Padme - Bad Mother?

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Inferring from where? Evidence please? Not disagreeing outright, but there's nowhere in the movie where that can be inferred.

Darth Sidious: "It appears that, in your anger, you killed her."

Darth Vader: "No! That's not possible. She was alive. I felt her!"

Yeah, its called the Force choke scene.

Nice way of ignoring his next line "No, she was alive, I felt it."

Uh... I don't get it.

[Knife]

Then maybe it had more to do that she was resigned to the vision of herself dying during childbirth, so she figured there was no use fighting to stay alive.

Possible, though she was strong enough to fight when he people were dying on Naboo under the Trade Federation. What did the govenor say in the 'bait' message? 'The death toll is catestrophic'.

She was strong enough to stand up and fight with that kind of shit grating on her, her wimpification in RotS seems out of character to me.

[Stormbringer]

Then maybe it had more to do that she was resigned to the vision of herself dying during childbirth, so she figured there was no use fighting to stay alive.

Possible, though she was strong enough to fight when he people were dying on Naboo under the Trade Federation. What did the govenor say in the 'bait' message? 'The death toll is catestrophic'.

She was strong enough to stand up and fight with that kind of shit grating on her, her wimpification in RotS seems out of character to me.

Actually some thing or other she did, gave them away as I recall.

And anyway, "The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of a million is a statistic." Seeing the man she loved, the father of her children, turning evil, slaughtering children, friends, and turning the galaxy over to the SW equivalent of Satan has to be a bit more immediately traumatic.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Darth Sidious: "It appears that, in your anger, you killed her."

Darth Vader: "No! That's not possible. She was alive. I felt her!"

Yeah, its called the Force choke scene.

Nice way of ignoring his next line "No, she was alive, I felt it."

I disagree with that. "No! That's no possible. She was alive. I felt her!" to me appears to indicate that Vader thinks it was a the force-choke that killed her, but to me it reinforces the notion that he killed her later, subconsciously, with the force of his anger. He felt her later--but what he doesn't realize at that moment is that when he felt her, when he reached out to sense her life force in his anger, rage, and pain, he killed her. Palpatine knew that and was pointing it out, but Vader did not realize what he had done and was naturally interpreting what Palpatine had said in the best possible light for himself, rather than come to grips with what he had done.

[Petrosjko]

Possible, though she was strong enough to fight when he people were dying on Naboo under the Trade Federation. What did the govenor say in the 'bait' message? 'The death toll is catestrophic'.

She was strong enough to stand up and fight with that kind of shit grating on her, her wimpification in RotS seems out of character to me.

Actually some thing or other she did, gave them away as I recall.

And anyway, "The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of a million is a statistic." Seeing the man she loved, the father of her children, turning evil, slaughtering children, friends, and turning the galaxy over to the SW equivalent of Satan has to be a bit more immediately traumatic.

Sometimes people just crack. Look at her life- sovereign over an entire planet as a young kid, bounce from that to the senate, become the target for assassination, barely escapes Geonosis, hides a relationship that could ruin her career, sits out the war hearing rumors of Anakin's death, then endures the assault on Coruscant...

And that's just to bring her up to the start of the movie. Then she has to come to terms with the fact that she was a pawn on the board from day one, that the senator from her homeworld that she put into the position of ultimate power was a Sith Lord who had just stolen her husband from her...

When you look at the sequence of events in this poor kid's life, it's a wonder she wasn't already bouncing around in a padded cell.

[Kurgan]

Btw, if anybody hasn't seen this yet, it's worth a look (not quite like "Khaaan.com" but pretty close).

I didn't want to start a new thread on it, and it's sorta related, so here goes:

http://darthno.ytmnd.com/

[Stofsk]

I don't understand how she could be considered a bad mother given she died before she had the chance to even BECOME a mother. Nor is it fair to declare her 'selfish' as though she even had a choice in the matter of living and dying. Especially if the implication of the ending is that Vader killed her subconsciously.

[Stofsk]

That was one of the down sides to RotS, Padme really turned into a wimpy bitch. The other two movies she's a strong woman, but the last one, they made her into a tower of whiney snot. Sad.

I don't understand this hostility directed against Padme. What the fuck did she do which was so bad? So what if she didn't pick up a blaster and start killing things? She isn't a fighter, she's a diplomat. What is she going to do? Grab a rifle, scream "So this is how democracy ends... with a BULLET!" and take out Palpatine like a stereotypical 'angry chick'?

It would have been much nicer to have her live, be angry, devote her self to the early rebellion and have her live on Alderan as some sort of handmaiden to Organa so she could be close to her daughter and have it implied that she was killed when the Deathstar attacked.

Uh... then how come Leia grows up with adopted parents if one of her parents is still alive and living with her? That makes NO sense.

Padme had to die, because her absence from the OT needs to be explained. From the OT we learn Anakin's fate, but not Padme's.

[Knife]

I don't understand this hostility directed against Padme. What the fuck did she do which was so bad? So what if she didn't pick up a blaster and start killing things? She isn't a fighter, she's a diplomat. What is she going to do? Grab a rifle, scream "So this is how democracy ends... with a BULLET!" and take out Palpatine like a stereotypical 'angry chick'?

For two movies, she was a strong character. In RotS, she was relegated to a lamp stand. Granted, alot of the political stuff, like the list of 2000 were cut from the movie, but even then in the novel she didn't do a damn thing with it. They met with her and she signed but no speaches, no Padme spit and fire move to help Mothma or Organa.

Uh... then how come Leia grows up with adopted parents if one of her parents is still alive and living with her? That makes NO sense.

She'd have to be on the down low. Out of sight so her hubby wouldn't find her and either take her or the kid or both. Also, it's possible that the Emperor would see her as a threat too, and if he knew she was still kicking, try to kill her.

Padme had to die, because her absence from the OT needs to be explained. From the OT we learn Anakin's fate, but not Padme's.

It easily could have been by having her go to Alderan at the end. It would make Leia's bit about remembering her 'just images, really' a bit more believable. She didn't need to die, just Anakin needed to think she died.

Edited to fix quote tags.

[UCBooties]

I don't understand how she could be considered a bad mother given she died before she had the chance to even BECOME a mother. Nor is it fair to declare her 'selfish' as though she even had a choice in the matter of living and dying. Especially if the implication of the ending is that Vader killed her subconsciously.

Because it is also implied that she does have a choice in the matter of living or dying. This entire debate arises because of the droid's line that she was physicaly healthy. It's that one line that raises my hackles because without it it would have been perfectly plausable that she had been badly injured by Anakin's attack. With it we have to decide whether Padme's a selfish bitch or Anakin's got crazy trans-galactic love link that killed is wife with the force.

[Stofsk]

For two movies, she was a strong character. In RotS, she was relegated to a lamp stand.

Why? Because we see less of her than we do in the other films? Because when we do see her she wants to hug her lover? Because she, like the other characters, can't do anything to stop Palpatine?

You really want to call the woman who stood by her man to the end, didn't believe Obi-wan when he told her all those things at the end, and she STILL went to find Anakin to get the story out of him, ALONE. You really want to call her weak? She had a lot of guts to do that. Besides, I'm sick of the "Just give her a blaster and she's a STRONG character" notion a lot of people seem to be running around with. Her character was never a goddamn fighter, but a diplomat. She's a politician who knows how to aim and shoot a gun. That's it.

She'd have to be on the down low. Out of sight so her hubby wouldn't find her and either take her or the kid or both. Also, it's possible that the Emperor would see her as a threat too, and if he knew she was still kicking, try to kill her.

Except it doesn't make sense. Because the twins were broken up, and if Padme is still alive then why would she agree to her children being taken away from her?

I'm still not convinced.

It easily could have been by having her go to Alderan at the end. It would make Leia's bit about remembering her 'just images, really' a bit more believable. She didn't need to die, just Anakin needed to think she died.

No, she did need to die. If she was alive then she really was a selfish bitch for not being there for her kids. Her absence from the twin's lives can only be explained the way it went down in ROTS. Padme was killed due to Vader's actions. If she had lived then I'll bet real money she would have told Yoda and Obi-wan where to fuck off if they tried taking her kids.

[Cykeisme]

Observation: The way the character assassination is going, some of you people make it sound as though she fucking committed suicide or something.

[Stravo]

Observation: The way the character assassination is going, some of you people make it sound as though she fucking committed suicide or something.

What else do you call willing yourself to die when your two helpless children are brought into the world?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I still contend that the circumstantial evidence is strong enough to argue that she was really murdered by Vader; this, at any rate, fits into the entire Greek Tragedy-style theme of Lucas' work.

[Stofsk]

Observation: The way the character assassination is going, some of you people make it sound as though she fucking committed suicide or something.

What else do you call willing yourself to die when your two helpless children are brought into the world?

And how exactly do you 'will yourself to die'?

Cyke is right; this is outright character assassination.

[Solauren]

Stravo
Have the woman you love choke you into unconsciousness after slaughtering young children, and tell me how much YOU want to live

[Joe]

I still contend that the circumstantial evidence is strong enough to argue that she was really murdered by Vader; this, at any rate, fits into the entire Greek Tragedy-style theme of Lucas' work.

I went ahead and developed an entry for Mike's ROTS commentary in the thread dedicated to it based on this theory. I'd appreciate it if you read it and made some comments.

[Stravo]

Observation: The way the character assassination is going, some of you people make it sound as though she fucking committed suicide or something.

What else do you call willing yourself to die when your two helpless children are brought into the world?

And how exactly do you 'will yourself to die'?

Cyke is right; this is outright character assassination.

I guess you will yourself to die by...uh....losing your will to live.

Since when is character assaisnation a counter to a very simple statement.

"George Bush led the United States to war on a false premise."

"You're wrong because that's character assasination."

Don't like the outcome bitch to Lucas not me. Thats the impression given in that scene.

[Stravo]

Stravo
Have the woman you love choke you into unconsciousness after slaughtering young children, and tell me how much YOU want to live

All I have to do is look into my daughter's eyes to know the answer to that. Obviously that wasn't enough for Padme. Perhaps she imagined the diaper changing sessions and said "I'm outtie."

[Stofsk]

No it isn't. The medical droid didn't know what was wrong with Padme, as she was continuing to die through circumstances beyond his know-how. When he says "It's as if she's lost the will to live" doesn't make it a qualified medical assessment, but a metaphor.

So again, how exactly do you 'will yourself to die'? Is that like suicide-lite?

And it IS a character assassination, since the thread stated "I posit she's a selfish bitch" based on dubious grounds. Duchess' and Joe's ideas fit perfectly with what we see, while at the same time leaving Padme some dignity. You on the other hand assume she committed suicide virtually, when NOTHING in the scene gave me that impression.

[Star Empire]

I think my only real complaint about this movie was the way Padme was portrayed. Maybe I just need to see it again, but she seemed like an entirely different character to me than in Episodes I and II. I have to watch it again before I say more, but she didn't seem at all like the senator who fought tooth and nail to defeat the Military Creation Act (although I suppose it needs to be accepted that becoming pregnant would shift our priorities at least somewhat).

[Stravo]

No it isn't. The medical droid didn't know what was wrong with Padme, as she was continuing to die through circumstances beyond his know-how. When he says "It's as if she's lost the will to live" doesn't make it a qualified medical assessment, but a metaphor.

Let's see...the droid EXPLICITLY states there is nothing physically wrong with her. She has simply lost the will to live. You want to try and spin out an explanation over a stated conclusion in the movie?

So again, how exactly do you 'will yourself to die'? Is that like suicide-lite?

She didn't want to live anymore, her body functions were failing despite the fact that there was nothing wrong with them ergo she willed herself to die. We can blieve that Yoda can will himself to live long enough to train Luke but the minute it makes Padme look like a selfish twat suddenly "That's imposdsible man." Its also impossible to move rocks by will alone yet I see it in every fucking movie set in that universe.

And it IS a character assassination, since the thread stated "I posit she's a selfish bitch" based on dubious grounds. Duchess' and Joe's ideas fit perfectly with what we see, while at the same time leaving Padme some dignity. You on the other hand assume she committed suicide virtually, when NOTHING in the scene gave me that impression.

It fits perfectly with what? There's absolutely no proof that Vader is siphoning anything off of her. You see a simple cinematic moment of juxtaposition and read into it an ability we have never seen before or since in the films and denied by Vader himself when he doesn't even know where the fuck Padme is or what her state of being is.

[Stofsk]

Let's see...the droid EXPLICITLY states there is nothing physically wrong with her. She has simply lost the will to live. You want to try and spin out an explanation over a stated conclusion in the movie?

What stated conclusion? The droid didn't know what the fuck was wrong with her and was only guessing. That isn't a firm conclusion by any stretch of the imagination, yet YOU continuously spin it as such.

You start off with a conclusion - she's a bad mother, she's selfish - and spin the facts to support you. WHAT facts? Some shithead droid giving us such a precise clinical condition known as "Oh I guess she just lost the will to live"? I didn't realise you could die from feeling depressed. Oh I know you can kill yourself, but that takes some effort. Padme wasn't even in the position to do so. So she's selfish, eh? Given that her character has been rather selfLESS throughout all three films, in the last five minutes of the goddamn film she does a complete 180 and becomes selfish? She's a BAD MOTHER because she was killed by Vader? She's a bad mother because she didn't get the fucking chance to raise her kids?

It fits perfectly with what? There's absolutely no proof that Vader is siphoning anything off of her.

There's also no proof that Padme commits suicide due to being a selfish bitch.

You see a simple cinematic moment of juxtaposition and read into it an ability we have never seen before or since in the films

You hear a dumb medical droid give an unprofessional opinion that was pure guesswork and assume a character has less sterling motivations which can't be rightly inferred from the screen.

and denied by Vader himself when he doesn't even know where the fuck Padme is or what her state of being is.

Hence why he was doing it subconsciously.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Let's see...the droid EXPLICITLY states there is nothing physically wrong with her. She has simply lost the will to live. You want to try and spin out an explanation over a stated conclusion in the movie?

So says the droid. It's clear that droids are not fully competent in assessing reality, especially when it comes to things affected by the force. The weapon analysis droids in AOTC couldn't even fucking tell the saber dart was Kaminoan due to a couple changes in its shape. "If droids could think, there would be none of us, now would there?"

She didn't want to live anymore, her body functions were failing despite the fact that there was nothing wrong with them ergo she willed herself to die. We can blieve that Yoda can will himself to live long enough to train Luke but the minute it makes Padme look like a selfish twat suddenly "That's imposdsible man." Its also impossible to move rocks by will alone yet I see it in every fucking movie set in that universe.

Darth Sidious EXPLICITLY told Darth Vader that he killed her in his anger. You completely assumed that Padme committed suicide when it's not possible to commit suicide when you're fucking healthy while lying down on a medbed doing absolutely nothing harmful to yourself.

There's absolutely no proof that Vader is siphoning anything off of her. You see a simple cinematic moment of juxtaposition and read into it an ability we have never seen before or since in the films and denied by Vader himself when he doesn't even know where the fuck Padme is or what her state of being is.

While the nature of the manifestation Vader's anger is not stated, I thought it was rather clear that it ended up killing Padme. Whether it was supposedly "siphoning" her or not is irrelevant. Strong attachments to others can affect each other one way or another as observed by Yoda's pain when the Jedis were systematically eliminated by Order 66.

[Stofsk]

Strong attachments to others can affect each other one way or another as observed by Yoda's pain when the Jedis were systematically eliminated by Order 66.

Yes. There is also a precedent for this in KOTOR 2. The Exile and Kreia form a bond that links their fates to the other. It is implied what happens to one can affect the other. When Kreia gets injured in a duel with Darth Scarface, the Exile keels over in pain even though she's far enough away.