Palpatine = Emperor? Lucas says we will be surprised

[Lord Pounder]

ok then, so Lightsabers colour depends on the cyrstal, thats obvious. you get the crystals in a special planet ok. any one care to explain that Gantoris in Jedi Accademy was able to use cousca gems?

[HemlockGrey]

Because KJA is a worthless hack.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Of course, it could just be left at Sam Jackson thinking it would be badass to get a purple lightsaber and George Lucas just letting him.

Yeah, that's what Jackson said in an interview on Letterman.

The Adi Gallia one had a red saber. What's your point?

Speaking of Adi Gallia, notice how she didn't show up at the arena battle? Stupid Lucas, wanting ALL the 'good' Jedi (minus Mace) to have blue and green lightsaber blades, and only letting the 'bad' Jedi have red lightsaber blades.

[Raptor 597]

I agree that Mace seems most likely for the suprise. His light saber is violet which is getting a little close to red. How exactly did he do that?

Blue+red=purple. Hmmm.

Right, but isn't the only way to get a red saber by using an artificial crystal manufactured, in part, by the dark side of the user?

Maybe Mace just found an extra special crystal, or either that or he is such a master that he's been developing his own blade that combines the benefits of the typical Jeid blade with those of the stronger Sith blade?

Point being? Adi Gallia had an Red lightsaber in TPM.

[neoolong]

Blue+red=purple. Hmmm.

Right, but isn't the only way to get a red saber by using an artificial crystal manufactured, in part, by the dark side of the user?

Maybe Mace just found an extra special crystal, or either that or he is such a master that he's been developing his own blade that combines the benefits of the typical Jeid blade with those of the stronger Sith blade?

Point being? Adi Gallia had an Red lightsaber in TPM.

Did they show it ignited? Or are you getting it from the toy.

[Scorpius]

The split-personality idea with Palpatine is kind of interesting. Maybe he has both a good side and a bad side, just the bad side is mostly in control. Maybe the good side was not aware of the split personality and was being unconciously manipulated by the darker side, which would explain why Palpatine was able to operate directly under the noses of the jedi for so long.

Well, the last movie was called Attack of the CLONES right? What if Palpy and Sidious are in fact two seperate people: one cloned from the other? When the empire arises it would be easy for Sidious to do away with Palpatine and take his place as Palpatine, because everyone would assume he was Palpatine. How often does an Emperor have to make speeches vs a Chancellor?

This would suppose that Sidious was also manipulating Palpy from the very beginning also, using his thirst for power to steer him towards the Chancellorship (being his clone, Sidious would know Palpy's thirst for political power)

Just an offhand guess...

[Scorpius]

Also, if Palpy were just a power hungry politician, not twisted by the power of the Dark Side, there would be nothing to alert the Jedi.

Remember, Yoda is standing in the same room as Palpy many times; unless Yoda's powers are so clouded by the Dark Side, he should be able to detect a Sith Lord standing in front of him, shouldn't he?

[neoolong]

Also, if Palpy were just a power hungry politician, not twisted by the power of the Dark Side, there would be nothing to alert the Jedi.

Remember, Yoda is standing in the same room as Palpy many times; unless Yoda's powers are so clouded by the Dark Side, he should be able to detect a Sith Lord standing in front of him, shouldn't he?

Palpatine is a powerful Sith Lord. He may be able to block the presence of the Dark Side in him to Jedi.

[irishmick79]

But if palpatine has a split personality, and one of those splits happens to be a good, well meaning individual, that side wouldn't necessarily reek of the dark side, would it?

[Scorpius]

Also, if Palpy were just a power hungry politician, not twisted by the power of the Dark Side, there would be nothing to alert the Jedi.

Remember, Yoda is standing in the same room as Palpy many times; unless Yoda's powers are so clouded by the Dark Side, he should be able to detect a Sith Lord standing in front of him, shouldn't he?

Palpatine is a powerful Sith Lord. He may be able to block the presence of the Dark Side in him to Jedi.

Granted.

Yoda himself said the Dark Side was clouding everything...

Though it would be quite a shock if Chancellor Palpatine turned out to be something quite different than what was expected by the legions of Star Wars fans. Unless he's throwing us a red herring, why would Lucas keep scenes of Palpatine and Sidious seperate and partially obscure Sidious' face unless he's planning a surprise revelation contrary to what is expected ie: Sidious does not = Palpatine?

A longshot I know. I know not to underestimate the Emperor's powers to confuse the Jedi...

[Ghost Rider]

I sincerly hope not...mostly because this was done to death in Force.net, and Lucas practically came out and said they were the same, and hell he got his buddy/lackey McCallum to say that they are the same person.

Plus I want something on nearly the level of I am your FATHER...not I am you father's, brother's, cousin's, second roomate.(I think that's the quote...if not...sorry )

[Ender]

This reminds me of the old debates on TF.net about Syfo-Dyas, where people pointed out that Syfo-Dyas sounds like Syd-ious. I believe someone once claimed that the early scripts called for it to be that way, but I don't think they supported this claim with proof.

They are right, you just need to go and read the reports from the history part. It was changed at the end to make it less obvious.

[beyond hope]

Ilum crystals are the name, the source for that being the "Tales of the Jedi" comics. Take that with whatever esteem you hold the Dark Horse comics in...

Notice that the Jedi blades are all the "cool" colors of the color wheel... the ones that tend to be considered more soothing in nature. Red is associated with a rise in heartrate: your pulse will actually quicken seeing it. It's the color of blood, after all, and probably the reason red is associated in most cultures with warning or danger. I can't remember seeing orange or yellow anywhere aside from the Jedi Knight games, those would be the other two "hot" colors. Lastly, Corran Horn's is silver, I think. I read the X-wing novels once and they've been gathering dust on my shelf ever since.

[Stormbringer]

Also, if Palpy were just a power hungry politician, not twisted by the power of the Dark Side, there would be nothing to alert the Jedi.

Remember, Yoda is standing in the same room as Palpy many times; unless Yoda's powers are so clouded by the Dark Side, he should be able to detect a Sith Lord standing in front of him, shouldn't he?

Palpatine is a powerful Sith Lord. He may be able to block the presence of the Dark Side in him to Jedi.

Sufficiently skilled Jedi are able to do something similar so I see no reason a Sith Lord wouldn't be able to.

[Slartibartfast]

The split-personality idea with Palpatine is kind of interesting. Maybe he has both a good side and a bad side, just the bad side is mostly in control. Maybe the good side was not aware of the split personality and was being unconciously manipulated by the darker side, which would explain why Palpatine was able to operate directly under the noses of the jedi for so long.

Well, the last movie was called Attack of the CLONES right? What if Palpy and Sidious are in fact two seperate people: one cloned from the other? When the empire arises it would be easy for Sidious to do away with Palpatine and take his place as Palpatine, because everyone would assume he was Palpatine. How often does an Emperor have to make speeches vs a Chancellor?

This would suppose that Sidious was also manipulating Palpy from the very beginning also, using his thirst for power to steer him towards the Chancellorship (being his clone, Sidious would know Palpy's thirst for political power)

Just an offhand guess...

Yes that's mostly what I meant when I said twins, I didn't mean birth twins

[Lord Pounder]

Because KJA is a worthless hack.

Ok granted KJA is a failed abortion, what about Corran Horn's silver lightsaber?

[Kurgan]

Games can't be considered canon, since the people making them don't always stick to the facts.

If you want to hold to that argument, then the presence of contradictions (with what... the films?) actually works against large chunks of the EU itself (novels and comics).

Sure, sure, eventually you could say that all the apparent contradictions that the prequel films introduced (that invalidated huge chunks of the EU novel-universe) could perhaps be ironed out in future novels after Episode III comes out, but for now, any fool can see they are contradictory.

I never said games were canon anyway, obviously they'd be part of the "official quasi-canon" of the EU. But where do they rank in there? Probably near the bottom. Any word from Lucas on this?

Actually, I'd read that the reason in the recent "Jedi Outcast" Kyle Katarn is forced to use a blue lightsaber (and it is never explained why he isn't using his orange one from Mysteries of the Sith) is because Raven Software (unlike LucasArts apparently, or maybe the liscense changed since '98) is constrained by the "Star Wars Liscense" meaning that in SINGLE PLAYER.... the good guys use blue or green lightsabers (and he already used green in the previous Jedi Knight) or purple if you're Mace Windu. That also explains why the bad guys all use red lightsabers, despite the fact that in 'Jedi Knight' (by LucasArts) the bad guys use a variety of saber colors. Multiplayer is less constrained, so you get a variety of non movie colors for sabers.

One thing I think that was really stupid was the fact that in Jedi Outcast they made your saber "turn off" when it contacted a body of water.. I suppose to make it in sync with the non movie (but in the TPM novel... contradicted by AOTC onscreen events though) idea that sabers "malfunction" when they get wet.

Thankfully in Multiplayer most mod authors have ignored this and made your saber waterproof just like in the previous Jedi Knight and Mysteries of the Sith (going back with the idea set out in Splinter of the Mind's Eye, where sabers worked underwater).

Just an example....

[Kurgan]

PS: For a delightful parody fanfic of the various differences between the EU and the film canon (especially the "Special Edition" and "Prequel" films) check this out:

http://www.soulofthejedi.net/cgi-bin/st ... date&cat=9

; )

[Slartibartfast]

Games can't be considered canon, since the people making them don't always stick to the facts.

If you want to hold to that argument, then the presence of contradictions (with what... the films?) actually works against large chunks of the EU itself (novels and comics).

Sure, sure, eventually you could say that all the apparent contradictions that the prequel films introduced (that invalidated huge chunks of the EU novel-universe) could perhaps be ironed out in future novels after Episode III comes out, but for now, any fool can see they are contradictory.

I never said games were canon anyway, obviously they'd be part of the "official quasi-canon" of the EU. But where do they rank in there? Probably near the bottom. Any word from Lucas on this?

Actually, I'd read that the reason in the recent "Jedi Outcast" Kyle Katarn is forced to use a blue lightsaber (and it is never explained why he isn't using his orange one from Mysteries of the Sith) is because Raven Software (unlike LucasArts apparently, or maybe the liscense changed since '98) is constrained by the "Star Wars Liscense" meaning that in SINGLE PLAYER.... the good guys use blue or green lightsabers (and he already used green in the previous Jedi Knight) or purple if you're Mace Windu. That also explains why the bad guys all use red lightsabers, despite the fact that in 'Jedi Knight' (by LucasArts) the bad guys use a variety of saber colors. Multiplayer is less constrained, so you get a variety of non movie colors for sabers.

One thing I think that was really stupid was the fact that in Jedi Outcast they made your saber "turn off" when it contacted a body of water.. I suppose to make it in sync with the non movie (but in the TPM novel... contradicted by AOTC onscreen events though) idea that sabers "malfunction" when they get wet.

Thankfully in Multiplayer most mod authors have ignored this and made your saber waterproof just like in the previous Jedi Knight and Mysteries of the Sith (going back with the idea set out in Splinter of the Mind's Eye, where sabers worked underwater).

Just an example....

The games are explicitly pretty much OUT of the continuity. Only the stories might hold some water, but no mechanics can apply (I'd put the saber color into mechanics)

[Kurgan]

So we disagree, I guess!

Anybody have an official answer to that (whether games count in the "official continuity")?

The alternate (non-movie) saber colors of course occur elsewhere in the EU sources (including novels and comics) and some the games are attested to in print and comic sources. And the toys... So it all gets intertwined somehow...

[Slartibartfast]

So we disagree, I guess!

Anybody have an official answer to that (whether games count in the "official continuity")?

The alternate (non-movie) saber colors of course occur elsewhere in the EU sources (including novels and comics) and some the games are attested to in print and comic sources. And the toys... So it all gets intertwined somehow...

No we don't "disagree", I'm giving you the facts. The same quote that puts canon and official on different levels explicitly state that the games are NOT part of the continuity. They don't even qualify as OFFICIAL.The game mechanics are wrong by default.

Or what part of "explicitly" you didn't understand?

Unless you want to believe that it wasn't Lando who blew the second Death Star but some kid from X-Wing: Alliance (whatever was his name) piloting the Falcon.

[Ghost Rider]

Ace (never could spell the last name):)

Either way the games are seriously wrong on a great many things such as starfighter and captial class ship power.

According to the game I, in my lone X-Wing(in the original) could take down a ISD...no infinite torpedos, no god mode...just decent piloting and a lot of time.

In canon...this never happens and as calcs show...would never happen...The X-wing just doesn't pump out that much power.

So whomever believe game mean anything...the stories told from the manuals have some official bearing(because they are stories within the Alliance and Empire...but contain no game data...and since someone in EU has used Keyan Farlander in a NJO book) , but the mechanics are not even considered because they are tailored for the person to win not face a real true to life(persay) fight of the Empire vs the Alliance.

[Kurgan]

No we don't "disagree", I'm giving you the facts. The same quote that puts canon and official on different levels explicitly state that the games are NOT part of the continuity. They don't even qualify as OFFICIAL.The game mechanics are wrong by default.

Or what part of "explicitly" you didn't understand?

Unless you want to believe that it wasn't Lando who blew the second Death Star but some kid from X-Wing: Alliance (whatever was his name) piloting the Falcon.

Maybe we're arguing different things here. In one sense, I agree, in that, no, I (me, myself) didn't blow up the deathstar, nor did I slay seven dark jedi, nor did I "accidentally" shoot Luke in the back when he wasn't looking (hehe), but there's one thing I have to disagree with even in that respect...

When I say its "official" I'm referring to the (undeniable) fact that Star Wars materials MUST be officially (hence the term) liscensed through LucasFilm (or one of its owned subsidiary companies, as the case may be) if not Lucas himself in order to (legally) bear the Star Wars logo, characters, situations, etc.

The character of Kyle Katarn appeared only in a series of video games, but was later coopted into the rest of the EU. Though maybe it isn't the best example because Katarn didn't have to be portrayed in any books, but he crossed over and he's now a part of the official continuity, despite the bulk of his adventures occuring on a computer and not in a book.

So I think I know what you're trying to say, and that's not what I'm trying to argue with you about (how can I?) just some official quote from LucasFilm saying "the games aren't part of the official continuity" (ie: not even quasi-canon).

If so (once we've ironed that out), does that mean the card games, role playing games, etc are also out of the continuity? I don't mean the actions of individual people playing the game, but the "mechanics" as you put it, the stuff that doesn't disagree with the "pure canon" that is.

[Coyote]

The settings and info in the games are based on canon, I believe, but the game play is not-- so they are considered "official" rather than "canon".

Also, as for Palpatine being the Emporer-- there is a precedent in the EU for Palpatine to make clones of himself in case he gets offed. Maybe he gets killed, wounded, whatever and a clone takes over with a more dominant evil... (long shot, I know, but not beyond the realm...)

[Kurgan]

Something else I want to say to hopefully avoid people misunderstanding what I've been saying here...

I KNOW that Star Wars canon is a spectrum. I'm saying that (if anything) why is it unreasonable to say that games are part of that spectrum, even if at the lower end?

Again, I want to say I'm NOT advocating the idea mentioned above that the actions of game PLAYERS within a StarWars game are part of canon, anymore than the fictional scenarios Wong proposes in his fan fic are part of the official continuity. But the stories and themes, characters, etc, should be, unless someone can show me confirmation from the sources that they're not.

Going along with the idea of a spectrum, obviously everything flows out of the original stories, represented by the films, novelisations, screenplays, etc. so if something in a game were to contradict that, I'm not saying you'd take the game over the higher canon, obviously.