look, all I'm trying to establish is affirmation that Palpatine's clone bodies were not as durable nor lived as long - for whatever reason - as his naturally born one.

As it happens, a very likely possibility occured to me - Palpatine did not begin his program until well after ROTS. He's already aged, diseased, and damaged; it could be possible that the cell samples available for cloning were already degraded as a result of the state of his original body at that point.

Now that makes the most perfect sense.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Wait...what?

He's all wrinkly and decrepit in the Clone Wars? You see his face?

Yeah, he is. You see the bottom portion of Sideous' face in the cartoon, and it's different from Palpatine's.

[Connor MacLeod]

Look, all I'm trying to establish is affirmation that Palpatine's clone bodies were not as durable nor lived as long - for whatever reason - as his naturally born one.

Increased Force usage could easily account for this. Palpatine is undisputably the most powerful and most high-end of Force users in Star Wars - at least later on. Progressively greater usage or application of the Force (such as say Force storms) could contribute to his accelerated decay after the fact. If you constantly and continually expend yourself like that (or even attempt to test or push your limits), such damage will invariably occur (again, the Dorsk 81 example.)

By contrast, much more minimal Force usage probably minimizes or eliminates the probable deterioration (since the relationship between power level and deterioration is not fixed, the actual "quantity" of power required before deteroiration starts will vary - again the Nightsisters.) and thus the "life-span" of a clone would be extended (C'baoth, despite being an obvious Dark-sider, probably did not require any MAJOR or serious sustained Dark-side efforts, and could easily have avoided the deterioration as a result. Of course, once he started going high-end, he started to deteriorate - his madness increased notably the longer he'd been helping Thrawn.)

Palpatine, who later on was able to destroy entire capital ships (or fleets of capital ships) as well as affect the minds of a larrge perceentage of Coruscant, is peforming feats far above what most could possibly accomplish, and given the fact he did not simply use such abilities casually suggests there were undesirable consequences, such as the increased deterioration (even though he's clearly got the powers of other Force-sensitive lackeys and minions to draw upon, as well as the life-forces of other individuals...)

As it happens, a very likely possibility occured to me - Palpatine did not begin his program until well after ROTS. He's already aged, diseased, and damaged; it could be possible that the cell samples available for cloning were already degraded as a result of the state of his original body at that point.

Yes, I believe I covered that above as well (in referring to the Windu/Palpatine fight in ROTS.)

[Steven Snyder]

I have been away too long it seems...

I will look at this but it seems clear that in Chapter 21, Palpatine stops Vader from dying by "forcing his will upon him".

And that's inconsistent with normal Force-fed healing abilities? That doesn't mean he could make on immortal. No limit fallacy.

Force-healing? We are talking about someone who has lost all his limbs and has severe burns all over his body. Palpatine didn't 'heal' him, Vader was as broken then as he was in the suit. Palpatine just "Stopped Death" that exact power he said he learned from his master.

It is no coincidence that Vader died just after Palpatine, that he was fine until he killed the Emperor.

The denial is obvious to anyone who is watching the movie. The body that Palpatine is using in RoTS is disfigured due to a fight with Mace, the body he his inhabiting in RoTJ looks nearly identical.

I disagree. I think he lookes worse in ROTJ. Care to conclusively and objectively prove that?

Thank you for helping me prove my argument, you have just said that he looks worse with time. His injuries from the fight with Mace are intact, and he shows clear sign of aging. This is exactly what you would expect.

It isn't degeneration you are looking at when you see the ruined face of Palpatine, you are seeing tissue damage from a fight. The movies make this absolutely clear.

The literalist interpretation is poor; real life electical or other burn damage DOES NOT lead to those effects.

The only possible explanation is superphysical damage caused by the Force, so to throw out the concept of dark side-caused decay is rather hypocritical.

Not at all. We have seen Force Lightning, we have seen it's generation, and effects on a living creature. We have NOT seen darkside degeneration onscreen, what was presumed to be DD, has been shown to be the result of a feedback loop of Force Lightning.

If he had used a clone, he wouldn't be disfigured in RoTJ.

I don't like pricks with agendas. Especially when said pricks don't check the source they desperately want to trash before they go off on their little dream.

It is fortunate that I don't really care what you like. Pretty sad that you resort to personal attacks on me.

The DESB itself says that clones are further removed from the life-protecting properties of the Force and are far more vulnerable to damage from the dark side than a natural body. Even if NO OTHER DAMAGE OCCURS to the original body other than age, the canon still accounts for the dark side-caused decay in the clones.

Yeah I have that book that you foolishly presume I haven't read.
You see, you aren't looking at DECAY, you are looking at WOUNDS. Wounds that occured from a very specific circumstance. These injuries have NEVER been seen on any other Sith in the movies.

The hell I can't. Darth Sidious/Palpatine appeared in 5 of the 6 films and in none of them he showed any evidence of this deterioration. In fact the progression of his body seems quite consistent.

Your point being? You're using an image from 20 years before Yavin and one three and one four years after to disprove the accounted-for taking of a clone body years before Yavin. Newsflash dipshit: that's not a representative sample. Not only does the new TESB Palpatine not look that much like the ROTJ Palpatine (and I lamented this when we found out), but those two instances are too close together to disprove the decay of a body on the scale of many years, starting before Yavin.

Newflash dipshit.
EVERY movie he has been shown in shows a CLEAR, CONSISTENT, and REASONABLE progression in age.
The TESB Palpatine looks exactly how I would expect he would appear, given his appearance years later in ROTJ. Same visible injuries, same aged appearance.

Right....and I assume Mace Windu jumped out of a grave to replay the same fight that disfigured him so that his new clone body would show the exact signs of the same battle?

No, the original body was damaged by the extraphysical effects of the dark side, he continued to age and grow in power, further aging and harming himself, and then he assumed a clone body (verified) which suffered dark side decay even without the initiating damage because clones are removed from the Force and vulnerable to degeneration caused by using the dark side (verified).

This would be the third time I've stated that the canon accounts for the unique vulnerability suffered by clones, and you just continue to ignore it. What a piece of shit.

You done whining yet kiddo?
How many times have I shown you clear and consistent aging through the movies that would NOT be happening if there were clones in the picture?

You can keep throwing up excuses, and you can keep denying the events of ROTS. But the clear point is that the reason that Palpatine looks the way he does is from the fight with Mace. Not some fabled Darkside Degeneration, that has no place in the films anywhere.

You do realize that Palpatine was an older man and 20 years had gone by?

Isn't it your position he achieved immortality?

My position is that he has learned how to stave off death.

SW science allows people to people age comfortably into their 150s. Palpatine's further aging can be taken as evidence of further dark side decay, and harmonization is always a first resort to contradiction. So I'm right, again.

Funny, Count Dooku was in his 70's in ROTS and he was an exhausted old man. He lamented that his body wasn't what it used to be and he looked forward to a nice long duration of captivity.

And as to the second part of your statement, I assume the Christians are right when they 'harmonize' evolution as part of gods plan?

Except I'm not a dishonest little shit who is armtwisting canon policy and the whole body of evidence in a clear agenda to discount evidence which you already disliked before.

You see that is where we disagree kiddo. I don't give a rat's ass about the sacred tenets of "Canon" touting it around with a holier-than-thou attitude.

Anakin saw the Emperor's skin melt like oil and his bones warp and deform. We are talking about some very serious physical damage here.

Its also very figurative. Palpatine makes a bunch of references like "the mask becomes the man" and so on and so forth. And besides, real electrical burn damage and actual "skin flowing like oil and bones warping" is not commiserate with anything actually observed. The last thing you want to search for is a highly literalist bit there, because I guaren-fucking-tee you if you get struck with lightning in the face, you won't look like that.

No, there is no figurative meaning behind any of the description of the fight. Palpatine's comments about himself after the fight have no relevance to anything that occured during the fight.

[Darwin]

SW science allows people to people age comfortably into their 150s. Palpatine's further aging can be taken as evidence of further dark side decay, and harmonization is always a first resort to contradiction. So I'm right, again.

Funny, Count Dooku was in his 70's in ROTS and he was an exhausted old man. He lamented that his body wasn't what it used to be and he looked forward to a nice long duration of captivity.

Just curious now, is Dooku's age stated anywhere in the novelizations or other sources, or are you just going by the fact that Christopher Lee is in his 70's? Is there any reason that Dooku couldn't have been into the triple digits?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Lee was actually around 79-80 when AotC was filmed. Also, I think it's been confirmed that Dooku himself was also around 80 years old.

[Connor MacLeod]

Not at all. We have seen Force Lightning, we have seen it's generation, and effects on a living creature. We have NOT seen darkside degeneration onscreen, what was presumed to be DD, has been shown to be the result of a feedback loop of Force Lightning.

Why can't the lightning be an example of the side effects of excessive Force usage? Its not unreasonable to assume that the Force complies to science much in the same way SW technology does - this means it is subject to recoil, thermodynamics, etc. In this context, the "deterioration" is from the inefficiencies associated with using the Forcee. For a certain amount of force/energy applies (or its equivalent where the more "intangible' results are concerned.), there is going to be a certain amount of "loss" that would more than likely affect the user him/herself.

What's more, there's no reason this decay can't take more than one form - it might result in burn damage (like Dorsk 81 channeling too much energy.), tissue deterioration/decay, or even madness (as C'baoth demonstates - he becomes progressively more insane as a result of using mind-control powers.) The ability to limit, resist, or repair this damage could be directly related to the person's skills as well as to the level of power being employed (greater feats such as a "Force Storm" could involve such levels of energy that even the "leakage" due to inefficiency invariably has harmful side effects.)

Moreover, the greater emphasis on emotional/irrational "tapping" of the Force (anger, fear, etc.) meshes with this nicely - an emotionally-charged "tapping" of the Force could not only result in greater power, but also greater loss of self-control. By contrast, a Jedi's method, while not so spectacular, still allows them to retain grreater discipline, and thus to more efficnetly tap into the Force than a Darksider of equal skill would.

This would also explain why only Experienced jedi might tap the Dark side, ,and even then only under certain situations and infrequently (they can repair the damage and probably have better contrtol, but prolonged usage like say Palpatine would ultimately lead to the same consequences.)

[His Divine Shadow]

I personally like the feedback loop idea for the lightning, I think it's really absurd that just shooting lightning albeit very intensly like that should do that to ones face.

Unless solid solid proof against it is presented I will take it as truth.

[Connor MacLeod]

I personally like the feedback loop idea for the lightning, I think it's really absurd that just shooting lightning albeit very intensly like that should do that to ones face.

Unless solid solid proof against it is presented I will take it as truth.

Palpy is more than likely attmepting to shield/dissipate the lightning attack. One could presume he is succeeding in doing so, but the force-usage required in order to stop it is having its own undesirable side effects (hence the deterioration.)