An interesting remark in AOTC

[PainRack]

False. Mace adopts the Vapaad form in lightsabre combat, which harnesses dark-energies otherwised only used by dark-Jedi and Sith. I dont have the ROTS novelisation on hand, but theres something in there mentioning how one must give him or herself over to the dark-energies of the force and allow it to control your every move, while still understanding it's implications as something which can subvert the light side. Bascially, it's towing the line of both light and dark.

This is probaly the reason Mace is often (falsely) regarded as the superior fighter in the order, and Yoda as the wiser. Mace was the only Jedi at the time who used Vappad, given it's level of difficulty and danger in mastering.

Where did you get the impression that Vapaad harness Dark side energies? All information apart from the ROTS novelisation which I haven't read suggests that Vaapad is an highly aggressive lightsabre form that treads close to the Dark Side, as it welcomes agression and violence. That was always the whole crux of Vaapad, its a highly effective form, but its need to welcome agression and violence into your pysche leads dangerously close to the Dark Side.

Frankly, I been looking at Anakin fall to the Dark Side and I'm not too sure as to whether the traditional EU interpretation of falling to the Dark Side should be taken too liberally...

[Noble Ire]

Where did you get the impression that Vapaad harness Dark side energies?

Both the novelization and Shatterpoint suggest this. In fact, one of the reasons Depa Bilba falls to the Dark Side isbecause she uses it and becomes more susceptable to dark influence.

[Darth Wong]

... apart from the ROTS novelisation which I haven't read ...

Shouldn't this give you a fucking clue?

[Dooey Jo]

You missed the point. Mace may have won the lightsaber fight, but that was obviously not enough for him to win. Dramatic license aside, Palpatine must have felt that Mace wasn't ready to strike yet when they stopped for a pose and a chat. Do you really think Palpy would have waited with the force lightning if Mace was about to strike immediately?

Who knows what he would have done. He'd most likely die if Windu were to strike immediately. That might have prevented Anakin's further fall though.

Did you miss the whole scene set up for Anakin to make the final choice between Mace and Palpatine, light or dark? Up until that moment his case was undetermined.

As I see it, he made that choice when he decided to go against what Windu told him and go to Palpatine's office.

But tell you what, if you want to go around and believe Mace could win by his own when Yoda couldn't, fine by me, this topic has gone on long enough already. I don't really care about it. I just think you are deluding yourself.

And why do you think this? That is what we quite clearly see happening on screen, is it not? I think you're thinking in terms of power levels, when it doesn't necessarily work that way. Windu > Palpatine and Palpatine > Yoda does not automatically mean that Windu > Yoda.

[nightmare]

As I see it, he made that choice when he decided to go against what Windu told him and go to Palpatine's office.

Well, I disagree. I don't think we can get much further than this on that point, however. Unless I can dig something up from the novel, but I'd rather drop the whole thing.

And why do you think this? That is what we quite clearly see happening on screen, is it not? I think you're thinking in terms of power levels, when it doesn't necessarily work that way. Windu > Palpatine and Palpatine > Yoda does not automatically mean that Windu > Yoda.

I'm not thinking purely in terms of "power levels". If that was the case, Mace wouldn't have had a prayer from start. I'm saying that his lightsaber skills were enough to best Palpatine in a lightsaber duel. I'm also saying that this wasn't enough for him to win (obviously). But it could have been enough if he had made an immediate strike - Palpy might not have had time to fry Mace then, although we can't be sure of it. To clarify, I think Mace had a small chance but blew it.

Mace didn't strike at once however, so it's moot. Palpy had all the time in the world to fry Mace. He probably thought the first lightning was enough to drop Mace, but his darkside-close vaapad style made it easier for Mace to resist; however, Palpatine had more and stronger left. He pleaded to Anakin while looking like he was on his last straw, then right after Anakin had chopped Mace, he gave Mace a final fry which proved too much. Clearly he wasn't at all on his last strenght when pleading for help.

Also, I know it's iffy to claim that the one he fired off at Yoda was a lot more powerful just based on the kinetic effect, but it sure looked like it.

This is my take on it; you don't have to agree. I just suggest we drop the subject for now. It's been debated elsewhere although I wasn't in it.

[Dooey Jo]

Well, I disagree. I don't think we can get much further than this on that point, however. Unless I can dig something up from the novel, but I'd rather drop the whole thing.

Allright.

I'm not thinking purely in terms of "power levels". If that was the case, Mace wouldn't have had a prayer from start. I'm saying that his lightsaber skills were enough to best Palpatine in a lightsaber duel. I'm also saying that this wasn't enough for him to win (obviously). But it could have been enough if he had made an immediate strike - Palpy might not have had time to fry Mace then, although we can't be sure of it. To clarify, I think Mace had a small chance but blew it.

Well that's what I think too. He blew it by trying to be bad-ass

*snip*

This is my take on it; you don't have to agree. I just suggest we drop the subject for now. It's been debated elsewhere although I wasn't in it.

Okay, that's fine by me, and I agree he was faking being weak when Mace had him on the ground, redirecting his own lightning back at him. One thing though; Yoda is pretty small, so the momentum of the lightning would affect him more than it would a human. (He could be very dense though, but Luke is able to carry him around fairly easily in ESB)

[PainRack]

Both the novelization and Shatterpoint suggest this. In fact, one of the reasons Depa Bilba falls to the Dark Side isbecause she uses it and becomes more susceptable to dark influence.

Except that was never flatout asserted in the novel. We are never told why Depa fell to the Dark Side. Mace Windu himself said it best. Vaapaad is dangerous, because in order to use it, you have to "love to fight". That's where the danger of the Dark Side comes in, because Mace has to allow his passion, and not just passion, but passion of violence to flow into him and fight.

... apart from the ROTS novelisation which I haven't read ...

Shouldn't this give you a fucking clue?

Then ahem... I await the relevent quote.

[montypython]

It would be good to have Lucas's own thoughts on the matter of the duels, if available.

[Oskuro]

So, I went back to see the movie yesterday (In english, rather than the disgusting Spanish dub). I tried to analyze the duels more closely, and here are my personal takes on them...


a) The Arrest Scene: Firstly, the three (3) Jedi that went in with Mace were not only caught off guard, but also had trouble reacting because they were so close to each other. Palpatine rushed the bunch of them in a tight space. It is worthy of note that the Green-Dreadlock Jedi actually manages to make a couple desperate blocks, but seems overwhelmed by Palpatine's advance, probably because he had no space to retreat (Maybe Mace was behind him).
Now, after the intial shock, Mace becomes more confident, although Palpatine performs some intimidating moves (like a "line" pose right into Mace's chest) proving he's no wimp. Did he trhow the fight? Doubtful. As it has been pointed out, Anakin had already chosen when he went to the office, so even if he arrived to a dead Windu, he would have gone into "What have I done" mode (for not killing Palpatine before, when he discovered he was a Sith, or for having sided with Palpatine).

My opinion? Well, to explain it, I must go into a side-subject first: Power Levels. I'm a little sick of this power level obsesion people has. This has been elaborated elswhere, but, basically, being a good fighter gives you an advantage, but does not make you invulnerable. Lucky shots, fumbles and the like will always happen, no matter how good you are. So enough with this "If A beats B, who in turn had beaten C, then A beats C".
I belive Windu beats Palpatine because he manages to disarm him. Simple as that. Palpatine does a bad move (Notice how many of duels in this movie, much like real life duels, end when a contendant does a bad move) and opens himself for a disarm.
I think he was truly scared at Windu when he recoiled back into the wall. I also belive that the Lightning attack was done because he felt things were slowing down, and he needed to turn up the heat so Anakin did something hasty. That, and his "I'm weak" discourse where clearly and act aimed at turning Anakin (By creating urgency, or else Mace would have talked Anakin into reason).
Also notice that Windu struggles to block Palpatine's lightning... Compared to how effortlessly ObiWan blocks Dooku's lightning, it says a lot about how powerful the lightning could be.

Oh and, on the power level thingie. Since Anakin places his saber in the path of Windu's wrist, then his power is greater than Windu's?

b) Disarms and Realism: A move I've noticed along the movie, and that was missing from the rest, are the "disarms", that is, when the blades lock, just slide your blade down towards your opponent's wrist, and chop it off. A very realistic move, worthy of applause (If you have enough hands left to applaud, that is )
Also, Palpatine (during the office scene), seems to be the only fighter more intent on hitting his opponent's body than his opponent's lightsaber, wich is, of course, moderately more realistic Although, we could rationalise that the Jedi are actually trying to lock the sabers to perform a disarm and as such capture rather than kill the opponent (This does nothing for Maul and Dooku, I'm afraid, although Dooku had still a lot of Jedi "honor" in him)

c) Yoda vs. Palpatine: Err, we do not see the whole fight (with all the cutting to Vader/Obi-Wan). I just have a question... How come Palpatine has jumped up and is throwing pods down at Yoda? Two ideas come to mind. Firstly, he might have lost his saber. And secondly (had he lost his saber or not), he wanted to put up as much space between him and Yoda as possible.
My conclussion: Yoda was wiping the floor with him. Notice how, when Yoda lands in Palpatine's pod, Palpatine does not whip out his saber to fight, but prefers to resort to Lightning.

And then, regarding who has greater mastery of the force... Palpatine's lightning catches Yoda off-balance and disarms him, but notice how Yoda manages to block the lightning by using the force, and, more importantly... The looks on their faces. Yoda makes a "I'm gonna mop up the floor with your ass" face, while Palpatine stops laughing, gets a "Oh shit!" face, and then a progresively more "He IS going to mop up the floor with my ass!" face. Pity Yoda did not get lucky and fell in the wrong direction.
Also notice the very same "Oh shit" face on Palpatine when Yoda returns the Pod.
My conclussion: Yoda was indeed better than Palpatine, even when faced with adverse conditions, and a worthy-of-mention bad luck.

Yoda also knew when to leave, unlike certain, overconfident, "I'm the bait of the world!" Emperor....


And don't give me no "Palpatine was playing weak before Yoda" crap. That was a fight to the death, with no room for pretense of any kind. Not that Palpatine needed to pretend, he was the Emperor already.

Hmmm, another humongous-post(tm)

[SVPD]

As to the whole "Power levels" thing, on page 207 of my hardcover ROTS novelization Anakin states:

"Is Master Windu turning everyone against me because until I came along he was the youngest Jedi ever named to the council?"

While I agree that the whole "power level measuring" thing is rather silly, it would seem to me that this speaks volumes about Mace's abilities.

[Brian Young]

I think the problem is that we are attempting to determine Jedi relative powers like we determine a starship's relative firepower. It isn't as cut and dry as that. It comes down to artist's intentions, which is not really measurable. The only things we know are:
*In the AOTC bonuses, at least 4 times it is noted that Windu is second to Yoda.
*Anakin misrepresents his own power, let alone everyone else.
*Obi-Wan is both wise and powerful, but neither as wise as Yoda, nor as powerful as Windu.
*Both of the fights were pretty even.
*Both Windu and Yoda disarmed Sidious. Windu onscreen, Yoda offscreen.
*The Yoda/Sidious fight involved much more than swordplay.
*Being the best, or better than the opponent, does not guarantee victory. Dooku beats OWK, Anakin beats Dooku, OWK beats Anakin.

Speculation follows:
*The statement made by Anakin in AOTC could as easily mean that he is as wise as Yoda, but as powerful as the next one down - Windu. Really, the only thing it means is that Anakin regards Windu, Yoda, and OWK in higher regard than the rest.
*I used to wonder if Palpatine threw the fight too, but after watching the movie again, it looks to me as if these three are pretty even, and all are way ahead of everyone else. Occam's Razor.
*Yoda is the only Jedi we've ever seen use Force-lightning, or block it without a lightsabre (even Windu needed his sabre). But skills with a lightsabre may reach a pinnacle, and all three are about there. Yoda is more powerful in the Force than Sidious in the film, but unable to win the fight. Yoda may be the most powerful in the Force *ever*, as implied by the novel (but that his method was obsolete against the "new Sith"), but still only at the pinnacle of lightsabre combat.

In summary, the only things that are really quantifiable is that Windu, Yoda, and Sidious are all three the best there is. Any of the three can beat any one else, and any fight between any of these three is very close.
Anything else is an argument of artist intentions. The intention, according to AOTC bonus features, is that Yoda is the top Jedi.

[Ted C]

Perhaps people are reading a bit too much into my question.

I consider Mace and Yoda to be very close in almost every category. Mace, being younger, probably does have less "wisdom" than Yoda, but "power" is theoretically more a function of "midichlorian count" than knowledge of the force. Of course, Yoda theoretically has the highest midichlorian count after Anakin, so that doesn't really build a case for Mace being the most "powerful" of the Jedi.

I think Anakin's statement is more a reflection of perception than reality. Anakin thinks of Yoda as very wise and Mace Windu as very powerful. He thinks of his master, Obi-Wan, as the equal of both, even though we have every reason to think he is neither.

Disarms and Realism: A move I've noticed along the movie, and that was missing from the rest, are the "disarms", that is, when the blades lock, just slide your blade down towards your opponent's wrist, and chop it off. A very realistic move, worthy of applause (If you have enough hands left to applaud, that is Laughing).
Also, Palpatine (during the office scene), seems to be the only fighter more intent on hitting his opponent's body than his opponent's lightsaber, wich is, of course, moderately more realistic Rolling Eyes Although, we could rationalise that the Jedi are actually trying to lock the sabers to perform a disarm and as such capture rather than kill the opponent (This does nothing for Maul and Dooku, I'm afraid, although Dooku had still a lot of Jedi "honor" in him)

Count Dooku learned lightsabre fighting as a Jedi apprenticed to Yoda, so you would expect him to use the sort of "disarming" strategy that most other Jedi employ. Darth Maul didn't go for disarming; he stabbed Qui-Gonn Jinn through the belly.