Arrest Scene(SPOILERS!)

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-05-22 02:29pm

Part of it is that Mace Windu's style of combat verges close to the Dark Side. Mace is to some extent drawing on powers that Palpatine's rarified shrouding ability doesn't effect. Fortunately for the galaxy, Yoda does not get nearly as angry when he fights.

Sriad · Post by **Sriad** » 2005-05-22 02:29pm

NecronLord wrote:
Sriad wrote:I feel that Sideous' precog was working well enough that he could tell, at the least, "Windu's mind tells me that a second from now I will be alive; I can continue my ruse."

Yeah. The thing is, the precog isn't perfect. This overconfidence, is after all, what got him killed. There was always the risk that the precog was wrong and that Mace would push the saber through his head and not switch it off until the entire office smelt of boiled sith brain.

Maybe it got him killed in RotJ because it had always worked so well before?

But I do need to head out now. TTFN.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2005-05-22 04:06pm

Rye wrote:I saw it as the other way around when he was fighting Yoda, like if Yoda had said "Around, turn this ship, fuck up the Sith Lord I will," instead of "go into exile I must," he could've finished Palpatine off.

ROTS novel:

Finally he[Yoda] saw the truth.
This truth; that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerfull foe the darkness had ever known...
Just-
didn't-
have it.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-05-22 05:02pm

Perhaps we can't keep considering this in terms of the usual theatrical and dramatic "strength levels", where when someone is "stronger" from the plot's point of view, he always wins.

Perhaps Mace's skill with the lightsaber truly is superior to Palpatine's. Perhaps Yoda might have beaten Palpatine in the confrontation if it wasn't for the factors beyond either of their control, such as terrain and timing, as well as the decisions the combatants make in that particular event.

However, I agree that Palpatine was holding back after he was disarmed. It looked as though Mace was having trouble resisting the lightning with his lightsaber.. if Palpatine had used his "UNLIMITED POWER!!!!11" lightning, it might well have knocked Mace over.

The "old and weak" stuff was to ensure the Chosen One turns to his side, instead of entering the room and turning on him. This is extremely important: possibly the difference between being struck down by Anakin right there in that room, versus having things end up the way they did.

Edit:
Some other confrontations would support my idea that Lucas doesn't subscribe to the simple character "strength level" idea.
Dooku states that Yoda and him could not resolve their fight through a test of their knowledge of a Force, hence the test of skill with a lightsaber. Obi-Wan also beats Anakin despite being a "weaker" Jedi, because of Anakin's poor and arrogant decision to charge.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2005-05-22 06:01pm

I interpret the Yoda quote to mean that Yoda wasn't mentally prepared to defeat Palpatine. He is the eldest of the "old" Jedi, and all his life he has trained the Jedi to fight a type of war that the Sith have long since abandoned. The revelation that he let the Jedi become so dogmatic

The biggest mistake Windu made was to leave Anakin behind. If Anakin had been one of the Jedi who tried to arrest Palpatine, it would have been much more difficult for Palpatine to tempt Anakin, since Anakin would have attacked him. Wankatine or no, you don't throw a match with both the Chosen One and Mace Windu and expect to survive unscathed.

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2005-05-22 06:09pm

Darth Yoshi wrote:The biggest mistake Windu made was to leave Anakin behind. If Anakin had been one of the Jedi who tried to arrest Palpatine, it would have been much more difficult for Palpatine to tempt Anakin, since Anakin would have attacked him. Wankatine or no, you don't throw a match with both the Chosen One and Mace Windu and expect to survive unscathed.

Seriouslly, what was up with that... You hounestly think, knowing Anakins pasty, he's NOT going to disobey you and follow along?

If your worried about his loyality, why WOULDN"T you want him to come along to see in person Palpatines evil?

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2005-05-22 06:51pm

Crossroads Inc. wrote:
Darth Yoshi wrote:The biggest mistake Windu made was to leave Anakin behind. If Anakin had been one of the Jedi who tried to arrest Palpatine, it would have been much more difficult for Palpatine to tempt Anakin, since Anakin would have attacked him. Wankatine or no, you don't throw a match with both the Chosen One and Mace Windu and expect to survive unscathed.
Seriouslly, what was up with that... You hounestly think, knowing Anakins pasty, he's NOT going to disobey you and follow along?

If your worried about his loyality, why WOULDN"T you want him to come along to see in person Palpatines evil?

indeed it was this poor decision that Killed Mace, not Palpatines "uber" darkside power.

Mace had Palpatine beat and only the intervention of Anakin saved Palpatine. Was Palpy faking weakness. somewhat

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2005-05-22 07:37pm

Death from the Sea wrote:
Mace had Palpatine beat and only the intervention of Anakin saved Palpatine. Was Palpy faking weakness. somewhat

If you seriously believe he wasn't faking that "I'm so weak..." stuff, then you should rewatch it. It's obvious that is as much an illusion as his normal face. You all assume Mace was close to winning anyway. Given Sidious matched him in the fight until, rather coincidentally, Anakin arrives and the fact that Palpatine was dead certain Anakin would sympathise, if only to save the only one who could help his Padmé, Sidious had the upper hand all the time. Pure power simply doesn't match power AND guile.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-05-22 08:29pm

An important factor is the "face of Sidious" comment in the novelization- odd that he would refer to such disfigurement as belonging to his true self, wouldn't it?

I need to check the script ...

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-05-22 09:27pm

I took it at face value: Mace beat the shit out of Palpatine and was going to kill him. The tragedy of 'so close to saving the galaxy' wouldn't be there otherwise - and later, on the second Death Star, Anakin makes the right decision.

Ironically, rather than make Mace look good it makes those three other Jedi look like fucking idiots. I particularly enjoyed Mr 'stab me, oh baby I love it, stab me good' and Mr 'I could guard, but I want to die, honest'.

The huge baseball swing seems risky on Mace's part: but he got his sabre in the way of the lightening earlier. Sans Anakin, Palpy was toast. Arguably Palpy would've sensed if the turn was failing and just moved/escaped, so the question is moot. If Anakin HADN'T been totally manipulated and prepped for the turn, Palpy would never have put himself there in the first place.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2005-05-22 09:57pm

You people are over-estimating Palpatine and under estimating Mace. The reason that Palpatine got so far was because, plain and simple, the Jedi Council is filled with a bunch of arrogant bastards. Seriously, when they're on their way to Palpatine's office Mace must have laid out the plan like this:
"We're going to barge into the room, tell that mo'fo that we're the Jedi Council and we're going to arrest him, and then ignite our Light-sabers."
"But, Mace, what if he attacks us?"
"We're the mother-fuckin' Jedi Council, he wouldn't dare to attack us because if he did, we splatter that mo'fo against the wall."

Palpatine killed them all because they were bunched up at the enterance to his room not expecting a fight, after which, when he began dueling Mace (who was not only given warning before he was attacked, but probably one of the best Jedi Masters as well,) he was given a real run for his money. He had bet, however, that if this happened Anakin would show up so that when Anakin arrived Palpatine would starts hamming it up with the "I'm so weak! Please don't kill me..." shpiel so that Anakin would at least save him from Death (whereby he could use the "Jedi Plot to Kill ME! ME OF ALL PEOPLE" card in jail, or at least convince Anakin to free him) if not kill Mace.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2005-05-22 10:39pm

Why does everyone look at things in such abolutes? Is palpatine fallible? Yes. Even the best boxers find themselves defeated once in a while (with one notable exception). The emperor may have won 7 out of 10 battles with Mace, but it so happened that this time he had failed.

Its not as if Mace Windu is chopped liver.

In Episode II, when Anakin is describing Obi Wan, he describes him as "As wise as Yoda, and as powerful as Master Windu". Whether you agree with the statement about Obiwan or not, that to me seems to indicate that Windu is regarded as the most powerful of the Jedi, even if he is second to Yoda in terms of Force Knowlede and leadership.

If Mace wasn't about to kill Palpatine, then the whole mess could have been avoided as well. The reason Anakin intervened is because while Yoda could only tell Anakin to "Let go of attachment", Palpatine offered the ability to save Padme and he would not allow Mace to destroy any chance of him learning that ability.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2005-05-23 03:44am

I don't think there's any doubt about it. Palpy loses his saber just as Anakin is about to walk in. The timing is a little too good for it to be an accident.

Plust it ties in with ROTJ perfectly. When Palpy used himself as bait, he thought he could pull it off precisely because it worked with Daddy.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2005-05-23 05:33am

Yeah, reading this and thinking back i reckon Palpy was faking. He goes stab, stab, slash and gets rid of 3 jedi masters just like that and then takes ages to do in one.

Those 3 jedi dieing so fast really annoyed me. THere jedi masters and palp just slowly stabs them. WHy didn't one of the other nail palpy as he extended himself and stabbed the first one?

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2005-05-23 06:57am

Additionally, there was nothing to stop Palpatine simply blasting Windu again when he (rather stupidly) raised his sword to come down on him. Striking from high is good in a duel (Qui-Gon says so in Kingdom Of Heaven

), but since Palpatine's power was far from drained, he could've just blown him out there and then. Anakin only helped by showing he'd turned to his side by lobbing one arm off. Mace goes "WTF?" and is toast milliseconds later.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-05-23 07:14am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Additionally, there was nothing to stop Palpatine simply blasting Windu again when he (rather stupidly) raised his sword to come down on him. Striking from high is good in a duel (Qui-Gon says so in Kingdom Of Heaven ), but since Palpatine's power was far from drained, he could've just blown him out there and then. Anakin only helped by showing he'd turned to his side by lobbing one arm off. Mace goes "WTF?" and is toast milliseconds later.

I considered this as well, but since Windu was able to get his sabre in the way of the lightening initially, I figure he'd be able to do it in time from highguard too. If Windu believed Sidious to be uber Sith material, I'm not sure he'd be underestimating him just because Sidious was playing pussy.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2005-05-23 07:22am

Also, did Anakin just fail to notice the 3 dead jedi masters in the door way?

"Oh oh, i'm old and helpless, but i managed to kill 3 bad ass mother fuckers."

Kane Starkiller · Post by **Kane Starkiller** » 2005-05-23 11:21am

Just watched the film the second time. I noticed something about the Mace Palps duel. At one point Palpatine is pointing his lightsaber straigth at Mace's chest. The tip is almost touching his chest and Mace appears to be completley defensles. Anyway Palpatine doesn't use the chance and the fighting resumes.
I could be wrong though, guess I'll just have to wait the DVD.

Glimmervoid · Post by **Glimmervoid** » 2005-05-23 11:26am

Kane Starkiller wrote:Just watched the film the second time. I noticed something about the Mace Palps duel. At one point Palpatine is pointing his lightsaber straigth at Mace's chest. The tip is almost touching his chest and Mace appears to be completley defensles. Anyway Palpatine doesn't use the chance and the fighting resumes.
I could be wrong though, guess I'll just have to wait the DVD.

I remember that but I also remember the light sabre moving away from his chest fast I assumed he force pushed it or something.

Rommie2006 · Post by **Rommie2006** » 2005-05-23 11:31am

I know there are alot of Wankatine fans out there, I myself included.

But has anyone taken note that Mace Windu uses Form 7 aka Vaapad aka a very "Grey" style of lightsaber technique bordering on the dark side?

Ok from *somewhere* (cant seem to remember the source), I read that the Jedi were easily taken down by the Sith in saber to saber combat because the Jedi skills and training were stagnate. They have not changed since 1000 thousand years ago, when they last fought the Sith. That's why Obi-Wan despite how much he has trained and improved still get his ass kicked by Dooku.

The only way to win a trained Sith Lord is:
1)By sheer overpowering (aka Anakin vs Dooku)
2)Use a non-standard Jedi style (aka Mace vs Sidious)

If I am not mistaken Mace INVENTED his own lightsaber technique, and since it aint a very "light-sided" technique, Palps had a harder time fighting him.
This would explain why he cut through the 3 extra meat shields but got owned by Mace.

So Mace kicked Sidious hard. Sidious didnt fake his defeat. However, he did start faking it when Anakin arrived, the "Oh I am so weak" part.... pathetic performance from a Sith Lord I must say.

Pcm979 · Post by **Pcm979** » 2005-05-23 11:43am

According to the novel, Vaapad allows the user to reflect Dark Side energy back on it's user, elimiating the DS user's advantage.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-05-23 11:45am

After re-watching, Palpatine clearly throws one perfect opportunity to bisect Mace during the duel. It is so obvious that Sidious would have to be far dumber than even I (and lets face it, I've insulted the man virulently) had him down for if he geniunely missed it..

Rommie2006 · Post by **Rommie2006** » 2005-05-23 11:59am

NecronLord wrote:After re-watching, Palpatine clearly throws one perfect opportunity to bisect Mace during the duel. It is so obvious that Sidious would have to be far dumber than even I (and lets face it, I've insulted the man virulently) had him down for if he geniunely missed it..

I think there was a part where he sort of "tripped" and fell to his knees. Unfortunately Mace was not facing his back, if not he would be cut to shreds.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-05-23 12:20pm

Sidious went down on one knee at one point, but he didn't trip. It was more of a duck, then a saber attack. His guard didn't go down at that point. As ever with the Jedi, there were some serious flaws in the sword fighting, but Sidious wasn't that poor.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2005-05-23 01:04pm

NecronLord wrote:After re-watching, Palpatine clearly throws one perfect opportunity to bisect Mace during the duel. It is so obvious that Sidious would have to be far dumber than even I (and lets face it, I've insulted the man virulently) had him down for if he geniunely missed it..

Or, he could have been waiting for Anakin to show up, so he could do his little helpless act.

Another piece of evidence to add to the already large list.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin