Sith in the Post NJO??

Mikal768 · Post by **Mikal768** » 2005-07-25 09:15am

CaptainChewbacca wrote:The Sith temple Corran found was not near the Lusankya. IIRC he had to ride a mag-lev train or something to get there, though I have no idea why I think that.

As for force-sensitive Vong, that's not possible, given that the Vong cannot be perceived in the Force.

Technically they were stripped of the Force, ala Ulic-Qel Droma. As such, they may be able to reconnect with it, now they're back with their 'homeworld'.

Plus, Omini was able to use the Force, thanks to those yammosk cells he grafted to his brain, and could manipulate other Vong with his powers.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-07-25 10:23am

Mikal768 wrote:So.. basically they'd be doing what almost every Sith sect has done since the time of the first split in the Jedi Order. Hell, it's not really a sith tradition if it isn't redesigned every couple thousand years. lol

Except there were always a few Sith left over to carry on. This time when Sidious/Vader are killed at the end of RoTJ there is no one left with the knowledge to do that.

Mikal768 · Post by **Mikal768** » 2005-07-25 10:25am

Darth Fanboy wrote:
Mikal768 wrote:So.. basically they'd be doing what almost every Sith sect has done since the time of the first split in the Jedi Order. Hell, it's not really a sith tradition if it isn't redesigned every couple thousand years. lol
Except there were always a few Sith left over to carry on. This time when Sidious/Vader are killed at the end of RoTJ there is no one left with the knowledge to do that.

Technically, Lumiya. She WAS being trained by Vader as an apprentice, as shown in the EU.

Mikal768 · Post by **Mikal768** » 2005-07-25 10:26am

gah, ghetto addition: Granted, she won't have the long standing Sith traditions that Palpatine knew, but she does have a base to work on, not unlike what Luke had after Endor.

Admiral Felire · Post by **Admiral Felire** » 2005-07-25 06:17pm

It should be noted that Darth Bane at the time of the Battle of Ruussan was not a full Sith lord, rather he was just an apprentice. He too, at that time, did not have complete access to the secrets of the Sith. He learned them from Dark Side spirits and holocrons and guesswork and exploration. It could be the same exact thing with Lumiya. In a few thousand years of the Star Wars universe they would probably count her as a Sith despite the fact that she wasn't fully trained at the time of Palpatine and Vader's death.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-07-25 07:33pm

Admiral Felire wrote:It should be noted that Darth Bane at the time of the Battle of Ruussan was not a full Sith lord, rather he was just an apprentice. He too, at that time, did not have complete access to the secrets of the Sith. He learned them from Dark Side spirits and holocrons and guesswork and exploration.

And after several thousand years those spirits/holocrons don't seem to be around hardly at all in the RoTJ period. Although I admit to not reading "Empire's End" and thus I know jack about what was going on on Korriban then.

It could be the same exact thing with Lumiya. In a few thousand years of the Star Wars universe they would probably count her as a Sith despite the fact that she wasn't fully trained at the time of Palpatine and Vader's death.

But if she doesn't get access to the holocrons and 'spirits' you mention above, then she doesn't have what Bane did to restart things. Which means she will fail.

Admiral Felire · Post by **Admiral Felire** » 2005-07-25 07:40pm

But if she doesn't get access to the holocrons and 'spirits' you mention above, then she doesn't have what Bane did to restart things. Which means she will fail.

Yes, I agree. But the truth is that we really do not know if she has them. All this is speculation until she becomes visible in story.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-07-25 07:42pm

Admiral Felire wrote:
But if she doesn't get access to the holocrons and 'spirits' you mention above, then she doesn't have what Bane did to restart things. Which means she will fail.
Yes, I agree. But the truth is that we really do not know if she has them. All this is speculation until she becomes visible in story.

Where would she get them from? Palpatine had a Jedi Holocron or two but never are there any Sith Holocrons depicted after KOTOR for the most part, because once the Rule of Two is adopted it becomes sort of an oral/visual tradition that is passed from master to apprentice, in order to maintain Sith secrecy. Vader certainly didn't have much.

The fact that Lumiya is going to be used in an EU novel certainly makes me shudder, it cannot bode well.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-07-25 07:45pm

To cover my bases, the Sith Holocron depicted in Darth Maul: "Shadow Hunter" was not a holocron of teaching materials, but a recording implicating the Trade Federation in a plot against Naboo.

Admiral Felire · Post by **Admiral Felire** » 2005-07-25 07:47pm

Where would she get them from? Palpatine had a Jedi Holocron or two but never are there any Sith Holocrons depicted after KOTOR for the most part, because once the Rule of Two is adopted it becomes sort of an oral/visual tradition that is passed from master to apprentice, in order to maintain Sith secrecy. Vader certainly didn't have much.

The galaxy is a vast vast place. For all I know, there is a Sith Temple on some forsaken Wild Space or Outer Rim world. She could have taken some from Palpatine's personal stores, been granted them by Vader or just found it floating in space. Remember this is the EU and so it could be found anywhere. Of course this is all mere speculation and guesswork.

Plus, I don't think the Star Wars franchise is ready to completely remove the concept of Sith from the internal universe. I mean they are one of the icons of Star Wars, then and the Jedi. So it would make sense in business aspect for them to be kept.

The fact that Lumiya is going to be used in an EU novel certainly makes me shudder, it cannot bode well.

Personally, I like the fact that they have survived. They are somewhat different but so is the Jedi Order under Luke. I like the Sith and can't wait to read the books in which they are in.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-07-25 10:59pm

Admiral Felire wrote:The galaxy is a vast vast place. For all I know, there is a Sith Temple on some forsaken Wild Space or Outer Rim world. She could have taken some from Palpatine's personal stores, been granted them by Vader or just found it floating in space. Remember this is the EU and so it could be found anywhere. Of course this is all mere speculation and guesswork.

Speculation and guessowrk is great for trying to come up with ideas and I post a bit of that myself. but it does not work if you are trying to prove to me that there is going to be a new generation of Sith post NJO, Sith from the same School as the previous one that

Personally, I like the fact that they have survived. They are somewhat different but so is the Jedi Order under Luke. I like the Sith and can't wait to read the books in which they are in.

I like the Sith too, but the EU has handled post-Endor Dark Jedi very badly many times, unless it is handled at a level of quality that is above most of the EU authors capabilities then it will just be another "Dark Jedi of the Week" situation and it will be lousy. Hethrir, Dolph/Kueller, Irek Ismaren etc...

I also found the Marvel Star Wars comics to be lousy, the Nagai/Tofs storyline lousy and I have a hard time fitting that plotline into the canon timeline along with the Truce at Bakura and other events which unfolded shortly after Endor. Lumiya as a character I didn't like, hence my didain for her being in any upcoming novels.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2005-07-27 02:00am

Some of you keep using the phrase "completely trained". Palpatine wasn't even completely trained. yes he did say that Plaugeus taught him everything he knew, but he still didn't know how to do it all, just that it could be acomplished.

However, based on what I know, the Sith are no more. Even if someone found a Sith holocron and learned from it they would not be a Sith.

It's like Romans and Italians...
Romans died out, they were defeated, conquored whatever. Now you have Italians. They live in the same place, are from the same gene pool, look the same, but they are not and will never be Romans.

What the Star Wars universe need now is a replacement for the Sith. Some dark Jedi or whatever that just do evil shit. Like someone previous said the Sith don't have a monopoly on the Dark Side. Someone or some group had to make up the Jedi and Sith at some point. It can happen again.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-07-27 06:58pm

havokeff wrote:Some of you keep using the phrase "completely trained".

nitpick: looking through the posts it looks to me as if you are the only one who has used that particular phrase.

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2005-07-27 07:44pm

Some of you keep using the phrase "completely trained". Palpatine wasn't even completely trained. yes he did say that Plaugeus taught him everything he knew, but he still didn't know how to do it all, just that it could be acomplished.

As far as I know there is no canon confirmation of, nor any hard evidence to support, the theory that Palpatine was an apprentice of Darth Plaugeus. All we have is a guess made by Darth Wong, based on the fact that Palpatine smiled when he mentioned that Plaugeus was killed by his apprentice, and that the murder of Plaugeus could have roughly coincided with the time of Anakin's immaculate conception.

There is some strong evidence against this theory, when you consider that Palpatine later mentioned that the ability to create or preserve life that Plaugeus had posessed had been lost for a long time, and that while Palpatine was describing Plaugeus to Anakin in the theatre his tone of voice seemed to indicate that Plaugeus had not been around in many eons. I recall reading a similiar theory after Episode I came out speculating that Palpatine himself was Anakin's father, which seems equally unlikely. With all due respect to Darth Wong, who might still be right, he has been wrong in the past, and taking one of his theories as canon is, frankly, absurd (and based on what I've seen him write here, I'm sure he would agree with me).

In summary, I think it's foolhardy to assume that Palpatine was the apprentice of Darth Plageus when we have no official confirmation of the fact, just a theory.

Pcm979 · Post by **Pcm979** » 2005-07-27 07:48pm

Try the RotS novel.

Page 282 wrote:Darth Plaugeis was my Master.

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2005-07-27 08:03pm

Interesting. That really does have a marked effect on the plot.

It's unfortunate they left it out of the film, as it leaves those of us with no time to read the novelization up in the air in what would seem to be a critical plot element...

Pcm979 · Post by **Pcm979** » 2005-07-27 08:11pm

It was reportedly in early scripts but dropped for no appearent reason.

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2005-07-27 11:19pm

Well considering that having Darth Plageuis as Palpatine's master seems to make the plot almost excessively byzantine, perhaps they had a change of heart and dropped it.

However, the fact I would guess remains cannon, since the movie did not explicitly contradict it.

When I watch the film from now on I'll just have to pretend we didn't have this conversation, as I really prefered it the other way...