Why do you Hate them?

Old Plympto · Post by **Old Plympto** » 2005-06-07 12:39am

Fire Fly wrote:I also really hated that Veers got demoted to a fucking army captain. He was one of my favorite Imperials from the movies.

Ah. According to the WEG sourcebook, that was Max's son Zev. It wasn't THE General Veers.

Coriolis · Post by **Coriolis** » 2005-06-07 12:51am

Old Plympto wrote:
Fire Fly wrote:I also really hated that Veers got demoted to a fucking army captain. He was one of my favorite Imperials from the movies.
Ah. According to the WEG sourcebook, that was Max's son Zev. It wasn't THE General Veers.

Wasn't Max's son on the Republic's side? I remember that from somewhere.

(About KJA) Let us not forget this particular piece of wank:
"The Super Star Destroyer nearly bankrupted the Empire!"

Post by **RogueIce** » 2005-06-07 01:37am

What annoyed me most about the JAT is that Kyp lived. He really should've died when he sent the Suncrusher into that blackhole. It would've made things much better, IMO. It would be an actual sacrifice. As it stands, he was totally healed physically and all was apparently forgiven. A fact that I'm glad Stackpole chose to comment on in I, Jedi.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-07 01:54am

NJO Kyp in general was a pompous ass.
Also lets be fair, instead of using weapon power for the suncrusher KJA used “Technobabble” quantum singularity torpedoes, also it did take them a whole 10 minutes to supernova a sun

.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2005-06-07 02:59am

Jedi Academy trilogy was such bullshit. "Oh look....KJA pulled out ANOTHER Death Star! He's so creative!"

Jar Jar was a missed opportunity. He should have played a larger part in ROTS. He had potential, in the hands of the right storyteller, to make audiences feel for him in light of his goofiness in TPM should he fall in with the bad guys in AOTC or ROTS, and have him martyred in his bid to redeem himself, perhaps even killed by Anakin.

Maybe if he had been done right from the very beginning but by ROTS everyone just wanted the pain to stop.

Fire Fly · Post by **Fire Fly** » 2005-06-07 03:23am

Old Plympto wrote:
Fire Fly wrote:I also really hated that Veers got demoted to a fucking army captain. He was one of my favorite Imperials from the movies.
Ah. According to the WEG sourcebook, that was Max's son Zev. It wasn't THE General Veers.

According to the collective knowledge of Star Wars fans on Wikipedia, Veers was demoted to the rank of captain and forced to lead a suicide mission.

Link

When the recall from the Deep Core came, like many other officers searching for a new hope, General Veers answered it and reported to the Imperial Fleet orbiting Byss. Six months after Thrawn's defeat at the Battle of Bilbringi, Veers would participate in the Battles of Mon Calamari, Byss and lastly Balmorra. It was during the Battle of Balmorra that Veers suffered the worse fate that could be given to an established officer of the Empire. Hated for the fact that he served and survived Lord Vader, Veers was severely demoted to the rank of Captain and sent on a suicide mission by Executor Sedriss--an insane and inept darksider.

Maximilian Veers, one of the Empire's greatest ground tacticians and heroes, was reported to have perished on that fateful suicide mission.

General Veers, a soldier to the end.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2005-06-07 05:54am

Fire Fly wrote:According to the collective knowledge of Star Wars fans on Wikipedia, Veers was demoted to the rank of captain and forced to lead a suicide mission.

Zev Veers, as I understand it, defected to the New Republic:

DESB Ch.1 wrote:Zev Veers

Zevulon Veers was born to a life of power and prestige, but he sacrificed it all for what he believed in. Eldest born child of General Maximilian Veers, his mother died of a rare disease while on holiday. That summer was the last truly happy one he can remember of his childhood. Father was an up and corning Imperial officer with a good career ahead of him, but there was something nagging at young Zev's conscience. As he grew older, he grew increasingly distant from his father and missed the warmth of his mother's smile, although he went to the finest schools and wanted for nothing.

Except answers to questions that dogged him. Like why his tutors, who were obviously more intelligent than him in many ways, were slaves. Or why his father spoke endlessly of the "glory of power," yet never seemed to mention that the military's job was to serve and protect the citizens of the Empire. Or why friends of his father who spoke their minds on Imperial policy kept on disappearing. These led to other questions. Ones no one would give him an honest answer to. Whether his father couldn't or wouldn't answer these questions, they stayed with young Zev. It seemed that so much of what the Empire stood for was a lie. His father talked of glory and courage, but how much courage did it take to bomb planets from orbit? Or to enslave aliens?

When Zev had to join the local Sub-Adult Group (SAGroup) battalion, he was reluctant. Wegsphere was enjoyable enough, but he didn't get along with the other kids very well. He liked the idea of working to improve society, but somehow marching in formation and climbing mountains while singing pro-New Order anthems didn't seem to be what he was looking for.

He managed to make it through the adolescent period without any big mistakes, but things changed when his father took him aside to discuss how the bad marks from the Political Reliability Observer might hurt the general's career. That really bothered him, the way his questions and apparently innocuous remarks about the slave camp field trip were betraying his father. Zev would keep his ideas to himself from then on.

He made it for his first few years after that with no repeats of his earlier mistakes. That didn't mean that he accepted the party line whole. His teachers had taught Zev too well. Courses in philosophy and logic only made the case against the New Order stronger. Media reports and propaganda broadcasts could only hide so much and Zev didn't like what he could read between the lines.

Junior officer training came and went, but not soon enough for Zev. His father was a hard man, and wanted his son to grow up that way too. Zev hoped his assignment would turn out be an army post. He knew better. His father wouldn't hear of his son taking a non-combat position. First, he had to survive his CompForce hitch. "CompFarce" was more like it. They weren't much better than teens carrying loaded weapons. He was getting tired of saluting, sprog-stepping and singing hymns to the New Order.

It was here that Zev reached his breaking point. It was only a few short weeks after the Battle of Hoth and his father was the Empire's newest military hero. He had just returned from a short leave with his father, and Zev had been treated like a hero as well. By the side of his father, he went to endless celebrations and heard countless speeches about the glory of the Empire and how the Alliance was immoral and doomed to defeat.

After Zev returned from the glamour and ceremony, he learned what the Empire really stood for. During a routine police action, Zev was assigned to bodyguard the battalion commander while he interrogated prisoners. Intending to harden the young man to the sight of torture, the commander, Ivo Laibach, showed off his ISB training. Zev was horrified as the Rebel, an old man, was beaten mercilessly and tortured. Even the other two "CompFarcers," boys younger than he, started turning green.

Luckily for Zev, while the commander man-handled the local librarian, the real Rebels showed up. Laibach, idiot that he was, went outside "to take care of the nonsense" and got wounded by the Rebels for his trouble. It would be funny if it weren't all so horrible.

Zev came to a decision: he couldn't just let the old man die. So he untied the librarian and used a medpac on him — just as the librarian's daughter, the Rebel squad leader, came to his rescue. Initially she was distrustful of Zev, but she was won over by her father's testimony. Zev was still taken prisoner, but not treated much like one.

That was a few short months before the Battle of Endor, where the Empire faced defeat. In the six years since, Zev has become a full-fledged Rebel. He is now doing what he wants. He still hopes that someday his family will reject the Empire and that his father will understand, but he hasn't seen or heard from his father since he deserted the Empire.

When he occasionally is mistaken by some for Zev Senesca, a Rebel pilot who gave his life for the Rebellion, Veers is nonplussed — "I only hope I can be worthy of the comparison someday."

BTW, Wiki seems to be down.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2005-06-07 06:31am

I can't say I hate DE, but I don't like the resurrected Palpatine thing so I pretty much ignore the DE.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-06-07 06:45am

Mange the Swede wrote:I can't say I hate DE, but I don't like the resurrected Palpatine thing so I pretty much ignore the DE.

Indeed. It's an interesting as an "alternate reality", but to view it the same way I view the movies? No.
The idea that Sidious wasn't destroyed at Endor pretty much ruins the entire hexology (zing!) in my eyes.

I guess the like or dislike for the EU stems from a difference in the fundamental way people view Star Wars. While some people would like it to never end, to me, the tale told is a monolithic epic that stands alone- dragging it out simply dilutes it.

While I like the setting (our favorite 25,000 year old galactic civilization) very much, I feel that any additional stories set in it should avoid touching on the fates of the main characters as much as possible.

Trying to make excuses for the poor quality of ideas or writing in some parts of the EU is a lost cause, though. It makes one look silly just for trying.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-06-07 06:47am

I like Palpatine coming back, but I dislike the wankery:

"I´m back! And I´ve got a fleet of deadly vacuum-cleaners, a new command ship with a mini-superlaser AND the ability to conjure up Force-Storms!!!11! And I have to be younger for some reason..."

Cut the Force-Storm-bit and I might like it more.

Faqa · Post by **Faqa** » 2005-06-07 12:36pm

DE: Haven't read it, but pulling a resurrected Emperor out of an author's ass generally leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

"Oooh, lookame!!!! I'm not really dead, that whole ROTJ thing was WORTHLESS!!! Bwahahahahaha!!!!".

Way to cheapen the most powerful scenes in the fucking OT, fuckwit.

KJA: I don't hate him, but his flaws are certainly recognizable. Take Darksaber:

Our Heroes(decently in character, aside from a way-too-balanced Luke) go around doing.... SHIT of any consequence. They focus on uncovering a plot that, guess what? Fucking fails without their intervention. The bad guys were incompetent idiots who couldn't pull of their plan. There's drama for you. Though, considering a certain death there, it's a tragic comedy....

Then the Imperial attack. The B plot, in which the Imps gather and attack, rather nicely. Unfortunately, ships are MASSIVELY nerfed to give the rebels a fighting chance(an SSD can't fucking pull off a BDZ, huh Anderson?), and the almighty Force-wanking destroys this plot and turns it into tripe.

He's simply dreadfully conventional. He fails to get SW, IMHO.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-07 12:40pm

Also the way he just kept dying and coming back every second issue..
Worse than Disworld vampires.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2005-06-07 01:37pm

Pure Sabacc wrote:and even the IG-88 short story.

Which, for those curious, involves IG-88 downloading himself into the Death Star II and preparing to take it over to rule the galaxy with all of his robotic cohorts. His plot was defeated, unintentionally, by the efforts of the Rebel Alliance.

In other words:

Sure thing, Kev ol' buddy...

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-07 02:37pm

At least it showed a spark of originality,
Who knows, maybe it gave the KOTOR makers the idea if everyones favourite psychotic killing machine:
HK-47, "Goodbye meatbags"

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2005-06-07 03:24pm

Ironically, isn't Dark Empire reportedly George Lucas' favorite piece of EU?

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-07 03:27pm

All of a sudden iv'e lost all hope in episodes 0,7-9.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-06-07 03:34pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:
Pure Sabacc wrote:and even the IG-88 short story.
Which, for those curious, involves IG-88 downloading himself into the Death Star II and preparing to take it over to rule the galaxy with all of his robotic cohorts. His plot was defeated, unintentionally, by the efforts of the Rebel Alliance.

In other words:

Sure thing, Kev ol' buddy...

It is pretty ridiculous, but it still is an interesting concept.

Dooey Jo · Post by **Dooey Jo** » 2005-06-07 04:34pm

Well, I don't really mind DE. Sure, it might be a little unoriginal to have the Emperor cloned. TWICE! But other than that, it's okay. The thing I don't like about it is the way they drew and coloured it. There are more colours than just green, black and yellow!

I haven't read much of KJA. I've read the whole Young Jedi Knights series though, and I really liked it. But I was like 12 or something at the time, and KJA had a co-author. And maybe the translation took care of some of the worst wordplays I hear KJA enjoy. Things like "Dark Knight"/"Dark Night" don't translate well into Swedish

As for Jar-Jar, I don't hate him. I mean, he's an idiot, but I kind of like him. I actually missed him in RotS

He should at least have been there and done something. I really don't give a fuck about how much people would have complained (I'm looking at you two guys who sat behind me and had to give wise-ass comments through the whole film), Jar-Jar should either have decided to join the rebellion (and maybe get killed by Anakin in the process) or helped Palpatine (thus making him evil). Just having him silently vanish is no good.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-06-07 04:37pm

I haven't read the DE, but if you ask me there's one thing in common with KJA and my ass, they both don't produce nothing but crap.

Old Plympto · Post by **Old Plympto** » 2005-06-07 07:32pm

Faqa wrote:Our Heroes (decently in character, aside from a way-too-balanced Luke) go around doing.... SHIT of any consequence. They focus on uncovering a plot that, guess what? Fucking fails without their intervention. The bad guys were incompetent idiots who couldn't pull of their plan. There's drama for you.

That's it right there in a nutshell. I couldn't have put it better myself. That's like during the Battle of Yavin, a mouse droid accidentally hits the self-destruct button of the Death Star for no apparent reason.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-06-07 08:03pm

the .303 bookworm wrote:All of a sudden iv'e lost all hope in episodes 0,7-9.

Why should you have any hope at all in things that aren't ever going to come out?

Jadeite · Post by **Jadeite** » 2005-06-07 09:17pm

RogueIce wrote:What annoyed me most about the JAT is that Kyp lived. He really should've died when he sent the Suncrusher into that blackhole. It would've made things much better, IMO. It would be an actual sacrifice. As it stands, he was totally healed physically and all was apparently forgiven. A fact that I'm glad Stackpole chose to comment on in I, Jedi.

Kyp being forgiven of his crimes really pissed me off. Everyone in the novels goes on an on about how evil the Empire is, but they conveniently forget how he murdered millions.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2005-06-07 10:09pm

"That's okay! He was under the influence of a long dead Sith Lord! That makes it all better."

Fucking hack.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-06-07 10:40pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
Old Plympto wrote:6 words for you:

"Daala, you are such a pain!"

Can you imagine Han Solo coming up with crap repartees such as this?
Actually, I have two more words:

Blob. Racing.

I put the book down. I seriously did not continue reading after that. I have not even picked up Jedi Search since then, and I won't unless to burn it.

Also, I like Dark Empire. The first one. The sequel has a ton of stupid shit in it, unfortunately.

Whatever happened to Daala anyway?

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-06-07 10:59pm

Whatever happened to Daala anyway?

Apparently, she doesnt even deserve the dignity of death.